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Is the universe curved or flat?

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  Is the universe curved or flat? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-11 13:56 -0800
    Re: Is the universe curved or flat? Double-A <double-a3@hush.com> - 2015-12-11 14:02 -0800
      Re: Is the universe curved or flat? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 22:39 -0600
        Re: Is the universe curved or flat? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-11 21:38 -0800
          Re: Is the universe curved or flat? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-13 12:59 -0800
            Re: Is the universe curved or flat? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-13 15:05 -0600
              Re: Is the universe curved or flat? Jason Wyome <jasonw@hotmail.org> - 2015-12-13 21:52 +0000
              Re: Is the universe curved or flat? Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-12-13 22:54 +0100
              Re: Is the universe curved or flat? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 02:26 -0500
            Re: Is the universe curved or flat? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-13 18:40 -0800
              Re: Is the universe curved or flat? "Y.Porat" <y.y.porat@gmail.com> - 2015-12-19 08:19 -0800
            Re: Is the universe curved or flat? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-14 13:04 -0800
              Re: Is the universe curved or flat? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-15 14:24 -0800
                Re: Is the universe curved or flat? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-15 15:16 -0800
                  Re: Is the universe curved or flat? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-15 15:34 -0800
                    Re: Is the universe curved or flat? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-16 23:15 -0800
                    Re: Is the universe curved or flat? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-19 09:11 -0800
                      Re: Is the universe curved or flat? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-19 10:20 -0800
                        every thing being curved, less or more noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-12-19 15:29 -0800
                        Re: Is the universe curved or flat? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-25 08:48 -0800
                          Re: Is the universe curved or flat? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-27 23:03 -0800
                  Re: Is the universe curved or flat? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 18:59 -0600
                    Re: Is the universe curved or flat? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 16:20 -0800
                      Re: Is the universe curved or flat? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 18:44 -0600
                        Re: Is the universe curved or flat? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-16 17:43 -0800
                Re: Is the universe curved or flat? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 18:46 -0600
    Re: Is the universe curved or flat? David Staup <dstaup@charter.net> - 2015-12-11 16:34 -0600
    Re: Is the universe curved or flat? The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-12-11 15:16 -0800
    Re: Is the universe curved or flat? Mahipal <mahipal7638@gmail.com> - 2015-12-11 15:58 -0800
    Re: Is the universe curved or flat? gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-12-11 18:40 -0600
      Re: Is the universe curved or flat? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2015-12-12 17:37 +0100
    Re: Is the universe curved or flat? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 16:40 -0800
      Re: Is the universe curved or flat? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 19:06 -0600
        Re: Is the universe curved or flat? benj <none@gmail.com> - 2015-12-12 20:49 -0500
          Re: Is the universe curved or flat? gilber34 <fafa@invalid.com> - 2015-12-13 20:41 -0600
            Re: Is the universe curved or flat? noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-12-13 19:06 -0800
      Re: Is the universe curved or flat? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 17:43 -0800
        Re: Is the universe curved or flat? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-14 20:26 -0600
        Re: Is the universe curved or flat? Double-A <double-a3@hush.com> - 2015-12-15 14:20 -0800
          Re: Is the universe curved or flat? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-15 14:34 -0800
    Re: Is the universe curved or flat? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 13:17 -0800
      Re: Is the universe curved or flat? dobri karagorgov <dobrikarate.gov@gmail.com> - 2015-12-17 13:28 -0800
      Re: Is the universe curved or flat? "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2015-12-18 18:42 -0800
        Re: Is the universe curved or flat? noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-12-18 19:20 -0800
        Re: Is the universe curved or flat? Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2015-12-19 09:36 -0600
    Re: Is the universe curved or flat? Ezra Farrow <ezrafa@dubtechno.org> - 2015-12-20 20:02 +0000
      *ha*, what noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2015-12-21 13:53 -0800

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#538662 — Is the universe curved or flat?

if you say both, i'll shoot myself!

