Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > sci.physics > #688819

Re: Slaughtering concert goers.

Cross-posted to 4 groups.

Show all headers | View raw

!Jones <jones@fobahor.com> wrote:
> x-no-idiots: yes
> 
> On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 19:15:36 -0700, in talk.politics.guns Snit
> <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> 
>> You have been shown, and have no counter, for the fact that "bear arms" 
>> is used only in specific contexts... that do NOT include self defense.
>> 
>> The second amendment specifically mentions the militia and NO other context.
>> 
>> While there is some contention, from what we have seen the general view 
>> of scholars who look at the subject say the second amendment applied to 
>> state rights and not individual rights.
>> 
>> We know that many laws have existed since the founding of the country, 
>> including ones near or at the founding, which made it illegal to even 
>> have a loaded gun in your house or to do what we now call open carry. 
>> Some laws not only required tracking of who had guns but required 
>> training and other even loyalty oaths. NONE of these, as far as we know, 
>> were challenged on second amendment terms.
>> 
>> Even the Heller case, a 5:4 decision where judicial activism was used, 
>> specifically notes that there can be limits.
>> 
>> When faced with those facts you point to quotes from 
>> <https://www.nraila.org/articles/19990729/america-s-founding-fathers-on-the-2a>, 
>> do not even site your source, and deem the actual evidence to be "bullshit".
>> 
>> Um, OK.
> 
> I have found that the O.P. is unreliable in quoting.  A few years ago,
> he edited one of my postings making significant semantic changes and
> then replied to the edited version.  The least he could do is to write
> his own stuff.
> 
> The NRA's quotes are all taken completely out of context.  For
> example, here is an article I wrote on Federalist #46 (fed-46).  Now,
> fed-46 just isn't that long of a document and they really shouldn't
> take one sentence out of the middle.
> 
> **** Previously published material 
> 
> One reads the Federalist today to gain an insight into the motivations
> of the men most instrumental in drafting the Constitution and the Bill
> of Rights.  In the Federalist, the authors are arguing in favor of the
> ratification of the Constitution of 1787; the essays were written
> between the writing of the constitution and the first ten amendments
> primarily as the collaborative effort of James Madison and Alexander
> Hamilton.  Federalist 46 is important in that its author is discussing
> the militia explicitly as defined in article six of the United States
> Document of Confederation.  Federalist 35 had recently been published
> wherein Mr. Hamilton used the exact words: "well regulated militia".
> (When the Federalist was bound and published as a book, #35 was
> renumbered as #29.)
> 
> Dominating the debate was the locus of power.  Would this be with the
> states or the federal government?  Did the federal government have the
> power to levy taxes?  And, not least, would the armed forces be
> controlled by the states or by the federal government?  The latter is
> the topic of the second amendment.  No place in the discussion is the
> individual right to self defense even mentioned; no place is it ever
> suggested that "the people" have some right to rise up and overthrow
> the constitutional government... as if one would need constitutional
> authority to take up arms against the constitution!  The idea of
> "bearing arms" was never mentioned in any context except the militia.
> 
> For your reading pleasure, here is the full text of Federalist No. 46
> with some paragraph breaks added.
> 
> Federalist No. 46 (James Madison writing; published 1/ 29/1788)
> 
>               The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall
> of the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal
> government may previously accumulate a military force for the projects
> of ambition.  The reasonings contained in these papers must have been
> employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be necessary now to
> disprove the reality of this danger.  That the people and the States
> should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterrupted
> succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should,
> throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed
> plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the
> governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently
> behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials,
> until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear
> to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy,
> or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the
> sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism.
> 
>               Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be
> made.  Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the
> country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the
> federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that
> the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to
> repel the danger.  The highest number to which, according to the best
> computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not
> exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one
> twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms.  This proportion
> would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than
> twenty-five or thirty thousand men.
> 
>               To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near
> half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men
> chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and
> united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and
> confidence.  It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus
> circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular
> troops.  Those who are best acquainted with the last successful
> resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most
> inclined to deny the possibility of it.
> 
>               Besides the advantage of being armed, which the
> Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the
> existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are
> attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a
> barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than
> any which a simple government of any form can admit of.
> Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of
> Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear,
> the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.  And it is
> not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake
> off their yokes.
> 
>               But were the people to possess the additional advantages
> of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the
> national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed
> out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them
> and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance,
> that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily
> overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.  Let us not
> insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion,
> that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would
> be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power
> would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors.  
