Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #474786

Re: How atomic clocks measure time

From	moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: How atomic clocks measure time
Date	2018-10-12 21:25 +0000
Organization	The World : www.TheWorld.com : Since 1989
Message-ID	<ppr3fc$t5c$1@pcls7.std.com> (permalink)
References	(32 earlier) <fcc40d63-df7c-4f78-8e21-7457787569dd@googlegroups.com> <ppoge7$q56$1@pcls7.std.com> <623df9ba-dae7-45f4-b0b0-b44398b3b4f6@googlegroups.com> <ppqq4m$mjc$1@pcls7.std.com> <c34874d3-c366-4843-87ca-7cc49c2db9ad@googlegroups.com>

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Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> writes:

>On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 1:45:47 PM UTC-5, Michael Moroney wrote:
>> Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> writes:
>> 
>> >"Atoms of cesium 133 happen to have two energy levels known as hyperfine states,
>> >which differ only in how the magnetic field of their outermost electron is
>> >aligned. The magnetic field of that electron can point either in the same
>> >direction as the magnetic field of the atom's nucleus or in the exact opposite
>> >direction, and these two possibilities are known as the hyperfine states."
>> 
>> >Source: http://discovermagazine.com/1996/dec/aclockmoreperfec938
>> 
>> >Magnets sort out the atoms based upon the magnetic fields of their outermost
>> >electrons.
>> 
>> So why did you write the following crap:
>> 
>> :1. Cesium is a liquid at room temperature, so the liquid is heated in an
>> :"oven" which turns the liquid into a gas.  The gas consists of atoms that
>> :are half negatively charged AND half positively charged.

>I'm not sure what your problem is.  Are you just complaining that I should 
>have written, "The gas consists of atoms that have different magnetic charges, 
>about half having a negative charge and half having a positive charge"?

"Magnetic charges" ? That is very, very wrong as well. The magnetic
monopole has never been detected.

I think you are either clueless about physics in general to write
something like that. Or perhaps you are like Ken Seto and invent your own
meanings for existing words and phrases. That is very bad as well since it
starts arguments about something when the two parties are simply talking
about completely different things.  "Charge" has a specific meaning when
discussing atoms, as does "magnetic charge", for something that doesn't
even exist.

There are many hyperfine states of the Cs atom. The two that are used in 
the clock are called the F_g=3, m_f=0 and the F_g=4, m_f=0 states.
(and since you want references, 
https://www.ptb.de/cms/fileadmin/internet/fachabteilungen/abteilung_4/4.4_zeit_und_frequenz/pdf/2003_Bauch_MST_CAC_VF_author_version.pdf, 
esp Figure 3)

Use standard terminology, or just state the atom changes state between the
two hyperfine levels.

>> >> >6.  A feedback mechanism then adjusts the microwave photon emitter to a higher
>> >> >or lower frequency, i.e., to 9,192,631,771 Hz or to 9,192,631,769 Hz.  Let's
>> >> >assume it is to the higher frequency.

>> >> WRONG. Due to some environmental variable, the oscillator drifts from
>> >> 9,192,631,770 Hz to 9,192,631,771 Hz.  Fewer Cs atoms transition to the
>> >> higher state. The slope of the count amount voltage is fed back as
>> >> negative feedback to the phase lock loop comparitor, which produces a
>> >> correction voltage to the frequency adjustment of the oscillator, which
>> >> DECREASES the frequency. That puts it back to 9,192,631,770 Hz. As this is
>> >> continuous, the frequency REMAINS ON the 9,192,631,770 Hz frequency.
>> >> Once again, a standard phase locked loop.
>> 
>> >The oscillator only drifts when it malfunctions.
>> 
>> WRONG. No electronic component is perfect, or even in the 100 parts per
>> trillion range which is what would be needed here. And if the oscillator
>> actually was stable to 100 parts per trillion, you wouldn't even need the
>> cesium, except perhaps for initial calibration!

>Correct, but then you couldn't use the clocks to verify time dilation.

Why not? If it was really that stable, it could.

>> >The atoms slow down or speed up depending upon their altitude and 
>> >velocity.  The oscillator is then adjusted
>> >to match the oscillation rate of the atoms.
>> 
>> This is your incorrect MISINTERPRETATION of what happens. It is just wrong!
>> Remember, if this was true, it would violate the first Postulate of
>> Relativity.

