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Again with flux removal

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  Again with flux removal George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-25 11:32 -0700
    Re: Again with flux removal John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> - 2017-05-25 14:37 -0500
    Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 15:54 -0400
      Re: Again with flux removal Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2017-05-25 16:22 -0500
    Re: Again with flux removal Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-05-25 16:20 -0400
      Re: Again with flux removal Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net> - 2017-05-25 21:25 +0000
        Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 18:31 -0400
          Re: Again with flux removal Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net> - 2017-05-26 15:05 +0000
            Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 12:06 -0400
          Re: Again with flux removal DemonicTubes <tlackie@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 10:27 -0700
        Re: Again with flux removal George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-26 08:48 -0700
        Re: Again with flux removal Joseph Gwinn <gwinn@comcast.net> - 2017-05-26 18:06 -0400
          Re: Again with flux removal George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-26 17:32 -0700
        Re: Again with flux removal Joseph Gwinn <gwinn@comcast.net> - 2017-05-26 18:13 -0400
        Re: Again with flux removal (Test - ignore duplicate) Joseph Gwinn <gwinn@comcast.net> - 2017-05-26 18:20 -0400
        Re: Again with flux removal (Test - ignore duplicate) Joseph Gwinn <gwinn@comcast.net> - 2017-05-26 18:35 -0400
    Re: Again with flux removal Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2017-05-25 17:15 -0700
      Re: Again with flux removal George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-26 06:39 -0700
        Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 12:08 -0400
          Re: Again with flux removal Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2017-05-26 10:12 -0700
            Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 14:08 -0400
              Re: Again with flux removal Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2017-05-26 13:56 -0700
                Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 20:35 -0400
                  Re: Again with flux removal Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2017-05-26 18:10 -0700
                    Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 21:28 -0400
        Re: Again with flux removal Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2017-05-26 09:45 -0700
          Re: Again with flux removal Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-26 10:02 -0700
            Re: Again with flux removal Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2017-05-26 10:43 -0700
              Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 14:00 -0400
    Re: Again with flux removal Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-05-25 22:43 -0400
      Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 00:43 -0400
        Re: Again with flux removal Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net> - 2017-05-26 19:16 +0000
          Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 20:46 -0400
            Re: Again with flux removal Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net> - 2017-05-27 02:08 +0000
              Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 01:06 -0400
                Re: Again with flux removal Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net> - 2017-05-27 05:38 +0000
                Re: Again with flux removal Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-27 08:17 +0000
                  Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 04:37 -0400
                    Re: Again with flux removal Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-27 10:33 +0000
                      Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 11:51 -0400
                        Re: Again with flux removal Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-27 15:59 +0000
                          Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 12:13 -0400
                            Re: Again with flux removal Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-27 16:27 +0000
      Re: Again with flux removal George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-26 07:00 -0700
        Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 12:13 -0400
    Re: Again with flux removal whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 21:28 -0700
      Re: Again with flux removal George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-26 07:04 -0700
        Re: Again with flux removal rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 12:16 -0400
        Re: Again with flux removal whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 14:33 -0700

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#461848

Jeff Liebermann wrote on 5/26/2017 1:12 PM:
> On Fri, 26 May 2017 12:08:34 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Even very hard water won't leave much residue on boards.  At worst it
>> would be a very fine powder that should rub off easily.  The photos on
>> the web pages Jeff pointed to were from decades of accumulation.
>
> True.  See my previous rant on the effects of the water heater on lime
> concentration.  Cold water doesn't hold very much lime.  Hot water,
> run through a water heater that has the bottom of the heater encrusted
> with lime deposits, is going to have a much higher lime concentration.
> I have a steel tea pot on top of my wood burner.  I boil water in it
> when the wood burner is running to keep the humidity high in the
> house.  I would guess about 2 liters per day for the last 5 months.
> The lid and spout, where there is a temperature drop and the steam
> condenses, it encrusted with white rocks.  It's not a huge amount like
> in the photos, but spread over a large area, like a pile of PCB's, it
> will be quite visible.

Think about what is wrong with this picture.  Steam is *pure* water. 
Condensing steam won't add any minerals to the surface.  However, if the 
pot is actually boiling you get wet steam which has tiny water droplets. 
  They aren't going to deposit much minerals on a surface even if that 
surface is cooler because the minerals were able to be dissolved when 
the water was cool.

In this case mineral deposition happens when the water is boiled away 
leaving the minerals behind.

In your water heater the minerals are deposited very little, but over a 
long time it adds up.

-- 

Rick C

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#461873

On Fri, 26 May 2017 14:08:36 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann wrote on 5/26/2017 1:12 PM:
>> On Fri, 26 May 2017 12:08:34 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Even very hard water won't leave much residue on boards.  At worst it
>>> would be a very fine powder that should rub off easily.  The photos on
>>> the web pages Jeff pointed to were from decades of accumulation.
>>
>> True.  See my previous rant on the effects of the water heater on lime
>> concentration.  Cold water doesn't hold very much lime.  Hot water,
>> run through a water heater that has the bottom of the heater encrusted
>> with lime deposits, is going to have a much higher lime concentration.
>> I have a steel tea pot on top of my wood burner.  I boil water in it
>> when the wood burner is running to keep the humidity high in the
>> house.  I would guess about 2 liters per day for the last 5 months.
>> The lid and spout, where there is a temperature drop and the steam
>> condenses, it encrusted with white rocks.  It's not a huge amount like
>> in the photos, but spread over a large area, like a pile of PCB's, it
>> will be quite visible.

>Think about what is wrong with this picture.  Steam is *pure* water. 
>Condensing steam won't add any minerals to the surface.  However, if the 
>pot is actually boiling you get wet steam which has tiny water droplets. 
>  They aren't going to deposit much minerals on a surface even if that 
>surface is cooler because the minerals were able to be dissolved when 
>the water was cool.
>
>In this case mineral deposition happens when the water is boiled away 
>leaving the minerals behind.
>
>In your water heater the minerals are deposited very little, but over a 
>long time it adds up.

