Re: Light Speed Limit

From	benj <benj.fake@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	sci.physics
Subject	Re: Light Speed Limit
Date	2018-08-20 14:50 -0400
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<plf2he$f8m$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(18 earlier) <pl9acr$j5p$2@gioia.aioe.org> <pla0a8$1muu$1@gioia.aioe.org> <d4c0c2d5-f2a7-47ec-83a0-e2362f7776bd@googlegroups.com> <plammn$liq$1@gioia.aioe.org> <e4a96cca-aa07-41f9-bad1-44ff858ed150@googlegroups.com>

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On 8/19/2018 11:39 PM, Edward Prochak wrote:
> On Saturday, August 18, 2018 at 11:03:55 PM UTC-4, benj wrote:
>> On 8/18/2018 7:47 PM, Edward Prochak wrote:
>>> On Saturday, August 18, 2018 at 4:41:48 PM UTC-4, benj wrote:
>>>> On 8/18/2018 10:27 AM, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>>> benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/17/2018 6:38 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>>>>> benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/17/2018 4:39 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>> benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/17/2018 12:41 PM, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Odd
>>>>>>>>>>>> “And if it isn’t presented like a comic book illustration
>>>>>>>>>>>> to John, the way he’d like it, then it is WRONG.
>>>>>>>>>>>> “
>>>>>>>>>>>> Present it ANY OTHER way
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The way that it’s in books is perfect for me and I’m a woodworker. Why
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn’t that work for you???
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and have it make sense.
>>>>>>>>>>>> You can’t because it’s mathematical smoke and mirrors.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mathematics is a language. You just have to learn it. Calling it smoke and
>>>>>>>>>>> mirrors to avoid that is just a pathetic excuse.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And English is a language. Where did you ever get the wacko idea that it
>>>>>>>>>> is not possible to translate from one language to another? Your ideas
>>>>>>>>>> are anti-intellectual babble. Suffice it to say, Odd, that even though I
>>>>>>>>>> am a shit mathematician I speak and understand the language of
>>>>>>>>>> mathematics FAR more fluently than you do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ah good. Then please demonstrate. Please translate Maxwell’s equations into
>>>>>>>>> language plain enough that John will acquire an accurate understanding of
>>>>>>>>> their physics content.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I’ll wait here for the delivery of what you assure is straightforward.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So if I tell you (oh barmaid and carpenter) that if one measures the
>>>>>>>> magnetic force one finds at every place on some surface in space (say
>>>>>>>> enclosing a magnet) then the sum total of those forces will always add
>>>>>>>> up to zero, you somehow think this is not straightforward?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This you believe represents the physics content of Maxwell’s equations?????
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And furthermore you believe that is the accurate statement that captures
>>>>>>> del*B = 0???
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you believe that the essence includes the rules of mathematics? This
>>>>>> shows just how far you are removed from science. Sure I can explain the
>>>>>> rules of math (what vectors are, what fields are, how one takes an
>>>>>> integral and so one, but that is mathematics. You asked for a
>>>>>> translation of the essence which I did.
>>>>>
>>>>> And you did it very badly. Want to dive in and see why?
>>>>>
>>>>> Let’s start with “measures the magnetic force” everywhere on a surface.
>>>>> Force on what?
>>>>
>>>> I take it you have never noticed that magnets produce a force on each
>>>> other. It's one of the basic facts of reality. "Badly" is your
>>>> understanding of science.
>>>
>>> Ah but you are showing how poorly the english translation works.
>>> Because to test it I still have to go back to the numbers and do
>>> summations. Show me have to do that clearly and efficiently
>>> in only english. Keep just three significant digits, Okay?
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>> Whoa! Do I feel the goalposts suddenly moving? You are cleverly trying
>> to "win" by attempting to change the question from CAN science be
>> modeled by languages other than mathematics, to WHICH language is most
>> efficient and compact for such descriptions. That is pretty dishonest on
>> your part.
> 
> Not really. Reading the equation it not presenting it in English,
> at least it is not conveying the nuances of the mathematics
>>
>> But also allow me to point out that even mathematics as a description is
>> in part a fraud, because the compactness occurs in part because various
>> terms and actions are pre-defined in other locations which is to say,
>> for example, math textbooks. If one were forced to work every
>> mathematical statement in a model backwards until the basic mathematical
>> axioms were reached, math would hardly be any more compact than English
>> as a description.
> 
> No, I am not asking for that. Both languages have dictionaries.
> but even with those dictionaries, doing even a simple summation
> will be extremely difficult.
> 
>>
>> You just want to play word games like Odd does.
> 
> BINGO! That's the point.
> 
>   In natural languages it is a lot easier to play those word games.
> (and you know that YOU play them too;)  It is not impossible
> to play equivalent games in math, but it is easier to identify
> errors both accidental and deliberate in math versus natural
> languages.
> 
> So, not changing goals, just trying to lead you to a correct
> conclusion. I think you may get the point.
> 
> Ed
> 
to compare a dictionary to a math textbook is wrong and irrelevant. I 
could just as easily invent an English math book that uses abbreviations 
and acronyms for various meanings and operations. Would work the same as 
math symbols. Symbols are irrelevant. Indeed I can easily translate 
mathematics to alpha-numberic characters. It might not make sense to you 
but that's only because as Odd likes to point out, you have not read the 
"textbook". But my computer would understand it perfectly.