>No, it would just violate your screwball MISunderstanding of the First Postulate 
>of Relativity.

It is trivially easy to connect a voltmeter or frequency counter (not
based on a Cs clock) to measure the PLL feedback signal, and determine your
altitude. Thus different laws of physics (the ones controlling the signal
voltage) for different inertial states.  Therefore, your misunderstanding
violates the first postulate.  In a PLL, the feedback signal controls a
voltage controlled oscillator where the change in frequency is proportional
to the voltage.

>> >The purpose of an atomic clock is to have the oscillator match the oscillation
>> >rate of the cesium atoms.  The oscillator is ADJUSTED mechanically, the 
>> >atom's oscillation rate changes NATURALLY.
>> 
>> Cesium doesn't change oscillations, that is the ENTIRE POINT of using it!
>> No matter where you are, or where you get your cesium, a clock using it
>> will oscillate at 9,192,631,770 Hertz.

>Nope.  The point of using cesium in atomic clocks is that the clock will keep 
>very precise time AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT MOVE IT.

The Cs clocks in GPS orbits are moving many miles per second!
The H-K experiments flew Cs clocks on airliners!

>  Keating's job was to deliver 
>newly built atomic clocks to labs around America.  Every time he delivered 
>one he saw that the clock deviated from what the US Naval Observatory 
>clock was showing.  So, he'd have to reset it.

Yeah yeah, we all know about GR and its effects on clocks.

Keating knew about GR and decided he could verify it with his clocks.

>> >> >8.  If the frequency that resulted in the right number of atom conversions is
>> >> >9,192,631,771 Hz., that means the length of a second must be SHORTENED
>> 
>> WRONG! A second is DEFINED as 9,192,631,770 times the Cs oscillation period.

>A second is defined at equal to a cesium atom oscillating 9,192,631,770 times.

And that is a fixed constant, it NEVER changes locally, which is why it
was chosen.

>> If the clock osciallates at 9,192,631,771 Hz, it is just plain WRONG!

>The clock doesn't oscillate.  The atoms do and the microwave photons do.

Wrong. The atoms don't oscillate, photons don't, but the oscillator in the
clock does.

>When the atoms change their oscillation rate to 9,192,631,771 Hz, one 
>second still remains as a COUNT of 9,192,631,770 Hz.  The clock adjusts 
>to that new length for a second. 

Which means the clock itself is wrong! It changed! You wouldn't accept
length measurements by a rubber ruler, why do you believe in this rubber
second!

>> >> >the clock.  The feedback system adjusts the length of a second to be one
>> >> >tick less than previously.
>> 
>> WRONG! The feedback system is there to prevent the osciallator from 
>> drifting off frequency.

>The feedback system cannot "prevent" the oscillator from drifting, it can 
>only CORRECT the oscillator AFTER it has drifted, adjusting it back to 
>the correct rate needed to alter the atoms.

A properly designed PLL does not have the phase detector output signal
oscillating like that.  Once locked in, the oscillator is LOCKED onto the
reference signal. That is where the word "LOCKED" comes from in "phase
locked loop". If you measure the phase detector output voltage in a
properly operating PLL, you'll see it is a constant DC value if the
reference frequency is stable.  It means the VCO is in LOCKSTEP with the
reference.

>> Remember the description in one of those papers you misunderstand, where
>> the feedback is like constantly adjusting a radio tuner to keep the station
>> perfectly locked on? That's how phase locked loop circuits operate.

>Right.

>> >> WRONG. If the frequency is now at 9,192,631,771 Hz, the clock is AT THE
>> >> WRONG FREQUENCY so is now a bad clock! A second is DEFINED as 9,192,631,770
>> >> Hz, 9,192,631,771 Hz is WRONG.
>> 
>> >Right, the clock changes the length of a second so that
>> 
>> If the clock changes the length of a second, it is BROKEN, because a 
>> second is DEFINED as 9,192,631,770 cycles.

>A second is defined as a COUNT of 9,192,631,770 cycles.

A count of the cycles of a Cs-133 atom, something that NEVER CHANGES.
Which is why it was chosen.

>  When the cesium 
>atoms change their rate,

Which happens the day pigs start flying?

> the clock adjusts to keep that COUNT as a 
>measurement of one second.