> 
>   *******************
> 
> Discussion:
> 
>> The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall
>> of the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal
>> government may previously accumulate a military force for the projects
>> of ambition.  The reasonings contained in these papers must have been
>> employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be necessary now to
>> disprove the reality of this danger.
> 
> This prefatory paragraph gives the reader no useful information;
> essentially, Mr. Madison is asserting that his following content is
> intuitively obvious.  In the writing of the time, this tactic was
> common.
> 
>> That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, 
>> elect an uninterrupted succession of men ready to betray both; that
>> the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically
>> pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment;
>> that the governments and the people of the States should silently and
>> patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials,
>> until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear
>> to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy,
>> or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the
>> sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism.
> 
> In this somewhat long sentence, Mr. Madison postulates the idea that
> it would take "an uninterrupted succession of men" to subvert the
> constitutional protections.  Basically, the author is arguing that he
> believes this could not possibly happen and that anyone who believes
> it could isn't a "genuine patriot" but, instead, is a person
> manifesting "the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the
> misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal".  Here, the reader
> learns exactly how Mr. Madison perceives what he terms "the military
> establishment"; in the next sentence, he will call it the "regular
> army"; elsewhere, he disparagingly refers to a "standing army".
> 
> The timeline here (1788) is that what was known as the "Philadelphia
> Mutiny" by regular soldiers mustering out of the army who marched on
> the capitol demanding their back pay would have been in Mr. Madison's
> recent memory; therein, Mr. Madison demanded that the governor of
> Pennsylvania call out the state militia to put them down and the
> governor did so.  Herein, the author is arguing for the ratification
> of the 1787 constitutional convention's product; the proposal and
> discussion of any "bill of rights" is still several years in the
> future.  The constitutional document in effect at the time of this
> writing was the Articles of Confederation, ratified in 1781; thus,
> when Mr. Madison will later speak of a "militia", he refers to the
> definition given in Article Six of this document which reads in part:
> "[Every] State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined
> militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and
> constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of filed
> pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp
> equipage."
> 
> One other important point that the contemporary reader should note is
> that the Articles of Confederation were superseded and augmented by
> the Constitution of 1787, but never repealed; therefore, the 1781
> definition of a militia remains in effect because the Constitution of
> 1787 never redefined that term.
> 
>> Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be
>> made.  Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the
>> country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the
>> federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that
>> the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to
>> repel the danger.
> 
> Here, Mr. Madison is clearly writing that the source of the threat, as
> he sees it, is a "regular army"; the "State governments" will control
> the militia as defined under article six of the Document of
> Confederation (1781).
> 
>> The highest number to which, according to the best
>> computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not
>> exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one
>> twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms.
> 
> "[According] to the best computation..." would be rendered today as:
> "Studies have shown...".  Well, studies have shown that any idea
> introduced by the phrase: "Studies have shown..." should be ignored.
> We do not know to whose "best computation" Mr. Madison refers...
> whatever.  An important point to note here is that this represents Mr.
> Madison's the first recorded use of the term: "to bear arms" and it is
> obviously used in a military context; further, the context is given
> previously in the same sentence.  "To bear arms" is and always has
> been a military term!
> 
>> This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than
>> twenty-five or thirty thousand men.
> 
> Yes, if Mr. Madison's 1:25 premise held, then thus would be the 1788
> numbers; it's probably not an unreasonable number.
> 
>> To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near
>> half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men
>> chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and
>> united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and
>> confidence.
> 
> This sentence is important because it represents Mr. Madison's first
> use of the term: "a militia".  Federalist #35 had been published in
> the prior weeks.  (Federalist #35 was renumbered to #29 when the
> documents were compiled and bound.)  In Fed. #35, Alexander Hamilton
> used the term: "Well regulated militia" as it was defined in Article
> Six of the Document of Confederation; Mr. Madison did not propose a
> redefinition.  The other important point is that this "militia" is
> "united and conducted by [state] governments".
> 
> Soon, Mr. Madison would become *very* aware of his error of faith in
> the militia when he would become the only sitting U.S. President to
> command troops in the field as he tried to hold the bridge at
> Bladensburg, MD and his vaunted militia panicked and ran, sight
> unseen, before the advancing English army; James Madison, the fourth
> president of the United States, was forced to run through the streets
> of Washington DC with the "debased subjects of arbitrary power" right
> behind him... the militia weren't defeated; they broke and ran before
> the enemy even came into sight; they were utterly humiliated.
> 
> So much for the militia.
> 
>> It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever
>> be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops.
> 
> Yeah, right!  History will not be kind.
> 
>> Those who are best acquainted with the last successful
>> resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most
>> inclined to deny the possibility of it.
> 
> Yeah, right again!
