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Obvious Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics

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  Obvious Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics Pentcho Valev <pvalev@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-22 13:06 -0700
    Re: Obvious Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2016-09-23 10:05 -0700
      Re: Obvious Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-09-25 14:39 +1000
    Re: Obvious Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics Pentcho Valev <pvalev@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-24 17:21 -0700
      Re: Obvious Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics bartekltg <bartekltg@gmail.com> - 2016-09-25 10:39 +0200
    Re: Obvious Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics bartekltg <bartekltg@gmail.com> - 2016-09-25 10:32 +0200

#393389 — Obvious Violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics

In the following two videos one switches the capacitor on and off and the system can repeatedly lift floating weights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHNwvfXUYb4 
 Rise in Liquid Level Between Plates of a Capacitor  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6KAH1JpdPg 
 Liquid Dielectric Capacitor 

Switching the capacitor on and off involves no work done on the system so the energy for the work done BY the system (if it repeatedly lifts floating weights) can only come from the environmental heat, in violation of the second law of thermodynamics. 

The liquid-dielectric-capacitor perpetuum mobile (of the second kind) can be described in a different way. When a constant-charge parallel-plate capacitor is immersed in a liquid dielectric, e.g. water, a mysterious pressure emerges between the plates, pushes them apart and so counteracts their electrostatic attraction: 

http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/jk1/lectures/node46.html 
 "However, in experiments in which a capacitor is submerged in a dielectric liquid the force per unit area exerted by one plate on another is observed to decrease... [...] This apparent paradox can be explained by taking into account the difference in liquid pressure in the field filled space between the plates and the field free region outside the capacitor." 

So we have a high pressure between the plates and a lower pressure outside the capacitor - then what if one punches a small hole in one of the plates? Will there be an eternal flow through the hole, from inside to outside? 

If the plates are vertical and only partially immersed, the same mysterious pressure forces the liquid between the plates to rise above the surface of the water pool, as seen in the videos above and in Fig. 1 and Fig. 2 here: 

http://www.academia.edu/25650739/Fluids_in_electric_and_magnetic_fields_Pressure_variation_and_stability 
 I. Brevik, Fluids in electric and magnetic fields: Pressure variation and stability, Can. J . Phys. (1982): "Fig. 1. Two charged condenser plates partly immersed in a dielectric liquid. [...] Fig. 2. The hydrostatic pressure variation from point 1 to point 5 in Fig. 1." 

In 2002 I proposed the following device violating the second law of thermodynamics: 

http://proceedings.aip.org/resource/2/apcpcs/643/1/430_1 
 AIP Conf. Proc. 643, pp. 430-435, Pentcho Valev 2002: "...as two vertical constant-charge capacitor plates partially dip into a pool of a liquid dielectric (e.g. water), the liquid between them rises high above the surface of the rest of the liquid in the pool. Evidently, if one punches a macroscopic hole in one of the plates, nothing could prevent the liquid between the plates from leaking out through the hole and generating an eternal waterfall outside the capacitor. This hypothesis has been discussed on many occasions but so far no serious counter-argument has been raised." 

Here is a schematic picture of the "eternal waterfall": 

http://energythic.com/usercontent/3/DIEPHOPU_caphole.gif

Here I have tried to explain the molecular mechanism of the effect: 

http://www.gsjournal.net/old/valev/valev2.pdf 
 Biased Thermal Motion and the Second Law of Thermodynamics (August 12, 2004)

Pentcho Valev

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#393500

On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 3:06:27 PM UTC-5, Pentcho Valev wrote:
> In the following two videos one switches the capacitor on and off and the system can repeatedly lift floating weights:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHNwvfXUYb4 
>  Rise in Liquid Level Between Plates of a Capacitor  
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6KAH1JpdPg 
>  Liquid Dielectric Capacitor 
> 
> Switching the capacitor on and off involves no work done on the system 

Don't be silly. Of course work is done on the system.

> so the energy for the work done BY the system (if it repeatedly lifts floating weights) can only come from the environmental heat, in violation of the second law of thermodynamics. 

No violation of the second law. What makes you fantasize that there is no drain
on the power source?

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#393690

On 24/09/2016 3:05 AM, Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog wrote:
> On Thursday, September 22, 2016 at 3:06:27 PM UTC-5, Pentcho Valev wrote:
>> In the following two videos one switches the capacitor on and off and the system can repeatedly lift floating weights:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHNwvfXUYb4
>>   Rise in Liquid Level Between Plates of a Capacitor
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6KAH1JpdPg
>>   Liquid Dielectric Capacitor
>>
>> Switching the capacitor on and off involves no work done on the system
>
> Don't be silly. Of course work is done on the system.
>
>> so the energy for the work done BY the system (if it repeatedly lifts floating weights) can only come from the environmental heat, in violation of the second law of thermodynamics.
>
> No violation of the second law. What makes you fantasize that there is no drain
> on the power source?
>


Pentcho never replies to a posting other than his own.

Sylvia.

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#393672

Water in an electric field has a tendency to rise - if there is some weight floating on the surface, it will be lifted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACDxurDAmyg 
 Chapter 11.6.2: Force on a liquid dielectric

Since switching the field on and off involves no work done on the system, the system does work for us (lifts floating weights) at the expense of heat absorbed from the surroundings, in violation of the second law of thermodynamics.

The "floating water bridge" is essentially the same phenomenon - water absorbs heat from the surroundings and uses it to "climb out of the beakers": 

http://phys.org/news/2007-09-bridge-exposed-high-voltage.html 
 "When exposed to a high-voltage electric field, water in two beakers climbs out of the beakers and crosses empty space to meet, forming the water bridge. The liquid bridge, hovering in space, appears to the human eye to defy gravity." 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhBn1ozht-E 
 The Floating Water Bridge 

Pentcho Valev

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#393701

On 25.09.2016 02:21, Pentcho Valev wrote:
> Water in an electric field has a tendency to rise - if there is some weight floating on the surface, it will be lifted:

Water have tendency to get into a stronger electric field.
Because this _decrease_ the total energy of the system.

Water goes up, because, howewer lifting mass increase energy,
but puting dieelectric inside a capacitor (with fixed voltage
due to conection to battery) decrease energy even more*)
and the total energy of the system goes to the minimum.

*) gravitational energy of water column is ~ h^2
Energy fron electricy is linear. So we have a minimum
for some height.

bartekltg

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#393699

On 22.09.2016 22:06, Pentcho Valev wrote:
> In the following two videos one switches the capacitor on and off and
> the system can repeatedly lift floating weights:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHNwvfXUYb4 Rise in Liquid Level
> Between Plates of a Capacitor
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6KAH1JpdPg Liquid Dielectric
> Capacitor
>
> Switching the capacitor on and off involves no work done on the
> system so the energy for the work done BY the system (if it
> repeatedly lifts floating weights) can only come from the
> environmental heat, in violation of the second law of thermodynamics.

Sure. The battery is there only for fun.

When you turn on switch, energy from battery goes to the capacitor,
when you tunr it off, energy disipades. Energy do not goes back
to the battery.

One can build an oscialtor, then indeed the system will oscilate,
but this is the perpetuum mobile II kind in the same sense
as a pendulum is.

Energy to lift water and create electric field do not come from
heat, it comes from battery (or coil in the oscilator case).

It moves... In ideal conditions it would move forever, but
in real word pendulum is breaking because of drag,
and our electric pump dissipate energy on resistance
and due to drag in water.


Do it without a battery on any different source of power,
then we can talk about breaking thermodynamics;-)

bartekltg

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