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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #460702 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-05-17 14:33 -0700 |
| Last post | 2017-07-13 07:43 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 80 — 19 participants |
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5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-17 14:33 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-17 15:09 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-31 07:39 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-05-18 01:21 -0500
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-31 07:30 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers oldschool@tubes.com - 2017-05-18 08:34 -0400
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-18 10:07 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> - 2017-05-18 10:53 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers speff <spehro@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 12:59 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2017-05-31 22:03 +0200
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-31 13:22 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2017-05-31 23:04 +0200
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-31 15:57 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-01 07:47 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-06-01 07:13 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-01 14:28 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> - 2017-06-01 07:42 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> - 2017-06-01 07:43 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-06-01 08:47 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers klaus.kragelund@gmail.com - 2017-06-02 01:25 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-06-02 07:59 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 09:21 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-06-02 09:32 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 10:08 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-06-02 10:21 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 10:46 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-02 17:54 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-06-02 11:02 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-06-02 11:05 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-02 18:16 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 11:32 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-06-02 12:15 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 12:43 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers klaus.kragelund@gmail.com - 2017-06-02 10:04 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-06-02 10:54 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> - 2017-06-02 17:35 -0500
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-06-02 15:56 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-06-01 17:44 +0300
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-01 14:57 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-06-01 08:05 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-06-01 08:45 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-01 16:07 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-06-02 11:08 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 11:37 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> - 2017-06-01 07:33 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-01 14:56 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-06-01 12:08 +0300
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib.bouaziz@gmail.com - 2017-06-01 04:12 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-06-01 07:15 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-18 20:08 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers upsidedown@downunder.com - 2017-05-19 00:03 +0300
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-05-18 14:12 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-05-31 10:48 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2017-05-31 21:50 +0200
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-31 12:57 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2017-05-31 22:10 +0200
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-01 13:09 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2017-06-01 23:17 +0200
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-01 14:35 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib.bouaziz@gmail.com - 2017-06-02 07:01 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-06-02 08:44 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 09:19 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-06-02 11:18 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-06-02 09:28 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 09:35 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-06-02 11:16 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-06-02 14:02 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 14:36 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> - 2017-06-02 16:08 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-06-02 16:46 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2017-06-02 23:13 +0200
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 14:39 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> - 2017-06-03 09:47 +0200
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers klaus.kragelund@gmail.com - 2017-06-03 04:28 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-07 20:03 +0000
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-06-08 10:12 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-07-13 07:35 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Terry <respect__privacy@hotmail.com> - 2017-06-02 06:06 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-06-02 09:27 -0700
Re: 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-07-13 07:43 -0700
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| From | Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-17 14:33 -0700 |
| Subject | 5 to 10kV rated gate transformers |
| Message-ID | <ofifji02a2d@drn.newsguy.com> |
Suggestions for sources of gate transformers, rated for 5 to 10kV continuous DC.
Or actually, small 1:1 or 1:2 transformers to make simple dc-dc converters for
5kV gate-drive.
Will need 100 to 200 pieces, or more. Parts test rated for 5kV for one second,
or even for 1 minute, are not acceptable. Maybe parts rated for 15kV for one
minute would be good enough. I can design and hand-wind transformers to meet
this spec, but sheesh, I don't want to wind 200 or more transformers!
--
Thanks,
- Win
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-17 15:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <80iphc9t2c30udg3e27efpsspblp674pub@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #460702 |
On 17 May 2017 14:33:38 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote: >Suggestions for sources of gate transformers, rated for 5 to 10kV continuous DC. >Or actually, small 1:1 or 1:2 transformers to make simple dc-dc converters for >5kV gate-drive. > >Will need 100 to 200 pieces, or more. Parts test rated for 5kV for one second, >or even for 1 minute, are not acceptable. Maybe parts rated for 15kV for one >minute would be good enough. I can design and hand-wind transformers to meet >this spec, but sheesh, I don't want to wind 200 or more transformers! Digikey has cheap DC/DC converters in the 6 to 10 KV range. But they are mostly tested for one minute. You can't expect a Digikey part to be tested for a year. You might make the transformer as a PC board thing. That is sort of free. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
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| From | Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-31 07:39 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ogmki4020oh@drn.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #460707 |
John Larkin wrote...
