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| From | Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.physics.relativity, sci.math |
| Subject | NACK retransmission might double Manhattan Distance (Was: He uses "FIFO objects", and DMA and Noc) |
| Date | 2026-08-01 14:22 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <114kodf$pkdq$1@solani.org> (permalink) |
| References | (19 earlier) <113tt09$57ue$1@dont-email.me> <113vmkq$bed5$3@solani.org> <114kcni$3fhj3$1@dont-email.me> <114kcsr$3fhj3$2@dont-email.me> <114kg39$ouvh$1@solani.org> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
Hi,
As easy as queues and FIFO objects might
sound. They don't like congestion. NACK for
retransmission might double the Manhattan Distance:
You have not only start
S to end E communication:
+----E
|
|
S
You might also have ACK or NACK
from E or midpoints back to S:
S'
+
+
E'
Ok, I made that up, I have no idea what a flit is,
when the author wrote this here:
"Packet flits are held in the FIFO which can
be used to determine back pressure. Dropping flits
in a NoC may not be possible since these
architectures may not provide an end-to-end
protocol for retransmission."
Routing Algorithms for 2D NoC Architectures
http://cva.stanford.edu/classes/ee382c/research/2DRouting.pdf
Bye
Mild Shock schrieb:
> Hi,
>
> He uses FIFO, and DMA and Noc:
>
> Getting peak TOPS on a Ryzen AI 7 350 NPU
> https://destevez.net/2026/05/getting-peak-tops-on-a-ryzen-ai-7-350-npu/
>
> But lets say whether its FIFO or FILO
> isn't so importand his used cases are,
> what is now found in my library(furryhaze)
>
> for GPU, namely the very basic:
>
> /**
> * test_gpu_comp_start(W, K): internal only
> * The predicate succeeds. As a side effect it
> * starts the π-WAM W with K warps.
> */
> function test_gpu_comp_start(args)
>
> /**
> * test_gpu_comp_join(W, P): internal only
> * The predicate succeeds in P with a new promise
> * that waits for the π-WAM W to finish.
> */
> function test_gpu_comp_join(args)
>
> A GPU interface, via the command processor
> for example of WebGPU, does the above
> synchronization for you.
>
> In the NPU example he does everything
> low level, with Python IRON an stuff:
>
> "Since the main way to achieve synchronization
> within the IRON framework is by doing data
> movement with object FIFOs, I’m sending a
> dummy uint32 value as some sort of
> synchronization token.
>
> Waiting for all the kernels to finish is
> trickier. The object FIFOs support a join
> pattern in which an object FIFO consumes an
> object from each of multiple object FIFOs,
> concatenates these objects and produces the
> concatenated object as a result.
>
> Etc.."
>
> Getting peak TOPS on a Ryzen AI 7 350 NPU
> https://destevez.net/2026/05/getting-peak-tops-on-a-ryzen-ai-7-350-npu/
>
> So Daniel Estévez Scientific & Technical
> Amateur Radio, gives a nice glimpse into an
> NPU, I have not yet publicitly released
>
> my library(furryhaze), since its still in
> testing. Maybe take another week or so,
> still I have ironed out all corners,
>
> for example the new gpu_comp_start and
> gpu_comp_join works fine on may desktop
> AI laptops, but I have still a bug on
>
> my iPad AI tablet, on the Redmi AI phone,
> also chokes on a test case.
>
> Bye
>
> Chris M. Thomasson schrieb:
>> On 8/1/2026 2:02 AM, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:
>>> On 7/24/2026 5:43 AM, Mild Shock wrote:
>>>> Then not to waste GPU compute time, by logical
>>>> threads doing nothing.
>>>
>>> Well, then never get to a full/empty condition. It depends on what
>>> you are trying to do. If a GPU thread, warp needs to wait on
>>> something, then you are not designing things right to begin with?
>>
>> Are you sure you even need FIFO? There is a really fast LIFO stack
>> that is also atomic. Now, for the GPU you should never have to
>> spinwait, or wait on anything. You need to be able to always have work
>> to do. There are certian patterns that work well. Its not like on the
>> CPU where we can wait in the kernel on conditions, ala futex or
>> something.