That makes good sense and I would normally agree 100.0%.  However,
that's not quite what I'm seeing.  Here's the teapot in question:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/teapot.jpg>
Unfortunately, I scraped off most of the lime that had built up during
the winter from the edge of the stainless lid, and around the rusted
area of the teapot.  It's difficult to see on the white teapot, but
there was a substantial encrustation.  You can sorta see it in this
2010 photo (different teapot but same brand and model):
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/wood-burner.html>
I also scraped off some lime from the inside of the pouring spout, but
couldn't reach it all.  When I started, the entire inside of the spout
was encrusted with lime.  Also, notice the lime spot on the top of the
wood burner.  The bottom of the tea pot has a solid layer of lime over
the entire surface.

Some of the aforementioned lime deposits came directly from the water,
with its increased lime concentration would be expected to be
responsible for the bulk of the lime deposits.  Yet, around the lid
and inside the spout would be coming from condensed steam.  If it were
pure dry steam (no saturated liquid water), then I agree.  It's pure
steam and would contain no lime.  However, at lower temperatures, the
steam contains quite a bit of water droplets, all loaded with lime.
That's where the lime around the lid, spout, and wood burner surface
are coming from.

Incidentally, the label on the teapot says 2.3qts (2.2L).  SLV water
runs about 300 ppm TDS (total dissolved solids) in 2015:
<http://www.slvwd.com/ccr/SLVWD-CCR2016-FINAL.pdf>
ppm is the same as mg/liter, so my 2.2L teapot deposits 
  2.2L * 300mg/L = 660mg 
of lime from each filling.  I refill the teapot an average of twice
per evening, for 150 days of winter.  Total deposited is:
  660mg/teapot * 2 fillings * 150 days = 200 grams (about 7 oz).
That's about 2 of the small salt shakers in this photo:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/salt.jpg>
Most of this gets caked onto the bottom of the teapot, but a fairly
large precentage is sprayed all over the pot and the wood burner.  

Note:  I don't drink water from this teapot or use it to make tea.


-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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#461925

Jeff Liebermann wrote on 5/26/2017 4:56 PM:
> On Fri, 26 May 2017 14:08:36 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Jeff Liebermann wrote on 5/26/2017 1:12 PM:
>>> On Fri, 26 May 2017 12:08:34 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Even very hard water won't leave much residue on boards.  At worst it
>>>> would be a very fine powder that should rub off easily.  The photos on
>>>> the web pages Jeff pointed to were from decades of accumulation.
>>>
>>> True.  See my previous rant on the effects of the water heater on lime
>>> concentration.  Cold water doesn't hold very much lime.  Hot water,
>>> run through a water heater that has the bottom of the heater encrusted
>>> with lime deposits, is going to have a much higher lime concentration.
>>> I have a steel tea pot on top of my wood burner.  I boil water in it
>>> when the wood burner is running to keep the humidity high in the
>>> house.  I would guess about 2 liters per day for the last 5 months.
>>> The lid and spout, where there is a temperature drop and the steam
>>> condenses, it encrusted with white rocks.  It's not a huge amount like
>>> in the photos, but spread over a large area, like a pile of PCB's, it
>>> will be quite visible.
>
>> Think about what is wrong with this picture.  Steam is *pure* water.
>> Condensing steam won't add any minerals to the surface.  However, if the
>> pot is actually boiling you get wet steam which has tiny water droplets.
>>  They aren't going to deposit much minerals on a surface even if that
>> surface is cooler because the minerals were able to be dissolved when
>> the water was cool.
>>
>> In this case mineral deposition happens when the water is boiled away
>> leaving the minerals behind.
>>
>> In your water heater the minerals are deposited very little, but over a
>> long time it adds up.
>
> That makes good sense and I would normally agree 100.0%.  However,
> that's not quite what I'm seeing.  Here's the teapot in question:
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/teapot.jpg>
> Unfortunately, I scraped off most of the lime that had built up during
> the winter from the edge of the stainless lid, and around the rusted
> area of the teapot.  It's difficult to see on the white teapot, but
> there was a substantial encrustation.  You can sorta see it in this
> 2010 photo (different teapot but same brand and model):
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/wood-burner.html>
> I also scraped off some lime from the inside of the pouring spout, but
> couldn't reach it all.  When I started, the entire inside of the spout
> was encrusted with lime.  Also, notice the lime spot on the top of the
> wood burner.  The bottom of the tea pot has a solid layer of lime over
> the entire surface.
>
> Some of the aforementioned lime deposits came directly from the water,
> with its increased lime concentration would be expected to be
> responsible for the bulk of the lime deposits.  Yet, around the lid
> and inside the spout would be coming from condensed steam.  If it were
> pure dry steam (no saturated liquid water), then I agree.  It's pure
> steam and would contain no lime.  However, at lower temperatures, the
> steam contains quite a bit of water droplets, all loaded with lime.
> That's where the lime around the lid, spout, and wood burner surface
> are coming from.
>
> Incidentally, the label on the teapot says 2.3qts (2.2L).  SLV water
> runs about 300 ppm TDS (total dissolved solids) in 2015:
> <http://www.slvwd.com/ccr/SLVWD-CCR2016-FINAL.pdf>
> ppm is the same as mg/liter, so my 2.2L teapot deposits
>   2.2L * 300mg/L = 660mg
> of lime from each filling.  I refill the teapot an average of twice
> per evening, for 150 days of winter.  Total deposited is:
>   660mg/teapot * 2 fillings * 150 days = 200 grams (about 7 oz).
> That's about 2 of the small salt shakers in this photo:
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/salt.jpg>
> Most of this gets caked onto the bottom of the teapot, but a fairly
> large precentage is sprayed all over the pot and the wood burner.
>
> Note:  I don't drink water from this teapot or use it to make tea.