>
> Winfield Hill wrote:
>
>> Suggestions small 1:1 or 1:2 transformers to make simple
>> dc-dc converters for 5kV gate-drive.
>
> Digikey has cheap DC/DC converters in the 6 to 10 KV range.
> But they are mostly tested for one minute. You can't expect
> a Digikey part to be tested for a year.
I haven't seen any above the sometimes-seen 3750 volts.
Examples?
HV parts AC tested for the standard one minute have to
be dramatically derated for continuous DC. To account
for the breakdown paths that develop over time.
Recom has 2012 whitepaper "isolated DC-DC Converters"
with a derating table, they knock off up to 50%.
--
Thanks,
- Win
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| From | "Tim Williams" <tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-18 01:21 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <ofjeat$mfm$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #460702 |
FWIW, I've hi-potted one small common mode choke that failed at 15kV -- it jumped pin to pin, not over the bobbin separator fin. Slow for gate drive, but maybe that's okay, I don't know. :) Tim -- Seven Transistor Labs, LLC Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com "Winfield Hill" <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote in message news:ofifji02a2d@drn.newsguy.com... > Suggestions for sources of gate transformers, rated for 5 to 10kV > continuous DC. > Or actually, small 1:1 or 1:2 transformers to make simple dc-dc converters > for > 5kV gate-drive. > > Will need 100 to 200 pieces, or more. Parts test rated for 5kV for one > second, > or even for 1 minute, are not acceptable. Maybe parts rated for 15kV for > one > minute would be good enough. I can design and hand-wind transformers to > meet > this spec, but sheesh, I don't want to wind 200 or more transformers! > > > -- > Thanks, > - Win
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| From | Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-31 07:30 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ogmk1n01vpe@drn.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #460756 |
Tim Williams wrote...
>
> FWIW, I've hi-potted one small common mode choke that
> failed at 15kV -- it jumped pin to pin, not over the
> bobbin separator fin.
>
> Slow for gate drive, but maybe that's okay, I don't know. :)
Yes, I had been evaluating CM chokes, which often have
quite impressive insulating distances. I settled on
a Panasonic ELF-21C023A. It has Lm = 1.7mH, Ll = 40uH
and Rcoil = 0.08 ohms. An 100kHz H-bridge running from
24V, with 1N5819 Schottky bridge rectifier, makes a 24.5V
output, into 5mA load, 23.6V at 25mA, according to SPICE,
for +20,-4V SiC drive. The magnetizing current (discharge
and charge the bulk cap) is a modest 66mA p-p.
My next step, play with potting and a month-long 2x
overvoltage test at 10kV.
> Winfield Hill wrote in message
> news:ofifji02a2d@drn.newsguy.com...
>>
>> Suggestions for sources of gate transformers, rated for
>> 5 to 10kV continuous DC. Or actually, small 1:1 or 1:2
>> transformers to make simple dc-dc converters for 5kV
>> gate-drive.
--
Thanks,
- Win
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| From | oldschool@tubes.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-18 08:34 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <dt4rhc5ltgoi4iquqo17n4oglfie50712u@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #460702 |
On 17 May 2017 14:33:38 -0700, Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> wrote: >Suggestions for sources of gate transformers, rated for 5 to 10kV continuous DC. >Or actually, small 1:1 or 1:2 transformers to make simple dc-dc converters for >5kV gate-drive. > >Will need 100 to 200 pieces, or more. Parts test rated for 5kV for one second, >or even for 1 minute, are not acceptable. Maybe parts rated for 15kV for one >minute would be good enough. I can design and hand-wind transformers to meet >this spec, but sheesh, I don't want to wind 200 or more transformers! You got my curiousity.... What is a gate transformer used for? Those are some high voltages you have there. Either you're powering some hefty transmitter tubes or powering a neon sign. But it's probably some commercial device that I never heard of.
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| From | Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-18 10:07 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ofkkcr02q3h@drn.newsguy.com> |
| In reply to | #460774 |
oldschool@tubes.com wrote...
