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Groups > sci.physics > #567701 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-04-03 12:52 -0400 |
| Last post | 2016-04-12 18:24 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 253 — 15 participants |
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-03 12:52 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-03 17:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-04 15:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-04 18:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Double-A <double-a3@hush.com> - 2016-04-04 12:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 12:58 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> - 2016-04-05 03:50 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 16:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-05 18:47 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 00:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-04-07 06:10 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 18:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-08 14:23 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 09:57 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 10:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 00:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-05 22:14 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:38 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 00:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-04-07 06:24 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 19:53 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 23:06 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 19:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 13:04 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 21:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 00:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 17:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 21:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-09 13:55 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 10:08 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:19 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 22:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 04:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 12:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 14:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 08:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 16:40 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-11 19:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 21:25 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:10 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:40 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:11 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 00:01 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Womack <twomack@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-04-09 09:21 +0100
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 15:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 09:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 14:22 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 10:45 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 19:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:41 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 12:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 10:09 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:31 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:42 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 15:55 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 14:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:19 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:47 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 18:17 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 00:37 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 16:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:41 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-05 17:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 15:09 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-05 18:54 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 19:57 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 15:43 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 20:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 16:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 23:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 19:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 03:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 22:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 06:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 12:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 00:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:45 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:12 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 04:43 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 22:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 17:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 04:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 23:31 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 01:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:18 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 22:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:19 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:57 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:44 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 20:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 23:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 04:42 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 16:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:43 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 01:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:19 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 23:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 05:49 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:10 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 21:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:27 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:27 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-07 21:40 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 15:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 19:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 21:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 17:37 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 08:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 17:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 17:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 05:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:43 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Rick Jones <rick.jones2@hpe.com> - 2016-04-11 18:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:12 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:24 +0000
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| From | Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 00:01 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <dmrk5jFr996U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #569095 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>On top of that, the space cadet likely believes that sane people, including >>>female sane people, would want to migrate to one. ... >>>Most everyone that was foolish enough to go would screaming to get off >>>the lifeless, airless rock before very long. The gays and the anti-social >>>types might stay. >>> >> >> So you'd stay, then. > >I would never go to such a place. > >FYI I was offered, and turned down, a stint at the DEW line for huge >bucks way back when, and that was for less than two years, including >travel time. I was offered big bucks to work as the in-house computer geek for a minesite in the islands halfway to the North Pole from North America. I accepted the job, then the job disappeared in a re-org. For complex reasons I couldn't get back to my original job. The job was "permanent" but I was thinking of it as a two-to-three year run. But, a two to three year run at a mine is closer to a "research station" than to a "colony" in the context of this argument. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_mine -- We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
