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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #363749 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Lleyton H. Bellucci" <lleyb@stratospheree.org> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2015-09-11 11:29 +0000 |
| Last post | 2015-09-16 20:09 +0200 |
| Articles | 9 on this page of 89 — 10 participants |
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The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued "Lleyton H. Bellucci" <lleyb@stratospheree.org> - 2015-09-11 11:29 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued "Lleyton H. Bellucci" <lleyb@stratospheree.org> - 2015-09-11 11:54 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued "Lleyton H. Bellucci" <lleyb@stratospheree.org> - 2015-09-11 11:58 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-11 08:18 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued "Lleyton H. Bellucci" <lleyb@stratospheree.org> - 2015-09-11 12:36 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued "Lleyton H. Bellucci" <lleyb@stratospheree.org> - 2015-09-11 12:45 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-11 08:15 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued "Lleyton H. Bellucci" <lleyb@stratospheree.org> - 2015-09-11 12:39 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-11 17:23 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-09-13 08:46 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Jimmie Wynne <jimmwyn@metermap.org> - 2015-09-17 20:33 +0000
The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-11 05:56 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued "Lleyton H. Bellucci" <lleyb@stratospheree.org> - 2015-09-11 13:03 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2015-09-12 08:33 +0200
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-12 08:24 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-12 05:34 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-12 09:23 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-12 09:27 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-12 17:23 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-12 21:29 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-12 15:07 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 12:17 -0500
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-14 16:32 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 15:45 -0500
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-14 17:28 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-14 17:10 -0500
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-14 20:38 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 08:27 -0500
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-15 14:38 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-09-15 13:44 -0500
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-15 21:01 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-14 20:55 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-14 17:29 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-12 05:32 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-12 09:22 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-12 08:33 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-12 09:36 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-14 07:57 -0700
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-14 12:29 -0400
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-09-22 18:48 -0700
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-23 08:33 -0700
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-23 14:10 -0400
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-23 08:36 -0700
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-23 08:46 -0700
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-23 11:13 -0700
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-23 09:06 -0700
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-23 10:46 -0700
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued Jimmie Wynne <jimmwyn@metermap.org> - 2015-09-23 19:19 +0000
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued shuba <tim@sh.uba> - 2015-09-23 17:51 +0000
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-23 11:02 -0700
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued Jimmie Wynne <jimmwyn@metermap.org> - 2015-09-23 19:18 +0000
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-24 07:38 -0700
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-24 07:55 -0700
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-24 08:18 -0700
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued Jimmie Wynne <jimmwyn@metermap.org> - 2015-09-24 14:55 +0000
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-24 08:05 -0700
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-24 09:15 -0700
Re: The mixed Up Nonsense of fyller.david - continued Jimmie Wynne <jimmwyn@metermap.org> - 2015-09-24 18:46 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-17 21:02 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-18 13:28 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-12 12:38 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-12 10:10 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-12 11:06 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-12 11:24 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-12 16:50 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-12 14:37 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Frances Espinosa <franesp@portio.org> - 2015-09-12 16:03 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2015-09-12 21:45 +0200
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-12 13:00 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2015-09-13 02:51 +0200
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-13 06:25 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-13 06:52 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-13 08:02 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-13 12:12 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Jimmie Wynne <jimmwyn@metermap.org> - 2015-09-18 20:41 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-18 17:18 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Jimmie Wynne <jimmwyn@metermap.org> - 2015-09-18 21:49 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Jimmie Wynne <jimmwyn@metermap.org> - 2015-09-18 22:01 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2015-09-13 21:48 +0200
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-09-13 16:05 -0400
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2015-09-14 05:19 +0200
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued shuba <tim@sh.uba> - 2015-09-14 03:53 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-09-13 21:15 -0700
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2015-09-14 06:57 +0200
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2015-09-15 21:18 +0200
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued shuba <tim@sh.uba> - 2015-09-15 20:23 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2015-09-16 07:48 +0200
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued shuba <tim@sh.uba> - 2015-09-16 09:49 +0000
Re: The Nonsense of Divergent Matter - continued Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2015-09-16 20:09 +0200
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| From | Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-14 05:19 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <d5msmsF540aU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #364010 |
Am 13.09.2015 22:05, schrieb kefischer: .. >> This is a mutual relation, since the harbour 'sinks behind the (event-) >> horizon' for an observer on a moving ship, while the ship does similar >> for an observer in the harbour. >> >> Sinking behind the event horizon may actually look dramatic and >> unpleasant, but the people on the ship think similar about you and your >> planet. >> >> TH > > The captain of the Bismark said, "I don't sink so". > > (I didn't know that you are captain of a ghost ship.) Well, if you don't like my explanation of 'black holes', than maybe you should write, what exactly you don't like and why. It is obviously a mutual relation and we see something remote vanishing in a black hole, this remote object would see us (Planet Earth) doing the same. This is very similar to the horizon and the 'disappearing' ships behind. From this we could see the 'relativity' of space and time. This - btw- is mentioned in the name of this forum (which is called 'sci.physics.relativity'). TH
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| From | shuba <tim@sh.uba> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-14 03:53 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mt5gbo$9mr$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #364043 |
Thomas Heger wrote:
> It is obviously a mutual relation and we see something remote
> vanishing in a black hole, this remote object would see us
> (Planet Earth) doing the same.