> 
>> Besides the advantage of being armed, which the
>> Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the
>> existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are
>> attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a
>> barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than
>> any which a simple government of any form can admit of.
> .
> Since Mr. Madison would later write the second amendment, this is the
> sentence most often cited by the apologists for guns; however, the
> author obviously speaks of the militia; specifically: "the existence
> of [state] governments, to which the people are attached, and by which
> the militia officers are appointed..."  Mr. Madison never uses the
> idea of armed citizens outside of the explicit context of the state
> militia.
> 
>> Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of
>> Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear,
>> the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.  And it is
>> not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake
>> off their yokes.
> 
> Any time James Madison wrote disparagingly of a "kingdom of Europe",
> he always meant England; that was the only country who could have
> possibly landed a military force on the American continent and who,
> twenty-six years later during his presidency, would do so with
> devastating effect as they marched unopposed into Washington DC,
> looted the White House, and burned the public buildings.
> 
>> But were the people to possess the additional advantages
>> of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the
>> national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed
>> out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them
>> and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance,
>> that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily
>> overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.
> 
> Here, the author's meaning is clear; the states control their
> respective militias: "[state] governments [...] who could collect the
> national will and direct the national force [...] officers appointed
> out of the militia, by [the state] governments, and attached both to
> them and to the militia..."  The author does *not* mean an armed mob.
> 
>> Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion,
>> that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would
>> be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power
>> would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors.
> 
> Again, Mr. Madison speaks of England; both Madison and Jefferson were
> much further aligned with France than with England; Alexander Hamilton
> (the author of Federalist 29) leaned toward the English perspective
> and never spoke of "the debased subjects of arbitrary power".
> 
> **********
> 
> Nations are like humans in that they rise, flourish, and,
> subsequently, die.  What usually happens when a democracy dies is that
> the country becomes ready for a dictator... then, one shows up and is
> hailed as a popular savior; in this case, a militia is most often used
> against a people instead of for them.  Contrary to popular myth,
> demagogues do *not* try to control the guns; they go after the media
> as purveyors of "fake news" first, taking control under the guise of
> disseminating the truth.
> 
> ****************
> 
> About two years later, Mr. Madison would write: "A well regulated
> Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..." and, for
> some unfathomable reason, many argue that the writer didn't really
> mean to say "A well regulated Militia..."; what he meant was a "well
> functioning" militia; like a clock that keeps good time[?]  Actually,
> he meant exactly what he wrote.  He meant the well regulated militia
> as opposed to a standing army.  This differentiation is thematic in
> the writings of James Madison until his traumatic experience in 1814.
> What the second amendment did was to codify local control of the
> militia.  After the US militia were thoroughly humiliated in the War
> of 1812, the United States moved to a standing army and the second
> amendment became an eighteenth century legislative artifact.
> 
> One reads the Federalist today to gain an insight into the motivations
> of the men most instrumental in drafting the Constitution and the Bill
> of Rights.  In the Federalist, the authors are arguing in favor of the
> ratification of the Constitution of 1787; the essays were written
> between the writing of the constitution and the first ten amendments
> primarily as the collaborative effort of James Madison and Alexander
> Hamilton.  Federalist 46 is important in that its author is discussing
> the militia explicitly as defined in article six of the United States
> Document of Confederation.  Federalist 35 had recently been published
> wherein Mr. Hamilton used the exact words: "well regulated militia".
> (When the Federalist was bound and published as a book, #35 was
> renumbered as #29.)
> 
> Dominating the debate was the locus of power.  Would this be with the
> states or the federal government?  Did the federal government have the
> power to levy taxes?  And, not least, would the armed forces be
> controlled by the states or by the federal government?  The latter is
> the topic of the second amendment.  No place in the discussion is the
> individual right to self defense even mentioned; no place is it ever
> suggested that "the people" have some right to rise up and overthrow
> the constitutional government... as if one would need constitutional
> authority to take up arms against the constitution!  The idea of
> "bearing arms" was never mentioned in any context except the militia.
> 
> For your reading pleasure, here is the full text of Federalist No. 46
> with some paragraph breaks added.
> 
> Federalist No. 46 (James Madison writing; published 1/ 29/1788)
> 
>               The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall
> of the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal
> government may previously accumulate a military force for the projects
> of ambition.  The reasonings contained in these papers must have been
> employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be necessary now to
> disprove the reality of this danger.  That the people and the States
> should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterrupted
> succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should,
> throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed
> plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the
> governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently
> behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials,
> until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear
> to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy,
> or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the
> sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism.
