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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #614013 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2023-06-28 23:53 -0700 |
| Last post | 2023-06-30 21:30 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 26 — 6 participants |
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Can a black hole move? Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-06-28 23:53 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2023-06-29 10:06 +0000
Re: Can a black hole move? whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-06-29 09:29 -0500
Re: Can a black hole move? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-06-29 15:23 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-06-29 19:41 -0500
Re: Can a black hole move? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-06-29 17:52 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-06-29 19:56 -0500
Re: Can a black hole move? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-06-29 18:02 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-06-29 18:17 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-06-29 18:23 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-06-29 18:38 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-06-29 19:22 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-06-29 20:37 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-06-30 10:05 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-06-30 20:33 -0400
Re: Can a black hole move? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-06-30 19:49 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-06-29 21:23 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-06-30 10:07 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-06-30 10:11 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-06-30 10:34 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> - 2023-06-30 10:49 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-06-30 10:50 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-06-30 10:51 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-06-30 10:52 -0700
Re: Can a black hole move? Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-06-30 20:45 -0400
Re: Can a black hole move? Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-06-30 21:30 -0700
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| From | Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-28 23:53 -0700 |
| Subject | Can a black hole move? |
| Message-ID | <5b7815c8-1763-4240-8aea-cf9199563d4dn@googlegroups.com> |
On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: > This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according to the > faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and "freezes" > at the horizon. Why the revelation? And with these "freezing" tales - can your "black hole" move? I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and "freezes"" according to faraway me - it practically doesn't change position according to faraway me. And, as it's always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't change the position as well...
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| From | Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-29 10:06 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <cTKAZmLgEEqBfFqk84Nd29hqf_Y@jntp> |
| In reply to | #614013 |
Le 29/06/2023 à 08:53, Maciej Wozniak a écrit : > On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: > >> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according to the >> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and "freezes" >> at the horizon. Why the revelation? > > And with these "freezing" tales - can your > "black hole" move? > I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and > "freezes"" according to faraway me - it > practically doesn't change position > according to faraway me. And, as it's > always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't > change the position as well... A black hole is a hole in space. However, absolute space does not exist. In fact, a black hole is a hole in nothing. And the hole in nothing, he attracts the masses who pass by with his muscular little fingers. R.H.
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| From | whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-29 09:29 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <kg5iqdFhii9U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #614015 |
On 6/29/2023 5:06 AM, Richard Hachel wrote: > Le 29/06/2023 à 08:53, Maciej Wozniak a écrit : >> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: >> >>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according to the >>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and "freezes" >>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? >> >> And with these "freezing" tales - can your >> "black hole" move? >> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and >> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it practically doesn't change >> position according to faraway me. And, as it's always in the vincinity >> of BH, BH can't >> change the position as well... > > A black hole is a hole in space. > > However, absolute space does not exist. > > In fact, a black hole is a hole in nothing. > > And the hole in nothing, he attracts the masses who pass by with his > muscular little fingers. Mitchism.
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| From | "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-29 15:23 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <u7l08u$2986o$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #614013 |
On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: > On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: > >> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according to the >> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and "freezes" >> at the horizon. Why the revelation? > > And with these "freezing" tales - can your > "black hole" move? > I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and > "freezes"" according to faraway me - it > practically doesn't change position > according to faraway me. And, as it's > always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't > change the position as well... A black hole can move.
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| From | whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-29 19:41 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <kg6mlvFmnhfU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #614072 |
On 6/29/2023 5:23 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: >> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: >> >>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according to the >>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and "freezes" >>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? >> >> And with these "freezing" tales - can your >> "black hole" move? >> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and >> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it >> practically doesn't change position >> according to faraway me. And, as it's >> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't >> change the position as well... > > A black hole can move. Bearing in mind that all motion is relative.
