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When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos

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  When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:20 -0500
    Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 17:58 +0000
      Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos Fabian Russell <fb@zen.info> - 2016-04-06 22:53 +0000
        Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 23:22 +0000
          Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos Fabian Russell <fb@zen.info> - 2016-04-07 09:22 +0000
            Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:15 +0000
              Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos Fabian Russell <fb@zen.info> - 2016-04-07 22:48 +0000
                Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 23:19 +0000
                Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 19:19 -0500
                  Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 01:43 +0000
                  Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos Fabian Russell <fb@zen.info> - 2016-04-08 22:53 +0000
                    Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-04-09 17:22 +0000
    Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-06 16:55 -0500
    Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> - 2016-04-07 00:03 -0400
      Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 00:15 -0400
        Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 04:36 +0000
          Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 02:30 -0400
    Re: When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos Double-A <double-a3@hush.com> - 2016-04-07 12:44 -0700

#568328 — When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos

When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos
> http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/04/06/473238503/when-the-sun-brings-darkness-and-chaos


> Trying not to be very apocalyptic (but being so), a very big solar
> storm could disrupt the fabric of society as we know it: The danger
> exists and is palpable, says astrophysicist Marcelo Gleiser.


> In 1859, a gigantic solar storm produced a CME that hit us bad. It
> was the largest recorded event of this nature, the famous Carrington
> event. (Richard Carrington was one of the two British astronomers
> that first identified the flare and other disruptions in the solar
> surface, such as an abnormal number of solar spots.) Auroras were
> observed as far north as Australia and Tahiti, and as far south as
> Hawaii and even Colombia, close to the equator. Telegraph lines all
> over Europe and North America failed, and some telegraph operators
> got shocked. Telegraph pylons threw sparks. Fortunately, society
> didn't rely heavily on electricity at the time. If this were to
> happen today, the story would have been quite different. Estimates
> place the damage at $0.6-2.6 trillion in the U.S. alone. Apart from
> the ensuing social chaos, of course.
>
> When CMEs hit the outer fringes of the magnetic field that protects
> us (the same one that makes compasses work) they make it wobble.
> Wobbling magnetic fields kick electric particles around, causing
> electric currents in conductors. In 1859, the best conductors were
> the telegraph lines. Today, power grids cover the surface of the
> planet. The U.S. power grid runs at near capacity and wouldn't take
> the surcharge from the CME. The same with many others across the
> globe. If a Carrington-class or larger event were to hit,
> transformers would fail everywhere. Power at a global scale would be
> disrupted for weeks, months, possibly even longer.
>


   Still trebert would be able to sail in his sailboat... but forget the
   food and water part.


-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

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#568338

Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> wrote:
> When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos

Be afraid, be very afraid.

>> In 1859, a gigantic solar storm produced a CME that hit us bad.

Technology has advanced a bit since 1859, things like fast acting
circuit breakers.



-- 
Jim Pennino

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#568420

On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 17:58:40 +0000, jimp wrote:

> 
> Technology has advanced a bit since 1859, things like fast acting
> circuit breakers.
>

Then how do you explain the effects of Starfish Prime, which
was an upper atmospheric nuclear test conducted in 1962? 

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#568423

Fabian Russell <fb@zen.info> wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 17:58:40 +0000, jimp wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Technology has advanced a bit since 1859, things like fast acting
>> circuit breakers.
>>
> 
> Then how do you explain the effects of Starfish Prime, which
> was an upper atmospheric nuclear test conducted in 1962? 

Explain what about it?

An EMP from a nuclear explosion and a CME have different energy profiles
and technology has also advanced since 1962.

 

-- 
Jim Pennino

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#568517

On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 23:22:50 +0000, jimp wrote:

> 
> Explain what about it?
> 

It caused extensive damage to electrical networks and
systems in the Hawaiin Islands.

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#568669

Fabian Russell <fb@zen.info> wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 23:22:50 +0000, jimp wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Explain what about it?
>> 
> 
> It caused extensive damage to electrical networks and
> systems in the Hawaiin Islands.

So what?

Again an EMP has a different profile than a CME and technology has
advanced since 1962.

Note that is not saying that a large CME would not cause damage, but
is not likely to end civilization either.


