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Re: a thought on the garage paradox

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On 31/08/2016 11:45 AM, benj wrote:
> On 8/30/2016 9:23 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 31/08/2016 7:28 AM, RichD wrote:
>>> On August 29, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>>>> Let's consider the Corvette in the garage scenario, again -
>>>>>>> The Vette drives through at high speed, it fits inside,
>>>>>>> or not, the garage is too shallow, the usual.
>>>>>>> To be specific, irrespective of particular numbers:
>>>>>>> The garage doors are oriented north-south, normally
>>>>>>> open, the car approaches from the south.
>>>>>>> The garage's center point is clearly marked.  The
>>>>>>> driver is centered within the vehicle.  Two cameras
>>>>>>> are posted at the driver's seat, facing fore and aft.
>>>>>>> I)    In the garage frame:
>>>>>>>       The car approaches, enters, then completely inside.
>>>>>>> Both doors close simultaneously at the moment the driver
>>>>>>> passes the center, then very quickly open, and the car transits.
>>>>>>> II)   In the Corvette's frame:
>>>>>>>       The car is stationary, the garage approaches
>>>>>>> (so to speak), the open front door rolls over the
>>>>>>> front fender, the rear door closes, then quickly
>>>>>>> opens. The driver passes the center; at this moment,
>>>>>>> the car extends through both open doorways, by equal
>>>>>>> amount.  The Vette continues forward, the rear fender
>>>>>>> crosses through the front doorway, which then closes, etc.
>>>>>>> So far, so standard.
>>>>>>> Now, what do the cameras record?
>>>>>>> In particular, what goes on film, at the instant the
>>>>>>> driver hits the center point?
>>>>>>> Facing north, the camera sees the front fender interior
>>>>>>> to the garage... it must be so, for logical consistency.
>>>>>>> However, facing south, I don't see any such tautology;
>>>>>>> it appears the rear fender may be seen either in or
>>>>>>> outside the garage.
>>>>>>> Thus the analysis indicates an unexpected asymmetry.
>>>>
>>>>>> You don't seem to made any allowance for the time it takes for
>>>>>> light to get from the event being observed and arriving at the
>>>>>> camera.
>>>>
>>>>> huh?
>>>>> Of course I do, that's the crux of the biscuit.
>>>>
>>>>>> I posted an mathematical analysis of the barn and pole paradox with
>>>>>> cameras some while back
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.physics.relativity/iuBoRUD4-kE/bF0BsiTDWAUJ>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and showed that everything works out fine.
>>>>
>>>>> Your memo is vague on camera placement, and number.
>>>>
>>>> It clearly states that the ones attached to the barn are midway between
>>>> the doors,
>>>
>>> No it doesn't:
>>> "...  attach video cameras to the barn and to the
>>> pole (a pair each, pointing towards the opposite ends of the barn and
>>> pole respectively)"
>>>
>>> That's "clear", only if a reader hallucinates alongside you.
>>>
>>>
>>>> and the the ones attached to the pole are a distance 40 *
>>>> sqrt(3/4) metres behind the centre of the pole.
>>>
>>> ... after some tortured arithmetic.
>>>
>>> And your example isn't symmetrical, as mine clearly is,
>>> hence doesn't answer my point of asymmetry in the result.
>>> Just some hand waving about a barn and some cameras.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rich
>>>
>>
>> If you can't discuss this without being aggressive, I can't see why I
>> should bother with you. By all means go on being mistaken, it's no skin
>> off my nose.
>>
>> Sylvia.
>
> Come on Sylvia. Quit pretending you don't care. There is a lot at stake
> here: The "who is smarter than Einstein" prize for 2016!

Well, he might think so.

I find it difficult to express just how much I despise people who use 
aggression as a debating tactic.

Sylvia.

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a thought on the garage paradox RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2016-08-24 15:31 -0700
  Re: a thought on the garage paradox Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-08-25 02:52 +0200
    Re: a thought on the garage paradox mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2016-08-24 23:35 -0700
      Re: a thought on the garage paradox Python <python@org.invalid> - 2016-08-25 12:20 +0200
        Re: a thought on the garage paradox mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2016-08-25 03:33 -0700
          Re: a thought on the garage paradox John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2016-08-29 19:55 -0700
            Re: a thought on the garage paradox John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2016-08-29 19:59 -0700
              Re: a thought on the garage paradox John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2016-08-29 20:02 -0700
      Re: a thought on the garage paradox JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2016-08-29 15:49 -0700
        Re: a thought on the garage paradox Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-08-30 10:34 +0200
          Re: a thought on the garage paradox mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2016-08-30 01:48 -0700
            Re: a thought on the garage paradox JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2016-08-30 11:38 -0700
              Re: a thought on the garage paradox mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2016-08-30 23:13 -0700
                Re: a thought on the garage paradox JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2016-09-01 11:51 -0700
                Re: a thought on the garage paradox Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2016-09-01 22:08 +0200
                Re: a thought on the garage paradox JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2016-09-01 15:25 -0700
    Re: a thought on the garage paradox RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2016-08-27 20:55 -0700
      Re: a thought on the garage paradox Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-08-28 06:44 +0200
      Re: a thought on the garage paradox Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-08-28 07:05 +0200
      Re: a thought on the garage paradox Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-08-28 07:48 +0200
  Re: a thought on the garage paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-08-28 22:35 +1000
    Re: a thought on the garage paradox "David (Time Lord) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-28 08:51 -0700
      Re: a thought on the garage paradox "David (Time Lord) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-28 09:05 -0700
        Re: a thought on the garage paradox "David (Time Lord) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-28 09:26 -0700
    Re: a thought on the garage paradox RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2016-08-29 15:04 -0700
      Re: a thought on the garage paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-08-30 12:42 +1000
        Re: a thought on the garage paradox RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2016-08-30 14:28 -0700
          Re: a thought on the garage paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-08-31 11:23 +1000
            Re: a thought on the garage paradox benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2016-08-30 21:45 -0400
              Re: a thought on the garage paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-08-31 12:20 +1000
                Re: a thought on the garage paradox mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2016-08-30 23:15 -0700
                Re: a thought on the garage paradox RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-01 11:12 -0700
                Re: a thought on the garage paradox Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2016-09-02 13:46 +1000
  a thought on the garage paradox "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2016-09-02 08:31 -0700
    Re: a thought on the garage paradox Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@hotspam.not> - 2016-09-02 19:03 +0200
      Re: a thought on the garage paradox "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2016-09-02 16:58 -0700
        Re: a thought on the garage paradox "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2016-09-02 19:32 -0700
          Re: a thought on the garage paradox "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2016-09-02 20:00 -0700

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