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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #519081 > unrolled thread
| Started by | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2018-10-12 12:50 -0700 |
| Last post | 2018-10-17 05:56 -0700 |
| Articles | 18 on this page of 58 — 25 participants |
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various OTs John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-12 12:50 -0700
Re: various OTs George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2018-10-12 13:04 -0700
Re: various OTs John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-12 13:48 -0700
Re: various OTs George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2018-10-12 17:46 -0700
Re: various OTs dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2018-10-12 14:53 -0700
Re: various OTs John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-12 15:30 -0700
Re: various OTs Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2018-10-13 10:13 +0100
Re: various OTs John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-13 09:33 -0700
Re: various OTs Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-13 14:15 -0400
Re: various OTs Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2018-10-15 10:09 +0100
Re: various OTs John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-15 06:50 -0700
Re: various OTs Clive Arthur <cliveta@nowaytoday.co.uk> - 2018-10-13 10:37 +0100
Re: various OTs DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-13 10:01 +0000
Re: various OTs John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-13 11:08 -0700
Re: various OTs John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-13 09:55 -0700
Re: various OTs MikeP <mjp993@googlemail.com> - 2018-10-16 03:22 +0000
Re: various OTs Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2018-10-13 22:39 -0700
Re: various OTs Sjouke Burry <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> - 2018-10-14 21:43 +0200
Re: various OTs Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> - 2018-10-15 19:46 -0700
Re: various OTs DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-12 23:55 +0000
Re: various OTs Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2018-10-12 16:58 -0700
Re: various OTs bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2018-10-12 17:52 -0700
Re: various OTs speff <spehro@gmail.com> - 2018-10-18 06:53 -0700
Re: various OTs John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-18 06:59 -0700
Re: various OTs tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-18 14:10 -0700
Re: various OTs "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2018-10-18 17:49 -0500
Re: various OTs Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-18 21:04 -0400
Re: various OTs Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2018-10-19 01:34 +0000
Re: various OTs <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-19 07:11 +0000
Re: various OTs "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2018-10-12 19:10 -0500
Re: various OTs Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2018-10-13 06:22 -0700
Re: various OTs Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-13 14:16 -0400
Re: various OTs John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2018-10-13 17:19 -0700
Re: various OTs whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2018-10-13 12:24 -0700
Re: various OTs Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2018-10-13 17:30 -0400
Re: various OTs Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2018-10-14 20:13 +0000
Re: various OTs John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-14 13:59 -0700
Re: various OTs Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2018-10-14 23:58 +0000
Re: various OTs Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2018-10-15 01:05 +0000
Re: various OTs Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2018-10-15 05:57 +0000
Re: various OTs DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org - 2018-10-15 11:09 +0000
Re: various OTs <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-15 07:23 +0000
Re: various OTs "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2018-10-13 21:39 -0500
Re: various OTs bitrex <user@example.net> - 2018-10-13 00:08 -0400
Re: various OTs <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-13 06:59 +0000
Re: various OTs John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-13 12:08 -0700
Re: various OTs <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> - 2018-10-13 07:27 +0000
Re: various OTs speff <spehro@gmail.com> - 2018-10-18 06:55 -0700
Re: various OTs Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2018-10-13 07:32 -0700
Re: various OTs John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2018-10-13 12:17 -0700
Re: various OTs Joseph Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> - 2018-10-15 08:37 -0400
Re: various OTs Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2018-10-15 13:58 +0100
Re: various OTs Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2018-10-15 14:34 +0100
Re: various OTs Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2018-10-16 10:26 +1100
Re: various OTs Clive Arthur <cliveta@nowaytoday.co.uk> - 2018-10-16 10:46 +0100
Re: various OTs tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 08:46 -0700
Re: various OTs Clive Arthur <cliveta@nowaytoday.co.uk> - 2018-10-16 19:53 +0100
Re: various OTs tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2018-10-17 05:56 -0700
Page 3 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3]
| From | DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-15 11:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pq1sge$1m5e$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #519328 |
Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote in news:pq1a8t$40d$5@gonzo.alcatraz: > On 2018-10-15, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote: >> Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote: >> >> There is nothing to replace the Hubble. > > Apart from those two that NRO decided not to launch, > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012 _National_Reconnaissance_Office_space > _telescope_donation_to_NASA > > Dunno how they'd launch 'em though. > The JWST will replace it, but will not have the same speed of maneuverability due to its larger size. It is worth it to invest in a way to do a repair on it without our shuttle program. I wonder how big each gyro axis unit is. For a mass the size of the HST, They are likely pretty big. Remember the huge IBM hard drives? Anyway, short of getting up there pretty soon, it will fall hopelessly out of any serviceable orbit. I suppose they could boost it one more time to some higher orbit to give more time to get to it to service it.