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#538666

On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 1:56:08 PM UTC-8, The Starmaker wrote:
> if you say both, i'll shoot myself!


Flat.

Double-A

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#538727

On 12/11/15 4:02 PM, Double-A wrote:
> On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 1:56:08 PM UTC-8, The Starmaker wrote:
>> if you say both, i'll shoot myself!
>
>
> Flat.
>
> Double-A
>


   Double-A is correct. WMAP nailed down the curvature of space to
   within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean.





-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

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#538736

Sam Wormley wrote:
> 
> On 12/11/15 4:02 PM, Double-A wrote:
> > On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 1:56:08 PM UTC-8, The Starmaker wrote:
> >> if you say both, i'll shoot myself!
> >
> >
> > Flat.
> >
> > Double-A
> >
> 
>    Double-A is correct. WMAP nailed down the curvature of space to
>    within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean.
> 


I don't understand what you are saying, is space curve or flat? It has to be either one or the other.


Is space curve or flat?

Is space 

A. curve

or

B. flat


Which is the correct answer? A or B?

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#538927

The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> Sam Wormley wrote:
> >
> > On 12/11/15 4:02 PM, Double-A wrote:
> > > On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 1:56:08 PM UTC-8, The Starmaker wrote:
> > >> if you say both, i'll shoot myself!
> > >
> > >
> > > Flat.
> > >
> > > Double-A
> > >
> >
> >    Double-A is correct. WMAP nailed down the curvature of space to
> >    within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean.
> >
> 
> I don't understand what you are saying, is space curve or flat? It has to be either one or the other.
> 
> Is space curve or flat?
> 
> Is space
> 
> A. curve
> 
> or
> 
> B. flat
> 
> Which is the correct answer? A or B?


Didn't Einstein say space is curved not flat???

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#538930

On 12/13/15 2:59 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Didn't Einstein say space is curved not flat???


   Einstein's general theory of relativity says that mass warps
   spacetime. Verified with many tests.

   On the cosmic scale, WMAP nailed down the curvature of space
   to within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean.

-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

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#538940

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Sam Wormley wrote:

> On 12/13/15 2:59 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
>> Didn't Einstein say space is curved not flat???
> 
>    Einstein's general theory of relativity says that mass warps
>    spacetime. Verified with many tests.
>    On the cosmic scale, WMAP nailed down the curvature of space to
>    within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean.

This scares me, since that number can only get smaller and smaller. Right 
after Big Bang took place, that must had been 100% curved. Hence also, at 
the time humans were created that number were say down to 60%. But still, 
imagine how much Relativity those people knew at that time. Much more than 
Einstein and the nowadays relativity promoters know.

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#538941

Użytkownik "Sam Wormley"  napisał w wiadomości grup 
dyskusyjnych:jK6dnT8RsYnjQPDLnZ2dnUU7-VGdnZ2d@giganews.com...


|   Einstein's general theory of relativity says that mass warps
|   spacetime. Verified with many tests.

And it says that going through a forest from your
point of view you're seeing you're stationary
and trees are runing around.
Verified by zilions of test.

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#539018

On 12/13/2015 04:05 PM, Sam Wormley wrote:
> On 12/13/15 2:59 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
>> Didn't Einstein say space is curved not flat???
>
>
>    Einstein's general theory of relativity says that mass warps
>    spacetime. Verified with many tests.
>
>    On the cosmic scale, WMAP nailed down the curvature of space
>    to within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean.

So genius. Here's an interesting Freshman problem for you. Given that 
"space" is observed to be 0.4% deviated from "flat", what is the 
smallest diameter of a hypersphere universe that can be found due to 
this measurement?

We'll wait right here for your answer.