>> >> I did tell you to look at the design specs of atomic clocks. I didn't
>> >> realize you'd misinterpret that so badly.
>> 
>> >Nothing you posted changes anything.  You are just stating YOUR OPINION.
>> >I've already told you many times I DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR OPINIONS.
>> 
>> This is not my opinion. This is from my education and experience as a
>> degreed electrical engineer, including the use and operation of phase
>> locked loops. I have DESIGNED phase locked loop circuits in the past. In
>> fact the operation of an atomic clock was actually USED AS AN EXAMPLE of
>> phase locked loops in a university course, and that has inspired my
>> responses here.

>And opinion is still just an opinion when it does nothing but state a 
>BELIEF.

It is not a belief. It is fact. I paid good money for an EE degree, and I
had to know that stuff to get it.  Documents are all over the net if you
search legitimate sources.

>  If you want to discuss the subject, then EXPLAIN WHAT IS WRONG 

I already did!

>AND WHAT IS RIGHT AND PROVIDE SOURCES, DO NOT JUST SAY IT IS WRONG BECAUSE
>IT CONFLICTS WITH YOUR BELIEFS.

I looked at several of the links in your "collection" and they ALL either
agree with what I wrote or don't state anything either way. You always
misinterpret stuff to agree with your beliefs (very common with those with
an idee fixe) so providing sources to you becomes an exercise in 
frustration. I will do so for the benefit of others.
The best example is your wild misinterpretation of Einstein's 1905 SR
paper, you wouldn't even accept his statements of the postulates in the
paper!