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| From | Thomas Womack <twomack@chiark.greenend.org.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 09:21 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <03h*B7IWv@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> |
| In reply to | #569020 |
In article <vj9ltc-hu6.ln1@mail.specsol.com>, <jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote: >Could you offer Martian colonists high pay? > >Possibly, but what would they do with it? They'd do what people working for high pay in unfriendly environments have always done: they'll remit it to their family at home. You don't go out to build skyscrapers in Sharjah or care for entitled brats in Riyadh in order to spend money in Sharjah or Riyadh; you do it to get the money that builds your family a nice concrete house and sends your kids to university back in Kerala or Sumatra. Tom
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 18:24 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <50untc-2gf.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #569176 |
In sci.physics Thomas Womack <twomack@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote: > In article <vj9ltc-hu6.ln1@mail.specsol.com>, > <jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote: >>Could you offer Martian colonists high pay? >> >>Possibly, but what would they do with it? > > They'd do what people working for high pay in unfriendly environments > have always done: they'll remit it to their family at home. You don't > go out to build skyscrapers in Sharjah or care for entitled brats in > Riyadh in order to spend money in Sharjah or Riyadh; you do it to get > the money that builds your family a nice concrete house and sends your > kids to university back in Kerala or Sumatra. > > Tom Those are basically refugees, not colonists. Colonists take their families with them. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 15:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <neb89c$utl$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #568643 |
For your reference, records indicate that Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote: > Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb: > > > Colonies always need supply and support initially. Colonies off the > > Earth will be no different. > > The main problem I see for space coloies is the complexity of the > technology that is needed for survival, if spare parts cannot be > imported. > > Take a simple O-ring used as a seal as as an example. No, don’t! The entire problem here is that people are coming at the challenge from an Earth-based perspective. Yes, it is absolutely true that everything that comes from Earth is going to have Earth-optimized production and Earth-centric uses. But you need to immediately shift your thinking to the location you’re at, whether it’s the Moon or Mars or elsewhere, and begin thinking about what you can do with the r esources you have at hand. It might mean thinking up an entirely new solution to the problem than using something from Earth. > So, is there a way around this? You can try to restrict yourself > to the materials that you really, really need. This will mean > that your solutions will be much worse than what you could get on > Earth by just ordering the products you needed. I am not sure > that this will be easy given the harshness of your environment, > where your solutions should be good if you want to survive. This may be true. There must be some minimum mix of resources that allow a human-level colony to self-sustainingly survive on a world. We’ll find it by exploring the problem, not by dismissing it out of hand just because our thinking is limited by some “irreducible complexity” argument. -- "Also . . . I can kill you with my brain." River Tam, Trash, Firefly
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| From | HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 09:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <5b9a5eae-a939-45ee-8d16-87a892230df3@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #569234 |
Doctor Leery says No, don't! The entire problem here is that people are coming at the challenge from an Earth-based perspective. Yes, it is absolutely true that everything that comes from Earth is going to have Earth-optimized production and Earth-centric uses. But you need to immediately shift your thinking to the location you're at, whether it's the Moon or Mars or elsewhere, and begin thinking about what you can do with the r esources you have at hand. It might mean thinking up an entirely new solution to the problem than using something from Earth. -------------- I have an insight. Send machines, not people. If you want to send people, I need to know your motivation for doing so. All I have seen for reasons to go are to wave our dicks around. Note: "Because it's there" = Dick waving
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| From | benj <none@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 14:22 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <XLbOy.5877$kQ1.258@fx39.iad> |
| In reply to | #569235 |
On 04/09/2016 12:01 PM, HVAC wrote:
> Doctor Leery says
> No, don't! The entire problem here is that people are coming at the
> challenge from an Earth-based perspective. Yes, it is absolutely true
> that everything that comes from Earth is going to have Earth-optimized
> production and Earth-centric uses. But you need to immediately shift
> your thinking to the location you're at, whether it's the Moon or Mars
> or elsewhere, and begin thinking about what you can do with the r
> esources you have at hand. It might mean thinking up an entirely new
> solution to the problem than using something from Earth.
> --------------
>
> I have an insight. Send machines, not people.
>
> If you want to send people, I need to know your motivation for doing so. All I have seen for reasons to go are to wave our dicks around.
>
> Note:
> "Because it's there" = Dick waving
>
Well you are into dick-waving. I'd have thought you'd be FOR that!
--
___ ___ ___ ___
/\ \ /\ \ /\__\ /\ \
/::\ \ /::\ \ /::| | \:\ \
/:/\:\ \ /:/\:\ \ /:|:| | ___ /::\__\
/::\~\:\__\ /::\~\:\ \ /:/|:| |__ /\ /:/\/__/
/:/\:\ \:|__| /:/\:\ \:\__\ /:/ |:| /\__\ \:\/:/ /
\:\~\:\/:/ / \:\~\:\ \/__/ \/__|:|/:/ / \::/ /
\:\ \::/ / \:\ \:\__\ |:/:/ / \/__/
\:\/:/ / \:\ \/__/ |::/ /
\::/__/ \:\__\ /:/ /
~~ \/__/ \/__/
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 18:26 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <54untc-2gf.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #569235 |
HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> wrote: > Doctor Leery says > No, don't! The entire problem here is that people are coming at the > challenge from an Earth-based perspective. Yes, it is absolutely true > that everything that comes from Earth is going to have Earth-optimized > production and Earth-centric uses. But you need to immediately shift > your thinking to the location you're at, whether it's the Moon or Mars > or elsewhere, and begin thinking about what you can do with the r > esources you have at hand. It might mean thinking up an entirely new > solution to the problem than using something from Earth. > -------------- > > I have an insight. Send machines, not people. > > If you want to send people, I need to know your motivation for doing so. > All I have seen for reasons to go are to wave our dicks around. > > Note: > "Because it's there" = Dick waving Exactly, especially for the population that does not have a dick. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 10:45 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <jreigb97tokbpu7udr70c1be90j0bqaj6k@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569234 |
Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>For your reference, records indicate that
>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>
>> Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>
>> > Colonies always need supply and support initially. Colonies off the
>> > Earth will be no different.