> 
>               Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be
> made.  Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the
> country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the
> federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that
> the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to
> repel the danger.  The highest number to which, according to the best
> computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not
> exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one
> twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms.  This proportion
> would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than
> twenty-five or thirty thousand men.
> 
>               To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near
> half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men
> chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and
> united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and
> confidence.  It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus
> circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular
> troops.  Those who are best acquainted with the last successful
> resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most
> inclined to deny the possibility of it.
> 
>               Besides the advantage of being armed, which the
> Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the
> existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are
> attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a
> barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than
> any which a simple government of any form can admit of.
> Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of
> Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear,
> the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.  And it is
> not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake
> off their yokes.
> 
>               But were the people to possess the additional advantages
> of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the
> national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed
> out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them
> and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance,
> that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily
> overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.  Let us not
> insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion,
> that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would
> be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power
> would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors.  
> 
>   *******************
> 
> Discussion:
> 
>> The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall
>> of the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal
>> government may previously accumulate a military force for the projects
>> of ambition.  The reasonings contained in these papers must have been
>> employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be necessary now to
>> disprove the reality of this danger.
> 
> This prefatory paragraph gives the reader no useful information;
> essentially, Mr. Madison is asserting that his following content is
> intuitively obvious.  In the writing of the time, this tactic was
> common.
> 
>> That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, 
>> elect an uninterrupted succession of men ready to betray both; that
>> the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically
>> pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment;
>> that the governments and the people of the States should silently and
>> patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials,
>> until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear
>> to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy,
>> or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the
>> sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism.
> 
> In this somewhat long sentence, Mr. Madison postulates the idea that
> it would take "an uninterrupted succession of men" to subvert the
> constitutional protections.  Basically, the author is arguing that he
> believes this could not possibly happen and that anyone who believes
> it could isn't a "genuine patriot" but, instead, is a person
> manifesting "the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the
> misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal".  Here, the reader
> learns exactly how Mr. Madison perceives what he terms "the military
> establishment"; in the next sentence, he will call it the "regular
> army"; elsewhere, he disparagingly refers to a "standing army".
> 
> The timeline here (1788) is that what was known as the "Philadelphia
> Mutiny" by regular soldiers mustering out of the army who marched on
> the capitol demanding their back pay would have been in Mr. Madison's
> recent memory; therein, Mr. Madison demanded that the governor of
> Pennsylvania call out the state militia to put them down and the
> governor did so.  Herein, the author is arguing for the ratification
> of the 1787 constitutional convention's product; the proposal and
> discussion of any "bill of rights" is still several years in the
> future.  The constitutional document in effect at the time of this
> writing was the Articles of Confederation, ratified in 1781; thus,
> when Mr. Madison will later speak of a "militia", he refers to the
> definition given in Article Six of this document which reads in part:
> "[Every] State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined
> militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and
> constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of filed
> pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp
> equipage."
> 
> One other important point that the contemporary reader should note is
> that the Articles of Confederation were superseded and augmented by
> the Constitution of 1787, but never repealed; therefore, the 1781
> definition of a militia remains in effect because the Constitution of
> 1787 never redefined that term.
> 
>> Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be
>> made.  Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the
>> country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the
>> federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that
>> the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to
>> repel the danger.
> 
> Here, Mr. Madison is clearly writing that the source of the threat, as
> he sees it, is a "regular army"; the "State governments" will control
> the militia as defined under article six of the Document of
> Confederation (1781).
> 
>> The highest number to which, according to the best
>> computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not
>> exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one
>> twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms.
> 
> "[According] to the best computation..." would be rendered today as:
> "Studies have shown...".  Well, studies have shown that any idea
> introduced by the phrase: "Studies have shown..." should be ignored.
> We do not know to whose "best computation" Mr. Madison refers...
> whatever.  An important point to note here is that this represents Mr.
> Madison's the first recorded use of the term: "to bear arms" and it is
> obviously used in a military context; further, the context is given
> previously in the same sentence.  "To bear arms" is and always has
> been a military term!
> 
>> This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than
>> twenty-five or thirty thousand men.
> 
> Yes, if Mr. Madison's 1:25 premise held, then thus would be the 1788
> numbers; it's probably not an unreasonable number.
> 
>> To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near
>> half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men
>> chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and
>> united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and
>> confidence.
> 
> This sentence is important because it represents Mr. Madison's first
> use of the term: "a militia".  Federalist #35 had been published in
> the prior weeks.  (Federalist #35 was renumbered to #29 when the
> documents were compiled and bound.)  In Fed. #35, Alexander Hamilton
> used the term: "Well regulated militia" as it was defined in Article
> Six of the Document of Confederation; Mr. Madison did not propose a
> redefinition.  The other important point is that this "militia" is
> "united and conducted by [state] governments".
