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Forever Power (almost)

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  Forever Power (almost) oldschool@tubes.com - 2017-05-16 04:11 -0400
    Re: Forever Power (almost) mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2017-05-16 02:24 -0700
      Re: Forever Power (almost) Aussie <aussie@none.com.au> - 2017-05-16 19:36 +0800
    Re: Forever Power (almost) Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 17:56 +1000
    Re: Forever Power (almost) John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-16 07:06 -0700
      Re: Forever Power (almost) tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 07:10 -0700
        Re: Forever Power (almost) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 10:14 -0400
      Re: Forever Power (almost) George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-16 08:48 -0700
        Re: Forever Power (almost) John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-16 09:01 -0700
          Re: Forever Power (almost) tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:10 -0700
      Re: Forever Power (almost) bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-20 07:40 -0400
    Re: Forever Power (almost) Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-16 10:03 -0500
    Re: Forever Power (almost) krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-16 12:34 -0400
    Re: Forever Power (almost) Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2017-05-16 13:28 -0500
      Re: Forever Power (almost) mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2017-05-16 15:15 -0700
    Re: Forever Power (almost) bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 14:24 -0700
    Re: Forever Power (almost) Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com> - 2017-05-17 09:25 +0800
    Re: Forever Power (almost) Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-05-18 20:38 +0000
    Re: Forever Power (almost) jurb6006@gmail.com - 2017-05-18 15:42 -0700
      Re: Forever Power (almost) Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> - 2017-05-19 23:02 -0500
        Re: Forever Power (almost) mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2017-05-19 22:05 -0700
        Re: Forever Power (almost) Neon John <no@never.com> - 2017-05-27 10:43 -0400
          Re: Forever Power (almost) tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 09:23 -0700
            Re: Forever Power (almost) krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-27 14:35 -0400
              Re: Forever Power (almost) tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 11:41 -0700
                Re: Forever Power (almost) krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-27 19:58 -0400
                  Re: Forever Power (almost) tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-27 17:36 -0700
            Re: Forever Power (almost) Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-27 12:15 -0700

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#460483 — Forever Power (almost)

This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
other than see how long it lasts.

I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts. 

So, lets say I connect a 200W inverter to a car battery. Then plug into
that inverter, a 12V 5A battery charger, and connect the leads from that
charger to the battery that is powering the inverter. 

So, it's an endless loop, the power being drained from the battery is
being recharged by itself thru an inverter and battery charger.

How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
not last forever, but just how long would it last????

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#460484

On 5/16/2017 1:11 AM, oldschool@tubes.com wrote:
> This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
> other than see how long it lasts.
>
> I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
> the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts.
>
> So, lets say I connect a 200W inverter to a car battery. Then plug into
> that inverter, a 12V 5A battery charger, and connect the leads from that
> charger to the battery that is powering the inverter.
>
> So, it's an endless loop, the power being drained from the battery is
> being recharged by itself thru an inverter and battery charger.
>
> How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
> due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
> not last forever, but just how long would it last????
>
Google
free energy
zero-point energy

You'll find a zillion discussions of this nature.
It's the sum of the losses in the system.
It's a complex calculation, but you can measure it easily.
Build it.
Disconnect both the inverter and the charger from the positive
battery terminal.  Insert an ammeter.  Measure the net amps flowing out
of the battery.
Calculate the hours from the amp-hour battery capacity and the
meter reading.
Sure, the amps will drop over time, but you'll get in the ballpark
with a simple calculation.

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#460486

On 16-May-17 5:24 PM, mike wrote:
> On 5/16/2017 1:11 AM, oldschool@tubes.com wrote:
>> This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
>> other than see how long it lasts.
>>
>> I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
>> the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts.
>>
>> So, lets say I connect a 200W inverter to a car battery. Then plug into
>> that inverter, a 12V 5A battery charger, and connect the leads from that
>> charger to the battery that is powering the inverter.
>>
>> So, it's an endless loop, the power being drained from the battery is
>> being recharged by itself thru an inverter and battery charger.
>>
>> How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
>> due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
>> not last forever, but just how long would it last????
>>
> Google
> free energy
> zero-point energy
> 
> You'll find a zillion discussions of this nature.
> It's the sum of the losses in the system.
> It's a complex calculation, but you can measure it easily.
> Build it.
> Disconnect both the inverter and the charger from the positive
> battery terminal.  Insert an ammeter.  Measure the net amps flowing out
> of the battery.
> Calculate the hours from the amp-hour battery capacity and the
> meter reading.
> Sure, the amps will drop over time, but you'll get in the ballpark
> with a simple calculation.


I wonder if the OP thinks the 200W inverter will put out 200W when the 
load is only 150W.

