Re: Questions for Eisteinians

From	moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Newsgroups	sci.physics
Subject	Re: Questions for Eisteinians
Date	2016-05-24 14:32 +0000
Organization	The World : www.TheWorld.com : Since 1989
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kenseto <setoken@att.net> writes:

>On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 6:23:09 PM UTC-4, Michael Moroney wrote:
>> kenseto <setoken@att.net> writes:

>> >> But IRT is coming up with a possibility that is not suggested by the math.
>> 
>> >That's why SRT math is incomplete.
>> 
>> What, you think you can add unsupported ideas wiy-nilly to a theory, and 
>> that makes it more "complete"?  I just call it unsupported crap.

>Idiot....it is completely supported by observations. Clocks in relative 
>motion accumulate clock seconds at different rates. That means that there 
>is no reciprocity. Gee you are stupid.

No, it has NEVER been supported by observation.  You cannot name even one
time when a moving clock has been measured to run faster than the local
clock.

Meanwhile, the math shows that that will never happen.

>> >> This is because if A sees B moving at a velocity v, B will see A as moving
>> >> at a velocity of -v. 
>> 
>> >No.....A uses his clock to determine B is moving wrt him at Vab and B uses 
>> >his clock to determine A is moving at speed Vba.
>> 
>> Yes, and according to the symmetry of relativity, Vba = -Vab.  I just
>> wrote v and -v rather than Vab and Vba.

>No idiot....Vab and Vba have different values. Why? Because a clock second 
>on the A clock is worth 1/gamma second on the B clock. Gee you are stupid. 

That violates the first postulate of SR, that the laws of physics are the
same for every reference frame, so that cannot be part of SR.  
Additionally, if you claim IRT makes that claim, then that proves that SR
cannot possibly be a subset of IRT.

>> The concept of proper time means that A always sees A's clock run at the 
>> normal rate.  And B always sees B's clock run at its normal rate. This
>> is part of SR, the concept of proper time.

>Idiot.....this assumes that a clock second is a universal interval of 
>time...it is not.

All observers always see their own (co-moving) clock run at the normal rate.
No assumptions necessary.  This is the _definition_ of proper time.

>> >2.You assumed that each predicts the other clock runs slow by a factor of 
>> >1/gamma. This is wrong.
>> 
>> No, I just _showed_ that each sees the other's clock runs slow. Both A and B
>> come up with the same gamma, and each sees the same thing in the other.

>No idiot.....It is confirmed experimentally that A accumulates more clock 
>seconds than B between meetings.

No, it has not.  It has *NEVER* been shown that if A sees B's clock run
slow, then B sees A's clock run fast. Never.  (And again, remember A and B
are measuring different things when they observe B and A respectively)

> That means that their clock second are not 
>equal and that means that they have different gamma. Gee you are stupid. 

Since v^2 = (-v)^2, the gammas MUST be equal.

>> You may think it's a contradiction but it's not.  A and B are measuring
>> _different things_.  In one case, two readings of Clock A1 are compared 
>> first to Clock B1 and then to Clock B2.  In the other case, two readings of
>> Clock B1 are compared to Clock A1 and then to Clock A2. Two different 
>> things.

>There is no B2...only A1 and B1. SR math predicts that a second on the B1 
>clock is worth gamma second on the A1 clock. Therefore no reciprocity. 

You don't understand SR.  What happens when A measures B's time dilation, B
first synchronizes two clocks, B1 and B2 at the ends of a rod.  The rod
moves past A's clock A1 at velocity v.  When B1 meets A1, the times on both
clocks A1 and B1 are noted.  When B2 meets A1, the times on clocks A1 and B2
are noted.  The time difference on A1 (the two A1 times) are compared to the
times read from B1 and B2 and compared, and found to differ by a factor of
gamma.  If you bothered to learn about SR, you'd know this.