>
> What is a gate transformer used for? Those are some high
> voltages you have there. Either you're powering some hefty
> transmitter tubes or powering a neon sign. But it's
> probably some commercial device that I never heard of.
It's for an AC bidirectional 10 kV MOSFET on/off switch,
with about 14 ohms of ON resistance, and low off leakage.
Each switch uses seven stages of 1.7kV SiC MOSFETs, and
we need 10 switches, that's 70 high-voltage gate drivers.
--
Thanks,
- Win
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| From | Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-18 10:53 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <d3edce3e-d4a9-44fb-8c0e-ed0a6d11a449@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #460807 |
Spiral turns on top and bottom layer of PCB. Prepeg can handle 10's of kV Cheers Klaus
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| From | speff <spehro@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-18 12:59 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <6dfc3c2f-8ba2-43b2-986b-24f2ff3cfc3e@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #460814 |
On Thursday, 18 May 2017 13:54:04 UTC-4, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > Spiral turns on top and bottom layer of PCB. Prepeg can handle 10's of kV > > Cheers > > Klaus http://www.elnamagnetics.com/wp-content/uploads/library/Ferroxcube-Documents/Planar_E_Cores.pdf
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| From | habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-31 22:03 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <592f21af$0$3628$426a34cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #460814 |
Le 18/05/2017 à 19:53, Klaus Kragelund a écrit : > Spiral turns on top and bottom layer of PCB. Prepeg can handle 10's of kV > > Cheers > > Klaus > Klaus, Are you sure PCB prepreg could sustain "10's of kV" ? I'm sure not ! My experience of that sort of things (10 or 15KV/AC 60 or 50Hz for 1 minute) is very far from a standard ... very far from !! Habib.
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| From | Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-31 13:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <63cfa10b-cdfd-4d57-9e28-dea4db0873b9@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #462481 |
Den onsdag den 31. maj 2017 kl. 22.04.11 UTC+2 skrev habib: > Le 18/05/2017 à 19:53, Klaus Kragelund a écrit : > > Spiral turns on top and bottom layer of PCB. Prepeg can handle 10's of kV > > > > Cheers > > > > Klaus > > > Klaus, > > Are you sure PCB prepreg could sustain "10's of kV" ? I'm sure not ! My > experience of that sort of things (10 or 15KV/AC 60 or 50Hz for 1 > minute) is very far from a standard ... very far from !! > http://www.magazines007.com/pdf/High-Voltage-PCDesign.pdf ? haven't read it
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| From | habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-31 23:04 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <592f2fd5$0$15331$426a74cc@news.free.fr> |
| In reply to | #462485 |
Le 31/05/2017 à 22:22, Lasse Langwadt Christensen a écrit : > Den onsdag den 31. maj 2017 kl. 22.04.11 UTC+2 skrev habib: >> Le 18/05/2017 à 19:53, Klaus Kragelund a écrit : >>> Spiral turns on top and bottom layer of PCB. Prepeg can handle 10's of kV >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Klaus >>> >> Klaus, >> >> Are you sure PCB prepreg could sustain "10's of kV" ? I'm sure not ! My >> experience of that sort of things (10 or 15KV/AC 60 or 50Hz for 1 >> minute) is very far from a standard ... very far from !! >> > > http://www.magazines007.com/pdf/High-Voltage-PCDesign.pdf ? > > haven't read it Klaus, No I have not read it yet, I will of course tomorrow morning at work. Mat be I'll learn something useful. Thx. Habib.