> 
> Soon, Mr. Madison would become *very* aware of his error of faith in
> the militia when he would become the only sitting U.S. President to
> command troops in the field as he tried to hold the bridge at
> Bladensburg, MD and his vaunted militia panicked and ran, sight
> unseen, before the advancing English army; James Madison, the fourth
> president of the United States, was forced to run through the streets
> of Washington DC with the "debased subjects of arbitrary power" right
> behind him... the militia weren't defeated; they broke and ran before
> the enemy even came into sight; they were utterly humiliated.
> 
> So much for the militia.
> 
>> It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever
>> be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops.
> 
> Yeah, right!  History will not be kind.
> 
>> Those who are best acquainted with the last successful
>> resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most
>> inclined to deny the possibility of it.
> 
> Yeah, right again!
> 
>> Besides the advantage of being armed, which the
>> Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the
>> existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are
>> attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a
>> barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than
>> any which a simple government of any form can admit of.
> .
> Since Mr. Madison would later write the second amendment, this is the
> sentence most often cited by the apologists for guns; however, the
> author obviously speaks of the militia; specifically: "the existence
> of [state] governments, to which the people are attached, and by which
> the militia officers are appointed..."  Mr. Madison never uses the
> idea of armed citizens outside of the explicit context of the state
> militia.
> 
>> Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of
>> Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear,
>> the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.  And it is
>> not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake
>> off their yokes.
> 
> Any time James Madison wrote disparagingly of a "kingdom of Europe",
> he always meant England; that was the only country who could have
> possibly landed a military force on the American continent and who,
> twenty-six years later during his presidency, would do so with
> devastating effect as they marched unopposed into Washington DC,
> looted the White House, and burned the public buildings.
> 
>> But were the people to possess the additional advantages
>> of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the
>> national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed
>> out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them
>> and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance,
>> that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily
>> overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.
> 
> Here, the author's meaning is clear; the states control their
> respective militias: "[state] governments [...] who could collect the
> national will and direct the national force [...] officers appointed
> out of the militia, by [the state] governments, and attached both to
> them and to the militia..."  The author does *not* mean an armed mob.
> 
>> Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion,
>> that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would
>> be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power
>> would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors.
> 
> Again, Mr. Madison speaks of England; both Madison and Jefferson were
> much further aligned with France than with England; Alexander Hamilton
> (the author of Federalist 29) leaned toward the English perspective
> and never spoke of "the debased subjects of arbitrary power".
> 
> **********
> 
> Nations are like humans in that they rise, flourish, and,
> subsequently, die.  What usually happens when a democracy dies is that
> the country becomes ready for a dictator... then, one shows up and is
> hailed as a popular savior; in this case, a militia is most often used
> against a people instead of for them.  Contrary to popular myth,
> demagogues do *not* try to control the guns; they go after the media
> as purveyors of "fake news" first, taking control under the guise of
> disseminating the truth.
> 
> ****************
> 
> About two years later, Mr. Madison would write: "A well regulated
> Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..." and, for
> some unfathomable reason, many argue that the writer didn't really
> mean to say "A well regulated Militia..."; what he meant was a "well
> functioning" militia; like a clock that keeps good time[?]  Actually,
> he meant exactly what he wrote.  He meant the well regulated militia
> as opposed to a standing army.  This differentiation is thematic in
> the writings of James Madison until his traumatic experience in 1814.
> What the second amendment did was to codify local control of the
> militia.  After the US militia were thoroughly humiliated in the War
> of 1812, the United States moved to a standing army and the second
> amendment became an eighteenth century legislative artifact.
> 
> Jones
> --
> Quod si non verum est, non dicere est.
> 

Go with the actual words and their meanings. And have evidence-based
policy. 

Those words terrify the NRA and their supporters. 