>>
>> The main problem I see for space coloies is the complexity of the
>> technology that is needed for survival, if spare parts cannot be
>> imported.
>>
>> Take a simple O-ring used as a seal as as an example.
>
>No, don’t! The entire problem here is that people are coming at the
>challenge from an Earth-based perspective. Yes, it is absolutely true
>that everything that comes from Earth is going to have Earth-optimized
>production and Earth-centric uses. But you need to immediately shift
>your thinking to the location you’re at, whether it’s the Moon or Mars
>or elsewhere, and begin thinking about what you can do with the r
>esources you have at hand. It might mean thinking up an entirely new
>solution to the problem than using something from Earth.
>
Exactly. Most things will get done different in an off-world colony
than they are here. The best example of that is Chimp's insisting
that a colony needs a multi-hundred megawatt PWR with a river or lake
for cooling. You'd never go down the path to build such a thing
somewhere that you didn't have free flowing water. You'll solve the
'power problem' some other way. For example, start with
self-contained reactors of much smaller size (a few hundred thousand
kWe) that don't require rivers to cool. Keep adding those and
bootstrap to large solar arrays produced from in situ resources.
>> So, is there a way around this? You can try to restrict yourself
>> to the materials that you really, really need. This will mean
>> that your solutions will be much worse than what you could get on
>> Earth by just ordering the products you needed. I am not sure
>> that this will be easy given the harshness of your environment,
>> where your solutions should be good if you want to survive.
>
>This may be true. There must be some minimum mix of resources that allow
>a human-level colony to self-sustainingly survive on a world. We’ll find
>it by exploring the problem, not by dismissing it out of hand just because
>our thinking is limited by some “irreducible complexity” argument.
>
Look at Musk's "Mars Colony Transporter" plan. He's talking about 90
TONS of supply per colonist and eventually sending them in batches of
100 (9 cargo launches per colonist launch). He thinks he can run that
'break even' at $5 million per launch ($50 million for 100 colonists
and all their supplies). I think he's a little optimistic, but...
--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 19:08 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <0j0otc-2gf.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #569241 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: > >>For your reference, records indicate that >>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote: >> >>> Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb: >>> >>> > Colonies always need supply and support initially. Colonies off the >>> > Earth will be no different. >>> >>> The main problem I see for space coloies is the complexity of the >>> technology that is needed for survival, if spare parts cannot be >>> imported. >>> >>> Take a simple O-ring used as a seal as as an example. >> >>No, don?t! The entire problem here is that people are coming at the >>challenge from an Earth-based perspective. Yes, it is absolutely true >>that everything that comes from Earth is going to have Earth-optimized >>production and Earth-centric uses. But you need to immediately shift >>your thinking to the location you?re at, whether it?s the Moon or Mars >>or elsewhere, and begin thinking about what you can do with the r >>esources you have at hand. It might mean thinking up an entirely new >>solution to the problem than using something from Earth. >> > > Exactly. Most things will get done different in an off-world colony > than they are here. The best example of that is Chimp's insisting > that a colony needs a multi-hundred megawatt PWR with a river or lake > for cooling. You'd never go down the path to build such a thing > somewhere that you didn't have free flowing water. You'll solve the > 'power problem' some other way. For example, start with > self-contained reactors of much smaller size (a few hundred thousand > kWe) that don't require rivers to cool. Keep adding those and > bootstrap to large solar arrays produced from in situ resources. > >>> So, is there a way around this? You can try to restrict yourself >>> to the materials that you really, really need. This will mean >>> that your solutions will be much worse than what you could get on >>> Earth by just ordering the products you needed. I am not sure >>> that this will be easy given the harshness of your environment, >>> where your solutions should be good if you want to survive. >> >>This may be true. There must be some minimum mix of resources that allow >>a human-level colony to self-sustainingly survive on a world. We?ll find >>it by exploring the problem, not by dismissing it out of hand just because >>our thinking is limited by some ?irreducible complexity? argument. >> > > Look at Musk's "Mars Colony Transporter" plan. He's talking about 90 > TONS of supply per colonist and eventually sending them in batches of > 100 (9 cargo launches per colonist launch). He thinks he can run that > 'break even' at $5 million per launch ($50 million for 100 colonists > and all their supplies). I think he's a little optimistic, but... Now all he needs to do is find people without dicks that are willng to go. As $50 million is chump change to his net worth, why hasn't he started? -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 13:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <62pigb9g2vit51bq47lg1l9b43numtqpl0@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569266 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>
>>>For your reference, records indicate that
>>>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>>>
>>>> > Colonies always need supply and support initially. Colonies off the
>>>> > Earth will be no different.