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#460485

On 16/05/17 18:11, oldschool@tubes.com wrote:
> This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
> other than see how long it lasts.
>
> I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
> the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts.

I wouldn't buy a charger that wastes twice as much power as it delivers.
It's very easy to do better than 30% efficiency, in fact, it's hard to
do that badly. The crappiest transformer-based charger will waste less
than 20 watts.

> So, lets say I connect a 200W inverter to a car battery. Then plug into
> that inverter, a 12V 5A battery charger, and connect the leads from that
> charger to the battery that is powering the inverter.

> So, it's an endless loop, the power being drained from the battery is
> being recharged by itself thru an inverter and battery charger.

> How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
> due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
> not last forever, but just how long would it last????

You said the charger wastes 100W. The inverter will waste some too,
say 40W (80% efficient). So you have a net 140W drain on the battery,
or 12amps. A mid-sized car battery is 60 amp-hours, so it'll last
less than five hours, turning all the stored power into waste heat.

Clifford Heath.

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#460500

On Tue, 16 May 2017 04:11:37 -0400, oldschool@tubes.com wrote:

>This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
>other than see how long it lasts.
>
>I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
>the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts. 
>
>So, lets say I connect a 200W inverter to a car battery. Then plug into
>that inverter, a 12V 5A battery charger, and connect the leads from that
>charger to the battery that is powering the inverter. 
>
>So, it's an endless loop, the power being drained from the battery is
>being recharged by itself thru an inverter and battery charger.
>
>How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
>due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
>not last forever, but just how long would it last????

I invented the motor-generator perpetual motion machine when I was 7
years old. An older guy explained why it wouldn't work; I think he was
9.


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics 

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#460502

On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 15:06:27 UTC+1, John Larkin  wrote:
> On Tue, 16 May 2017 04:11:37 -0400, oldschool@tubes.com wrote:

> >This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
> >other than see how long it lasts.
> >
> >I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
> >the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts. 
> >
> >So, lets say I connect a 200W inverter to a car battery. Then plug into
> >that inverter, a 12V 5A battery charger, and connect the leads from that
> >charger to the battery that is powering the inverter. 
> >
> >So, it's an endless loop, the power being drained from the battery is
> >being recharged by itself thru an inverter and battery charger.
> >
> >How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
> >due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
> >not last forever, but just how long would it last????
> 
> I invented the motor-generator perpetual motion machine when I was 7
> years old. An older guy explained why it wouldn't work; I think he was
> 9.

Heh. Even if it could be got to work you couldn't extract any energy or it would stop.


NT

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#460503

On 5/16/2017 10:10 AM, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 15:06:27 UTC+1, John Larkin  wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 May 2017 04:11:37 -0400, oldschool@tubes.com wrote:
>
>>> This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
>>> other than see how long it lasts.
>>>
>>> I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
>>> the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts.
>>>
>>> So, lets say I connect a 200W inverter to a car battery. Then plug into
>>> that inverter, a 12V 5A battery charger, and connect the leads from that
>>> charger to the battery that is powering the inverter.
>>>
>>> So, it's an endless loop, the power being drained from the battery is
>>> being recharged by itself thru an inverter and battery charger.
>>>
>>> How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
>>> due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
>>> not last forever, but just how long would it last????
>>
>> I invented the motor-generator perpetual motion machine when I was 7
>> years old. An older guy explained why it wouldn't work; I think he was
>> 9.
>
> Heh. Even if it could be got to work you couldn't extract any energy or it would stop.

Energy can be extracted as long as it is less than a quantum.  Then the 
net balance of the remainder doesn't change.  Take all the fractions of 
quantum you have and add them up and you will have a bunch of free energy!

-- 

Rick C

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#460516

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 10:06:27 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 16 May 2017 04:11:37 -0400, oldschool@tubes.com wrote:
> 
> >This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
> >other than see how long it lasts.
> >
> >I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
> >the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts. 
> >
> >So, lets say I connect a 200W inverter to a car battery. Then plug into
> >that inverter, a 12V 5A battery charger, and connect the leads from that
> >charger to the battery that is powering the inverter. 
> >
> >So, it's an endless loop, the power being drained from the battery is
> >being recharged by itself thru an inverter and battery charger.
> >
> >How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
> >due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
> >not last forever, but just how long would it last????
> 
> I invented the motor-generator perpetual motion machine when I was 7
> years old. An older guy explained why it wouldn't work; I think he was
> 9.
Grin, you had smart friends.  My son (16 yo) is still hoping that this 
conservation of energy theory will be shown wrong.  