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| From | "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-29 17:52 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <u7l90b$29vnh$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #614083 |
On 6/29/2023 5:41 PM, whodat wrote: > On 6/29/2023 5:23 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >> On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: >>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: >>> >>>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according to >>>> the >>>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and "freezes" >>>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? >>> >>> And with these "freezing" tales - can your >>> "black hole" move? >>> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and >>> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it >>> practically doesn't change position >>> according to faraway me. And, as it's >>> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't >>> change the position as well... >> >> A black hole can move. > > Bearing in mind that all motion is relative. > A black hole can move on its own, regardless of any observer.
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| From | whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-29 19:56 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <kg6niiFmnhfU6@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #614086 |
On 6/29/2023 7:52 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > On 6/29/2023 5:41 PM, whodat wrote: >> On 6/29/2023 5:23 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>> On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: >>>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according >>>>> to the >>>>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and "freezes" >>>>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? >>>> >>>> And with these "freezing" tales - can your >>>> "black hole" move? >>>> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and >>>> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it >>>> practically doesn't change position >>>> according to faraway me. And, as it's >>>> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't >>>> change the position as well... >>> >>> A black hole can move. >> >> Bearing in mind that all motion is relative. >> > > A black hole can move on its own, regardless of any observer. But relative to that observer, unless they are both moving together. But in a universe with nothing else in it, how would anyone know?
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| From | "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-29 18:02 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <u7l9ii$2a41a$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #614088 |
On 6/29/2023 5:56 PM, whodat wrote: > On 6/29/2023 7:52 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >> On 6/29/2023 5:41 PM, whodat wrote: >>> On 6/29/2023 5:23 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>> On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: >>>>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according >>>>>> to the >>>>>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and >>>>>> "freezes" >>>>>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? >>>>> >>>>> And with these "freezing" tales - can your >>>>> "black hole" move? >>>>> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and >>>>> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it >>>>> practically doesn't change position >>>>> according to faraway me. And, as it's >>>>> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't >>>>> change the position as well... >>>> >>>> A black hole can move. >>> >>> Bearing in mind that all motion is relative. >>> >> >> A black hole can move on its own, regardless of any observer. > > But relative to that observer, unless they are both moving > together. But in a universe with nothing else in it, how would > anyone know? > We can see and/or detect black holes spiraling around each other.
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| From | "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-29 18:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <d2f3b311-1acb-4c4d-a874-bed7df4288c0n@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #614089 |
On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:02:13 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > On 6/29/2023 5:56 PM, whodat wrote: > > On 6/29/2023 7:52 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > >> On 6/29/2023 5:41 PM, whodat wrote: > >>> On 6/29/2023 5:23 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > >>>> On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: > >>>>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according > >>>>>> to the > >>>>>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and > >>>>>> "freezes" > >>>>>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? > >>>>> > >>>>> And with these "freezing" tales - can your > >>>>> "black hole" move? > >>>>> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and > >>>>> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it > >>>>> practically doesn't change position > >>>>> according to faraway me. And, as it's > >>>>> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't > >>>>> change the position as well... > >>>> > >>>> A black hole can move. > >>> > >>> Bearing in mind that all motion is relative. > >>> > >> > >> A black hole can move on its own, regardless of any observer. > > > > But relative to that observer, unless they are both moving > > together. But in a universe with nothing else in it, how would > > anyone know? > > > We can see and/or detect black holes spiraling around each other. That is not what we are seeing. Falling into a BH center is the end of space time. How can the end move?
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| From | "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-29 18:23 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <u7laq6$2a7ir$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #614092 |
On 6/29/2023 6:17 PM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:02:13 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >> On 6/29/2023 5:56 PM, whodat wrote: >>> On 6/29/2023 7:52 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>> On 6/29/2023 5:41 PM, whodat wrote: >>>>> On 6/29/2023 5:23 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>>>> On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: >>>>>>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according >>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and >>>>>>>> "freezes" >>>>>>>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And with these "freezing" tales - can your >>>>>>> "black hole" move? >>>>>>> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and >>>>>>> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it >>>>>>> practically doesn't change position >>>>>>> according to faraway me. And, as it's >>>>>>> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't >>>>>>> change the position as well... >>>>>> >>>>>> A black hole can move. >>>>> >>>>> Bearing in mind that all motion is relative. >>>>> >>>> >>>> A black hole can move on its own, regardless of any observer. >>> >>> But relative to that observer, unless they are both moving >>> together. But in a universe with nothing else in it, how would >>> anyone know? >>> >> We can see and/or detect black holes spiraling around each other. > > That is not what we are seeing. > Falling into a BH center is the end of space time. > How can the end move? We can observe black holes spiraling around each other, some of them merge together...