You didn't say if the water in the pot actually boils or not.  That 
makes a huge difference as boiling puts droplets in the air which 
contain minerals.  The issue of the steam being dry or wet is not really 
the concern.  Steam can start out dry and condense as it cools to become 
wet.  Then it still has no significant minerals.

So if you pot is boiling it is throwing minerals all over the place.  I 
wouldn't be surprised if everything in the room developed a fine mineral 
dust if you boil two pots of water a night.

-- 

Rick C

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#461931

On Fri, 26 May 2017 20:35:34 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

>You didn't say if the water in the pot actually boils or not.

True, but boiling was implied in my comments that I use the teapot to
humidify the house and that I replenish the water 2-3 times an
evening.  However, it doesn't boil all the time.  It takes about 10-15
minutes from starting the fire to begin boiling and sometimes stops
boiling when the fire dies down late in the evening.

>That 
>makes a huge difference as boiling puts droplets in the air which 
>contain minerals.  The issue of the steam being dry or wet is not really 
>the concern.  Steam can start out dry and condense as it cools to become 
>wet.  Then it still has no significant minerals.

Good point.  So the question is how much of the water comes off as
steam and how much is water vapor, where only the water vapor contains
lime.  I can't measure or even guess the ratio.

>So if you pot is boiling it is throwing minerals all over the place.  I 
>wouldn't be surprised if everything in the room developed a fine mineral 
>dust if you boil two pots of water a night.

It might, but it's difficult to see under the layer of fine ash dust
deposited around the house every time I stupidly open the door without
first opening the damper (so that the ash goes up the flue pipe and
not out the front door).  I still have a few places in the house with
some of this dust.  It does look somewhat light colored.  I'll test it
under a microscope with some vinegar and see if it fizzes.

-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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#461934

Jeff Liebermann wrote on 5/26/2017 9:10 PM:
> On Fri, 26 May 2017 20:35:34 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You didn't say if the water in the pot actually boils or not.
>
> True, but boiling was implied in my comments that I use the teapot to
> humidify the house and that I replenish the water 2-3 times an
> evening.  However, it doesn't boil all the time.  It takes about 10-15
> minutes from starting the fire to begin boiling and sometimes stops
> boiling when the fire dies down late in the evening.
>
>> That
>> makes a huge difference as boiling puts droplets in the air which
>> contain minerals.  The issue of the steam being dry or wet is not really
>> the concern.  Steam can start out dry and condense as it cools to become
>> wet.  Then it still has no significant minerals.
>
> Good point.  So the question is how much of the water comes off as
> steam and how much is water vapor, where only the water vapor contains
> lime.  I can't measure or even guess the ratio.
>
>> So if you pot is boiling it is throwing minerals all over the place.  I
>> wouldn't be surprised if everything in the room developed a fine mineral
>> dust if you boil two pots of water a night.
>
> It might, but it's difficult to see under the layer of fine ash dust
> deposited around the house every time I stupidly open the door without
> first opening the damper (so that the ash goes up the flue pipe and
> not out the front door).  I still have a few places in the house with
> some of this dust.  It does look somewhat light colored.  I'll test it
> under a microscope with some vinegar and see if it fizzes.

Water vapor is no different from steam.  They are both gasses.  Water 
droplets are not vapor.

-- 

Rick C

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#461827

On Fri, 26 May 2017 06:39:02 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 8:15:48 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> I have a guess(tm).  Did you wash these PCB's in hot tap water?  If
>> so, that might be the source of the white stuff.

>Right hot tap water. 
>The pcb looks great now.  (Well except for a few of my less 
>than ideal (smd) solder joints.)
>
>George h.  

I originally thought that your hot water wash may have CAUSED the
white lime (hard water) residue.  However, if a hot water wash removes
the white stuff, but organic solvents won't touch it, then it's highly
likely that it's a lime problem.  You can also verify that with a few
drops of white vinegar.  If white stuff foams slightly, it's probably
lime.

You might want to invest in a TDS (total dissolved solids) test meter
or a hard water alkalinity test strip kit:
<http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=TDS+meter>
<http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=alkalinity+test+strip>
The TDS meter will indicate dissolved calcium, magnesium, plus various
salts.  The alkalinity test strips will show just calcium and
magnesium.

Incidentally, the way I discovered the lime problem was rather
disgusting.  We were wave soldering our PCB's and using a common home
dish washer for water soluable flux cleaning.  No filtering of any
type from the tap water.  Over the years, the bottom of the water
heater that fed the dish washer and factory bathrooms filled with lime
deposits.  The lime concentration in the hot water slowly increased
until PCB's were coated with white splotches.  While everyone was
looking at the soldering process as the cause, I noticed that the
white enamel surface of the dishwasher was encrusted with white crud,
which was difficult to see, but could be felt.  The PCB line
eventually got its own water heater, a new dishwasher, some new
plumbing, and a filter of sorts, which solved the lime problem.


-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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#461832

