Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #367122

Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation

From	moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation
Date	2015-10-15 04:16 +0000
Organization	The World : www.TheWorld.com : Since 1989
Message-ID	<mvn9a6$o40$1@pcls7.std.com> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <4282f247-5b9b-4708-ab34-e435810c9ad6@googlegroups.com> <mviu8l$fui$1@speranza.aioe.org> <dcba9e9b-7565-4e3d-b99a-ca0a507f9e45@googlegroups.com> <32dc8fc3-affe-4fdd-91d0-2e8b82c1de06@googlegroups.com> <697c1d2c-ea50-40a8-87d0-4a5015e045a8@googlegroups.com>

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kenseto <setoken@att.net> writes:

>On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 8:54:12 AM UTC-4, Gary Harnagel wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 6:37:19 AM UTC-6, kenseto wrote:
>> >
>> > The GPS shows that the SR effect is not mutual....the SR effect on the GPS
>> > is 7us/day running slower than the ground clock. That means that the SR
>> > effect on any two clocks is not mutual.
>> 
>> Technically, the total effect is ALL GR, not SR, but the GR effect can be
>> separated into a speed part and a gravitational part.  For the GPS, the
>> gravitational part is 45 us/day and the speed part is -7 us/day,
>> making the net amount 38 us/day.
>> 
>> Mutual time dilation can be measured by having an observer on the
>> satellite observing the ground clock.  Relativity predicts that the speed
>> part will still be -7 us/day but the gravitational part will be -45 us/day,
>> for a total of 52 us/day.

>Wrong....the speed part is +7us/day and the gravitational effect
>is -45us/day for a total of -38us/day.

The GPS system is a GR problem.  I'm not sure if it's 100% accurate to try
to divide it into a motion-only SR problem and a gravitational field only
GR problem, but here goes.

Since the satellite sees the earth's surface as in motion, the speed part
will be -7 us/day.  Since the satellite is at a higher gravitational
potential than the earth's surface, this will produce a dilation of -45
us/day.  Note that the sign is opposite what it is for the gravitational
effect from the earth's surface.  -7 us/day plus -45 us/day = -52 us/day.

As to any satellite observers, the satellite itself gets sent commands
from the earth, so the satellite's radio receiver itself is an observer
of earth's radio commands.  Any high precision timing signals will have to
account for this -52 us/day effect.

Thread

Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-12 06:25 -0700
  Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Euclid Baumann <eubaum@parallelnetwork.org> - 2015-10-12 13:43 +0000
    Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-12 07:24 -0700
      Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@hotspam.not> - 2015-10-12 19:44 +0200
  Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-10-12 10:31 -0500
    Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Euclid Baumann <eubaum@parallelnetwork.org> - 2015-10-12 17:21 +0000
      Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Euclid Baumann <eubaum@parallelnetwork.org> - 2015-10-12 17:22 +0000
      Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Euclid Baumann <eubaum@parallelnetwork.org> - 2015-10-12 17:24 +0000
    Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2015-10-12 10:35 -0700
    Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-12 12:44 -0700
      Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-10-12 22:20 -0500
        Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-14 05:57 -0700
          Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-10-14 15:21 -0400
            Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-14 12:49 -0700
        Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation alsor@interia.pl - 2015-10-22 06:04 -0700
          Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-10-22 11:22 -0700
    Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-12 21:23 -0700
      Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-12 21:28 -0700
  Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-10-12 10:40 -0500
    Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-12 12:17 -0700
      Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-10-12 16:34 -0700
      Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-10-13 07:43 -0500
        Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-14 05:37 -0700
          Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-14 05:54 -0700
            Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-14 12:58 -0700
              Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-14 13:18 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-15 06:35 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-15 06:55 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-10-15 17:46 +0200
              Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-10-15 04:16 +0000
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-15 06:01 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-10-15 13:17 +0000
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-15 09:12 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-10-15 17:30 +0000
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-10-16 10:15 -0500
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Euclid Baumann <eubaum@parallelnetwork.org> - 2015-10-16 15:23 +0000
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-10-17 09:09 -0500
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Euclid Baumann <eubaum@parallelnetwork.org> - 2015-10-17 14:37 +0000
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2015-10-16 09:50 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-16 09:48 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2015-10-16 18:06 +0000
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-10-16 14:49 -0400
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Euclid Baumann <eubaum@parallelnetwork.org> - 2015-10-16 19:25 +0000
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-10-16 15:05 -0500
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2015-10-16 13:14 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-10-16 18:34 -0400
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-10-17 09:19 -0500
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2015-10-17 12:25 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-10-17 11:15 -0500
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-10-17 18:45 +0200
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation alsor@interia.pl - 2015-10-22 07:39 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-10-22 11:23 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-16 19:30 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-10-25 07:27 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-10-25 07:34 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Juan Esteban <esteju@freecannabis.org> - 2015-10-25 15:17 +0000
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-10-25 18:48 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation fuller.david@hotmail.com - 2015-10-25 19:04 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-10-16 10:05 -0500
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-10-16 18:14 +0200
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2015-10-16 09:42 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-16 10:04 -0700
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-10-17 09:29 -0500
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2015-10-17 17:06 +0200
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-18 09:07 -0700
          Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2015-10-14 08:50 -0500
          Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2015-10-14 22:19 -0500
            Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2015-10-14 20:28 -0700
            Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-15 06:20 -0700
            Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-16 19:18 -0700
  Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2015-10-12 08:58 -0700
  Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation alsor@interia.pl - 2015-10-12 17:22 -0700
  Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2015-10-12 17:56 -0700
    Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2015-10-13 06:28 -0700
    Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2015-10-13 08:40 -0700
      Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@hotspam.not> - 2015-10-14 09:07 +0200
    Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-10-16 19:15 -0700
      Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2015-10-18 09:33 -0700
        Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-10-25 06:07 -0700
          Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation shuba <tim@sh.uba> - 2015-10-25 19:16 +0000
            Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-10-26 05:09 -0700
              Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation kefischer <emoneyjoe@iglou.com> - 2015-10-26 08:21 -0400
              Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation shuba <tim@sh.uba> - 2015-10-26 21:41 +0000
                Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2015-10-26 19:28 -0700
          Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> - 2015-10-26 08:52 -0700
  Re: Testing of SR mutual time dilation John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-12 20:59 -0700

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