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#568738

On Thu, 07 Apr 2016 20:15:04 +0000, jimp wrote:

> 
> Again an EMP has a different profile than a CME and technology has
> advanced since 1962.
> 

How regular is the profiles of a CME?  I would expect considerable
variation to the extent that a characteristic profile could not
be assigned.

Technology has changed -- for the worse.  In 1962 the vacuum tubes
that were in common use were far more robust than the integrated
semiconductors of today.

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#568748

Fabian Russell <fb@zen.info> wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Apr 2016 20:15:04 +0000, jimp wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Again an EMP has a different profile than a CME and technology has
>> advanced since 1962.
>> 
> 
> How regular is the profiles of a CME?  I would expect considerable
> variation to the extent that a characteristic profile could not
> be assigned.

An EMP is an impulse. I'll let you figure out why that makes a difference.
 
> Technology has changed -- for the worse.  In 1962 the vacuum tubes
> that were in common use were far more robust than the integrated
> semiconductors of today.

True, but you were talking about the power grid. TV sets are a different
problem.


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#568754

On 4/7/16 5:48 PM, Fabian Russell wrote:
> How regular is the profiles of a CME?  I would expect considerable
> variation to the extent that a characteristic profile could not
> be assigned.
>
> Technology has changed -- for the worse.  In 1962 the vacuum tubes
> that were in common use were far more robust than the integrated
> semiconductors of today.

   Modern electronics is used because it is orders of magnitude lower
   noise, more efficient and smaller that vacuum tubes. Get real.

   The CMB has be studied for sixty years and has been found to be
   extremely uniform, isotropic and the same temperature with
   temperature variations of 10 parts per million. The CMB most perfectly
   fits an ideal blackbody curve with a temperature of just over 2.7 K.



-- 

sci.physics is an unmoderated newsgroup dedicated
to the discussion of physics, news from the physics
community, and physics-related social issues.

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#568775

Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/7/16 5:48 PM, Fabian Russell wrote:
>> How regular is the profiles of a CME?  I would expect considerable
>> variation to the extent that a characteristic profile could not
>> be assigned.
>>
>> Technology has changed -- for the worse.  In 1962 the vacuum tubes
>> that were in common use were far more robust than the integrated
>> semiconductors of today.
> 
>   Modern electronics is used because it is orders of magnitude lower
>   noise, more efficient and smaller that vacuum tubes. Get real.

Nope, solid state electronics is not orders of magnitude lower noise than
tubes unless you are talking about cooling blower noise.

The real advantages are size, weight, lower power consumtion due to the
lack of a heated cathode, and the fact that only low voltage power
supplies are required for most applications.

>   The CMB has be studied for sixty years and has been found to be
>   extremely uniform, isotropic and the same temperature with
>   temperature variations of 10 parts per million. The CMB most perfectly
>   fits an ideal blackbody curve with a temperature of just over 2.7 K.
 
Which says nothing about the characteristic that is important, i.e. the
typical energy envelope.

Too bad you couldn't find something to copy... 

-- 
Jim Pennino

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#569099

On Thu, 07 Apr 2016 19:19:02 -0500, Sam Wormley wrote:

> 
>    Modern electronics is used because it is orders of magnitude lower
>    noise, more efficient and smaller that vacuum tubes. Get real.
> 

We are talking about the robustness of vacuum tube electronic
with respect to EMP.  The vacuum tube circuits of yesteryear
could withstand EMP much better than could today's semiconductor
based technology.

Get smart, Sammy.

>
>    The CMB has be studied for sixty years and has been found to be
>    extremely uniform, isotropic and the same temperature with
>    temperature variations of 10 parts per million. The CMB most perfectly
>    fits an ideal blackbody curve with a temperature of just over 2.7 K.
>

We aren't talking about the CMB spectrum.  We are referring to the energy
profile, which is something completely different.

Get smart, Sammy.

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#569240

Fabian Russell <fb@zen.info> writes:

>On Thu, 07 Apr 2016 19:19:02 -0500, Sam Wormley wrote:

>> 
>>    Modern electronics is used because it is orders of magnitude lower
>>    noise, more efficient and smaller that vacuum tubes. Get real.
>> 

>We are talking about the robustness of vacuum tube electronic
>with respect to EMP.  The vacuum tube circuits of yesteryear
>could withstand EMP much better than could today's semiconductor
>based technology.