Den fredag den 26. maj 2017 kl. 18.45.13 UTC+2 skrev Jeff Liebermann:
> On Fri, 26 May 2017 06:39:02 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
> 
> >On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 8:15:48 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> I have a guess(tm).  Did you wash these PCB's in hot tap water?  If
> >> so, that might be the source of the white stuff.
> 
> >Right hot tap water. 
> >The pcb looks great now.  (Well except for a few of my less 
> >than ideal (smd) solder joints.)
> >
> >George h.  
> 
> I originally thought that your hot water wash may have CAUSED the
> white lime (hard water) residue.  However, if a hot water wash removes
> the white stuff, but organic solvents won't touch it, then it's highly
> likely that it's a lime problem.  You can also verify that with a few
> drops of white vinegar.  If white stuff foams slightly, it's probably
> lime.
> 
> You might want to invest in a TDS (total dissolved solids) test meter
> or a hard water alkalinity test strip kit:
> <http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=TDS+meter>
> <http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=alkalinity+test+strip>
> The TDS meter will indicate dissolved calcium, magnesium, plus various
> salts.  The alkalinity test strips will show just calcium and
> magnesium.
> 
> Incidentally, the way I discovered the lime problem was rather
> disgusting.  We were wave soldering our PCB's and using a common home
> dish washer for water soluable flux cleaning.  No filtering of any
> type from the tap water.  Over the years, the bottom of the water
> heater that fed the dish washer and factory bathrooms filled with lime
> deposits.  The lime concentration in the hot water slowly increased
> until PCB's were coated with white splotches.  While everyone was
> looking at the soldering process as the cause, I noticed that the
> white enamel surface of the dishwasher was encrusted with white crud,
> which was difficult to see, but could be felt.  The PCB line
> eventually got its own water heater, a new dishwasher, some new
> plumbing, and a filter of sorts, which solved the lime problem.
> 

did you not put salt in machine? afaiu the reason a dish washer needs salt 
is that it is used to regenerate the ion exchange water softener 

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#461843

On Fri, 26 May 2017 10:02:55 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

>did you not put salt in machine? afaiu the reason a dish washer needs salt 
>is that it is used to regenerate the ion exchange water softener 

Nope.  No salt and no water softener full of salt in the system.  When
we asked about a water softener, someone found that it does something
bad to the water soluable flux that we were using.  I don't recall the
details.


-- 
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

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#461846

Jeff Liebermann wrote on 5/26/2017 1:43 PM:
> On Fri, 26 May 2017 10:02:55 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
> <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
>
>> did you not put salt in machine? afaiu the reason a dish washer needs salt
>> is that it is used to regenerate the ion exchange water softener
>
> Nope.  No salt and no water softener full of salt in the system.  When
> we asked about a water softener, someone found that it does something
> bad to the water soluable flux that we were using.  I don't recall the
> details.

A water softener doen't clean the water in any way, it replaces heavy 
ions like calcium with the light sodium ion which doesn't affect water 
the same way.  They are also called "ion exchange".  The regeneration 
Lasse is talking about is *inside* the water softener to "regenerate" 
the ion exchange beeds (replace the heavy minerals with sodium).

If sodium is not good for your board wash, you don't want to use a water 
softener.  Filters are not effective against dissolved ions unless they 
are very, very fine such as reverse osmosis filters.  That's a whole 
other level of cost though.

-- 

Rick C

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#461761

On Thu, 25 May 2017 11:32:14 -0700 (PDT), the renowned George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

>Well this is a good thread
>https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=&hl=en#!searchin/sci.electronics.design/rosin$20flux%7Csort:relevance/sci.electronics.design/iYOz2oYarTY/xFZwiD-1izYJ
>
>(Sorry I'm not sure how to rip out the search function.)
>
>Oh and an updated link to Jeff L's White residue pdf
>http://www.kester.com/Portals/0/Documents/Knowledge%20Base/White_Residue.pdf
>
>Anyway I've got a few hand built pcb's Kester 44 solder/ rosin flux.
>They are not high impedance and I just want them to look nice.  
>
>I tried cleaning with IPA only... looked like crap.
>
>So I'm using IPA then detergent and hot water.  
>Well the detergent is this "awesome cleaner"
>https://www.amazon.com/LAS-PURPOSE-CONCENTRATED-TOTALLY-AWESOME/dp/B0017KT3IM
>
>(as seen on TV :^)
>
>Any thoughts? 
>George H. 

For prototypes I use Recochem lacquer thinner from Crappy Tire and a
toothbrush. The boards look great and are easy to inspect. 

Not all lacquer thinners are equal- this one is relatively low in
acetone, about 10%. 

https://web.chempliance.com/MSDS/OpenDoc.ashx?DocID=24450

It's mostly toluene + methanol + xylene. It can take markings off of
some parts, but it is nowhere as bad as pure acetone. 

--sp 


-- 
Best regards, 
Spehro Pefhany

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#461766

Spehro Pefhany wrote on 5/25/2017 10:43 PM:
> On Thu, 25 May 2017 11:32:14 -0700 (PDT), the renowned George Herold
> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
>
>> Well this is a good thread
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=&hl=en#!searchin/sci.electronics.design/rosin$20flux%7Csort:relevance/sci.electronics.design/iYOz2oYarTY/xFZwiD-1izYJ
>>
>> (Sorry I'm not sure how to rip out the search function.)
>>
>> Oh and an updated link to Jeff L's White residue pdf
>> http://www.kester.com/Portals/0/Documents/Knowledge%20Base/White_Residue.pdf
>>
>> Anyway I've got a few hand built pcb's Kester 44 solder/ rosin flux.
>> They are not high impedance and I just want them to look nice.
>>
>> I tried cleaning with IPA only... looked like crap.
>>
>> So I'm using IPA then detergent and hot water.
>> Well the detergent is this "awesome cleaner"
>> https://www.amazon.com/LAS-PURPOSE-CONCENTRATED-TOTALLY-AWESOME/dp/B0017KT3IM
>>
>> (as seen on TV :^)
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>> George H.
>
> For prototypes I use Recochem lacquer thinner from Crappy Tire and a
> toothbrush. The boards look great and are easy to inspect.
>
> Not all lacquer thinners are equal- this one is relatively low in
> acetone, about 10%.
>
> https://web.chempliance.com/MSDS/OpenDoc.ashx?DocID=24450
>
> It's mostly toluene + methanol + xylene. It can take markings off of
> some parts, but it is nowhere as bad as pure acetone.

Seems like a bit of overkill.  Does ethyl alcohol not work for you? 
Toluene and xylene have been found to increase the risk of some 
leukemias.  I can't see a reason to use them at all if you can avoid it.