It may be obvious to you. Nevertheless it is trivially false.
---Tim Shuba---
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| From | fuller.david@hotmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-13 21:15 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <55f6ea27-e0c1-42e3-9b2a-1514ce2ad3fa@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #364044 |
- show quoted text - So, the variation in the vacuum impedance caused by the gravitation of the black hole would cause a temperature of 70 degrees to appear close to a temperature nearer the surface of the sun. If the gravity suddenly turned off, an extreme blue shift of any radiation would propagate from the point where gravity ceased as the the vacuum impedance returns to a more homogenous spatial state. Would gravity waves just be detected as photons ? Cold, superconductivity, zero impedance. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconductivity Impedance drops to zero, maximal time dilation, speed of light drops to Zero.
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| From | Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-14 06:57 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <d5n2enF698iU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #364044 |
Am 14.09.2015 05:53, schrieb shuba: > Thomas Heger wrote: > >> It is obviously a mutual relation and we see something remote >> vanishing in a black hole, this remote object would see us >> (Planet Earth) doing the same. > > It may be obvious to you. Nevertheless it is trivially false. > Did you make this decision yourself? TH
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| From | Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-15 21:18 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <d5r97fF8oubU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #364044 |
Am 14.09.2015 05:53, schrieb shuba: > Thomas Heger wrote: > >> It is obviously a mutual relation and we see something remote >> vanishing in a black hole, this remote object would see us >> (Planet Earth) doing the same. > > It may be obvious to you. Nevertheless it is trivially false. > There exists a so called 'equivalence principle' in relativity. According to this, all inertial FoRs of equal rights. This 'inertial' means: not accelerated. E.g. I could assume to fly 'inertial' at almost c through the universe. Now I'm allowed to call -say- 0.9 c 'zero' (velocity). This is so, because I cannot decide, whether or not I am whizzing by at almost c or are in fact at rest. If I'm watching the sky from my FoR, the speed of light is still c and I still see a universe. But I don't see the Earth, if that planet is receding fast enough: that planet is swallowed by a 'black hole'. This is my impression, since the Earth is gone. Only: my own FoR is also gone - if seen from the Earth. (Also dropped into a 'black hole'). This is obviously a mutual relation and depending on what you regard as at rest. Usually the observer in ANY FoR thinks, that he is actually at rest, while all the others move. And all the others think the same. So: movement is 'relative' and where you are is also the 'zero-reference-point'. This is so by definition, to what the equivalence principle gives the right. TH
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| From | shuba <tim@sh.uba> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-15 20:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mt9unh$fnm$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #364207 |
Thomas Heger wrote:
> Am 14.09.2015 05:53, schrieb shuba:
>> Thomas Heger wrote:
>>
>>> It is obviously a mutual relation and we see something remote
>>> vanishing in a black hole, this remote object would see us
>>> (Planet Earth) doing the same.
>>
>> It may be obvious to you. Nevertheless it is trivially false.
>>
> There exists a so called 'equivalence principle' in relativity.
>
> According to this, all inertial FoRs of equal rights.