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| From | "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-29 18:38 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ec432605-40dc-4fda-b9ef-7740584b68edn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #614094 |
On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:23:23 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > On 6/29/2023 6:17 PM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:02:13 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > >> On 6/29/2023 5:56 PM, whodat wrote: > >>> On 6/29/2023 7:52 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > >>>> On 6/29/2023 5:41 PM, whodat wrote: > >>>>> On 6/29/2023 5:23 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > >>>>>> On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: > >>>>>>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according > >>>>>>>> to the > >>>>>>>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and > >>>>>>>> "freezes" > >>>>>>>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> And with these "freezing" tales - can your > >>>>>>> "black hole" move? > >>>>>>> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and > >>>>>>> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it > >>>>>>> practically doesn't change position > >>>>>>> according to faraway me. And, as it's > >>>>>>> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't > >>>>>>> change the position as well... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> A black hole can move. > >>>>> > >>>>> Bearing in mind that all motion is relative. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> A black hole can move on its own, regardless of any observer. > >>> > >>> But relative to that observer, unless they are both moving > >>> together. But in a universe with nothing else in it, how would > >>> anyone know? > >>> > >> We can see and/or detect black holes spiraling around each other. > > > > That is not what we are seeing. > > Falling into a BH center is the end of space time. > > How can the end move? > We can observe black holes spiraling around each other, some of them > merge together... They don't exist. If they did they would not spiral together. They would have been in stable orbits that have been for their life time. Mitchell Raemsch
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| From | "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-29 19:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <u7le93$2e6rc$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #614097 |
On 6/29/2023 6:38 PM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:23:23 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >> On 6/29/2023 6:17 PM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: >>> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:02:13 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>> On 6/29/2023 5:56 PM, whodat wrote: >>>>> On 6/29/2023 7:52 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>>>> On 6/29/2023 5:41 PM, whodat wrote: >>>>>>> On 6/29/2023 5:23 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>>>>>> On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according >>>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and >>>>>>>>>> "freezes" >>>>>>>>>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And with these "freezing" tales - can your >>>>>>>>> "black hole" move? >>>>>>>>> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and >>>>>>>>> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it >>>>>>>>> practically doesn't change position >>>>>>>>> according to faraway me. And, as it's >>>>>>>>> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't >>>>>>>>> change the position as well... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A black hole can move. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bearing in mind that all motion is relative. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> A black hole can move on its own, regardless of any observer. >>>>> >>>>> But relative to that observer, unless they are both moving >>>>> together. But in a universe with nothing else in it, how would >>>>> anyone know? >>>>> >>>> We can see and/or detect black holes spiraling around each other. >>> >>> That is not what we are seeing. >>> Falling into a BH center is the end of space time. >>> How can the end move? >> We can observe black holes spiraling around each other, some of them >> merge together... > > They don't exist. If you say so. > If they did they would not spiral together. They would have been in stable orbits > that have been for their life time. They can most certainly merge together.