-- 

Rick C

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#461857

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
> Spehro Pefhany wrote on 5/25/2017 10:43 PM:
>> On Thu, 25 May 2017 11:32:14 -0700 (PDT), the renowned George Herold
>> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Well this is a good thread
>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=&hl=en#!searchin/sci.electronics.design/rosin$20flux%7Csort:relevance/sci.electronics.design/iYOz2oYarTY/xFZwiD-1izYJ
>>>
>>> (Sorry I'm not sure how to rip out the search function.)
>>>
>>> Oh and an updated link to Jeff L's White residue pdf
>>> http://www.kester.com/Portals/0/Documents/Knowledge%20Base/White_Residue.pdf
>>>
>>> Anyway I've got a few hand built pcb's Kester 44 solder/ rosin flux.
>>> They are not high impedance and I just want them to look nice.
>>>
>>> I tried cleaning with IPA only... looked like crap.
>>>
>>> So I'm using IPA then detergent and hot water.
>>> Well the detergent is this "awesome cleaner"
>>> https://www.amazon.com/LAS-PURPOSE-CONCENTRATED-TOTALLY-AWESOME/dp/B0017KT3IM
>>>
>>> (as seen on TV :^)
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>> George H.
>>
>> For prototypes I use Recochem lacquer thinner from Crappy Tire and a
>> toothbrush. The boards look great and are easy to inspect.
>>
>> Not all lacquer thinners are equal- this one is relatively low in
>> acetone, about 10%.
>>
>> https://web.chempliance.com/MSDS/OpenDoc.ashx?DocID=24450
>>
>> It's mostly toluene + methanol + xylene. It can take markings off of
>> some parts, but it is nowhere as bad as pure acetone.
> 
> Seems like a bit of overkill.  Does ethyl alcohol not work for you? 
> Toluene and xylene have been found to increase the risk of some 
> leukemias.  I can't see a reason to use them at all if you can avoid it.

Are you from Califonia? They must've been adding something to the water so
their entire population is zombified...

If you look at most any solvent sold in home improvement stores all over the
country you would almost certainly find some note kinda "Not for sale in
California"...

It is definitely harmful if you have to breethe it 5 days a week for full 8
hours but sniffing it occasionally from time to time is no more harmful than
going outside and taking a breath of "fresh air" filled with all kinds of
pollutants. Even pure hydrogen dioxide is lethal in proper doses...

---
******************************************************************
*  KSI@home    KOI8 Net  < >  The impossible we do immediately.  *
*  Las Vegas   NV, USA   < >  Miracles require 24-hour notice.   *
******************************************************************

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#461927

Sergey Kubushyn wrote on 5/26/2017 3:16 PM:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Spehro Pefhany wrote on 5/25/2017 10:43 PM:
>>> On Thu, 25 May 2017 11:32:14 -0700 (PDT), the renowned George Herold
>>> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well this is a good thread
>>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=&hl=en#!searchin/sci.electronics.design/rosin$20flux%7Csort:relevance/sci.electronics.design/iYOz2oYarTY/xFZwiD-1izYJ
>>>>
>>>> (Sorry I'm not sure how to rip out the search function.)
>>>>
>>>> Oh and an updated link to Jeff L's White residue pdf
>>>> http://www.kester.com/Portals/0/Documents/Knowledge%20Base/White_Residue.pdf
>>>>
>>>> Anyway I've got a few hand built pcb's Kester 44 solder/ rosin flux.
>>>> They are not high impedance and I just want them to look nice.
>>>>
>>>> I tried cleaning with IPA only... looked like crap.
>>>>
>>>> So I'm using IPA then detergent and hot water.
>>>> Well the detergent is this "awesome cleaner"
>>>> https://www.amazon.com/LAS-PURPOSE-CONCENTRATED-TOTALLY-AWESOME/dp/B0017KT3IM
>>>>
>>>> (as seen on TV :^)
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>> George H.
>>>
>>> For prototypes I use Recochem lacquer thinner from Crappy Tire and a
>>> toothbrush. The boards look great and are easy to inspect.
>>>
>>> Not all lacquer thinners are equal- this one is relatively low in
>>> acetone, about 10%.
>>>
>>> https://web.chempliance.com/MSDS/OpenDoc.ashx?DocID=24450
>>>
>>> It's mostly toluene + methanol + xylene. It can take markings off of
>>> some parts, but it is nowhere as bad as pure acetone.
>>
>> Seems like a bit of overkill.  Does ethyl alcohol not work for you?
>> Toluene and xylene have been found to increase the risk of some
>> leukemias.  I can't see a reason to use them at all if you can avoid it.
>
> Are you from Califonia? They must've been adding something to the water so
> their entire population is zombified...
>
> If you look at most any solvent sold in home improvement stores all over the
> country you would almost certainly find some note kinda "Not for sale in
> California"...
>
> It is definitely harmful if you have to breethe it 5 days a week for full 8
> hours but sniffing it occasionally from time to time is no more harmful than
> going outside and taking a breath of "fresh air" filled with all kinds of
> pollutants. Even pure hydrogen dioxide is lethal in proper doses...

Yes, that is the typical ignorant response to health effects of 
substances.  You are free to breath what you wish.  As I mentioned, the 
impact of individual substances are often not so great so as to warrant 
banning outright.  There is a thing called augmentation.  Two substances 
cause infrequent cancers with separate exposure.  Combine them and the 
rate of cancers becomes much higher.  They can't possibly test against 
all possible combinations of the tens of thousands of chemicals we 
potentially can be exposed to.  So a little caution can go a long way.

Cancer rates continue to climb.  It's not like you don't have any 
control over what you are exposed to.