>>>>
>>>> The main problem I see for space coloies is the complexity of the
>>>> technology that is needed for survival, if spare parts cannot be
>>>> imported.
>>>>
>>>> Take a simple O-ring used as a seal as as an example.
>>>
>>>No, don?t! The entire problem here is that people are coming at the
>>>challenge from an Earth-based perspective. Yes, it is absolutely true
>>>that everything that comes from Earth is going to have Earth-optimized
>>>production and Earth-centric uses. But you need to immediately shift
>>>your thinking to the location you?re at, whether it?s the Moon or Mars
>>>or elsewhere, and begin thinking about what you can do with the r
>>>esources you have at hand. It might mean thinking up an entirely new
>>>solution to the problem than using something from Earth.
>>>
>>
>> Exactly. Most things will get done different in an off-world colony
>> than they are here. The best example of that is Chimp's insisting
>> that a colony needs a multi-hundred megawatt PWR with a river or lake
>> for cooling. You'd never go down the path to build such a thing
>> somewhere that you didn't have free flowing water. You'll solve the
>> 'power problem' some other way. For example, start with
>> self-contained reactors of much smaller size (a few hundred thousand
>> kWe) that don't require rivers to cool. Keep adding those and
>> bootstrap to large solar arrays produced from in situ resources.
>>
>>>> So, is there a way around this? You can try to restrict yourself
>>>> to the materials that you really, really need. This will mean
>>>> that your solutions will be much worse than what you could get on
>>>> Earth by just ordering the products you needed. I am not sure
>>>> that this will be easy given the harshness of your environment,
>>>> where your solutions should be good if you want to survive.
>>>
>>>This may be true. There must be some minimum mix of resources that allow
>>>a human-level colony to self-sustainingly survive on a world. We?ll find
>>>it by exploring the problem, not by dismissing it out of hand just because
>>>our thinking is limited by some ?irreducible complexity? argument.
>>>
>>
>> Look at Musk's "Mars Colony Transporter" plan. He's talking about 90
>> TONS of supply per colonist and eventually sending them in batches of
>> 100 (9 cargo launches per colonist launch). He thinks he can run that
>> 'break even' at $5 million per launch ($50 million for 100 colonists
>> and all their supplies). I think he's a little optimistic, but...
>
>Now all he needs to do is find people without dicks that are willng to go.
>
Not that hard.
>
>As $50 million is chump change to his net worth, why hasn't he started?
>
He has. However, unlike you, he recognizes that there is no 'instant'
colony solution.