>Get smart, Sammy.

The Soviets used vacuum tubes in their radios and other electronics in
their fighter jets and other war machinery for two reasons: 1) So an EMP
from a nuclear war wouldn't disable them; and 2) They didn't have that
much technology to produce semiconductors and the West wouldn't sell them
to them.

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#568408

On 4/6/2016 12:20 PM, Sam Wormley wrote:
> When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos
>> http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/04/06/473238503/when-the-sun-brings-darkness-and-chaos
>>
>
>
>> Trying not to be very apocalyptic (but being so), a very big solar
>> storm could disrupt the fabric of society as we know it: The danger
>> exists and is palpable, says astrophysicist Marcelo Gleiser.
>
>
>> In 1859, a gigantic solar storm produced a CME that hit us bad. It
>> was the largest recorded event of this nature, the famous Carrington
>> event. (Richard Carrington was one of the two British astronomers
>> that first identified the flare and other disruptions in the solar
>> surface, such as an abnormal number of solar spots.) Auroras were
>> observed as far north as Australia and Tahiti, and as far south as
>> Hawaii and even Colombia, close to the equator. Telegraph lines all
>> over Europe and North America failed, and some telegraph operators
>> got shocked. Telegraph pylons threw sparks. Fortunately, society
>> didn't rely heavily on electricity at the time. If this were to
>> happen today, the story would have been quite different.

1. there are no telegraph lines.

2. all powerlines are rotated in phase every few thousand feet so they 
do not pickup fields, nor radiate 60Hz all over the planet.



>>
>> When CMEs hit the outer fringes of the magnetic field that protects
>> us (the same one that makes compasses work) they make it wobble.
>> Wobbling magnetic fields kick electric particles around, causing
>> electric currents in conductors. In 1859, the best conductors were
>> the telegraph lines. Today, power grids cover the surface of the
>> planet. The U.S. power grid runs at near capacity and wouldn't take
>> the surcharge from the CME. The same with many others across the
>> globe. If a Carrington-class or larger event were to hit,
>> transformers would fail everywhere.

wrong.



>> Power at a global scale would be
>> disrupted for weeks, months, possibly even longer.

if it blew out transformers, you are SOL,  only a few factories, and 
they are backordered, it takes about 6 months to get one, if you ordered 
1000, it would take 3 or 4 years.





>    Still trebert would be able to sail in his sailboat... but forget the
>    food and water part.


trebert could use candles to light his way

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#568463

On Wed, 6 Apr 2016 12:20:31 -0500, Sam Wormley wrote:

>When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos

Why is this subject line from our resident optimist not surprising?

<http://notrickszone.com/2013/10/31/green-psychologists-confirm-climate-alarmists-are-making-themselves-mentally-sick-doomer-depression/>

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#568465

On 04/07/2016 12:03 AM, Wally W. wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Apr 2016 12:20:31 -0500, Sam Wormley wrote:
>
>> When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos
>
> Why is this subject line from our resident optimist not surprising?
>
> <http://notrickszone.com/2013/10/31/green-psychologists-confirm-climate-alarmists-are-making-themselves-mentally-sick-doomer-depression/>

There is little doubt that HVAC, Wormley and Odd are strong believers in 
"climate change". And this certainly explains their kooky fantasies. 
HVAC about having ESP and seeing ghosts, Wormley about being flooded out 
in Iowa and Odd over believing that finding a quarter in the grass makes 
you a scientist.

-- 

       ___           ___           ___            ___
      /\  \         /\  \         /\__\          /\  \
     /::\  \       /::\  \       /::|  |         \:\  \
    /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
   /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
  /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
  \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
   \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
    \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

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#568471

benj <none@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 04/07/2016 12:03 AM, Wally W. wrote:
>> On Wed, 6 Apr 2016 12:20:31 -0500, Sam Wormley wrote:
>>
>>> When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos
>>
>> Why is this subject line from our resident optimist not surprising?
>>
>> <http://notrickszone.com/2013/10/31/green-psychologists-confirm-climate-alarmists-are-making-themselves-mentally-sick-doomer-depression/>
> 
> There is little doubt that HVAC, Wormley and Odd are strong believers in 
> "climate change". And this certainly explains their kooky fantasies. 
> HVAC about having ESP and seeing ghosts, Wormley about being flooded out 
> in Iowa and Odd over believing that finding a quarter in the grass makes 
> you a scientist.