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| From | <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-15 07:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pq1fa1$u70$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #519287 |
Steve Wilson wrote >John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote: > >> It's tough to get stuff to work in space. Probably even tougher to >> figure out what went wrong. > >As I understand, gyros use sealed gas bearings and very thin conductors to >drive the motors. Here's some more information (old) > >https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic= >32804.0;attach=542152 > >Apparently the new mems gyros would be more reliable: > >https://www.siliconsensing.com/technology/mems-gyroscopes/ > >Apparently some models are super-sensitive and require recalibration due to >changes in G due to the moon's gravity. Ha, I ran a test with the MEMS with a very precisely controlled temperature to see if I could see correlation with the moon phases... Published that in some related group few years ago. The idea was to replace GPS with an inertia based system. Did not get to see the effect of the moon, but noted daily variations very likely due to chip expansion and board expansion caused by minuscule temperature changes. concluded that I needed a better oven. Then somebody at some university repeated it with a better oven. It is out there can search for the graph, lemme see http://panteltje.com/pub/xgc.gif The spike is where I opened the box to check some switches... At least when those sats fail I know where to pick up... Its fun. so many things to get into...
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| From | "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-13 21:39 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ppua8g$s1$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #519179 |
"whit3rd" <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in message news:3b61ba6c-2db5-4080-9144-c080861a5432@googlegroups.com... >Metal > should hold up well. If ZrO turns to Zr, though, it's gonna lose the > smooth surface. ZrO's binding energy is higher than that of Fe. You might as well consider transmutation of Fe or Zr due to high energy spallation, too, but you'll only be that much further down in the noise. Or Wigner energy. Bulk effects are an extremely small priority. It would have to be in orbit for a very long time indeed. I don't know that asteroids have these problems after billions of years. And common minerals, like olivine, aren't as stable as zirconia. Photoemission is the only mechanism with a plausible risk factor -- showers of charged particles exiting a surface, multiplied by the energy of the impacting particle. There should be ions in there, too, but again, that's a bulk effect manifest at the surface. Sure, it'll roughen the surface, atomically. The surface is already microscopically rough. Drops in the bucket. I'd worry much more about chemical breakdown of the grease. If it's carbon or silicone based, expect fragmentation and cross-linking. If it can be dry (graphite, MoS2 or PTFE?), that helps, but a purely dry lubricant would only stay in place by van der Waals forces. Material composition is critical inside a fission reactor, say. But that's not an environment that humans can sit in for years with mainly just an elevated cancer risk. That's an environment that liquifies biological tissue in -- minutes, hours, days? http://www.srl.caltech.edu/ACE/ASC/DATA/bibliography/ICRC2005/usa-mewaldt-RA-abs1-sh35-oral.pdf This says space is ~Sv/yr equivalent, which is kind of scary actually, to the point that I wonder if long-duration astronauts are growing anything interesting yet. But it's not something you're likely to die of, during a mission. And that's in the mSv for casual (days-long) missions, comparable to a PET scan, or CT of the more sensitive areas, so as long as you don't make a habit of, say, space tourism, it's not going to affect your long-term risk. Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/
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| From | bitrex <user@example.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-13 00:08 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ZcewD.43802$mJ1.38283@fx24.iad> |
| In reply to | #519081 |
On 10/12/2018 03:50 PM, John Larkin wrote: > > https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/10/12/another-space-telescope-shuts-down-one-week-after-hubble/ > > Gyros, reaction wheels, seem to be a chronic problem in satellites. I > have a friend who designs cubesats, and he says that the gyros are the > most expensive and unreliable parts. They should be redundant, or > redesigned, or something. Hall thrusters/plasma pulse thrusters (can be?) more efficient, fewer moving parts <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall-effect_thruster>