-- 

       ___           ___           ___            ___
      /\  \         /\  \         /\__\          /\  \
     /::\  \       /::\  \       /::|  |         \:\  \
    /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
   /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
  /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
  \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
   \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
    \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

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#538966

The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> > Sam Wormley wrote:
> > >
> > > On 12/11/15 4:02 PM, Double-A wrote:
> > > > On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 1:56:08 PM UTC-8, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > >> if you say both, i'll shoot myself!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Flat.
> > > >
> > > > Double-A
> > > >
> > >
> > >    Double-A is correct. WMAP nailed down the curvature of space to
> > >    within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean.
> > >
> >
> > I don't understand what you are saying, is space curve or flat? It has to be either one or the other.
> >
> > Is space curve or flat?
> >
> > Is space
> >
> > A. curve
> >
> > or
> >
> > B. flat
> >
> > Which is the correct answer? A or B?
> 
> Didn't Einstein say space is curved not flat???


or is it everybody disagrees with Einstein?


I mean, Albert Einstein said: space is curved not flat.


Was he wrong?

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#540272

On Monday, December 14, 2015 at 4:40:12 AM UTC+2, The Starmaker wrote:
> The Starmaker wrote:
> > 
> > The Starmaker wrote:
> > >
> > > Sam Wormley wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 12/11/15 4:02 PM, Double-A wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 1:56:08 PM UTC-8, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > > >> if you say both, i'll shoot myself!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Flat.
> > > > >
> > > > > Double-A
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >    Double-A is correct. WMAP nailed down the curvature of space to
> > > >    within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I don't understand what you are saying, is space curve or flat? It has to be either one or the other.
> > >
> > > Is space curve or flat?
> > >
> > > Is space
> > >
> > > A. curve
> > >
> > > or
> > >
> > > B. flat
> > >
> > > Which is the correct answer? A or B?
> > 
> > Didn't Einstein say space is curved not flat???
> 
> 
> or is it everybody disagrees with Einstein?
> 
> 
> I mean, Albert Einstein said: space is curved not flat.
> 
> 
> Was he wrong?

======================
SR IS RIGHT 
!!GR IS 
childish nonsense 
see the other relevant threads 
Y.P
============================

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#539166

The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> > Sam Wormley wrote:
> > >
> > > On 12/11/15 4:02 PM, Double-A wrote:
> > > > On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 1:56:08 PM UTC-8, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > >> if you say both, i'll shoot myself!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Flat.
> > > >
> > > > Double-A
> > > >
> > >
> > >    Double-A is correct. WMAP nailed down the curvature of space to
> > >    within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean.
> > >


this wmac cmb jazz was created by a couple of radio DJ's...i don't trust those drug addicts.


there is no proof that the cmb was cause by a big bang. that's just...speculation.


it couldda been somthin else.

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#539474

The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> > The Starmaker wrote:
> > >
> > > Sam Wormley wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 12/11/15 4:02 PM, Double-A wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 1:56:08 PM UTC-8, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > > >> if you say both, i'll shoot myself!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Flat.
> > > > >
> > > > > Double-A
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >    Double-A is correct. WMAP nailed down the curvature of space to
> > > >    within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean.
> > > >
> 
> this wmac cmb jazz was created by a couple of radio DJ's...i don't trust those drug addicts.
> 
> there is no proof that the cmb was cause by a big bang. that's just...speculation.
> 
> it couldda been somthin else.


For example...

this thing called WMAP or CMB...

microwave background????

We are talking about 'radio dj's'!


The background is not 'microwave'...it's RADIO waves.


That's why there is no heat...it's music, not fire.


That stuff in the backgound is just a lot of noise.

You gotta ask yourself a question...
Why am I the only one
in the world bringing this up????


Radio waves, not microwaves.


You guys gotta go back to the drawing board and start all over again...



come back when you're ready.