Thread

Light Speed Limit casagiannoni@optonline.net - 2018-08-16 16:14 -0400
  Re: Light Speed Limit mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-08-16 13:33 -0700
  Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 15:12 -0700
    Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 19:47 -0400
      Re: Light Speed Limit casagiannoni@optonline.net - 2018-08-16 20:08 -0400
        Re: Light Speed Limit mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-08-16 17:15 -0700
          Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 20:32 -0400
            Re: Light Speed Limit mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-08-17 12:55 -0700
        Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-16 20:28 -0400
          Re: Light Speed Limit casagiannoni@optonline.net - 2018-08-17 08:00 -0400
            Re: Light Speed Limit john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 05:48 -0700
              Re: Light Speed Limit casagiannoni@optonline.net - 2018-08-17 10:42 -0400
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 15:27 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 08:37 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 15:47 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 09:03 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 16:41 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 14:19 -0400
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 20:39 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 18:29 -0400
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 22:38 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 08:57 -0400
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 14:27 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 16:41 -0400
                Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 16:47 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-18 21:24 -0500
                Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 20:27 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 14:40 -0400
                Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-21 15:09 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 23:03 -0400
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 18:26 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 14:00 -0400
                Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 20:39 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 14:50 -0400
                Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-21 15:24 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 01:20 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 18:33 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 18:26 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 12:14 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 20:47 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 14:33 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 21:45 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 16:28 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 23:50 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 05:27 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 14:29 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 20:48 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 22:07 -0400
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 18:26 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 14:09 -0400
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 19:50 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 18:06 -0400
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 22:22 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 22:45 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-08-20 17:54 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-20 21:03 -0500
                Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-21 15:28 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-23 06:19 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-08-18 16:48 -0500
                Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 16:21 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 13:32 -0400
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 20:26 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 18:20 -0400
                Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 15:52 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 21:59 -0400
            Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 13:21 -0400
          Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 10:27 -0700
            Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 18:16 -0400
              Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 16:39 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit "reber G=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 10:35 -0700
      Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 10:01 -0700
        Re: Light Speed Limit john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 10:16 -0700
        Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 13:59 -0400
          Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 16:12 -0700
            Re: Light Speed Limit john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 17:04 -0700
              Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-19 20:18 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-20 14:27 -0400
    Re: Light Speed Limit casagiannoni@optonline.net - 2018-08-16 19:50 -0400
      Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 00:59 +0000
        Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 06:36 -0400
        Re: Light Speed Limit casagiannoni@optonline.net - 2018-08-17 07:47 -0400
          Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 13:22 +0000
            Re: Light Speed Limit casagiannoni@optonline.net - 2018-08-17 10:27 -0400
              Re: Light Speed Limit john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 08:10 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 15:35 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 08:51 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 14:27 +0000
              Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 15:19 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 13:28 -0400
              Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 10:45 -0700
            Re: Light Speed Limit benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 13:27 -0400
      Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 10:18 -0700
        Re: Light Speed Limit casagiannoni@optonline.net - 2018-08-17 13:49 -0400
          Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 20:39 +0000
            Re: Light Speed Limit casagiannoni@optonline.net - 2018-08-17 16:47 -0400
              Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 20:58 +0000
                Re: Light Speed Limit john <johnsefton288@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 15:12 -0700
                Re: Light Speed Limit Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-08-17 22:33 +0000
          Re: Light Speed Limit Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-08-18 15:57 -0700

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