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| From | <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-13 06:59 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pps552$org$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #519081 |
John Larkin wrote >https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/10/12/another-space-telescope-shuts-down-one-week-after-hubble/ Now they retired the shuttle no way to send a repair crew up there... The Russian mission to the ISS also failed, crew made an emergency landing and is safe. Statistics... >Gyros, reaction wheels, seem to be a chronic problem in satellites. I >have a friend who designs cubesats, and he says that the gyros are the >most expensive and unreliable parts. They should be redundant, or >redesigned, or something. > >=========== > >Another friend, a Fellow of a giant areospace conglomerate, tells me >that they have a new CEO. The old one was big on outsourcing, and they >did stuff like using contract programmers in India, and things went to >hell. They will be hiring 8000 engineers in the next few years, so >they can start learning how to do stuff again. Software made elsewhere, hardware made elsewhere, that leaves the US with nothing... Can the trend be reversed? I think not in the short run. The empire is over the hill, and as all empires before it, will vanish. Climate change will accelerate things. large migration, population changes.. A reality show host closing the borders for trade will cause the US dollar to be replaced by some other currency, Chinese, European.. Starting an other war will not work as the 'enemy' has as many nukes as US, even if you could get people to fight, they won't, they will sit down in protest, unity lost. Mr Xi will be visiting my country soon, and Dutch Chinese relations are the best ever now. The markets took a big hit recently, US people lost a lot of money.. The high tech you need, the factories you need, the workers you need are not there. And you will not be able to buy those with a dollar that is no longer accepted. The expertise is not there, the milking of the taxpayer for military nonsense projects like for example the F35 has made a farce of US defense. Alienating your allies with tariffs and a gun to their head to sell your inferior weapons, creating wars to sell your weapons. some other power will do that has the resources now. Breaking promises, stepping gout of international treaties, claiming to be a capitalist state and being against free trade at the same time, not a good thing. Evolution, things change, stars are born and stars die. Success with finding 8000 engineers with any experience. Where would they have gained experience? Everything is made in China. >This is a cool part: > >http://www.ti.com/product/lmg1020 Yes, nano nano, higher switching frequencies, short wave is already 100% polluted, next GPS goes out due to interference of switchers, next .. chips emit light.... mm satellite TV interference better stop here. Does not sound all that optimistic now does it ;-)
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-13 12:08 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <46d4sd9f5rit393k1p0fr86g2o4up06crt@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #519136 |
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 06:59:26 GMT, <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> wrote: >John Larkin wrote >>https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/10/12/another-space-telescope-shuts-down-one-week-after-hubble/ > >Now they retired the shuttle no way to send a repair crew up there... > >The Russian mission to the ISS also failed, crew made an emergency landing and is safe. > >Statistics... ISS will probably be abandoned soon, certainly if we kill another crew. It wasted around a trillion dollars to basically demonstrate that space is too hostile for humans. > > > >>Gyros, reaction wheels, seem to be a chronic problem in satellites. I >>have a friend who designs cubesats, and he says that the gyros are the >>most expensive and unreliable parts. They should be redundant, or >>redesigned, or something. >> >>=========== >> >>Another friend, a Fellow of a giant areospace conglomerate, tells me >>that they have a new CEO. The old one was big on outsourcing, and they >>did stuff like using contract programmers in India, and things went to >>hell. They will be hiring 8000 engineers in the next few years, so >>they can start learning how to do stuff again. > >Software made elsewhere, hardware made elsewhere, that leaves the US with nothing... >Can the trend be reversed? I think not in the short run. The outsourcing trend turned out to be mostly bad business. D's tax and tariff changes also encourage doing things here in the USA. I don't see a lot of engineering innovation happening in China or India or even much in Europe. > >The empire is over the hill, and as all empires before it, will vanish. >Climate change will accelerate things. large migration, population changes.. Doubt it. > >A reality show host closing