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Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler

From	whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler
Date	2023-07-13 00:48 -0500
Message-ID	<kh9hhoF8ugpU3@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <7a157400-d3d7-4f2b-a661-0c65e67d06dan@googlegroups.com> <kh9bbuF8bo4U1@mid.individual.net> <edd32cdc-bb42-4481-9e99-bf70b7987644n@googlegroups.com> <kh9d6oF8me7U1@mid.individual.net> <aaf23917-daff-43a0-8d47-e62a35b52975n@googlegroups.com>

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On 7/12/2023 11:36 PM, patdolan wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 9:34:37 PM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 13-July-23 2:08 pm, patdolan wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 9:03:14 PM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>> On 13-July-23 1:55 pm, patdolan wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 8:18:23 PM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>>> On 13-July-23 1:50 am, patdolan wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 5:11:28 AM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12-July-23 5:13 pm, patdolan wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:00:44 AM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 12-July-23 5:19 am, patdolan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 11:19:42 AM UTC-7, Tom Roberts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/11/23 11:14 AM, patdolan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> An interplanetary traveler takes off from the earth for a twenty year
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (proper time) out and back trip at .867c relative to Big Ben in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> London. The traveler keeps his video recording camera trained on Big
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben for the entire trip. Will the twin paradox answer reconcile with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the what the rocket ship video recording at the end of the trip?
>>>>>>>>>>>> THINK about what you are asking: will a gedenkenexperiment formulated
>>>>>>>>>>>> using SR reconcile with the predictions of SR? -- OF COURSE IT WILL!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Famous last words, Tom Roberts. AFAIK, no one has ever performed the independent calculations.
>>>>>>>>>> You seriously think that no one has looked at that? Of course they have.
>>>>>>>>>> But nothing of interest came out of it, so you don't hear about it. If
>>>>>>>>>> it led to a contradiction, SR would have been abandoned long ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You really need to learn basic logic and modes of thought, in addition
>>>>>>>>>>>> to very basic physics.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom Roberts
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I say the accumulated time on Big Ben for the round trip according to 1/gamma WILL NOT tally with the elapsed time shown by BB on the rocket's video. Prove me wrong. I would do it, but I'm busy today interviewing potential body guards.
>>>>>>>>>> If you're convinced a priori that there's a problem, then the work
>>>>>>>>>> required to follow someone else's algebra will exceed what you would
>>>>>>>>>> need to do it yourself. Always assuming, of course, that you're capable.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sylvia.
>>>>>>>>> I have done the work. Two posts up. SR provides two methods to compute the proper and coordinate duration of the traveling twin's flight. The LT time dilation formula ∆t' = ∆t/gamma is in conflict with with the relativistic doppler formulae when applied to a the twins paradox.
>>>>>>>> There is no Lorentz Transformation time dilation formula. Time dilation
>>>>>>>> is a popular-science special case of the Lorentz Transformation that
>>>>>>>> many people, including you, end up misapplying.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sylvia.
>>>>>>> Okay Sylvia Else, I'll take you at your word and accept that there is some non-populist, gnostic method in which to apply the LTs in this situation that reconciles them with the rel-dop equations. And furthermore, I'll admit that as a populist, I don't understand that method. Am I condemned to wander the earth for the rest of my life in ignorance of the correct method or will you teach it to me?
>>>>>> The problem is that you're trying to criticise something that is not
>>>>>> part of Special Relativity (SR) for not being consistent with SR. That
>>>>>> popular-science time dilation does not work in this context is no great
>>>>>> surprise, and just means that this particular popular science
>>>>>> representation of SR is wrong, not that there's anything amiss with SR.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for teaching you, a correct analysis of the scenario requires
>>>>>> transformation (using the Lorentz Transform) of the time at Big Ben,
>>>>>> between the frame of the space craft just before it reverses direction
>>>>>> to the frame just after it reverses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sylvia.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sylvia, you continually refer to a gnostic argument that will prove the twins true. Yet you quail at producing it.
>>>> No, I was not seeking to prove the twin paradox true. I was showing you
>>>> that your approach to proving it false was misconceived.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has been characteristic of the history of relativity that arguments against the twins paradox are simple, terse, cogent and powerful. No such argument exists in favor of the twins paradox. It has been this way for over 100 years. Witness the foolish Prokary as he carefully picks and chooses the most plausible and least laughable explanation. As with Darwinism, a younger and more skeptical generation is rejecting the specious arguments of relativity. Damned old Legion is almost unreadable with all his ad hoc inventions: "skew of simultaneity", "temporal foliations", etc. I am very readable and very unanswerable, as your own reticence (see above) testifies to. To whom will the young physicist of the future eventually rally to?
>>>>>
>>>> So, having had your previous objection demolished, you shift your
>>>> ground, and in the process become even less intelligible.
>>>>
>>>> Sylvia.
>>> Nothing has been proved by you, Sylvia. You have merely alluded to a proof but never typed it out line by line. I claim that no such proof exists. Prove me wrong.
>> Do you have difficulty understanding "I was not seeking to prove..." ?
>>
>> Sylvia.
> Yes, I know.  A person with no proof does not seek to prove.

What I said.

Thread

Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 09:14 -0700
  Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-07-11 13:19 -0500
    Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 12:19 -0700
      Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-07-11 14:31 -0500
        Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 12:55 -0700
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-07-11 16:03 -0500
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 09:41 +0200
            Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 00:53 -0700
            Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 02:28 -0700
              Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 02:38 -0700
              Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 12:12 +0200
      Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-12 17:00 +1000
        Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 00:13 -0700
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-12 22:11 +1000
            Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 05:16 -0700
            Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 08:50 -0700
              Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 16:44 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 17:08 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 17:55 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 18:00 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 18:05 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 18:17 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 18:21 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 21:11 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 22:01 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 22:11 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 23:17 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 00:03 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 09:50 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 11:46 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 12:20 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 14:39 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 15:41 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 16:53 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 17:35 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 17:49 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 17:53 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 18:30 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 18:33 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 22:32 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 19:28 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 19:38 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 19:58 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 02:50 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 04:45 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 05:08 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-14 14:22 -0400
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 11:26 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-14 18:21 -0400
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 16:28 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-15 19:48 -0400
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-15 16:54 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-16 08:34 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-16 08:42 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-16 16:08 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-16 16:49 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-16 22:17 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-17 00:15 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-17 01:44 -0400
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-16 22:57 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-17 02:50 -0400
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Mitchell Demas <letl@alliecim.he> - 2023-07-17 09:28 +0000
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-17 00:08 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Newton Patselas <nale@lsawttnp.no> - 2023-07-17 09:54 +0000
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-16 10:05 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 11:30 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 06:32 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 07:43 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 09:39 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 09:48 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 10:56 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 19:15 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 19:50 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 20:02 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 23:35 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 23:50 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-15 06:21 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-15 16:50 -0700
              Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-13 13:18 +1000
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 20:55 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-13 14:03 +1000
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 21:08 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-13 14:34 +1000
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 21:36 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-07-13 00:48 -0500
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-07-13 00:47 -0500
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Teofilo Totolos <tltt@tooioltt.lo> - 2023-07-12 13:58 +0000
    Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 14:29 -0700
      Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2023-07-11 19:04 -0700
        Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 19:09 -0700
      Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-11 21:19 -0700
      Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-11 21:23 -0700
        Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-11 22:20 -0700
        Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 22:58 -0700
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 23:10 -0700
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-12 20:37 +1000
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 04:32 -0700
            Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 04:39 -0700
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-07-12 11:37 +0000
        Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 06:01 -0700
  Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Jack Liu <liuedy@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 02:42 -0700

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