That is also false. The equivalence principle, in its first meaning
in the context of general relativity, refers to an equivalence
between acceleration and gravitation in local regions of spacetime.
> obviously a mutual relation
Why not study the subject? Go find a spacetime diagram of a simple
black hole and learn to read it. Use Kruskal, Penrose, or whatever
kind you like. You'll learn there is clearly not a symmetry between
signals to and from an infalling observer crossing the horizon.
This *ought* to be evident from the fact that signals can cross the
horizon in one direction only. No event horizon exists near earth.
---Tim Shuba---
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| From | Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-16 07:48 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <d5se63Fh0q0U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #364215 |
Am 15.09.2015 22:23, schrieb shuba: > Thomas Heger wrote: > >> Am 14.09.2015 05:53, schrieb shuba: >>> Thomas Heger wrote: >>> >>>> It is obviously a mutual relation and we see something remote >>>> vanishing in a black hole, this remote object would see us >>>> (Planet Earth) doing the same. >>> >>> It may be obvious to you. Nevertheless it is trivially false. >>> >> There exists a so called 'equivalence principle' in relativity. >> >> According to this, all inertial FoRs of equal rights. > > That is also false. The equivalence principle, in its first meaning > in the context of general relativity, refers to an equivalence > between acceleration and gravitation in local regions of spacetime. > >> obviously a mutual relation > > Why not study the subject? Go find a spacetime diagram of a simple > black hole and learn to read it. Use Kruskal, Penrose, or whatever > kind you like. You'll learn there is clearly not a symmetry between > signals to and from an infalling observer crossing the horizon. > > This *ought* to be evident from the fact that signals can cross the > horizon in one direction only. No event horizon exists near earth. > You simply reject my explanation of 'event horizon' and 'black hole' and use an example, that could easily explained with my assumption. It goes like this: A black hole is actually a region with an axis of time pointing away from us. (Such a region I call 'time domain'.) If time is directed, then timely flow goes in one direction only (from past to future). Now we need to turn the axis of time into a spatial direction - say away from us. What ever is there (in that future direction), that cannot be seen, because we can only receive signals from the past, not from the future. This connection of time and space is what 'relativity ' means. And we could actually see such effects in the phenomenon we call 'black hole'. We could also see similar effects in all sorts of other cosmological observations. That's why I think, this is a valid assumption. E.g. we have red- and blue-shift. Also a jet could be interpreted this way or a galaxy. I have also written a longer version about this idea. It's a google.doc, that you find here: https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dd8jz2tx_3gfzvqgd6 TH
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| From | shuba <tim@sh.uba> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-16 09:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mtbduc$dhp$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #364258 |
Thomas Heger wrote:
> You simply reject my explanation of 'event horizon' and 'black hole'
> and use an example, that could easily explained with my assumption.
Your crank nonsense is entirely irrelevant to anything I've said,
which is in the context of standard general relativity.
> I have also written a longer version about this idea. It's a
> google.doc, that you find here:
>
> https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dd8jz2tx_3gfzvqgd6
I've seen it. It is incoherent junk. Not even physics.
---Tim Shuba---
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| From | Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2015-09-16 20:09 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <d5tpioFrpliU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #364265 |
Am 16.09.2015 11:49, schrieb shuba: > Thomas Heger wrote: > >> You simply reject my explanation of 'event horizon' and 'black hole' >> and use an example, that could easily explained with my assumption. > > Your crank nonsense is entirely irrelevant to anything I've said, > which is in the context of standard general relativity. I have delivered an alternative explanation for the phenomenon called 'black hole'. It is in fact based on GR, but on a special version, that uses complex-four-vectors instead of tensors. >> I have also written a longer version about this idea. It's a >> google.doc, that you find here: >> >> https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dd8jz2tx_3gfzvqgd6 > > I've seen it. It is incoherent junk. Not even physics. This isn't a very friendly comment. But still I think, my idea works quite well. And that's what physics is about. Whether you like it, that is quite irrelevant. Also coherence with other theories is not required, only validity in respect to natural phenomena. So you may not reject any idea, because it violates some kind of theory, since these theories are only as long regarded as valid knowledge, as long as they are are not falsified. (or replaced) TH
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