Back to sci.physics | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Chelsea Handler says here armed guards don't kill children! benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-05-31 02:37 -0400
  Re:Chelsea Handler says here armed guards don't kill children! Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-05-31 09:16 +0200
    Re: Chelsea Handler says here armed guards don't kill children! benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-05-31 03:51 -0400
  Slaughtering concert goers. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-05-31 05:22 -0700
    Re: Slaughtering concert goers. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-05-31 12:06 -0400
      Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-31 10:02 -0700
        Re: Slaughtering concert goers. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-05-31 15:49 -0400
          Re: Slaughtering concert goers. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-05-31 20:12 +0000
            Re: Slaughtering concert goers. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-05-31 17:20 -0400
          Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-31 16:37 -0700
            Re: Slaughtering concert goers. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-05-31 19:57 -0400
              Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-31 17:12 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-05-31 21:38 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-31 21:32 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 02:42 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 07:54 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 20:22 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 17:36 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 23:07 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 20:31 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-02 01:47 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 23:11 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2018-06-08 07:15 -0500
        Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-01 08:50 -0700
          Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 09:09 -0700
            Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-01 22:53 -0700
              Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 23:13 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-01 23:39 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 00:16 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-02 11:29 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 11:43 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-02 14:33 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-02 16:58 -0400
    Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-05-31 19:49 -0500
      Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-05-31 17:51 -0700
        Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-31 21:26 -0700
          Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 02:39 -0400
            Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 07:57 -0700
              Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 20:13 -0400
          Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-01 03:21 -0700
            Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 07:46 -0700
              Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-01 08:12 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 08:27 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-01 11:59 -0700
                Re: ❄ Snowflake ❄ Slaughtering concert goers. ❄ Snowflake ❄ Your Friendly Neighbourhood Puppy Whistle Holder Emeritus 🐶笛 <root@127.0.0.1> - 2018-06-01 14:07 -0500
                Re: ? Snowflake ? Slaughtering concert goers. ? Snowflake ? "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-01 18:50 -0700
                Re: ? Snowflake ? Slaughtering concert goers. ? Snowflake ? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 23:00 -0700
                Re: ? Snowflake ? Slaughtering concert goers. ? Snowflake ? "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-01 23:13 -0700
                Re: ? Snowflake ? Slaughtering concert goers. ? Snowflake ? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 23:29 -0700
                Re: ? Snowflake ? Slaughtering concert goers. ? Snowflake ? "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-01 23:47 -0700
                Re: ? Snowflake ? Slaughtering concert goers. ? Snowflake ? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 00:18 -0700
                Re: ? Snowflake ? Slaughtering concert goers. ? Snowflake ? "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-02 09:14 -0700
                Re: ? Snowflake ? Slaughtering concert goers. ? Snowflake ? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 11:48 -0700
                Re: ? Snowflake ? Slaughtering concert goers. ? Snowflake ? "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-02 14:28 -0700
                Re: ? Snowflake ? Slaughtering concert goers. ? Snowflake ? benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-02 20:14 -0400
                Re: ? Snowflake ? Slaughtering concert goers. ? Snowflake ? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 00:47 +0000
                Re: ❄ Snowflake ❄ ? Snowflake ? Slaughtering concert goers. ? Snowflake ? ❄ Snowflake ❄ Your Friendly Neighbourhood Puppy Whistle Holder Emeritus 🐶笛 <root@127.0.0.1> - 2018-06-02 08:15 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 12:30 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-01 17:09 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 17:37 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-01 18:00 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 18:14 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 23:11 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 20:34 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-02 01:09 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 22:48 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-02 04:53 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 10:11 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 00:12 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 23:09 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 20:32 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-02 00:47 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 22:05 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-02 01:31 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 23:01 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 20:39 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 18:16 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 23:14 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 20:35 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-02 01:19 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 22:40 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 21:26 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 19:11 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 23:15 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 20:36 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-02 01:32 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 23:03 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 20:34 -0400
              Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 20:32 -0400
            Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 20:26 -0400
              Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-01 18:01 -0700
          Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-01 08:08 -0500
            Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 07:40 -0700
              Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 21:35 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 19:15 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 23:53 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 21:09 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-02 01:51 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 23:12 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-02 04:54 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 22:00 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-02 05:06 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 22:09 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-02 01:54 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 23:13 -0700
                The Supreme Court got it wrong. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-02 06:51 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-02 11:59 -0400
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 10:43 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-02 16:25 -0400
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 13:28 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-02 19:45 -0400
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 00:47 +0000
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Just Wondering <JustWondering@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-03 16:08 -0600
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 22:32 +0000
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-03 23:24 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 01:12 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-04 21:15 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 04:31 +0000
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 10:37 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-02 10:48 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 11:00 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-02 13:27 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 13:32 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-02 16:58 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-02 21:38 -0400
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 18:49 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-03 03:49 +0000
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 21:45 -0700
                Permission to breath ? Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-02 19:10 -0700
                Re: Permission to breath ? % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-02 19:13 -0700
                Re: Permission to breath ? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 20:07 -0700
                Re: Permission to breath ? % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-02 20:10 -0700
                Re: Permission to breath ? Earle Jones <earle.jones@comcast.net> - 2018-06-02 20:36 -0700
                Re: Permission to breath ? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 20:53 -0700
                Re: Permission to breath ? benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-02 23:33 -0400
                Re: Permission to breath ? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 20:42 -0700
                Re: Permission to breath ? benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-03 07:57 -0400
                Re: Permission to breath ? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 11:08 -0700
                Re: Permission to breath ? Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 20:07 -0700
                Clarity. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-03 08:52 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-03 03:46 +0000
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 21:53 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-02 22:59 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 23:19 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-03 09:10 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 00:31 -0400
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 06:12 +0000
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 18:26 -0400
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 16:37 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 23:10 -0400