-- 

Rick C

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#461939

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sergey Kubushyn wrote on 5/26/2017 3:16 PM:
>> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Spehro Pefhany wrote on 5/25/2017 10:43 PM:
>>>> On Thu, 25 May 2017 11:32:14 -0700 (PDT), the renowned George Herold
>>>> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well this is a good thread
>>>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=&hl=en#!searchin/sci.electronics.design/rosin$20flux%7Csort:relevance/sci.electronics.design/iYOz2oYarTY/xFZwiD-1izYJ
>>>>>
>>>>> (Sorry I'm not sure how to rip out the search function.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh and an updated link to Jeff L's White residue pdf
>>>>> http://www.kester.com/Portals/0/Documents/Knowledge%20Base/White_Residue.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway I've got a few hand built pcb's Kester 44 solder/ rosin flux.
>>>>> They are not high impedance and I just want them to look nice.
>>>>>
>>>>> I tried cleaning with IPA only... looked like crap.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I'm using IPA then detergent and hot water.
>>>>> Well the detergent is this "awesome cleaner"
>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/LAS-PURPOSE-CONCENTRATED-TOTALLY-AWESOME/dp/B0017KT3IM
>>>>>
>>>>> (as seen on TV :^)
>>>>>
>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>> George H.
>>>>
>>>> For prototypes I use Recochem lacquer thinner from Crappy Tire and a
>>>> toothbrush. The boards look great and are easy to inspect.
>>>>
>>>> Not all lacquer thinners are equal- this one is relatively low in
>>>> acetone, about 10%.
>>>>
>>>> https://web.chempliance.com/MSDS/OpenDoc.ashx?DocID=24450
>>>>
>>>> It's mostly toluene + methanol + xylene. It can take markings off of
>>>> some parts, but it is nowhere as bad as pure acetone.
>>>
>>> Seems like a bit of overkill.  Does ethyl alcohol not work for you?
>>> Toluene and xylene have been found to increase the risk of some
>>> leukemias.  I can't see a reason to use them at all if you can avoid it.
>>
>> Are you from Califonia? They must've been adding something to the water so
>> their entire population is zombified...
>>
>> If you look at most any solvent sold in home improvement stores all over the
>> country you would almost certainly find some note kinda "Not for sale in
>> California"...
>>
>> It is definitely harmful if you have to breethe it 5 days a week for full 8
>> hours but sniffing it occasionally from time to time is no more harmful than
>> going outside and taking a breath of "fresh air" filled with all kinds of
>> pollutants. Even pure hydrogen dioxide is lethal in proper doses...
> 
> Yes, that is the typical ignorant response to health effects of 
> substances.  You are free to breath what you wish.  As I mentioned, the 
> impact of individual substances are often not so great so as to warrant 
> banning outright.  There is a thing called augmentation.  Two substances 
> cause infrequent cancers with separate exposure.  Combine them and the 
> rate of cancers becomes much higher.  They can't possibly test against 
> all possible combinations of the tens of thousands of chemicals we 
> potentially can be exposed to.  So a little caution can go a long way.
> 
> Cancer rates continue to climb.  It's not like you don't have any 
> control over what you are exposed to.

Man, you should not be scared by _EVERYTHING_ . Gluten, xylene, parabens,
ketones, cholesterol, meat, whatever else they come out with today.

Just in case -- xylene is a component of infamous "Goo Gone" and "Goof Off"
adhesive removers that are sold in each and every store all over the country
(except, may be, California.) Pure Xylene is also on the shelves of every
home improvement store all over the country (except, may be, California.)
There are also plenty of other stuff with even more harmful and dangerous
components (e.g. Hydrofluoric Acid, Tetrahydrofuran, etc) around you. Lots
of such chemicals added to your everyday food and it doesn't matter if they
are syntetic or "organic." That is not even starting on what you inhale with
your every breath. IPA is not also all that healthy.

The only way to avoid all those is to just stop living.

BTW, Xylene is not considered as cancirogen and no long-term effects of
exposure to it are known. Toluene is more harmful that is why it is not sold
in Home Depot and others of its kind. Xylene (actually it is "Xylenes" or
Xylol as it is a mixture of o-, m-, and p- isomers) is freely available in
any of those stores.

Here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996004/

PS: Watching CNN is orders of magnitude more harmful for one's health :)

---
******************************************************************
*  KSI@home    KOI8 Net  < >  The impossible we do immediately.  *
*  Las Vegas   NV, USA   < >  Miracles require 24-hour notice.   *
******************************************************************