Now, A also had a second clock A2 that A previously synched with A1.
At the same time B was flying past A, B was also making observations.
When B1 flew past A1, B also noted the times on A1 and B1.  As the rod 
continued to move, B1 flew past A2.  B noted the times on B1 and A2.  Doing
the same math as A, B noted that A's clock ran slow by a factor of gamma.
Note what the second measurements are: A compared A1 to B2, while B compared
B1 to A2.  THEY DID NOT MEASURE THE SAME THING!

You really should learn SR some day, Ken.

Thread

Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-21 14:36 -0700
  Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 16:45 -0500
    Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-21 15:53 -0700
      Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 18:54 -0500
        Re: Questions for Eisteinians HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 17:22 -0700
        Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-22 05:51 -0700
          Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 08:06 -0500
        Re: Questions for Eisteinians Double-A <double-a3@hush.com> - 2016-05-22 13:42 -0700
          Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 17:55 -0500
      Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 11:18 -0500
  Re: Questions for Eisteinians "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-05-21 16:01 -0700
    Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-21 16:16 -0700
    Re: Questions for Eisteinians Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 08:25 +0200
      Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-22 06:45 -0700
    Re: Questions for Eisteinians Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 04:56 -0700
      Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-22 05:22 -0700
        Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 08:15 -0500
        Re: Questions for Eisteinians "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 15:39 -0700
          Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-23 07:34 -0700
            Re: Questions for Eisteinians Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 08:51 -0700
              Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-23 12:55 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 14:56 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 15:05 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-23 13:33 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-05-23 22:24 +0000
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-24 06:31 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 09:30 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-05-24 14:35 +0000
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 18:14 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-23 20:33 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 06:35 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-24 06:56 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 09:52 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-25 08:02 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 10:11 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 10:40 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-25 13:56 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 16:18 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 16:01 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 20:26 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-25 23:32 -0400
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 20:31 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-24 10:54 -0400
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 10:21 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-24 14:16 -0400
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 14:15 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 06:23 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-25 23:29 -0400
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians HVAC <mr.hvac@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 08:46 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-24 13:37 -0400
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-25 08:26 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 08:01 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-25 07:51 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 10:00 -0500
        Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 11:23 -0500
          Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-23 13:09 -0700
            Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 15:24 -0500
            Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 15:38 -0500
  Re: Questions for Eisteinians moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-05-22 01:30 +0000
    Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-22 06:11 -0700
      Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 08:19 -0500
        Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-22 06:49 -0700
          Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-22 11:27 -0500
          Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 11:29 -0500
      Re: Questions for Eisteinians moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-05-22 22:59 +0000
        Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-23 07:41 -0700
          Re: Questions for Eisteinians moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-05-23 17:49 +0000
            Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-23 13:20 -0700
              Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 15:26 -0500
              Re: Questions for Eisteinians moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-05-23 22:22 +0000
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-24 06:30 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-05-24 14:32 +0000
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 09:34 -0500
      Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 11:27 -0500
        Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-23 13:10 -0700
          Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 15:40 -0500
  Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 11:15 -0500
    Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-23 13:03 -0700
      Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 15:27 -0500
      Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-23 15:38 -0500
        Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-23 14:51 -0700
          Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 06:30 -0500
            Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-24 06:51 -0700
              Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 09:42 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-25 08:08 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 10:12 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 10:42 -0500
              Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 09:47 -0500
          Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 09:41 -0500
            Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-24 09:18 -0700
              Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 11:25 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-25 07:37 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 10:07 -0500
          Re: Questions for Eisteinians Mikkel Haaheim <mikkelhaaheim@gmail.com> - 2016-05-24 11:50 -0700
            Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-25 08:23 -0700
              Re: Questions for Eisteinians moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-05-25 16:50 +0000
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-25 13:58 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-05-25 21:39 +0000
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-25 17:11 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2016-05-26 02:53 +0000
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-26 09:42 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 11:51 -0500
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2016-05-26 09:32 -0700
                Re: Questions for Eisteinians Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 12:02 -0500
  Re: Questions for Eisteinians "reber g=emc^2" <herbertglazier0@gmail.com> - 2016-05-26 10:33 -0700
    Re: Questions for Eisteinians benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-05-26 14:15 -0400

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