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 20:54 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-06 22:19 -0500
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-06 20:58 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-07 00:24 -0400
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-07 05:43 +0000
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-08 07:17 +0000
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-08 00:21 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-09 16:07 +0000
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 09:30 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-10 01:32 +0000
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-09 18:34 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 20:50 -0700
                "Natural Rights" aren't always wonderful. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 19:02 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 20:49 -0700
                Depressed Losers, slaughtering consert goers, is "natural" ? Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 12:21 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 02:18 -0400
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 06:25 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 18:38 -0400
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 16:43 -0700
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 23:16 -0400
                Re: The Supreme Court got it wrong. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 21:03 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Checkmate <ricksabian1@gmail.com> - 2018-06-02 09:46 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-02 01:53 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 23:13 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. mixed nuts <melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> - 2018-06-02 01:20 -0400
                Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-02 06:27 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 10:14 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-02 10:38 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 10:57 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-02 13:27 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 13:29 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-02 16:57 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 00:47 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-02 18:25 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 18:53 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-02 19:29 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 20:09 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-02 21:02 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-02 21:32 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-03 07:59 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-03 04:02 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 11:03 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-03 11:12 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 11:38 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-03 11:53 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 12:04 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 12:16 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 12:26 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 12:33 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 12:38 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 12:44 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 13:14 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 13:17 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 13:21 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-03 16:40 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 16:47 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 16:57 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 17:00 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-03 17:05 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 17:13 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-03 18:31 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 18:40 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-04 03:44 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 08:39 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-04 17:37 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 15:54 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-03 04:01 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 11:02 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-03 11:13 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 11:39 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-03 11:54 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 12:05 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-03 16:41 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 16:48 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-03 17:07 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 17:14 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 17:17 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 17:21 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2018-06-03 20:11 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 21:20 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-03 18:31 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 18:43 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-04 03:45 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 08:40 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-04 12:03 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 00:04 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 12:05 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-04 00:47 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 01:11 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-04 21:13 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 04:31 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 18:04 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 16:21 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 20:37 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 18:05 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 23:30 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 21:03 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-06-03 17:11 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 00:02 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 00:02 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 04:19 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 17:59 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 15:05 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 15:10 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 16:24 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 16:27 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 18:44 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 17:00 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 21:42 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 19:12 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-04 17:27 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 15:47 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-04 23:47 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 04:19 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-04 23:51 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 06:11 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-05 07:19 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 08:06 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-05 09:37 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 16:51 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-05 13:18 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 14:50 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-05 16:33 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 17:09 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-05 17:32 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 18:04 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-05 22:35 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-06 15:05 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 18:06 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 18:10 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 18:48 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-06 07:48 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-06 15:05 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-06 15:27 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-06 16:30 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-06 08:55 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-06 15:32 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-06 16:33 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-06 15:34 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-06 19:03 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-06 17:54 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-06 17:51 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 18:06 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-05 20:45 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 18:15 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 16:33 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 21:41 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 19:11 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 18:09 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 16:24 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 21:17 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 18:50 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 18:08 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 16:23 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 21:01 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 18:10 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 23:32 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 21:06 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-08 05:15 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-08 06:41 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2018-06-08 07:49 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-08 07:22 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-08 21:11 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-08 21:30 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-08 21:54 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-08 22:06 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-08 22:42 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers like a meat packing service. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-08 22:50 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-04 23:07 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 04:31 +0000
      Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-05-31 21:25 -0700
        Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 02:37 -0400
          Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 07:57 -0700
            Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 21:51 -0400
        Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-01 08:00 -0500
          Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-01 06:26 -0700
          Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 21:28 -0400
            Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 19:12 -0700
              Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-01 23:27 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 21:07 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-02 01:44 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-01 23:09 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Just Wondering <JustWondering@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-03 16:19 -0600
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 22:32 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Just Wondering <JustWondering@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-03 21:23 -0600