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-05-31 15:57 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <s9iuic999l0geju4m3fcbgtdcavkosj6cq@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #462488 |
On Wed, 31 May 2017 23:04:21 +0200, habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> wrote: >Le 31/05/2017 à 22:22, Lasse Langwadt Christensen a écrit : >> Den onsdag den 31. maj 2017 kl. 22.04.11 UTC+2 skrev habib: >>> Le 18/05/2017 à 19:53, Klaus Kragelund a écrit : >>>> Spiral turns on top and bottom layer of PCB. Prepeg can handle 10's of kV >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> Klaus >>>> >>> Klaus, >>> >>> Are you sure PCB prepreg could sustain "10's of kV" ? I'm sure not ! My >>> experience of that sort of things (10 or 15KV/AC 60 or 50Hz for 1 >>> minute) is very far from a standard ... very far from !! >>> >> >> http://www.magazines007.com/pdf/High-Voltage-PCDesign.pdf ? >> >> haven't read it >Klaus, > >No I have not read it yet, I will of course tomorrow morning at work. >Mat be I'll learn something useful. Thx. > >Habib. He says that 800 v/mil is a typical spec for FR4, and 300 v/mil is conservative for long-term use. That would be 300*62 = 18.6 KV side-to-side on a standard 62 mil board. Sounds good to me, a free transformer, no winding required. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc picosecond timing precision measurement jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com http://www.highlandtechnology.com
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| From | Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 07:47 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ogogqp$1fob$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #462496 |
On a sunny day (Wed, 31 May 2017 15:57:39 -0700) it happened John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in <s9iuic999l0geju4m3fcbgtdcavkosj6cq@4ax.com>: >On Wed, 31 May 2017 23:04:21 +0200, habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> >wrote: > >>Le 31/05/2017 à 22:22, Lasse Langwadt Christensen a écrit : >>> Den onsdag den 31. maj 2017 kl. 22.04.11 UTC+2 skrev habib: >>>> Le 18/05/2017 à 19:53, Klaus Kragelund a écrit : >>>>> Spiral turns on top and bottom layer of PCB. Prepeg can handle 10's of kV >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> >>>>> Klaus >>>>> >>>> Klaus, >>>> >>>> Are you sure PCB prepreg could sustain "10's of kV" ? I'm sure not ! My >>>> experience of that sort of things (10 or 15KV/AC 60 or 50Hz for 1 >>>> minute) is very far from a standard ... very far from !! >>>> >>> >>> http://www.magazines007.com/pdf/High-Voltage-PCDesign.pdf ? >>> >>> haven't read it >>Klaus, >> >>No I have not read it yet, I will of course tomorrow morning at work. >>Mat be I'll learn something useful. Thx. >> >>Habib. > >He says that 800 v/mil is a typical spec for FR4, and 300 v/mil is >conservative for long-term use. That would be 300*62 = 18.6 KV >side-to-side on a standard 62 mil board. > >Sounds good to me, a free transformer, no winding required. Surface size depends on number of turns, current, frequency, do you need some core material?, board surface outside needs some cover (moisture in air high relative humidity) else it is just a big capacitor to air, would not trust it at 18 kV for a microsecond. You would need to cover it with several mm of some isolating stuff, not just 'solder screen'. Yes I have read that paper, not much new we did not know. Go optical.
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 07:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <v180jc9cjq7vv5s5bhg3lieqpsnkvdt7m6@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #462538 |
On Thu, 01 Jun 2017 07:47:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote: >On a sunny day (Wed, 31 May 2017 15:57:39 -0700) it happened John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in ><s9iuic999l0geju4m3fcbgtdcavkosj6cq@4ax.com>: > >>On Wed, 31 May 2017 23:04:21 +0200, habib <h.bouazizviallet@free.fr> >>wrote: >> >>>Le 31/05/2017 à 22:22, Lasse Langwadt Christensen a écrit : >>>> Den onsdag den 31. maj 2017 kl. 22.04.11 UTC+2 skrev habib: >>>>> Le 18/05/2017 à 19:53, Klaus Kragelund a écrit : >>>>>> Spiral turns on top and bottom layer of PCB. Prepeg can handle 10's of kV >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> >>>>>> Klaus >>>>>> >>>>> Klaus, >>>>> >>>>> Are you sure PCB prepreg could sustain "10's of kV" ? I'm sure not ! My >>>>> experience of that sort of things (10 or 15KV/AC 60 or 50Hz for 1 >>>>> minute) is very far from a standard ... very far from !! >>>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.magazines007.com/pdf/High-Voltage-PCDesign.pdf ? >>>> >>>> haven't read it >>>Klaus, >>> >>>No I have not read it yet, I will of course tomorrow morning at work. >>>Mat be I'll learn something useful. Thx. >>> >>>Habib. >> >>He says that 800 v/mil