Iowa was once the bottom of an ocean.

The climate has always been changing.


-- 
Jim Pennino

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#568485

On 04/07/2016 12:36 AM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
> benj <none@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 04/07/2016 12:03 AM, Wally W. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 6 Apr 2016 12:20:31 -0500, Sam Wormley wrote:
>>>
>>>> When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos
>>>
>>> Why is this subject line from our resident optimist not surprising?
>>>
>>> <http://notrickszone.com/2013/10/31/green-psychologists-confirm-climate-alarmists-are-making-themselves-mentally-sick-doomer-depression/>
>>
>> There is little doubt that HVAC, Wormley and Odd are strong believers in
>> "climate change". And this certainly explains their kooky fantasies.
>> HVAC about having ESP and seeing ghosts, Wormley about being flooded out
>> in Iowa and Odd over believing that finding a quarter in the grass makes
>> you a scientist.
>
> Iowa was once the bottom of an ocean.
>
> The climate has always been changing.

That's why Sam wants a big tax to STOP the change!

The ONE thing that all science agrees is true and Sam wants to try to 
stop it!



-- 

       ___           ___           ___            ___
      /\  \         /\  \         /\__\          /\  \
     /::\  \       /::\  \       /::|  |         \:\  \
    /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:|:|  |     ___ /::\__\
   /::\~\:\__\   /::\~\:\  \   /:/|:|  |__  /\  /:/\/__/
  /:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/  /
  \:\~\:\/:/  / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/  /  \::/  /
   \:\ \::/  /   \:\ \:\__\       |:/:/  /    \/__/
    \:\/:/  /     \:\ \/__/       |::/  /
     \::/__/       \:\__\         /:/  /
      ~~            \/__/         \/__/

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#568652

On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 10:20:34 AM UTC-7, Sam Wormley wrote:
> When The Sun Brings Darkness And Chaos
> > http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/04/06/473238503/when-the-sun-brings-darkness-and-chaos
> 
> 
> > Trying not to be very apocalyptic (but being so), a very big solar
> > storm could disrupt the fabric of society as we know it: The danger
> > exists and is palpable, says astrophysicist Marcelo Gleiser.
> 
> 
> > In 1859, a gigantic solar storm produced a CME that hit us bad. It
> > was the largest recorded event of this nature, the famous Carrington
> > event. (Richard Carrington was one of the two British astronomers
> > that first identified the flare and other disruptions in the solar
> > surface, such as an abnormal number of solar spots.) Auroras were
> > observed as far north as Australia and Tahiti, and as far south as
> > Hawaii and even Colombia, close to the equator. Telegraph lines all
> > over Europe and North America failed, and some telegraph operators
> > got shocked. Telegraph pylons threw sparks. Fortunately, society
> > didn't rely heavily on electricity at the time. If this were to
> > happen today, the story would have been quite different. Estimates
> > place the damage at $0.6-2.6 trillion in the U.S. alone. Apart from
> > the ensuing social chaos, of course.
> >
> > When CMEs hit the outer fringes of the magnetic field that protects
> > us (the same one that makes compasses work) they make it wobble.
> > Wobbling magnetic fields kick electric particles around, causing
> > electric currents in conductors. In 1859, the best conductors were
> > the telegraph lines. Today, power grids cover the surface of the
> > planet. The U.S. power grid runs at near capacity and wouldn't take
> > the surcharge from the CME. The same with many others across the
> > globe. If a Carrington-class or larger event were to hit,
> > transformers would fail everywhere. Power at a global scale would be
> > disrupted for weeks, months, possibly even longer.
> >
> 
> 
>    Still trebert would be able to sail in his sailboat... but forget the
>    food and water part.


Well we know something will happen sooner or later to terminate mankind's role as a dominant species.  Mass die offs have happened to dominate species over the eons.  

Double-A

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