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#461956

Sergey Kubushyn wrote on 5/26/2017 10:08 PM:
> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sergey Kubushyn wrote on 5/26/2017 3:16 PM:
>>> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Spehro Pefhany wrote on 5/25/2017 10:43 PM:
>>>>> On Thu, 25 May 2017 11:32:14 -0700 (PDT), the renowned George Herold
>>>>> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well this is a good thread
>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=&hl=en#!searchin/sci.electronics.design/rosin$20flux%7Csort:relevance/sci.electronics.design/iYOz2oYarTY/xFZwiD-1izYJ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Sorry I'm not sure how to rip out the search function.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh and an updated link to Jeff L's White residue pdf
>>>>>> http://www.kester.com/Portals/0/Documents/Knowledge%20Base/White_Residue.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway I've got a few hand built pcb's Kester 44 solder/ rosin flux.
>>>>>> They are not high impedance and I just want them to look nice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tried cleaning with IPA only... looked like crap.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I'm using IPA then detergent and hot water.
>>>>>> Well the detergent is this "awesome cleaner"
>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/LAS-PURPOSE-CONCENTRATED-TOTALLY-AWESOME/dp/B0017KT3IM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (as seen on TV :^)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>> George H.
>>>>>
>>>>> For prototypes I use Recochem lacquer thinner from Crappy Tire and a
>>>>> toothbrush. The boards look great and are easy to inspect.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not all lacquer thinners are equal- this one is relatively low in
>>>>> acetone, about 10%.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://web.chempliance.com/MSDS/OpenDoc.ashx?DocID=24450
>>>>>
>>>>> It's mostly toluene + methanol + xylene. It can take markings off of
>>>>> some parts, but it is nowhere as bad as pure acetone.
>>>>
>>>> Seems like a bit of overkill.  Does ethyl alcohol not work for you?
>>>> Toluene and xylene have been found to increase the risk of some
>>>> leukemias.  I can't see a reason to use them at all if you can avoid it.
>>>
>>> Are you from Califonia? They must've been adding something to the water so
>>> their entire population is zombified...
>>>
>>> If you look at most any solvent sold in home improvement stores all over the
>>> country you would almost certainly find some note kinda "Not for sale in
>>> California"...
>>>
>>> It is definitely harmful if you have to breethe it 5 days a week for full 8
>>> hours but sniffing it occasionally from time to time is no more harmful than
>>> going outside and taking a breath of "fresh air" filled with all kinds of
>>> pollutants. Even pure hydrogen dioxide is lethal in proper doses...
>>
>> Yes, that is the typical ignorant response to health effects of
>> substances.  You are free to breath what you wish.  As I mentioned, the
>> impact of individual substances are often not so great so as to warrant
>> banning outright.  There is a thing called augmentation.  Two substances
>> cause infrequent cancers with separate exposure.  Combine them and the
>> rate of cancers becomes much higher.  They can't possibly test against
>> all possible combinations of the tens of thousands of chemicals we
>> potentially can be exposed to.  So a little caution can go a long way.
>>
>> Cancer rates continue to climb.  It's not like you don't have any
>> control over what you are exposed to.
>
> Man, you should not be scared by _EVERYTHING_ . Gluten, xylene, parabens,
> ketones, cholesterol, meat, whatever else they come out with today.
>
> Just in case -- xylene is a component of infamous "Goo Gone" and "Goof Off"
> adhesive removers that are sold in each and every store all over the country
> (except, may be, California.) Pure Xylene is also on the shelves of every
> home improvement store all over the country (except, may be, California.)
> There are also plenty of other stuff with even more harmful and dangerous
> components (e.g. Hydrofluoric Acid, Tetrahydrofuran, etc) around you. Lots
> of such chemicals added to your everyday food and it doesn't matter if they
> are syntetic or "organic." That is not even starting on what you inhale with
> your every breath. IPA is not also all that healthy.
>
> The only way to avoid all those is to just stop living.

Your arguments are irrelevant.


> BTW, Xylene is not considered as cancirogen and no long-term effects of
> exposure to it are known. Toluene is more harmful that is why it is not sold
> in Home Depot and others of its kind. Xylene (actually it is "Xylenes" or
> Xylol as it is a mixture of o-, m-, and p- isomers) is freely available in
> any of those stores.
>
> Here:
>
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996004/

The fact that it is not "considered" a carcinogen does not mean it 
doesn't cause cancer.  It only means it has not been demonstrated 
unequivocally.  I would point you to information about the 
carcinogenicity of these compounds, but it is clear that there is no 
point.

Enjoy the day.

-- 

Rick C

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#461958

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sergey Kubushyn wrote on 5/26/2017 10:08 PM:
>> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Sergey Kubushyn wrote on 5/26/2017 3:16 PM:
>>>> rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Spehro Pefhany wrote on 5/25/2017 10:43 PM:
>>>>>> On Thu, 25 May 2017 11:32:14 -0700 (PDT), the renowned George Herold
>>>>>> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well this is a good thread
>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=&hl=en#!searchin/sci.electronics.design/rosin$20flux%7Csort:relevance/sci.electronics.design/iYOz2oYarTY/xFZwiD-1izYJ
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Sorry I'm not sure how to rip out the search function.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh and an updated link to Jeff L's White residue pdf
>>>>>>> http://www.kester.com/Portals/0/Documents/Knowledge%20Base/White_Residue.pdf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway I've got a few hand built pcb's Kester 44 solder/ rosin flux.
>>>>>>> They are not high impedance and I just want them to look nice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I tried cleaning with IPA only... looked like crap.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I'm using IPA then detergent and hot water.
>>>>>>> Well the detergent is this "awesome cleaner"
>>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/LAS-PURPOSE-CONCENTRATED-TOTALLY-AWESOME/dp/B0017KT3IM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (as seen on TV :^)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>>> George H.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For prototypes I use Recochem lacquer thinner from Crappy Tire and a
>>>>>> toothbrush. The boards look great and are easy to inspect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not all lacquer thinners are equal- this one is relatively low in
>>>>>> acetone, about 10%.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://web.chempliance.com/MSDS/OpenDoc.ashx?DocID=24450
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's mostly toluene + methanol + xylene. It can take markings off of
>>>>>> some parts, but it is nowhere as bad as pure acetone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems like a bit of overkill.  Does ethyl alcohol not work for you?
>>>>> Toluene and xylene have been found to increase the risk of some
>>>>> leukemias.  I can't see a reason to use them at all if you can avoid it.
>>>>
>>>> Are you from Califonia? They must've been adding something to the water so
>>>> their entire population is zombified...
>>>>
>>>> If you look at most any solvent sold in home improvement stores all over the
>>>> country you would almost certainly find some note kinda "Not for sale in
>>>> California"...
>>>>
>>>> It is definitely harmful if you have to breethe it 5 days a week for full 8
>>>> hours but sniffing it occasionally from time to time is no more harmful than
>>>> going outside and taking a breath of "fresh air" filled with all kinds of
>>>> pollutants. Even pure hydrogen dioxide is lethal in proper doses...
>>>
>>> Yes, that is the typical ignorant response to health effects of
>>> substances.  You are free to breath what you wish.  As I mentioned, the
>>> impact of individual substances are often not so great so as to warrant
>>> banning outright.  There is a thing called augmentation.  Two substances
>>> cause infrequent cancers with separate exposure.  Combine them and the
>>> rate of cancers becomes much higher.  They can't possibly test against
>>> all possible combinations of the tens of thousands of chemicals we
>>> potentially can be exposed to.  So a little caution can go a long way.
>>>
>>> Cancer rates continue to climb.  It's not like you don't have any
>>> control over what you are exposed to.
>>
>> Man, you should not be scared by _EVERYTHING_ . Gluten, xylene, parabens,
>> ketones, cholesterol, meat, whatever else they come out with today.
>>
>> Just in case -- xylene is a component of infamous "Goo Gone" and "Goof Off"
>> adhesive removers that are sold in each and every store all over the country
>> (except, may be, California.) Pure Xylene is also on the shelves of every
>> home improvement store all over the country (except, may be, California.)
>> There are also plenty of other stuff with even more harmful and dangerous
>> components (e.g. Hydrofluoric Acid, Tetrahydrofuran, etc) around you. Lots
>> of such chemicals added to your everyday food and it doesn't matter if they
>> are syntetic or "organic." That is not even starting on what you inhale with
>> your every breath. IPA is not also all that healthy.
>>
>> The only way to avoid all those is to just stop living.
> 
> Your arguments are irrelevant.
> 
> 
>> BTW, Xylene is not considered as cancirogen and no long-term effects of
>> exposure to it are known. Toluene is more harmful that is why it is not sold
>> in Home Depot and others of its kind. Xylene (actually it is "Xylenes" or
>> Xylol as it is a mixture of o-, m-, and p- isomers) is freely available in
>> any of those stores.
>>
>> Here:
>>
>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996004/
> 
> The fact that it is not "considered" a carcinogen does not mean it 
> doesn't cause cancer.  It only means it has not been demonstrated 
> unequivocally.  I would point you to information about the 
> carcinogenicity of these compounds, but it is clear that there is no 
> point.
> 
> Enjoy the day.