>
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I'm a spinner, I'm a sinner [Dmitry Vyukov for pi-WAM] (Was: Paul Tarau versus Mr. Taskmanager, who would win? [A PDP-11 Humunkulus from 1979]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-19 11:53 +0200
Corr.: Re: I'm a spinner, I'm a sinner [Dmitry Vyukov for pi-WAM] (Was: Paul Tarau versus Mr. Taskmanager, who would win? [A PDP-11 Humunkulus from 1979]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-19 11:55 +0200
Re: I'm a spinner, I'm a sinner [Dmitry Vyukov for pi-WAM] (Was: Paul Tarau versus Mr. Taskmanager, who would win? [A PDP-11 Humunkulus from 1979]) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-07-19 14:04 -0700
Re: I'm a spinner, I'm a sinner [Dmitry Vyukov for pi-WAM] (Was: Paul Tarau versus Mr. Taskmanager, who would win? [A PDP-11 Humunkulus from 1979]) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-07-19 14:07 -0700
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Re: Gemini, DeepSeek, OpenAI all know Dmitriy V'jukov (Was: I'm a spinner, I'm a sinner [Dmitry Vyukov for pi-WAM]) Romelio Balakhonsky <lrel@lao.ru> - 2026-07-20 10:07 +0000
The Cache Identity Crisis by Micro Penis (Re: Gemini, DeepSeek, OpenAI all know Dmitriy V'jukov) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-20 13:51 +0200
Just RTFM the RDNA 3.5 specs! [GPU Cache Lines] (Was: The Cache Identity Crisis by Micro Penis) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-20 14:09 +0200
The large memory tax: ECC RAM (Was: Just RTFM the RDNA 3.5 specs! [GPU Cache Lines]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-20 14:22 +0200
Friendly Reminder: GPU 10x more performant than CPU (Re: Just RTFM the RDNA 3.5 specs! [GPU Cache Lines]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 00:40 +0200
Breaking the CUDA edge in AI by WebGPU (Re: Friendly Reminder: GPU 10x more performant than CPU) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 00:57 +0200
Like WebAssembly before it, WebGPU has "escaped" the browser. (Re: Breaking the CUDA edge in AI by WebGPU (Re: Friendly Reminder: GPU 10x more performant than CPU) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 01:07 +0200
Re: Breaking the CUDA edge in AI by WebGPU (Re: Friendly Reminder: GPU 10x more performant than CPU) Will Bakshandaev <bev@lwesi.ru> - 2026-07-21 14:33 +0000
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If you are paranoid you can use Falco [Agentic AI] (Re: http://localhost:567921/ is a private REST endpoint) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 22:57 +0200
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Re: http://localhost:567921/ is a private REST endpoint [Teaching Micro Penis Vilage Idiot] (Was: Breaking the CUDA edge in AI by WebGPU) Hants Baibikov <vi@bi.ru> - 2026-07-21 21:51 +0000
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How confused is tiny winy penis? (Re: Decide what you critique tiny winy penis) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-22 08:29 +0200
Maybe change your hobby, become a dog owner? (Re: How confused is tiny winy penis?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-22 09:38 +0200
Re: Decide what you critique tiny winy penis (Was: http://localhost:567921/ is a private REST endpoint) Audie Balaban <aie@ndabl.ru> - 2026-07-22 08:02 +0000
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Re: Even dogs know Switzerland != Germany [Syphilis Brain Micro Penis] (Re: Decide what you critique tiny winy penis (Was: http://localhost:567921/ is a private REST endpoint) Roque Bahtinov <aoqhi@hrot.ru> - 2026-07-22 12:04 +0000
My Swift Go 16 AI has no IMEI, are you nuts? (Was: Even dogs know Switzerland != Germany [Syphilis Brain Micro Penis]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-22 14:12 +0200
Same nickname and email, could post faster [5 year old moron] (Re: My Swift Go 16 AI has no IMEI, are you nuts?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-22 14:24 +0200
Re: My Swift Go 16 AI has no IMEI, are you nuts? (Was: Even dogs know Switzerland != Germany [Syphilis Brain Micro Penis]) Randolf Mukanov <mfroa@unvfo.ru> - 2026-07-22 12:27 +0000
I have nothing to hide, you can find me in search.ch (Was: My Swift Go 16 AI has no IMEI, are you nuts?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-22 14:31 +0200
Re: I have nothing to hide, you can find me in search.ch (Was: My Swift Go 16 AI has no IMEI, are you nuts?) Keiv Babenchikov <hi@babebek.ru> - 2026-07-22 12:35 +0000
Where did I confirm German via .ch, you are more than nuts! (Was: I have nothing to hide, you can find me in search.ch) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-22 14:46 +0200
Ask a Ukrainian Neighbour to do Detective [CCCP Troll] (Was: Where did I confirm German via .ch, you are more than nuts!) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-22 14:51 +0200
Re: Ask a Ukrainian Neighbour to do Detective [CCCP Troll] (Was: Where did I confirm German via .ch, you are more than nuts!) Hudson Patrianakos <nrin@odrtta.gr> - 2026-07-22 16:10 +0000
Re: The Cache Identity Crisis by Micro Penis (Re: Gemini, DeepSeek, OpenAI all know Dmitriy V'jukov) Jeiker Makulov <rmkru@eeeamu.ru> - 2026-07-20 16:18 +0000
L1,..,Ln caches are located on the CPU AND on the GPU (Was: The Cache Identity Crisis by Micro Penis) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-20 19:33 +0200