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| From | "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-29 20:37 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b5280c17-5f82-4a5a-8c25-5b2f39997c5cn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #614101 |
On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 7:22:30 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > On 6/29/2023 6:38 PM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:23:23 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > >> On 6/29/2023 6:17 PM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: > >>> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:02:13 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > >>>> On 6/29/2023 5:56 PM, whodat wrote: > >>>>> On 6/29/2023 7:52 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > >>>>>> On 6/29/2023 5:41 PM, whodat wrote: > >>>>>>> On 6/29/2023 5:23 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according > >>>>>>>>>> to the > >>>>>>>>>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and > >>>>>>>>>> "freezes" > >>>>>>>>>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> And with these "freezing" tales - can your > >>>>>>>>> "black hole" move? > >>>>>>>>> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and > >>>>>>>>> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it > >>>>>>>>> practically doesn't change position > >>>>>>>>> according to faraway me. And, as it's > >>>>>>>>> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't > >>>>>>>>> change the position as well... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> A black hole can move. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Bearing in mind that all motion is relative. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> A black hole can move on its own, regardless of any observer. > >>>>> > >>>>> But relative to that observer, unless they are both moving > >>>>> together. But in a universe with nothing else in it, how would > >>>>> anyone know? > >>>>> > >>>> We can see and/or detect black holes spiraling around each other. > >>> > >>> That is not what we are seeing. > >>> Falling into a BH center is the end of space time. > >>> How can the end move? > >> We can observe black holes spiraling around each other, some of them > >> merge together... > > > > They don't exist. > If you say so. > > If they did they would not spiral together. They would have been in stable orbits > > that have been for their life time. > They can most certainly merge together. So how were they in their stable orbits first? They would never leave that.
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| From | "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-30 10:05 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <u7n21b$2jdlf$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #614103 |
On 6/29/2023 8:37 PM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 7:22:30 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >> On 6/29/2023 6:38 PM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: >>> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:23:23 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>> On 6/29/2023 6:17 PM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:02:13 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>>>> On 6/29/2023 5:56 PM, whodat wrote: >>>>>>> On 6/29/2023 7:52 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>>>>>> On 6/29/2023 5:41 PM, whodat wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 6/29/2023 5:23 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according >>>>>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>>>>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and >>>>>>>>>>>> "freezes" >>>>>>>>>>>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And with these "freezing" tales - can your >>>>>>>>>>> "black hole" move? >>>>>>>>>>> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and >>>>>>>>>>> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it >>>>>>>>>>> practically doesn't change position >>>>>>>>>>> according to faraway me. And, as it's >>>>>>>>>>> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't >>>>>>>>>>> change the position as well... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A black hole can move. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Bearing in mind that all motion is relative. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A black hole can move on its own, regardless of any observer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But relative to that observer, unless they are both moving >>>>>>> together. But in a universe with nothing else in it, how would >>>>>>> anyone know? >>>>>>> >>>>>> We can see and/or detect black holes spiraling around each other. >>>>> >>>>> That is not what we are seeing. >>>>> Falling into a BH center is the end of space time. >>>>> How can the end move? >>>> We can observe black holes spiraling around each other, some of them >>>> merge together... >>> >>> They don't exist. >> If you say so. >>> If they did they would not spiral together. They would have been in stable orbits >>> that have been for their life time. >> They can most certainly merge together. > > So how were they in their stable orbits first? > They would never leave that. Some of them might be in stable orbits, and some of them might be on a "doomsday orbit" where they will merge with the larger black hole they are orbiting...