is a typical spec for FR4, and 300 v/mil is >>conservative for long-term use. That would be 300*62 = 18.6 KV >>side-to-side on a standard 62 mil board. >> >>Sounds good to me, a free transformer, no winding required. > >Surface size depends on number of turns, current, frequency, >do you need some core material?, board surface outside needs some cover >(moisture in air high relative humidity) else it is just a big capacitor to air, >would not trust it at 18 kV for a microsecond. >You would need to cover it with several mm of some isolating stuff, >not just 'solder screen'. >Yes I have read that paper, not much new we did not know. > >Go optical. > I assume that Win needs to couple the gate drive power as well as the signal. Optical is fine for signal, but an expensive way to couple much power. Anything that's 10KV can pick up dust and make corona, PCB or whatever. I think one could transfer ballpark one watt through a PCB in roughly a square inch without a core. That's a guess. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
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| From | Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 14:28 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <ogp8ah$o9s$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #462552 |
On a sunny day (Thu, 01 Jun 2017 07:13:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in <v180jc9cjq7vv5s5bhg3lieqpsnkvdt7m6@4ax.com>: >I assume that Win needs to couple the gate drive power as well as the >signal. Optical is fine for signal, but an expensive way to couple >much power. True, like I said, big Edison style bulb, small solar cells. >Anything that's 10KV can pick up dust and make corona, PCB or >whatever. > >I think one could transfer ballpark one watt through a PCB in roughly >a square inch without a core. That's a guess. Oh much more, 100 W should be no problem, use a planar coil for the top one that works even better, like this: http://panteltje.com/pub/inductive_coupling_real_power_300Vpp_IMG_6092.JPG Your traces need to be thick enough and the coil area large enough, that is all.
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| From | Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 07:42 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <3b217d67-ff72-48ed-9b06-c5e7ce6780ca@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #462557 |
On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 4:28:38 PM UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote: > On a sunny day (Thu, 01 Jun 2017 07:13:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin > <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in > <v180jc9cjq7vv5s5bhg3lieqpsnkvdt7m6@4ax.com>: > > >I assume that Win needs to couple the gate drive power as well as the > >signal. Optical is fine for signal, but an expensive way to couple > >much power. > > True, like I said, big Edison style bulb, small solar cells. > > > >Anything that's 10KV can pick up dust and make corona, PCB or > >whatever. > > > >I think one could transfer ballpark one watt through a PCB in roughly > >a square inch without a core. That's a guess. > > Oh much more, > 100 W should be no problem, use a planar coil for the top one that works even better, > like this: > http://panteltje.com/pub/inductive_coupling_real_power_300Vpp_IMG_6092.JPG > > Your traces need to be thick enough and the coil area large enough, that is all. I have seen a coreless spiral PCB transformer rated at 50W. But, it's kind off big (about 40mm diameter). Operation at 8MHz Cheers Klaus
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| From | Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 07:43 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <63ec444f-08fd-4bfb-b78e-40905140ca4a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #462562 |
On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 4:42:53 PM UTC+2, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 4:28:38 PM UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote: > > On a sunny day (Thu, 01 Jun 2017 07:13:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin > > <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in > > <v180jc9cjq7vv5s5bhg3lieqpsnkvdt7m6@4ax.com>: > > > > >I assume that Win needs to couple the gate drive power as well as the > > >signal. Optical is fine for signal, but an expensive way to couple > > >much power. > > > > True, like I said, big Edison style bulb, small solar cells. > > > > > > >Anything that's 10KV can pick up dust and make corona, PCB or > > >whatever. > > > > > >I think one could transfer ballpark one watt through a PCB in roughly > > >a square inch without a core. That's a guess. > > > > Oh much more, > > 100 W should be no problem, use a planar coil for the top one that works even better, > > like this: > > http://panteltje.com/pub/inductive_coupling_real_power_300Vpp_IMG_6092.JPG > > > > Your traces need to be thick enough and the coil area large enough, that is all. > > I have seen a coreless spiral PCB transformer rated at 50W. But, it's kind off big (about 40mm diameter). Operation at 8MHz > > Cheers > > Klaus One example: http://waset.org/publications/5540/coreless-printed-circuit-board-pcb-stepdown-transformers-for-dc-dc-converter-applications