George H. 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc
> 
> lunatic fringe electronics

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#460518

On Tue, 16 May 2017 08:48:52 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 10:06:27 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 May 2017 04:11:37 -0400, oldschool@tubes.com wrote:
>> 
>> >This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
>> >other than see how long it lasts.
>> >
>> >I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
>> >the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts. 
>> >
>> >So, lets say I connect a 200W inverter to a car battery. Then plug into
>> >that inverter, a 12V 5A battery charger, and connect the leads from that
>> >charger to the battery that is powering the inverter. 
>> >
>> >So, it's an endless loop, the power being drained from the battery is
>> >being recharged by itself thru an inverter and battery charger.
>> >
>> >How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
>> >due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
>> >not last forever, but just how long would it last????
>> 
>> I invented the motor-generator perpetual motion machine when I was 7
>> years old. An older guy explained why it wouldn't work; I think he was
>> 9.
>Grin, you had smart friends.  My son (16 yo) is still hoping that this 
>conservation of energy theory will be shown wrong.  
>
>George H. 

Another time, when I was a little older, I said that I wanted a pair
of binoculars with 1x mag, but that made things brighter, for use at
night. A slightly older guy immediately told me that would violate
thermodynamics and conservation of energy. 

Good thing I'm an engineer. I'd be a terrible physicist.


-- 

John Larkin         Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics 

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#460520

On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 17:01:53 UTC+1, John Larkin  wrote:
> On Tue, 16 May 2017 08:48:52 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
> <gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:
> 
> >On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 10:06:27 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

> >> I invented the motor-generator perpetual motion machine when I was 7
> >> years old. An older guy explained why it wouldn't work; I think he was
> >> 9.
> >Grin, you had smart friends.  My son (16 yo) is still hoping that this 
> >conservation of energy theory will be shown wrong.  
> >
> >George H. 
> 
> Another time, when I was a little older, I said that I wanted a pair
> of binoculars with 1x mag, but that made things brighter, for use at
> night. A slightly older guy immediately told me that would violate
> thermodynamics and conservation of energy. 
> 
> Good thing I'm an engineer. I'd be a terrible physicist.

All that needs is a larger aperture.


NT

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#461033

On 05/16/2017 10:06 AM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 16 May 2017 04:11:37 -0400, oldschool@tubes.com wrote:
> 
>> This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
>> other than see how long it lasts.
>>
>> I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
>> the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts.
>>
>> So, lets say I connect a 200W inverter to a car battery. Then plug into
>> that inverter, a 12V 5A battery charger, and connect the leads from that
>> charger to the battery that is powering the inverter.
>>
>> So, it's an endless loop, the power being drained from the battery is
>> being recharged by itself thru an inverter and battery charger.
>>
>> How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
>> due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
>> not last forever, but just how long would it last????
> 
> I invented the motor-generator perpetual motion machine when I was 7
> years old. An older guy explained why it wouldn't work; I think he was
> 9.
> 

I had a little "Science Fair" kit when I was about the same age in the 
1980s. Among other things it had some incandescent bulbs and solar 
panels. I wondered one day what would happen if you tried connecting up 
the light bulbs so that they shined on the panel and trying to use the 
output of the panel to power the light bulbs.

It seemed absurd on its face; I don't think I bothered trying.

There were more fun things to do like build roller-coasters:

<http://www.samstoybox.com/toys/UpDownCoaster.html>

And play what passed for video games (got this one at a yard sale for 
$10 around 1986!)

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRKuK5Zjb34>

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#460510

On Tue, 16 May 2017 04:11:37 -0400, oldschool wrote:

> This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
> other than see how long it lasts.
> 
> I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
> the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts.
> 
> So, lets say I connect a 200W inverter to a car battery. Then plug into
> that inverter, a 12V 5A battery charger, and connect the leads from that
> charger to the battery that is powering the inverter.
> 
> So, it's an endless loop, the power being drained from the battery is
> being recharged by itself thru an inverter and battery charger.
> 
> How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
> due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
> not last forever, but just how long would it last????

It's just a complicated way of turning useful energy into heat.  You may 
as well connect some car light bulbs to the battery -- that'll give you 
heat and light, which on a winter's night may be welcome.

"Plug the power strip into the power strip" perpetual motion machines 
don't work any better than any other ones.

-- 
www.wescottdesign.com

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#460529

On Tue, 16 May 2017 04:11:37 -0400, oldschool@tubes.com wrote:

>This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
>other than see how long it lasts.
>
>I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
>the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts. 
>
>So, lets say I connect a 200W inverter to a car battery. Then plug into
>that inverter, a 12V 5A battery charger, and connect the leads from that
>charger to the battery that is powering the inverter. 
>
>So, it's an endless loop, the power being drained from the battery is
>being recharged by itself thru an inverter and battery charger.
>
>How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
>due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
>not last forever, but just how long would it last????