the borders for trade will cause the US dollar to >be replaced by some other currency, Chinese, European.. >Starting an other war will not work as the 'enemy' has as many nukes as US, >even if you could get people to fight, they won't, they will sit down in protest, >unity lost. >Mr Xi will be visiting my country soon, and Dutch Chinese relations are the best ever now. > >The markets took a big hit recently, US people lost a lot of money.. Stock markets are emotion-driven and noisy. That started with spice ships and tulip bulbs. Nothing new there. The long-term outlook for sensible investments has been good. >The high tech you need, the factories you need, the workers you need >are not there. >And you will not be able to buy those with a dollar that is no longer accepted. >The expertise is not there, the milking of the taxpayer for military nonsense projects like for example the F35 >has made a farce of US defense. >Alienating your allies with tariffs and a gun to their head to sell your inferior weapons, creating wars to sell your weapons. >some other power will do that has the resources now. >Breaking promises, stepping gout of international treaties, claiming to be a capitalist state and being against free trade >at the same time, not a good thing. >Evolution, things change, stars are born and stars die. > >Success with finding 8000 engineers with any experience. >Where would they have gained experience? Some from schools, some poached from competitors, some imported, some developed on site. They will do it. It's a cool place to work for. I'm hoping they will stay with their core competances and continue to outsource electronics. Big aerospace companies (and national labs, and others) used to have in-house electronic design groups, but haven't replaced them as they retired. >Everything is made in China. > > >>This is a cool part: >> >>http://www.ti.com/product/lmg1020 > > >Yes, nano nano, higher switching frequencies, short wave is already 100% polluted, next GPS goes out due to interference of switchers, >next .. chips emit light.... mm satellite TV interference >better stop here. >Does not sound all that optimistic now does it ;-) No, you don't sound cheerful. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
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| From | <698839253X6D445TD@nospam.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-13 07:27 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <pps6pa$rab$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #519081 |
PS Huawei to invest 1 billion yuan in fostering AI specialists: http://chinaplus.cri.cn/news/china/9/20181013/195106.html
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| From | speff <spehro@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-18 06:55 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <dcac5c17-b0d2-4c77-8f91-675088151744@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #519139 |
On Saturday, 13 October 2018 15:27:45 UTC+8, 69883925...@nospam.org wrote: > PS > Huawei to invest 1 billion yuan in fostering AI specialists: > http://chinaplus.cri.cn/news/china/9/20181013/195106.html I sat through a (moderately) technical presentation by one of the Huawei engineers last week. Very impressive company. --sp
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| From | Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-13 07:32 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ppsvls02prj@drn.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #519081 |
John Larkin wrote...
>
> This is a cool part:
> http://www.ti.com/product/lmg1020
0.4mm dot spacing, awkk!
--
Thanks,
- Win
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-13 12:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ctg4sdtddi1f176v3440v0o148ovmfl50j@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #519160 |
On 13 Oct 2018 07:32:28 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote: >John Larkin wrote... >> >> This is a cool part: >> http://www.ti.com/product/lmg1020 > > 0.4mm dot spacing, awkk! That's within reasonable PCB design rules. What's scary will be heat sinking the thing. It's obviously intended to drive the EPC GaN fets (fig 15) which took us getting some used to too. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
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| From | Joseph Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-15 08:37 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <0001HW.2174C186001D355A70000DC502CF@news.giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #519081 |