Thread

How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-03 13:38 -0700
  How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-03 14:19 -0700
  Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-03 21:40 +0000
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-04 08:26 -0700
      Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-04 17:24 +0000
        Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-04 13:36 -0700
          Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-04 21:33 +0000
            Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-05 07:00 -0700
              Re: How atomic clocks measure time Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-10-05 16:44 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-05 07:52 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-10-05 17:09 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-05 08:30 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-10-05 18:52 +0200
              Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-05 17:32 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-05 13:18 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-06 10:38 +0000
          Re: How atomic clocks measure time Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-10-05 02:02 +0200
            Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-05 07:08 -0700
              Re: How atomic clocks measure time Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-10-05 16:47 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-05 07:59 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-10-05 17:30 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-05 08:43 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-05 16:58 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-05 13:02 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-05 21:42 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-06 08:02 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-07 04:55 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 10:40 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-05 18:29 +0000
              Re: How atomic clocks measure time rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 07:48 -0700
          Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-05 00:46 +0000
            Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-05 07:15 -0700
              Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-05 16:26 +0000
          Re: How atomic clocks measure time rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 19:10 -0700
      Re: How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-04 17:35 -0700
      Re: How atomic clocks measure time "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2018-10-04 18:46 -0700
  How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-03 14:41 -0700
  Re: How atomic clocks measure time Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-03 18:17 -0400
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-10-03 21:57 -0700
      Re: How atomic clocks measure time Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-10-04 07:06 +0200
        Re: How atomic clocks measure time Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-10-04 07:08 +0200
        Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-04 22:57 +0000
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-04 09:01 -0700
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-04 17:28 +0000
  Re:How atomic clocks measure time Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-10-04 00:26 +0200
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 05:23 +0000
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-04 09:15 -0700
      Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-04 09:45 -0700
        Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-10-04 10:23 -0700
          Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-04 13:23 -0700
  Re: How atomic clocks measure time "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-10-04 08:50 +0200
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 08:57 -0700
      Re: How atomic clocks measure time "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-10-04 19:54 +0200
        Re: How atomic clocks measure time Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-10-04 21:51 -0700
          Re: How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-05 01:26 -0700
          Re: How atomic clocks measure time "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-10-08 13:49 +0200
            Re: How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-08 05:08 -0700
            Re: How atomic clocks measure time Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 13:15 -0700
              Re: How atomic clocks measure time "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-10-09 09:22 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-09 03:36 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-10-09 06:56 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-09 16:42 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-10-09 12:48 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-10-10 09:32 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 09:37 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tc> - 2018-10-10 19:11 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-10-11 14:03 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-10-11 10:07 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-10-11 21:30 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-10-11 13:08 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-11 13:55 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-10-12 15:36 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 21:45 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-10-13 11:34 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-10-13 09:44 -0700
        Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-05 18:40 +0000
  Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-04 13:53 -0700
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-05 01:06 +0000
      Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-05 07:29 -0700
        Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-05 07:44 -0700
        Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-05 16:35 +0000
          Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-05 10:01 -0700
            Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-05 17:13 +0000
              Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-05 13:17 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-05 22:06 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-05 19:38 -0400
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-05 17:50 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-05 18:06 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-05 18:24 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-06 11:02 -0500
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-06 09:34 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-06 18:43 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-06 10:08 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-06 16:18 -0500
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-06 15:10 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-07 00:47 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-06 16:02 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-07 00:31 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-06 22:38 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-07 00:54 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-06 23:09 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-06 15:55 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-06 10:37 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-06 09:53 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-06 16:30 -0500
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-07 09:06 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-07 16:35 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-07 10:26 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-07 20:32 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-07 13:52 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-07 21:31 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 22:13 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-08 05:22 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 13:21 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-08 06:32 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 13:40 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-08 06:45 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-08 07:27 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-08 17:21 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-08 13:19 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-08 21:29 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-09 07:12 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-09 07:30 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-10-09 09:03 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-09 18:22 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-09 13:56 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-09 22:15 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-10-10 07:39 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-10 08:32 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-10-10 09:04 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-10 09:47 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 10:49 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-10-10 13:29 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-10 21:19 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-11 07:26 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-11 15:11 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-11 09:10 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-11 09:16 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-10-11 09:59 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-11 13:50 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-10-11 14:01 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-12 07:42 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-11 21:47 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-12 08:06 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-12 18:45 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-12 12:09 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-12 13:20 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-12 21:25 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-13 03:03 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-13 09:25 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-13 10:29 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-13 18:10 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-10-11 15:49 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-10-11 17:27 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-10-11 17:43 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-12 08:30 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-12 09:41 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-12 18:50 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-12 13:30 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-12 08:24 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-10-12 10:13 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-12 08:38 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-12 18:59 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-12 13:42 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-10-13 11:10 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-11 19:51 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-11 13:52 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-11 13:56 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-11 02:33 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-10 21:22 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-11 07:42 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-10 12:19 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-10 08:57 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-10-07 14:55 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-08 07:35 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-08 08:04 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-08 17:24 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-08 10:43 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-08 13:24 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-08 21:36 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-10-08 11:59 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-08 12:02 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-08 14:02 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 14:30 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-09 02:45 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 23:41 -0400
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-08 22:56 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-06 08:24 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-07 05:09 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-07 09:34 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-07 20:17 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 08:28 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-08 09:18 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 10:55 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-08 13:56 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-08 19:46 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 11:01 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-08 20:26 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tc> - 2018-10-08 18:02 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-08 20:29 +0200
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-08 11:44 -0700
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-10-05 17:01 -0400
      Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-05 14:26 -0700
        Re: How atomic clocks measure time Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@notmail.com> - 2018-10-06 01:03 +0200
        Re: How atomic clocks measure time rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 18:15 -0700
        Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-10-06 07:42 -0700
          Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-06 08:47 -0700
            Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-10-06 09:45 -0700
              Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-06 10:35 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-06 17:56 +0000
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 12:50 -0700
                Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-06 13:16 -0700
            Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-07 05:17 +0000
          Re: How atomic clocks measure time Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 12:32 -0700
            Re: How atomic clocks measure time Paul Gish <uop@uwrwuao.tt> - 2018-10-06 19:43 +0000
        Re: How atomic clocks measure time Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 08:48 -0700
          Re: How atomic clocks measure time Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-08 19:56 +0200
  Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-05 09:02 -0700
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 08:10 -0700
      Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-08 09:01 -0700
        Re: How atomic clocks measure time rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 09:56 -0700
        Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-08 17:31 +0000
          Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-08 13:37 -0700
            Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-08 21:48 +0000
              Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-09 07:32 -0700
        Re: How atomic clocks measure time Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 10:52 -0700
          Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-08 13:54 -0700
  Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-06 09:30 -0700
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 21:57 +0000
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-07 05:24 +0000
  Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-06 13:25 -0700
  Re: How atomic clocks measure time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-10-06 13:47 -0700
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 21:57 +0000
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-10-06 15:06 -0700
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2018-10-07 05:27 +0000
    Re: How atomic clocks measure time Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-10-07 14:51 +0200
      Re: How atomic clocks measure time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-10-07 08:22 -0700

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