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 20:31 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Just Wondering <JustWondering@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-03 22:09 -0600
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 21:14 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. mixed nuts <melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> - 2018-06-03 23:48 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 22:47 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Just Wondering <JustWondering@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-04 13:44 -0600
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 13:10 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 13:19 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-03 23:53 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Just Wondering <JustWondering@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-04 13:57 -0600
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 13:22 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 00:30 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Your Friendly Neighbourhood Puppy Whistle Holder Emeritus 🐶笛 <root@127.0.0.1> - 2018-06-04 02:48 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 00:58 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-04 22:19 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-04 20:56 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 04:26 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-04 23:45 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 04:19 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-04 21:30 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-06-04 01:30 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Just Wondering <JustWondering@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-04 14:00 -0600
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-04 22:45 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 04:19 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-04 23:39 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 06:11 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-05 07:48 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 06:15 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-05 15:20 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 14:55 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-05 20:34 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 18:52 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-05 22:57 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 20:47 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-07 15:09 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-07 16:52 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-07 20:14 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-08 06:41 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-08 08:29 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-08 08:20 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2018-06-08 07:16 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-06-08 06:25 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-08 08:30 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-04 21:32 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 00:34 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Just Wondering <JustWondering@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-04 14:07 -0600
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 13:27 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Just Wondering <JustWondering@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-04 17:07 -0600
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 16:18 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-04 16:46 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 17:04 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2018-06-08 07:15 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-04 22:13 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-04 20:16 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-04 23:41 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 06:11 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 04:19 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Just Wondering <JustWondering@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-05 02:29 -0600
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-05 07:50 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-05 07:41 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Just Wondering <JustWondering@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-05 10:38 -0600
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 10:01 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. !Jones <jones@fobahor.com> - 2018-06-05 12:55 -0500
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Checkmate <ricksabian1@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 07:58 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 08:11 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-05 11:56 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2018-06-05 14:58 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 12:17 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-05 13:02 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 14:45 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 14:51 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 14:56 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 15:02 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 18:47 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 15:51 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. mixed nuts <melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> - 2018-06-05 22:44 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 17:04 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 23:04 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 20:49 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 18:45 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 15:50 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 17:05 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 17:11 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 17:20 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 22:42 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 20:46 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 21:46 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 19:15 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 21:45 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 19:13 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 23:36 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 21:07 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 17:01 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-05 22:55 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 20:47 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-08 21:08 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-08 21:29 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-08 22:02 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-08 22:07 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-08 22:44 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-08 22:52 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "Scout" <me4guns@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> - 2018-06-09 02:13 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-08 23:20 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-09 06:22 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 15:16 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-09 08:28 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 15:50 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-09 09:23 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 09:51 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-09 10:29 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 10:35 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-09 20:16 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 21:08 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-10 14:33 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-10 14:54 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-10 14:56 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Checkmate <ricksabian1@gmail.com> - 2018-06-10 15:25 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-10 17:04 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-10 17:02 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Just Wondering <JW@me.com> - 2018-06-09 13:42 -0600
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 14:32 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Just Wondering <JW@me.com> - 2018-06-09 16:24 -0600
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 15:34 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Just Wondering <JW@me.com> - 2018-06-09 17:31 -0600
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 16:42 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-09 23:47 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 16:57 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Checkmate <ricksabian1@gmail.com> - 2018-06-09 18:59 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 20:53 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 16:36 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-09 12:22 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 09:32 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 10:07 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Horace <skinnydude@a1c.org> - 2018-06-09 13:22 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Horace <skinnydude@a1c.org> - 2018-06-09 13:31 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 10:35 -0700
                Truth Avoidance. Jeff-Relf.Me  @. - 2018-06-09 12:11 -0700
                Re: Truth Avoidance. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 14:33 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-06-09 10:09 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-06-09 12:20 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 09:31 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2018-06-09 21:12 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 14:31 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Horace <skinnydude@a1c.org> - 2018-06-09 18:41 -0400
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-09 15:46 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 16:36 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-09 16:42 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 16:43 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-09 16:50 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 17:08 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-09 17:11 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-09 20:32 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Checkmate <ricksabian1@gmail.com> - 2018-06-09 23:55 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-10 08:36 +0000
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-10 11:53 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Checkmate <ricksabian1@gmail.com> - 2018-06-10 00:16 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Steve Carroll <frelwizzen@gmail.com> - 2018-06-10 02:01 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-10 12:03 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-05 16:20 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. % <persent@gmail.com> - 2018-06-05 16:43 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-05 16:59 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 17:06 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. "max headroom" <maximusheadroom@gmx.com> - 2018-06-05 17:33 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2018-06-05 18:05 -0700
                Re: Slaughtering concert goers. Klaus  Schadenfreude <klausschadenfreude@null.net> - 2018-06-05 18:06 -0700

(Thread has 578 articles, showing 500 — browse group in flat view)

csiph-web