On Oct 12, 2018, John Larkin wrote (in article<r2u1sddojvr815ukjlm0qhsr5bpa2fbe6s@4ax.com>): > > <https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/10/12/another-space-telescope-shuts-down-one- > week-after-hubble/> > > Gyros, reaction wheels, seem to be a chronic problem in satellites. I > have a friend who designs cubesats, and he says that the gyros are the > most expensive and unreliable parts. They should be redundant, or > redesigned, or something. I recently read that the root cause of gyro and reaction-wheel failures in space had been uncovered: Electric currents passing through the balls in ball bearings were destroying the bearings, causing premature failure (compared to testing on the ground). I has been known for a century of electric motor experience that electric currents passing through bearings is a bad idea. (Commutators are not bearings.) This was a big mystery - nobody could figure out what was different between space and ground, and nobody could imagine where such currents could be coming from. It turns out to be space weather and the solar wind, by a mechanism I have not studied and so cannot explain. The solution was to use ball bearings with ceramic balls, so no current can flow. Such bearings are catalog items, and have been for some time. It’s just that nobody thought it necessary to pay the added cost. . > > =========== > > Another friend, a Fellow of a giant areospace conglomerate, tells me > that they have a new CEO. The old one was big on outsourcing, and they > did stuff like using contract programmers in India, and things went to > hell. They will be hiring 8000 engineers in the next few years, so > they can start learning how to do stuff again. My immediate question is why anyone was surprised. Today’s programmers are typically innocent of any hardware knowledge or instinct, and have no idea how the system they are working on actually works. Joe Gwinn
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| From | Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-15 13:58 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <pq22th$2is$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #519369 |
On 15/10/2018 13:37, Joseph Gwinn wrote: > On Oct 12, 2018, John Larkin wrote > (in article<r2u1sddojvr815ukjlm0qhsr5bpa2fbe6s@4ax.com>): > >> Another friend, a Fellow of a giant areospace conglomerate, tells me >> that they have a new CEO. The old one was big on outsourcing, and they >> did stuff like using contract programmers in India, and things went to >> hell. They will be hiring 8000 engineers in the next few years, so >> they can start learning how to do stuff again. > > My immediate question is why anyone was surprised. Today’s programmers are > typically innocent of any hardware knowledge or instinct, and have no idea > how the system they are working on actually works. OTOH I think it may be more an example of "you get what you pay for". India also has a handful of organisations capable of writing six sigma quality code to the standard expected on manned space programs. When you outsource stuff you had better get the specification right first time and choose the correct partners to work with. Otherwise you can get back something at the end which does exactly what you asked for rather than what you thought you had asked for. Seen it happen... Cultural assumptions about ambiguities may be different and any loose ends have a nasty habit of causing serious trouble in software specs. -- Regards, Martin Brown
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| From | Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-15 14:34 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <4I0xD.32719$_E4.20928@fx10.am4> |
| In reply to | #519373 |
On 15/10/18 13:58, Martin Brown wrote: > On 15/10/2018 13:37, Joseph Gwinn wrote: >> On Oct 12, 2018, John Larkin wrote >> (in article<r2u1sddojvr815ukjlm0qhsr5bpa2fbe6s@4ax.com>): >> >>> Another friend, a Fellow of a giant areospace conglomerate, tells me >>> that they have a new CEO. The old one was big on outsourcing, and they >>> did stuff like using contract programmers in India, and things went to >>> hell. They will be hiring 8000 engineers in the next few years, so >>> they can start learning how to do stuff again. >> >> My immediate question is why anyone was surprised. Today’s programmers are >> typically innocent of any hardware knowledge or instinct, and have no idea >> how the system they are working on actually works. > > OTOH I think it may be more an example of "you get what you pay for". > > India also has a handful of organisations capable of writing six sigma quality > code to the standard expected on manned space programs. > > When you outsource stuff you had better get the specification right first time > and choose the correct partners to work with. Otherwise you can get back > something at the end which does exactly what you asked for rather than what you > thought you had asked for. Seen it happen... > > Cultural assumptions about ambiguities may be different and any loose ends have > a nasty habit of causing serious trouble in software specs. I have been warned by an Indian project manager working in Bangalore that the Indian culture explicitly believes that miracles happen. Couple that with other factors common to many cultures, and optimistic underbidding is certain to happen.