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| From | Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-30 20:33 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <u7ns9l$2m4sn$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #614135 |
On 6/30/2023 1:05 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > On 6/29/2023 8:37 PM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: >> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 7:22:30 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>> On 6/29/2023 6:38 PM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: >>>> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:23:23 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson >>>> wrote: >>>>> On 6/29/2023 6:17 PM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:02:13 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> On 6/29/2023 5:56 PM, whodat wrote: >>>>>>>> On 6/29/2023 7:52 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 6/29/2023 5:41 PM, whodat wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 6/29/2023 5:23 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course >>>>>>>>>>>>> according >>>>>>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and >>>>>>>>>>>>> "freezes" >>>>>>>>>>>>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And with these "freezing" tales - can your >>>>>>>>>>>> "black hole" move? >>>>>>>>>>>> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and >>>>>>>>>>>> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it >>>>>>>>>>>> practically doesn't change position >>>>>>>>>>>> according to faraway me. And, as it's >>>>>>>>>>>> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't >>>>>>>>>>>> change the position as well... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> A black hole can move. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bearing in mind that all motion is relative. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A black hole can move on its own, regardless of any observer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But relative to that observer, unless they are both moving >>>>>>>> together. But in a universe with nothing else in it, how would >>>>>>>> anyone know? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> We can see and/or detect black holes spiraling around each other. >>>>>> >>>>>> That is not what we are seeing. >>>>>> Falling into a BH center is the end of space time. >>>>>> How can the end move? >>>>> We can observe black holes spiraling around each other, some of them >>>>> merge together... >>>> >>>> They don't exist. >>> If you say so. >>>> If they did they would not spiral together. They would have been in >>>> stable orbits >>>> that have been for their life time. >>> They can most certainly merge together. >> >> So how were they in their stable orbits first? >> They would never leave that. > > Some of them might be in stable orbits, and some of them might be on a > "doomsday orbit" where they will merge with the larger black hole they > are orbiting... Everything orbiting, or accelerating in any way, emits gravitational waves. But the effect is so tiny that everything else swamps it in most cases. Close orbiting black holes are the exception; they have a finite lifetime and can be detected in many cases. Even the earth orbiting the sun radiates gravitational waves. But the tugs of all the other planets, asteroids, its GR orbital precession will be much larger than its effect.
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| From | "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-30 19:49 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <u7o48o$2qgos$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #614158 |
On 6/30/2023 5:33 PM, Volney wrote: > On 6/30/2023 1:05 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >> On 6/29/2023 8:37 PM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: >>> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 7:22:30 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson >>> wrote: >>>> On 6/29/2023 6:38 PM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:23:23 PM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> On 6/29/2023 6:17 PM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 6:02:13 PM UTC-7, Chris M. >>>>>>> Thomasson wrote: >>>>>>>> On 6/29/2023 5:56 PM, whodat wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 6/29/2023 7:52 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 6/29/2023 5:41 PM, whodat wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 6/29/2023 5:23 PM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course >>>>>>>>>>>>>> according >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "freezes" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And with these "freezing" tales - can your >>>>>>>>>>>>> "black hole" move? >>>>>>>>>>>>> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and >>>>>>>>>>>>> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it >>>>>>>>>>>>> practically doesn't change position >>>>>>>>>>>>> according to faraway me. And, as it's >>>>>>>>>>>>> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't >>>>>>>>>>>>> change the position as well... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> A black hole can move. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Bearing in mind that all motion is relative. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A black hole can move on its own, regardless of any observer. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But relative to that observer, unless they are both moving >>>>>>>>> together. But in a universe with nothing else in it, how would >>>>>>>>> anyone know? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We can see and/or detect black holes spiraling around each other. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That is not what we are seeing. >>>>>>> Falling into a BH center is the end of space time. >>>>>>> How can the end move? >>>>>> We can observe black holes spiraling around each other, some of them >>>>>> merge together... >>>>> >>>>> They don't exist. >>>> If you say so. >>>>> If they did they would not spiral together. They would have been in >>>>> stable orbits >>>>> that have been for their life time. >>>> They can most certainly merge together. >>> >>> So how were they in their stable orbits first? >>> They would never leave that. >> >> Some of them might be in stable orbits, and some of them might be on a >> "doomsday orbit" where they will merge with the larger black hole they >> are orbiting... > > Everything orbiting, or accelerating in any way, emits gravitational > waves. I think that is due to the mass of the object in orbit. I don't think that a photon in orbit around a black hole generates its own gravitational field? > But the effect is so tiny that everything else swamps it in most > cases. Close orbiting black holes are the exception; they have a finite > lifetime and can be detected in many cases. > > Even the earth orbiting the sun radiates gravitational waves. But the > tugs of all the other planets, asteroids, its GR orbital precession will > be much larger than its effect.