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 20:41 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <r06otc-q7g.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #569281 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: >>> >>>>For your reference, records indicate that >>>>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb: >>>>> >>>>> > Colonies always need supply and support initially. Colonies off the >>>>> > Earth will be no different. >>>>> >>>>> The main problem I see for space coloies is the complexity of the >>>>> technology that is needed for survival, if spare parts cannot be >>>>> imported. >>>>> >>>>> Take a simple O-ring used as a seal as as an example. >>>> >>>>No, don?t! The entire problem here is that people are coming at the >>>>challenge from an Earth-based perspective. Yes, it is absolutely true >>>>that everything that comes from Earth is going to have Earth-optimized >>>>production and Earth-centric uses. But you need to immediately shift >>>>your thinking to the location you?re at, whether it?s the Moon or Mars >>>>or elsewhere, and begin thinking about what you can do with the r >>>>esources you have at hand. It might mean thinking up an entirely new >>>>solution to the problem than using something from Earth. >>>> >>> >>> Exactly. Most things will get done different in an off-world colony >>> than they are here. The best example of that is Chimp's insisting >>> that a colony needs a multi-hundred megawatt PWR with a river or lake >>> for cooling. You'd never go down the path to build such a thing >>> somewhere that you didn't have free flowing water. You'll solve the >>> 'power problem' some other way. For example, start with >>> self-contained reactors of much smaller size (a few hundred thousand >>> kWe) that don't require rivers to cool. Keep adding those and >>> bootstrap to large solar arrays produced from in situ resources. >>> >>>>> So, is there a way around this? You can try to restrict yourself >>>>> to the materials that you really, really need. This will mean >>>>> that your solutions will be much worse than what you could get on >>>>> Earth by just ordering the products you needed. I am not sure >>>>> that this will be easy given the harshness of your environment, >>>>> where your solutions should be good if you want to survive. >>>> >>>>This may be true. There must be some minimum mix of resources that allow >>>>a human-level colony to self-sustainingly survive on a world. We?ll find >>>>it by exploring the problem, not by dismissing it out of hand just because >>>>our thinking is limited by some ?irreducible complexity? argument. >>>> >>> >>> Look at Musk's "Mars Colony Transporter" plan. He's talking about 90 >>> TONS of supply per colonist and eventually sending them in batches of >>> 100 (9 cargo launches per colonist launch). He thinks he can run that >>> 'break even' at $5 million per launch ($50 million for 100 colonists >>> and all their supplies). I think he's a little optimistic, but... >> >>Now all he needs to do is find people without dicks that are willng to go. >> > > Not that hard. I meant other than crack whores promised an endless supply of crack. You now, normal women that want families and kids and grandkids. Or maybe you don't know of such things. >> >>As $50 million is chump change to his net worth, why hasn't he started? >> > > He has. However, unlike you, he recognizes that there is no 'instant' > colony solution. So where is this space port, assembly line for the rockets, warehouses for the supplies and training facilities for the volunteers needed to get started? There is no development required for warehouses and training facilities so why isn't it started? -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-09 19:50 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <shfjgbpq6dp4dma6357k7gjokepeq1dn1k@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #569290 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>For your reference, records indicate that
>>>>>Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Fred J McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> schrieb:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Colonies always need supply and support initially. Colonies off the
>>>>>> > Earth will be no different.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The main problem I see for space coloies is the complexity of the
>>>>>> technology that is needed for survival, if spare parts cannot be
>>>>>> imported.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take a simple O-ring used as a seal as as an example.
>>>>>
>>>>>No, don?t! The entire problem here is that people are coming at the
>>>>>challenge from an Earth-based perspective. Yes, it is absolutely true
>>>>>that everything that comes from Earth is going to have Earth-optimized
>>>>>production and Earth-centric uses. But you need to immediately shift
>>>>>your thinking to the location you?re at, whether it?s the Moon or Mars
>>>>>or elsewhere, and begin thinking about what you can do with the r
>>>>>esources you have at hand. It might mean thinking up an entirely new
>>>>>solution to the problem than using something from Earth.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Exactly. Most things will get done different in an off-world colony
>>>> than they are here. The best example of that is Chimp's insisting
>>>> that a colony needs a multi-hundred megawatt PWR with a river or lake
>>>> for cooling. You'd never go down the path to build such a thing
>>>> somewhere that you didn't have free flowing water. You'll solve the
>>>> 'power problem' some other way. For example, start with
>>>> self-contained reactors of much smaller size (a few hundred thousand
>>>> kWe) that don't require rivers to cool. Keep adding those and
>>>> bootstrap to large solar arrays produced from in situ resources.
>>>>
>>>>>> So, is there a way around this? You can try to restrict yourself
>>>>>> to the materials that you really, really need. This will mean
>>>>>> that your solutions will be much worse than what you could get on
>>>>>> Earth by just ordering the products you needed. I am not sure
>>>>>> that this will be easy given the harshness of your environment,
>>>>>> where your solutions should be good if you want to survive.