GPU Cache Hierarchy: Understanding L1, L2, and VRAM (Re: L1,..,Ln caches are located on the CPU AND on the GPU) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-20 19:42 +0200
Re: GPU Cache Hierarchy: Understanding L1, L2, and VRAM (Re: L1,..,Ln caches are located on the CPU AND on the GPU) Zackee Mulatov <azauv@omtla.ru> - 2026-07-20 19:09 +0000
Well thats good, co-location, onto the same processor die (Was: GPU Cache Hierarchy: Understanding L1, L2, and VRAM) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-20 22:02 +0200
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Re: Well thats good, co-location, onto the same processor die (Was: GPU Cache Hierarchy: Understanding L1, L2, and VRAM) Hermis Molochkov <me@olech.ru> - 2026-07-20 22:27 +0000
Re: Gemini, DeepSeek, OpenAI all know Dmitriy V'jukov (Was: I'm a spinner, I'm a sinner [Dmitry Vyukov for pi-WAM]) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-07-20 13:40 -0700
I didn't find Futex in WebGPU / WGSL (Was: Gemini, DeepSeek, OpenAI all know Dmitriy V'jukov) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-20 23:25 +0200
Re: I didn't find Futex in WebGPU / WGSL (Was: Gemini, DeepSeek, OpenAI all know Dmitriy V'jukov) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-07-20 14:32 -0700
Re: I didn't find Futex in WebGPU / WGSL (Was: Gemini, DeepSeek, OpenAI all know Dmitriy V'jukov) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-07-20 14:35 -0700
There is no imageAtomicAdd in WGSL (Was: I didn't find Futex in WebGPU / WGSL) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 00:12 +0200
OpenGL is dead. Apple said bye bye / Wayland Compositor (Was: There is no imageAtomicAdd in WGSL) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 00:24 +0200
Re: There is no imageAtomicAdd in WGSL (Was: I didn't find Futex in WebGPU / WGSL) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-07-20 16:15 -0700
Flogging a Dead Horse, OpenGL is EOL (Was: There is no imageAtomicAdd in WGSL) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 01:24 +0200
imageAtomicAdd trivial, Dmitry Vyukov requires capacity (Re: Flogging a Dead Horse, OpenGL is EOL (Was: There is no imageAtomicAdd in WGSL) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 01:32 +0200
capacity = 2^n for some n / systolic system (Was: imageAtomicAdd trivial, Dmitry Vyukov requires capacity) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 01:37 +0200
Source of the benchmark for DmitryVyukov (Re: capacity = 2^n for some n / systolic system) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 01:45 +0200
Re: imageAtomicAdd trivial, Dmitry Vyukov requires capacity (Re: Flogging a Dead Horse, OpenGL is EOL (Was: There is no imageAtomicAdd in WGSL) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-07-20 17:00 -0700
I never used OpenGL Version 4.2 and later (Re: imageAtomicAdd trivial, Dmitry Vyukov requires capacity) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 08:49 +0200
Because of MIMD you have to reassess algorithms (Was: I never used OpenGL Version 4.2 and later) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 08:59 +0200
Why MIMD is interesting for pi-WAM? Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 09:16 +0200
Re: Why MIMD is interesting for pi-WAM? Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-07-21 00:32 -0700
Re: Because of MIMD you have to reassess algorithms (Was: I never used OpenGL Version 4.2 and later) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-07-21 00:42 -0700
You still don't understand "budget" [Rossy Boy slower than Micro Penis] (Was: Because of MIMD you have to reassess algorithms) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 10:13 +0200
Go on Rossy Boy, ask more stupid questions (Was: You still don't understand "budget" [Rossy Boy slower than Micro Penis]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 10:17 +0200
Need to be Einstein to understand Giga Lips (Was: Go on Rossy Boy, ask more stupid questions) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 10:22 +0200
Marketing invents Gucci Bag AI Laptops (Was: Need to be Einstein to understand Giga Lips) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 10:43 +0200
Re: Go on Rossy Boy, ask more stupid questions (Was: You still don't understand "budget" [Rossy Boy slower than Micro Penis]) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-07-21 08:59 -0700
Rossy Boy says I am a crazy frothing lunatic (Was: Go on Rossy Boy, ask more stupid questions) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-21 22:27 +0200
Re: Rossy Boy says I am a crazy frothing lunatic (Was: Go on Rossy Boy, ask more stupid questions) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-07-21 13:52 -0700
Do you see the loops, in C code and in Java code? /** Looping **/ (Re: Because of MIMD you have to reassess algorithms) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-23 00:10 +0200
Re: Do you see the loops, in C code and in Java code? /** Looping **/ (Re: Because of MIMD you have to reassess algorithms) Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-07-22 16:23 -0600
regreting not using a contraceptive (Was: Do you see the loops, in C code and in Java code? /** Looping **/) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-23 00:51 +0200