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#539482

The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> > The Starmaker wrote:
> > >
> > > The Starmaker wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Sam Wormley wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On 12/11/15 4:02 PM, Double-A wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 1:56:08 PM UTC-8, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > > > >> if you say both, i'll shoot myself!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Flat.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Double-A
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >    Double-A is correct. WMAP nailed down the curvature of space to
> > > > >    within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean.
> > > > >
> >
> > this wmac cmb jazz was created by a couple of radio DJ's...i don't trust those drug addicts.
> >
> > there is no proof that the cmb was cause by a big bang. that's just...speculation.
> >
> > it couldda been somthin else.
> 
> For example...
> 
> this thing called WMAP or CMB...
> 
> microwave background????
> 
> We are talking about 'radio dj's'!
> 
> The background is not 'microwave'...it's RADIO waves.
> 
> That's why there is no heat...it's music, not fire.
> 
> That stuff in the backgound is just a lot of noise.


"While working on a new type of antenna at Bell Labs in Holmdel
Township, New Jersey, they found a source of noise in the atmosphere
that they could not explain."



Notice the word "noise"?  "noise in the atmosphere"...


noise


    1.
    a sound, especially one that is loud or unpleasant or that causes
disturbance. Like a big bang!



That music they are playing on the radio sounds like a lot of noise...


but if you smoke grass....it sounds like Pink Floyd music.

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#539484

The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> > The Starmaker wrote:
> > >
> > > The Starmaker wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The Starmaker wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Sam Wormley wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 12/11/15 4:02 PM, Double-A wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 1:56:08 PM UTC-8, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > > > > >> if you say both, i'll shoot myself!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Flat.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Double-A
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    Double-A is correct. WMAP nailed down the curvature of space to
> > > > > >    within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean.
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > this wmac cmb jazz was created by a couple of radio DJ's...i don't trust those drug addicts.
> > >
> > > there is no proof that the cmb was cause by a big bang. that's just...speculation.
> > >
> > > it couldda been somthin else.
> >
> > For example...
> >
> > this thing called WMAP or CMB...
> >
> > microwave background????
> >
> > We are talking about 'radio dj's'!
> >
> > The background is not 'microwave'...it's RADIO waves.
> >
> > That's why there is no heat...it's music, not fire.
> >
> > That stuff in the backgound is just a lot of noise.
> 
> "While working on a new type of antenna at Bell Labs in Holmdel
> Township, New Jersey, they found a source of noise in the atmosphere
> that they could not explain."
> 
> Notice the word "noise"?  "noise in the atmosphere"...
> 
> noise
> 
>     1.
>     a sound, especially one that is loud or unpleasant or that causes
> disturbance. Like a big bang!


In other words, somebody...took all the noise (radio waves is what it
really is) and changed it to 'microwave waves'.


Why? Who knows with 'these people' anymore? They fudge, they tweak, they
change the facts to fit the theory.

You guys are all a bunch of crooks if you ask me.



The Starmaker





go back to making blue boxes...

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#539772

The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> > The Starmaker wrote:
> > >
> > > The Starmaker wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The Starmaker wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The Starmaker wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sam Wormley wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 12/11/15 4:02 PM, Double-A wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, December 11, 2015 at 1:56:08 PM UTC-8, The Starmaker wrote:
> > > > > > > >> if you say both, i'll shoot myself!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Flat.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Double-A
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >    Double-A is correct. WMAP nailed down the curvature of space to
> > > > > > >    within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean.
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > this wmac cmb jazz was created by a couple of radio DJ's...i don't trust those drug addicts.
> > > >
> > > > there is no proof that the cmb was cause by a big bang. that's just...speculation.
> > > >
> > > > it couldda been somthin else.
> > >
> > > For example...
> > >
> > > this thing called WMAP or CMB...
> > >
> > > microwave background????
> > >
> > > We are talking about 'radio dj's'!
> > >
> > > The background is not 'microwave'...it's RADIO waves.
> > >
> > > That's why there is no heat...it's music, not fire.
> > >
> > > That stuff in the backgound is just a lot of noise.
> >
> > "While working on a new type of antenna at Bell Labs in Holmdel
> > Township, New Jersey, they found a source of noise in the atmosphere
> > that they could not explain."
> >
> > Notice the word "noise"?  "noise in the atmosphere"...
> >
> > noise
> >
> >     1.
> >     a sound, especially one that is loud or unpleasant or that causes
> > disturbance. Like a big bang!
> 
> In other words, somebody...took all the noise (radio waves is what it
> really is) and changed it to 'microwave waves'.