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| From | Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-16 10:26 +1100 |
| Message-ID | <tm9xD.173848$wV2.67721@fx01.iad> |
| In reply to | #519373 |
On 15/10/18 23:58, Martin Brown wrote: > When you outsource stuff you had better get the specification right > first time and choose the correct partners to work with. Otherwise you > can get back something at the end which does exactly what you asked for > rather than what you thought you had asked for. Seen it happen... Natural language can be a killer. ESA uses English to specify the ICDs (Interface Control Documents), but the language usage is highly structured according to a 500+ page standards document which dictates the structure, sentence construction, glossary and interpretation. Each ICD defines the entire monitoring and control interface between a satellite module and the central computing, and is the primary artefact to specify the supply contract. I have worked with the main author of this standard on software which is now capable of *generating* the structured English from the logical model (more below). > Cultural assumptions about ambiguities may be different and any loose > ends have a nasty habit of causing serious trouble in software specs. Every ESA mission in the last decade, and decreasingly so for a decade before that, applied the discipline of Fact-Based Modeling <http://factbasedmodeling.org> in creating these logical models. FBM is a first-order logic, so all the logical proof theory of Russell and Whitehead applies to ensuring semantic consistency. This has avoided the re-occurrence of expensive in-flight failures which had occurred a couple of times earlier (despite extensive ground testing), which were blamed on the use of industry standard techniques including UML and XML. These have no complete basis in mathematical logic, and so they sometimes allow multiple interpretations. Such core failures could not be fixed by updating the software in-flight. My "Constellation Query Language" is one implementation of an FBM language that conforms to the draft Exchange Schema, see <http://dataconstellation.com/ActiveFacts/>. Some might be interested in the fact that CQL is itself a controlled natural language (English, with incomplete implementations for French, German, Italian, Spanish and Mandarin). It allows use of *open vocabulary* in sentences that conform to particular linguistic structures which map unambiguously to the underlying logic. The sentence structures and open vocabulary are designed to facilitate correct interpretation by anyone fluent in that natural language, whether or not they are already familiar with the technology being defined. That means they can understand the model, and perhaps detect errors or omissions in the intended behaviour. What remains now is the further promulgation of *other* tools that comply with the new model exchange standard, so that the supply contracts can start to migrate to using the models themselves, not just the generated English. Clifford Heath.
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| From | Clive Arthur <cliveta@nowaytoday.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-16 10:46 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <pq4c29$5vb$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #519369 |
On 15/10/2018 13:37, Joseph Gwinn wrote: <snipped> > > I has been known for a century of electric motor experience that electric > currents passing through bearings is a bad idea. (Commutators are not > bearings.) There is an exception... http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/bbmotor.html#article Cheers -- Clive
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| From | tabbypurr@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-16 08:46 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <3f49149c-881d-49c9-9df2-3ee15ef2471f@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #519453 |
On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 10:46:55 UTC+1, Clive Arthur wrote: > On 15/10/2018 13:37, Joseph Gwinn wrote: > > <snipped> > > > > I has been known for a century of electric motor experience that electric > > currents passing through bearings is a bad idea. (Commutators are not > > bearings.) > > There is an exception... > > http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/bbmotor.html#article > > Cheers I don't think that is an exception. AFAIK no-one uses those commercially because of their obvious flaws. NT
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| From | Clive Arthur <cliveta@nowaytoday.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-16 19:53 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <pq5c49$pp3$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #519492 |
On 16/10/2018 16:46, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote: > On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 10:46:55 UTC+1, Clive Arthur wrote: >> On 15/10/2018 13:37, Joseph Gwinn wrote: >> >> <snipped> >>> >>> I has been known for a century of electric motor experience that electric >>> currents passing through bearings is a bad idea. (Commutators are not >>> bearings.) >> >> There is an exception... >> >> http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/bbmotor.html#article >> >> Cheers > > I don't think that is an exception. AFAIK no-one uses those commercially because of their obvious flaws. > > > NT > Yes, it was intended to be a humorous comment, m'lud. However, when this first appeared in Wireless World (how I miss those well-crafted circuit diagrams!) it did give rise to all sorts of crackpot theories involving magnetic fields. Of course, it's all just a load of expanding balls. Cheers -- Clive
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| From | tabbypurr@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-10-17 05:56 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <d9d640b7-7c81-4124-9591-79287e46dcef@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #519507 |
On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 19:54:07 UTC+1, Clive Arthur wrote: > On 16/10/2018 16:46, tabbypurr wrote: > > On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 10:46:55 UTC+1, Clive Arthur wrote: > >> On 15/10/2018 13:37, Joseph Gwinn wrote: > >> > >> <snipped> > >>> > >>> I has been known for a century of electric motor experience that electric > >>> currents passing through bearings is a bad idea. (Commutators are not > >>> bearings.) > >> > >> There is an exception... > >> > >> http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/bbmotor.html#article > >> > >> Cheers > > > > I don't think that is an exception. AFAIK no-one uses those commercially because of their obvious flaws. > > > > > > NT > > > > Yes, it was intended to be a humorous comment, m'lud. > > However, when this first appeared in Wireless World (how I miss those > well-crafted circuit diagrams!) it did give rise to all sorts of > crackpot theories involving magnetic fields. > > Of course, it's all just a load of expanding balls. > > Cheers it gets in a spin because its balls swell up. NT
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