>>>>>
>>>>>This may be true. There must be some minimum mix of resources that allow
>>>>>a human-level colony to self-sustainingly survive on a world. We?ll find
>>>>>it by exploring the problem, not by dismissing it out of hand just because
>>>>>our thinking is limited by some ?irreducible complexity? argument.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Look at Musk's "Mars Colony Transporter" plan. He's talking about 90
>>>> TONS of supply per colonist and eventually sending them in batches of
>>>> 100 (9 cargo launches per colonist launch). He thinks he can run that
>>>> 'break even' at $5 million per launch ($50 million for 100 colonists
>>>> and all their supplies). I think he's a little optimistic, but...
>>>
>>>Now all he needs to do is find people without dicks that are willng to go.
>>>
>>
>> Not that hard.
>
>I meant other than crack whores promised an endless supply of crack.
>
>You now, normal women that want families and kids and grandkids.
>
>Or maybe you don't know of such things.
>
Mars One had 200,000 volunteers for a one way trip. They've started
slimming that down to the final 100 and currently have it down to a
little over 1,000 - of whom 45% are women.
Sorry to cloud the issue with facts, chimp.
>>>
>>>As $50 million is chump change to his net worth, why hasn't he started?
>>>
>>
>> He has. However, unlike you, he recognizes that there is no 'instant'
>> colony solution.
>>
>
>So where is this space port, assembly line for the rockets, warehouses
>for the supplies and training facilities for the volunteers needed to get
>started?
>
Which part of "no 'instant' colony" is it that keeps eluding you,
chimp?
>
>There is no development required for warehouses and training facilities
>so why isn't it started?
>
Because there's no point to doing any of that until you finish
designing the vehicles and mission architecture, which is where they
currently are. Typical chimp plan to tie up resources and money in
facilities you won't need for ten years...
You make REALLY bad decisions, Jimp.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
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| From | Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-06 17:39 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ne3hkr$1b8$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #568068 |
For your reference, records indicate that jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century > technology to survive. Because that’s just the nature of how time works. In a future where humanity is looking to colonize planets around other stars, some yahoo like you will likely crawl out of the woodwork and say something like “No successful planetary colony in history required anything beyond 22nd Century technology to survive.” -- "Also . . . I can kill you with my brain." River Tam, Trash, Firefly
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-06 18:08 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <kuvftc-moi.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #568333 |
In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: > For your reference, records indicate that > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >> No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century >> technology to survive. > > Because thats just the nature of how time works. In a future where > humanity is looking to colonize planets around other stars, some yahoo > like you will likely crawl out of the woodwork and say something like > No successful planetary colony in history required anything beyond > 22nd Century technology to survive.” If Star Trek technology were available, then off Earth colonization would be possible, but Star Trek technology doesn't exist. And if Star Trek technology did exist, people wouldn't bother attempting to colonize airless, barren rocks. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-06 12:36 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <46pagbdg3baofl66npat8e49g7je5sihdo@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #568342 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>> For your reference, records indicate that
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>> No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
>>> technology to survive.
>>
>> Because thats just the nature of how time works. In a future where
>> humanity is looking to colonize planets around other stars, some yahoo
>> like you will likely crawl out of the woodwork and say something like
>> No successful planetary colony in history required anything beyond
>> 22nd Century technology to survive.”
>>
>
>If Star Trek technology were available, then off Earth colonization
>would be possible, but Star Trek technology doesn't exist.
>
And apparently neither does logic in your world. If magic existed,
then the colonization of North America would have been possible, but
magic doesn't exist.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 19:06 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <4nnitc-mir.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #568363 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: >>> For your reference, records indicate that >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>> No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century >>>> technology to survive. >>> >>> Because thats just the nature of how time works. In a future where >>> humanity is looking to colonize planets around other stars, some yahoo >>> like you will likely crawl out of the woodwork and say something like >>> No successful planetary colony in history required anything beyond >>> 22nd Century technology to survive.? >>> >> >>If Star Trek technology were available, then off Earth colonization >>would be possible, but Star Trek technology doesn't exist. >> > > And apparently neither does logic in your world. If magic existed, > then the colonization of North America would have been possible, but > magic doesn't exist. Non sequitur; you are grasping at straws trying to be insulting and ignoring the economics of doing anything off planet as well as the realities of what motivates people to colonize a new place. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 12:59 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <qvedgbldq0q0067t2g534j2pgf6sqv1uuf@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #568640 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>>> For your reference, records indicate that
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
>>>>> technology to survive.