Now...just because there was a lot of noise in the universe...radio waves...
a big bang if you will...doesn't mean it was caused by an explosion.


What I mean is...picture it if you will...what else could cause
a lot of noise in the universe detected by those radio guys?

'They say'...by they i mean 'the scientific community', says only an explosion
could have caused all that racket/waves...

a big bang.

But there is something else they haven't thought of...

all that noise/raidowaves in the universe didn't have to be caused by an explosion...

just the opposite..

something very calm and silent could cause all that big bang noise radio waves in the universe...


something very calm and silent..

like the soft touch of a piano key...

or the gentle blow on the tuba.

a soft touch on a harp...

a blow of air on a trumpet
can make a ear pericing sound
yet it is caused by quiet air.


In other words, not a big bang explosion...
but a simple gentle air on the tuba.


The CMB is just the sound of music.

The Starmaker

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#540278

And people who come out with using the words 'curve and flat' in the same sentence are dumb:



"WMAP nailed down the curvature of space to
   within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean."




Who do you think you're fooling?



Let me put it this way...

there is no such thing in outer space as '"flat" Euclidean'.


God does not play with "flat" Euclidean.



A lot of girls got what appears to be a flat butt, but if you look closer...it's curved.

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#540282

The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> And people who come out with using the words 'curve and flat' in the same sentence are dumb:
> 
> "WMAP nailed down the curvature of space to
>    within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean."
> 
> Who do you think you're fooling?
> 
> Let me put it this way...
> 
> there is no such thing in outer space as '"flat" Euclidean'.
> 
> God does not play with "flat" Euclidean.
> 
> A lot of girls got what appears to be a flat butt, but if you look closer...it's curved.


Now I'll explain the center of the universe...


if you blow up a balloon
you will notice
the balloon has
two centers..

the center is
in the middle where
all the air is at..

and the center of
the surface where
you blew the balloon.


Now the earth has 
two centers..

the middle
of the earth...

and the center
on the surface
of the earth...

it might have 
sealed up by now...

so it might be hard to find..
(not that anybody is looking)


The Starmaker

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#540344 — every thing being curved, less or more

On Saturday, December 19, 2015 at 10:20:45 AM UTC-8, The Starmaker wrote:
the curvature is gaussian, in the sense that
it is primarily a local quality, although
aristarchus got the diameter within a few feet

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#541485

The Starmaker wrote:
> 
> The Starmaker wrote:
> >
> > And people who come out with using the words 'curve and flat' in the same sentence are dumb:
> >
> > "WMAP nailed down the curvature of space to
> >    within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean."
> >
> > Who do you think you're fooling?
> >
> > Let me put it this way...
> >
> > there is no such thing in outer space as '"flat" Euclidean'.
> >
> > God does not play with "flat" Euclidean.
> >
> > A lot of girls got what appears to be a flat butt, but if you look closer...it's curved.
> 
> Now I'll explain the center of the universe...
> 
> if you blow up a balloon
> you will notice
> the balloon has
> two centers..
> 
> the center is
> in the middle where
> all the air is at..
> 
> and the center of
> the surface where
> you blew the balloon.
> 
> Now the earth has
> two centers..
> 
> the middle
> of the earth...
> 
> and the center
> on the surface
> of the earth...
> 
> it might have
> sealed up by now...
> 
> so it might be hard to find..
> (not that anybody is looking)
> 
> The Starmaker


Or...

if you draw a circle..
whether you do it manually
or with a compass...

it has a beginning
and an end to the 
drawing of a circle...
that is the center.

Might be hard to
detect now in the
universe...with all
that mess up there..

hard to see...
hard to spot
hard to detect
hard to idenify
hard to recognize
hard to ..observe

but it's there.


The Starmaker

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