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| From | John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-01 08:47 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <vld0jclm0t6m1ikmgqu3r6rff2s6m626di@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #462563 |
On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 07:43:14 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: >On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 4:42:53 PM UTC+2, Klaus Kragelund wrote: >> On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 4:28:38 PM UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote: >> > On a sunny day (Thu, 01 Jun 2017 07:13:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin >> > <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in >> > <v180jc9cjq7vv5s5bhg3lieqpsnkvdt7m6@4ax.com>: >> > >> > >I assume that Win needs to couple the gate drive power as well as the >> > >signal. Optical is fine for signal, but an expensive way to couple >> > >much power. >> > >> > True, like I said, big Edison style bulb, small solar cells. >> > >> > >> > >Anything that's 10KV can pick up dust and make corona, PCB or >> > >whatever. >> > > >> > >I think one could transfer ballpark one watt through a PCB in roughly >> > >a square inch without a core. That's a guess. >> > >> > Oh much more, >> > 100 W should be no problem, use a planar coil for the top one that works even better, >> > like this: >> > http://panteltje.com/pub/inductive_coupling_real_power_300Vpp_IMG_6092.JPG >> > >> > Your traces need to be thick enough and the coil area large enough, that is all. >> >> I have seen a coreless spiral PCB transformer rated at 50W. But, it's kind off big (about 40mm diameter). Operation at 8MHz >> >> Cheers >> >> Klaus > >One example: > >http://waset.org/publications/5540/coreless-printed-circuit-board-pcb-stepdown-transformers-for-dc-dc-converter-applications The vias are tricky in a high-voltage application, getting the winding ends out. A wire jumper, or some long surface-mount equivalent, would help. Like, a really long zero-ohm jumper. -- John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc lunatic fringe electronics
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| From | klaus.kragelund@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-06-02 01:25 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <5727e1f9-f451-465f-922f-17d43c30427a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #462577 |
On Thursday, 1 June 2017 17:48:03 UTC+2, John Larkin wrote: > On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 07:43:14 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund > <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote: > > >On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 4:42:53 PM UTC+2, Klaus Kragelund wrote: > >> On Thursday, June 1, 2017 at 4:28:38 PM UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote: > >> > On a sunny day (Thu, 01 Jun 2017 07:13:56 -0700) it happened John Larkin > >> > <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in > >> > <v180jc9cjq7vv5s5bhg3lieqpsnkvdt7m6@4ax.com>: > >> > > >> > >I assume that Win needs to couple the gate drive power as well as the > >> > >signal. Optical is fine for signal, but an expensive way to couple > >> > >much power. > >> > > >> > True, like I said, big Edison style bulb, small solar cells. > >> > > >> > > >> > >Anything that's 10KV can pick up dust and make corona, PCB or > >> > >whatever. > >> > > > >> > >I think one could transfer ballpark one watt through a PCB in roughly > >> > >a square inch without a core. That's a guess. > >> > > >> > Oh much more, > >> > 100 W should be no problem, use a planar coil for the top one that works even better, > >> > like this: > >> > http://panteltje.com/pub/inductive_coupling_real_power_300Vpp_IMG_6092.JPG > >> > > >> > Your traces need to be thick enough and the coil area large enough, that is all. > >> > >> I have seen a coreless spiral PCB transformer rated at 50W. But, it's kind off big (about 40mm diameter). Operation at 8MHz > >> > >> Cheers > >> > >> Klaus > > > >One example: > > > >http://waset.org/publications/5540/coreless-printed-circuit-board-pcb-stepdown-transformers-for-dc-dc-converter-applications > > The vias are tricky in a high-voltage application, getting the winding > ends out. A wire jumper, or some long surface-mount equivalent, would > help. Like, a really long zero-ohm jumper. > Ever heard of burried vias?
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