Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #615141

Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler

From whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com>
Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Subject Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler
Date 2023-07-13 00:47 -0500
Message-ID <kh9hg9F8ugpU2@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References (7 earlier) <kh98nqF7sfhU1@mid.individual.net> <7a157400-d3d7-4f2b-a661-0c65e67d06dan@googlegroups.com> <kh9bbuF8bo4U1@mid.individual.net> <edd32cdc-bb42-4481-9e99-bf70b7987644n@googlegroups.com> <kh9d6oF8me7U1@mid.individual.net>

Show all headers | View raw

On 7/12/2023 11:34 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 13-July-23 2:08 pm, patdolan wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 9:03:14 PM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> On 13-July-23 1:55 pm, patdolan wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 8:18:23 PM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>> On 13-July-23 1:50 am, patdolan wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 5:11:28 AM UTC-7, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12-July-23 5:13 pm, patdolan wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, July 12, 2023 at 12:00:44 AM UTC-7, Sylvia Else 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12-July-23 5:19 am, patdolan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 11:19:42 AM UTC-7, Tom Roberts 
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/11/23 11:14 AM, patdolan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> An interplanetary traveler takes off from the earth for a 
>>>>>>>>>>>> twenty year
>>>>>>>>>>>> (proper time) out and back trip at .867c relative to Big Ben in
>>>>>>>>>>>> London. The traveler keeps his video recording camera 
>>>>>>>>>>>> trained on Big
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben for the entire trip. Will the twin paradox answer 
>>>>>>>>>>>> reconcile with
>>>>>>>>>>>> the what the rocket ship video recording at the end of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> trip?
>>>>>>>>>>> THINK about what you are asking: will a gedenkenexperiment 
>>>>>>>>>>> formulated
>>>>>>>>>>> using SR reconcile with the predictions of SR? -- OF COURSE 
>>>>>>>>>>> IT WILL!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Famous last words, Tom Roberts. AFAIK, no one has ever 
>>>>>>>>>> performed the independent calculations.
>>>>>>>>> You seriously think that no one has looked at that? Of course 
>>>>>>>>> they have.
>>>>>>>>> But nothing of interest came out of it, so you don't hear about 
>>>>>>>>> it. If
>>>>>>>>> it led to a contradiction, SR would have been abandoned long ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You really need to learn basic logic and modes of thought, in 
>>>>>>>>>>> addition
>>>>>>>>>>> to very basic physics.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tom Roberts
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I say the accumulated time on Big Ben for the round trip 
>>>>>>>>>> according to 1/gamma WILL NOT tally with the elapsed time 
>>>>>>>>>> shown by BB on the rocket's video. Prove me wrong. I would do 
>>>>>>>>>> it, but I'm busy today interviewing potential body guards.
>>>>>>>>> If you're convinced a priori that there's a problem, then the work
>>>>>>>>> required to follow someone else's algebra will exceed what you 
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> need to do it yourself. Always assuming, of course, that you're 
>>>>>>>>> capable.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sylvia.
>>>>>>>> I have done the work. Two posts up. SR provides two methods to 
>>>>>>>> compute the proper and coordinate duration of the traveling 
>>>>>>>> twin's flight. The LT time dilation formula ∆t' = ∆t/gamma is in 
>>>>>>>> conflict with with the relativistic doppler formulae when 
>>>>>>>> applied to a the twins paradox.
>>>>>>> There is no Lorentz Transformation time dilation formula. Time 
>>>>>>> dilation
>>>>>>> is a popular-science special case of the Lorentz Transformation that
>>>>>>> many people, including you, end up misapplying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sylvia.
>>>>>> Okay Sylvia Else, I'll take you at your word and accept that there 
>>>>>> is some non-populist, gnostic method in which to apply the LTs in 
>>>>>> this situation that reconciles them with the rel-dop equations. 
>>>>>> And furthermore, I'll admit that as a populist, I don't understand 
>>>>>> that method. Am I condemned to wander the earth for the rest of my 
>>>>>> life in ignorance of the correct method or will you teach it to me?
>>>>> The problem is that you're trying to criticise something that is not
>>>>> part of Special Relativity (SR) for not being consistent with SR. That
>>>>> popular-science time dilation does not work in this context is no 
>>>>> great
>>>>> surprise, and just means that this particular popular science
>>>>> representation of SR is wrong, not that there's anything amiss with 
>>>>> SR.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for teaching you, a correct analysis of the scenario requires
>>>>> transformation (using the Lorentz Transform) of the time at Big Ben,
>>>>> between the frame of the space craft just before it reverses direction
>>>>> to the frame just after it reverses.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sylvia.
>>>>
>>>> Sylvia, you continually refer to a gnostic argument that will prove 
>>>> the twins true. Yet you quail at producing it.
>>> No, I was not seeking to prove the twin paradox true. I was showing you
>>> that your approach to proving it false was misconceived.
>>>>
>>>> It has been characteristic of the history of relativity that 
>>>> arguments against the twins paradox are simple, terse, cogent and 
>>>> powerful. No such argument exists in favor of the twins paradox. It 
>>>> has been this way for over 100 years. Witness the foolish Prokary as 
>>>> he carefully picks and chooses the most plausible and least 
>>>> laughable explanation. As with Darwinism, a younger and more 
>>>> skeptical generation is rejecting the specious arguments of 
>>>> relativity. Damned old Legion is almost unreadable with all his ad 
>>>> hoc inventions: "skew of simultaneity", "temporal foliations", etc. 
>>>> I am very readable and very unanswerable, as your own reticence (see 
>>>> above) testifies to. To whom will the young physicist of the future 
>>>> eventually rally to?
>>>>
>>> So, having had your previous objection demolished, you shift your
>>> ground, and in the process become even less intelligible.
>>>
>>> Sylvia.
>> Nothing has been proved by you, Sylvia.  You have merely alluded to a 
>> proof but never typed it out line by line.  I claim that no such proof 
>> exists.  Prove me wrong.
> 
> Do you have difficulty understanding "I was not seeking to prove..." ?