Re: regreting not using a contraceptive (Was: Do you see the loops, in C code and in Java code? /** Looping **/) Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-07-22 17:13 -0600
Re: regreting not using a contraceptive (Was: Do you see the loops, in C code and in Java code? /** Looping **/) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-07-22 18:23 -0700
Re: regreting not using a contraceptive (Was: Do you see the loops, in C code and in Java code? /** Looping **/) Clerence Bakhvalov <eael@eheav.ru> - 2026-07-23 13:06 +0000
Re: Do you see the loops, in C code and in Java code? /** Looping **/ (Re: Because of MIMD you have to reassess algorithms) Kayce Pakhmutov <vop@ktevkh.ru> - 2026-07-23 13:01 +0000
Re: Do you see the loops, in C code and in Java code? /** Looping **/ (Re: Because of MIMD you have to reassess algorithms) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-07-23 13:19 -0700
Why do you even need a mpmc queue? [Thunder Kittens] (Re Do you see the loops, in C code and in Java code? /** Looping **/) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-24 14:43 +0200
What does pi in pi-WAM mean? (Re: Why do you even need a mpmc queue? [Thunder Kittens]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-24 14:52 +0200
OR-parallelism or AND-parallelism? [MapReduce] (Re: What does pi in pi-WAM mean?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-24 15:02 +0200
Re: What does pi in pi-WAM mean? (Re: Why do you even need a mpmc queue? [Thunder Kittens]) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-07-24 11:01 -0700
It is all on GitHub , for the 100-th time! (Was: What does pi in pi-WAM mean?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-24 20:10 +0200
Re: Why do you even need a mpmc queue? [Thunder Kittens] (Re Do you see the loops, in C code and in Java code? /** Looping **/) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-07-24 15:54 -0700
And, where did I talk about rockets? [Hint its about xAI's Grok] (Was: Why do you even need a mpmc queue? [Thunder Kittens]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-25 01:23 +0200
Re: And, where did I talk about rockets? [Hint its about xAI's Grok] (Was: Why do you even need a mpmc queue? [Thunder Kittens]) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-07-24 21:20 -0700
Re: And, where did I talk about rockets? [Hint its about xAI's Grok] (Was: Why do you even need a mpmc queue? [Thunder Kittens]) Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-07-24 21:23 -0700
Why forget something, that was never on my mind (Was: And, where did I talk about rockets?) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-25 09:47 +0200
Example Mandel Brot rendering [Faster with MIMD] (Re: Why do you even need a mpmc queue? [Thunder Kittens]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-07-25 09:57 +0200
Re: Why do you even need a mpmc queue? [Thunder Kittens] (Re Do you see the loops, in C code and in Java code? /** Looping **/) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-01 02:02 -0700
Re: Why do you even need a mpmc queue? [Thunder Kittens] (Re Do you see the loops, in C code and in Java code? /** Looping **/) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-01 02:05 -0700
He uses "FIFO objects", and DMA and Noc [Glimps into Ryzen AI 7 350] (Was: Why do you even need a mpmc queue? [Thunder Kittens]) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-01 12:00 +0200
NACK retransmission might double Manhattan Distance (Was: He uses "FIFO objects", and DMA and Noc) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-01 14:22 +0200
Re: NACK retransmission might double Manhattan Distance (Was: He uses "FIFO objects", and DMA and Noc) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-01 14:50 -0700
I am using WebGPU, and not WebGL (Was: NACK retransmission might double Manhattan Distance) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-02 00:43 +0200
Re: I am using WebGPU, and not WebGL (Was: NACK retransmission might double Manhattan Distance) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-01 16:02 -0700
Re: I am using WebGPU, and not WebGL (Was: NACK retransmission might double Manhattan Distance) Lane W <cactus_DAC@yahoo.com> - 2026-08-01 17:04 -0600
Re: I am using WebGPU, and not WebGL (Was: NACK retransmission might double Manhattan Distance) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-02 14:45 -0700
YOU ARE AN IDIOT (Was: I am using WebGPU, and not WebGL) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-02 23:56 +0200
YOU ARE AN IDIOT (Re: I am using WebGPU, and not WebGL) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-02 23:57 +0200
Texture inside my compute shader makes no sense (Was: I am using WebGPU, and not WebGL) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-02 02:36 +0200
Prolog inferencing and not canvasing fancy stuff (Was: Texture inside my compute shader makes no sense) Mild Shock <janburse@fastmail.fm> - 2026-08-02 02:38 +0200
Re: Prolog inferencing and not canvasing fancy stuff (Was: Texture inside my compute shader makes no sense) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-02 13:34 -0700
Re: Prolog inferencing and not canvasing fancy stuff (Was: Texture inside my compute shader makes no sense) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-08-02 13:41 -0700
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