>>>>
>>>> Because thats just the nature of how time works. In a future where
>>>> humanity is looking to colonize planets around other stars, some yahoo
>>>> like you will likely crawl out of the woodwork and say something like
>>>> No successful planetary colony in history required anything beyond
>>>> 22nd Century technology to survive.?
>>>>
>>>
>>>If Star Trek technology were available, then off Earth colonization
>>>would be possible, but Star Trek technology doesn't exist.
>>>
>>
>> And apparently neither does logic in your world. If magic existed,
>> then the colonization of North America would have been possible, but
>> magic doesn't exist.
>
>Non sequitur;
>
Glad you got my point, which was mocking your original remark as being
a non sequitur (and a violation of the rules of basic logic).
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 20:28 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <sfsitc-31s.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #568662 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: >>>>> For your reference, records indicate that >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century >>>>>> technology to survive. >>>>> >>>>> Because thats just the nature of how time works. In a future where >>>>> humanity is looking to colonize planets around other stars, some yahoo >>>>> like you will likely crawl out of the woodwork and say something like >>>>> No successful planetary colony in history required anything beyond >>>>> 22nd Century technology to survive.? >>>>> >>>> >>>>If Star Trek technology were available, then off Earth colonization >>>>would be possible, but Star Trek technology doesn't exist. >>>> >>> >>> And apparently neither does logic in your world. If magic existed, >>> then the colonization of North America would have been possible, but >>> magic doesn't exist. >> >>Non sequitur; >> > > Glad you got my point, which was mocking your original remark as being > a non sequitur (and a violation of the rules of basic logic). Don't you really mean I have gored your ox of space cadets hanging out in Martian bars? -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-07 23:52 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <95legb1k9mtlimkr17lqgjhnhvsrtkt7u5@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #568681 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>>>>> For your reference, records indicate that
>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century
>>>>>>> technology to survive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because thats just the nature of how time works. In a future where
>>>>>> humanity is looking to colonize planets around other stars, some yahoo
>>>>>> like you will likely crawl out of the woodwork and say something like
>>>>>> No successful planetary colony in history required anything beyond
>>>>>> 22nd Century technology to survive.?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>If Star Trek technology were available, then off Earth colonization
>>>>>would be possible, but Star Trek technology doesn't exist.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And apparently neither does logic in your world. If magic existed,
>>>> then the colonization of North America would have been possible, but
>>>> magic doesn't exist.
>>>
>>>Non sequitur;
>>>
>>
>> Glad you got my point, which was mocking your original remark as being
>> a non sequitur (and a violation of the rules of basic logic).
>>
>
>Don't you really mean I have gored your ox of space cadets hanging
>out in Martian bars?
>
No, I'm not responsible for your silly and ignorant delusions.
Take a logic course, Chimp. You're saying "If A then we could B" and
trying to parlay that into "We cannot B without A", which is a totally
different proposition and a basic logical fallacy.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-08 18:26 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rm9ltc-hu6.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #568825 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: >>>>>>> For your reference, records indicate that >>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No successful colony in history required anything beyond 10th Century >>>>>>>> technology to survive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Because thats just the nature of how time works. In a future where >>>>>>> humanity is looking to colonize planets around other stars, some yahoo >>>>>>> like you will likely crawl out of the woodwork and say something like >>>>>>> No successful planetary colony in history required anything beyond >>>>>>> 22nd Century technology to survive.? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>If Star Trek technology were available, then off Earth colonization >>>>>>would be possible, but Star Trek technology doesn't exist. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And apparently neither does logic in your world. If magic existed, >>>>> then the colonization of North America would have been possible, but >>>>> magic doesn't exist. >>>> >>>>Non sequitur; >>>> >>> >>> Glad you got my point, which was mocking your original remark as being >>> a non sequitur (and a violation of the rules of basic logic). >>> >> >>Don't you really mean I have gored your ox of space cadets hanging >>out in Martian bars? >> > > No, I'm not responsible for your silly and ignorant delusions. > > Take a logic course, Chimp. You're saying "If A then we could B" and > trying to parlay that into "We cannot B without A", which is a totally > different proposition and a basic logical fallacy. No, I am saying no one is going to pony up the many trillions of dollars required to even begin to build a real colony off the Earth. -- Jim Pennino
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