OK, I rest my case. There is no point indeed.

---
******************************************************************
*  KSI@home    KOI8 Net  < >  The impossible we do immediately.  *
*  Las Vegas   NV, USA   < >  Miracles require 24-hour notice.   *
******************************************************************

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#461962

On a sunny day (Sat, 27 May 2017 01:06:37 -0400) it happened rickman
<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <ogb1ah$pui$1@dont-email.me>:


>> Here:
>>
>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996004/
>
>The fact that it is not "considered" a carcinogen does not mean it 
>doesn't cause cancer.  It only means it has not been demonstrated 
>unequivocally.  I would point you to information about the 
>carcinogenicity of these compounds, but it is clear that there is no 
>point.

Huh, recent research found that most people who died of cancer were exposed to bread in their lives.
A clear link between cancer and consuming bread in quantity has been demonstrated.
As of today .. no more bread.

Beware of abuse of statistics.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#461967

Jan Panteltje wrote on 5/27/2017 4:17 AM:
> On a sunny day (Sat, 27 May 2017 01:06:37 -0400) it happened rickman
> <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <ogb1ah$pui$1@dont-email.me>:
>
>
>>> Here:
>>>
>>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996004/
>>
>> The fact that it is not "considered" a carcinogen does not mean it
>> doesn't cause cancer.  It only means it has not been demonstrated
>> unequivocally.  I would point you to information about the
>> carcinogenicity of these compounds, but it is clear that there is no
>> point.
>
> Huh, recent research found that most people who died of cancer were exposed to bread in their lives.
> A clear link between cancer and consuming bread in quantity has been demonstrated.
> As of today .. no more bread.
>
> Beware of abuse of statistics.

Exactly which statistics do you feel have been abused?

-- 

Rick C

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#461969

On a sunny day (Sat, 27 May 2017 04:37:34 -0400) it happened rickman
<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <ogbdm1$omt$1@dont-email.me>:

>Jan Panteltje wrote on 5/27/2017 4:17 AM:
>> On a sunny day (Sat, 27 May 2017 01:06:37 -0400) it happened rickman
>> <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <ogb1ah$pui$1@dont-email.me>:
>>
>>
>>>> Here:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996004/
>>>
>>> The fact that it is not "considered" a carcinogen does not mean it
>>> doesn't cause cancer.  It only means it has not been demonstrated
>>> unequivocally.  I would point you to information about the
>>> carcinogenicity of these compounds, but it is clear that there is no
>>> point.
>>
>> Huh, recent research found that most people who died of cancer were exposed to bread in their lives.
>> A clear link between cancer and consuming bread in quantity has been demonstrated.
>> As of today .. no more bread.
>>
>> Beware of abuse of statistics.
>
>Exactly which statistics do you feel have been abused?

Most commonly babbled about is glowballworming.

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#461993

Jan Panteltje wrote on 5/27/2017 6:33 AM:
> On a sunny day (Sat, 27 May 2017 04:37:34 -0400) it happened rickman
> <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <ogbdm1$omt$1@dont-email.me>:
>
>> Jan Panteltje wrote on 5/27/2017 4:17 AM:
>>> On a sunny day (Sat, 27 May 2017 01:06:37 -0400) it happened rickman
>>> <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <ogb1ah$pui$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Here:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996004/
>>>>
>>>> The fact that it is not "considered" a carcinogen does not mean it
>>>> doesn't cause cancer.  It only means it has not been demonstrated
>>>> unequivocally.  I would point you to information about the
>>>> carcinogenicity of these compounds, but it is clear that there is no
>>>> point.
>>>
>>> Huh, recent research found that most people who died of cancer were exposed to bread in their lives.
>>> A clear link between cancer and consuming bread in quantity has been demonstrated.
>>> As of today .. no more bread.
>>>
>>> Beware of abuse of statistics.
>>
>> Exactly which statistics do you feel have been abused?
>
> Most commonly babbled about is glowballworming.

What does that have to do with the conversation?

-- 

Rick C

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