Simple: Dolan wants desperately to be top dog. No, it makes no sense at
all.

Back to sci.physics.relativity | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 09:14 -0700
  Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Tom Roberts <tjoberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2023-07-11 13:19 -0500
    Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 12:19 -0700
      Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-07-11 14:31 -0500
        Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 12:55 -0700
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-07-11 16:03 -0500
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 09:41 +0200
            Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 00:53 -0700
            Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 02:28 -0700
              Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 02:38 -0700
              Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 12:12 +0200
      Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-12 17:00 +1000
        Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 00:13 -0700
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-12 22:11 +1000
            Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 05:16 -0700
            Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 08:50 -0700
              Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 16:44 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 17:08 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 17:55 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 18:00 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 18:05 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 18:17 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 18:21 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 21:11 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 22:01 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 22:11 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 23:17 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 00:03 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 09:50 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 11:46 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 12:20 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 14:39 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 15:41 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 16:53 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 17:35 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 17:49 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 17:53 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 18:30 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 18:33 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 22:32 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 19:28 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-13 19:38 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Prokaryotic Capase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 19:58 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 02:50 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 04:45 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 05:08 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-14 14:22 -0400
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 11:26 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-14 18:21 -0400
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 16:28 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-15 19:48 -0400
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-15 16:54 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-16 08:34 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-16 08:42 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-16 16:08 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-16 16:49 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-16 22:17 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-17 00:15 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-17 01:44 -0400
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-16 22:57 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Volney <volney@invalid.invalid> - 2023-07-17 02:50 -0400
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Mitchell Demas <letl@alliecim.he> - 2023-07-17 09:28 +0000
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-17 00:08 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Newton Patselas <nale@lsawttnp.no> - 2023-07-17 09:54 +0000
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-16 10:05 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 11:30 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 06:32 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 07:43 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 09:39 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 09:48 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 10:56 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 19:15 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 19:50 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-14 20:02 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 23:35 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-14 23:50 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-15 06:21 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Bill <davos2329@gmail.com> - 2023-07-15 16:50 -0700
              Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-13 13:18 +1000
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 20:55 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-13 14:03 +1000
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 21:08 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-13 14:34 +1000
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-12 21:36 -0700
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-07-13 00:48 -0500
                Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2023-07-13 00:47 -0500
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Teofilo Totolos <tltt@tooioltt.lo> - 2023-07-12 13:58 +0000
    Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 14:29 -0700
      Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler "Dono." <eggy20011951@gmail.com> - 2023-07-11 19:04 -0700
        Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 19:09 -0700
      Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-11 21:19 -0700
      Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-11 21:23 -0700
        Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-11 22:20 -0700
        Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 22:58 -0700
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler patdolan <patdolan@comcast.net> - 2023-07-11 23:10 -0700
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> - 2023-07-12 20:37 +1000
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 04:32 -0700
            Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 04:39 -0700
          Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Richard Hachel <r.hachel@frite.fr> - 2023-07-12 11:37 +0000
        Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2023-07-12 06:01 -0700
  Re: Reconciling the Time Dilation and Relativistic Doppler Jack Liu <liuedy@gmail.com> - 2023-07-13 02:42 -0700

csiph-web