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| From | Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-29 21:23 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <20daa285-1ca5-444a-bd88-e1065fc035ecn@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #614072 |
On Friday, 30 June 2023 at 00:23:30 UTC+2, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: > > On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: > > > >> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according to the > >> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and "freezes" > >> at the horizon. Why the revelation? > > > > And with these "freezing" tales - can your > > "black hole" move? > > I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and > > "freezes"" according to faraway me - it > > practically doesn't change position > > according to faraway me. And, as it's > > always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't > > change the position as well... > A black hole can move. So, what with these "freezing" tales? I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and "freezes"" according to faraway me - it practically doesn't change position according to faraway me. And, as it's always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't change the position as well...
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| From | "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-30 10:07 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <u7n23s$2jdlf$5@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #614107 |
On 6/29/2023 9:23 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: > On Friday, 30 June 2023 at 00:23:30 UTC+2, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >> On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: >>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: >>> >>>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according to the >>>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and "freezes" >>>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? >>> >>> And with these "freezing" tales - can your >>> "black hole" move? >>> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and >>> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it >>> practically doesn't change position >>> according to faraway me. And, as it's >>> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't >>> change the position as well... >> A black hole can move. > > So, what with these "freezing" tales? Well, the object falling into a black hole does not freeze at all. The observer observes them to be in a frozen state. This does not mean that the object is frozen. > > I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and > "freezes"" according to faraway me - it > practically doesn't change position > according to faraway me. And, as it's > always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't > change the position as well...
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| From | "mitchr...@gmail.com" <mitchrae3323@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-30 10:11 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <a89c672a-dd70-4e6a-bf5e-13db3d5735een@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #614136 |
On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 10:07:12 AM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > On 6/29/2023 9:23 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: > > On Friday, 30 June 2023 at 00:23:30 UTC+2, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: > >> On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: > >>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: > >>> > >>>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according to the > >>>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and "freezes" > >>>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? > >>> > >>> And with these "freezing" tales - can your > >>> "black hole" move? > >>> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and > >>> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it > >>> practically doesn't change position > >>> according to faraway me. And, as it's > >>> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't > >>> change the position as well... > >> A black hole can move. > > > > So, what with these "freezing" tales? > Well, the object falling into a black hole does not freeze at all. The > observer observes them to be in a frozen state. This does not mean that > the object is frozen. > > > > I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and > > "freezes"" according to faraway me - it > > practically doesn't change position > > according to faraway me. And, as it's > > always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't > > change the position as well... If you fall into the end of space time by gravity how can there be any more motion?
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| From | "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2023-06-30 10:34 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <u7n3m9$2jl22$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #614138 |
On 6/30/2023 10:11 AM, mitchr...@gmail.com wrote: > On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 10:07:12 AM UTC-7, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >> On 6/29/2023 9:23 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: >>> On Friday, 30 June 2023 at 00:23:30 UTC+2, Chris M. Thomasson wrote: >>>> On 6/28/2023 11:53 PM, Maciej Wozniak wrote: >>>>> On Monday, 19 June 2023 at 06:10:49 UTC+2, JanPB wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> This is is an antique argument, pre-Painlevé. Of course according to the >>>>>> faraway coordinate clock the accreting matter slows down and "freezes" >>>>>> at the horizon. Why the revelation? >>>>> >>>>> And with these "freezing" tales - can your >>>>> "black hole" move? >>>>> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and >>>>> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it >>>>> practically doesn't change position >>>>> according to faraway me. And, as it's >>>>> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't >>>>> change the position as well... >>>> A black hole can move. >>> >>> So, what with these "freezing" tales? >> Well, the object falling into a black hole does not freeze at all. The >> observer observes them to be in a frozen state. This does not mean that >> the object is frozen. >>> >>> I mean - if accreting matter "slows down and >>> "freezes"" according to faraway me - it >>> practically doesn't change position >>> according to faraway me. And, as it's >>> always in the vincinity of BH, BH can't >>> change the position as well... > > If you fall into the end of space time by gravity > how can there be any more motion? I did not mention an end. Perhaps it is a _new_ beginning?
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