After you've built that contraption, put really small wheels on the
front of your car so it's always rolling downhill.

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#460546

oldschool@tubes.com wrote:

> This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
> other than see how long it lasts.
> 
> I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
> the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts.
> 
OK, if the 150 W is correct, that is an efficiency of 40%  (12 * 5 / 150)
Not great.  Your inverter might have similar efficiency.  So, 150 W to run 
the charger, X 2.5 =375 W.  375 W draw from a 12 V system is 31 A,
So, you are drawing 31 A from the battery, and putting back 5 A.  So, the 
total draw is 26 A.  

> How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
> due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
> not last forever, but just how long would it last????
Umm, I guess you might get a bit more than 1 hour before the inverter shut 
off on low voltage, assuming a regular car battery.  Most likely it would be 
more like 20 minutes with typical batteries.

Jon

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#460590

On 5/16/2017 11:28 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> oldschool@tubes.com wrote:
>
>> This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
>> other than see how long it lasts.
>>
>> I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
>> the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts.
>>
> OK, if the 150 W is correct, that is an efficiency of 40%  (12 * 5 / 150)
> Not great.  Your inverter might have similar efficiency.  So, 150 W to run
> the charger, X 2.5 =375 W.  375 W draw from a 12 V system is 31 A,
> So, you are drawing 31 A from the battery, and putting back 5 A.  So, the
> total draw is 26 A.
>
>> How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
>> due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
>> not last forever, but just how long would it last????
> Umm, I guess you might get a bit more than 1 hour before the inverter shut
> off on low voltage, assuming a regular car battery.  Most likely it would be
> more like 20 minutes with typical batteries.
>
> Jon
>
This is a lot more fun in person.  If you tell 'em that it runs longer if
you just disconnect the charger from the battery, you can watch their
mood go from disbelief to denial to anger back to denial in a few seconds.

I once got involved with a couple of free-energy guys.
One was starting a business based on using his car's electrical system
to generate Brown's gas to stuff back into the carburetor.

He was undeterred when he forgot to turn the generator off one night
and got a surprise the next day when he started the car. I don't think
he ever found his valve covers.  He was lucky.  But that's another story.

His entire sales pitch was based on one seriously flawed test drive.
He was immune to logic, so I offered to build him a gadget to give
him continuous readout of his gas mileage to make a verifiable test.
He was initially excited, but when I had a prototype a week later,
he had vanished into thin air.  Suppose he really didn't want to know.

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#460585

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 5:13:58 AM UTC-4, olds...@tubes.com wrote:
> This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
> other than see how long it lasts.
> 
> I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
> the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts. 
> 
> So, lets say I connect a 200W inverter to a car battery. Then plug into
> that inverter, a 12V 5A battery charger, and connect the leads from that
> charger to the battery that is powering the inverter. 
> 
> So, it's an endless loop, the power being drained from the battery is
> being recharged by itself thru an inverter and battery charger.
> 
> How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
> due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
> not last forever, but just how long would it last????

Maybe not very long at all, it depends on the state of charge of the battery and the setpoint of the charger. If the battery has drained down to full charge from the charger, say 5 Amps, then if the inverter and charger are both 90% efficient making for 80% composite, the 5A charger output requires 5/0.8=6.25 A from the battery terminal. 5A of that is coming from the charger so the battery has to supply 1.25A difference. So your setup never really charges the battery, it just offloads some of the drain of the inverter + charger combo. The best way to offload the inverter + charger combo is to physically remove it altogether.

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#460618

On 16/5/17 4:11 pm, oldschool@tubes.com wrote:
> This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
> other than see how long it lasts.
> 
> I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
> the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts.
> 
> So, lets say I connect a 200W inverter to a car battery. Then plug into
> that inverter, a 12V 5A battery charger, and connect the leads from that
> charger to the battery that is powering the inverter.
> 
> So, it's an endless loop, the power being drained from the battery is
> being recharged by itself thru an inverter and battery charger.
> 
> How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
> due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
> not last forever, but just how long would it last????
> 

I reckon ya have to stop with the jokes, it's not your scene !!

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#460847

On 2017-05-16, oldschool@tubes.com <oldschool@tubes.com> wrote:
> This is just a stupid idea that I had, which will acomplish nothing,
> other than see how long it lasts.
>
> I dont know how much a standard 12V 5 amp battery charger requires from
> the 120Vac power line, but I read it was around 150 watts. 

the max output is about 68W*  the max input will be ballpark 80W

> So, lets say I connect a 200W inverter to a car battery. Then plug into
> that inverter, a 12V 5A battery charger, and connect the leads from that
> charger to the battery that is powering the inverter. 

the battrtry goes flat, the charger can't keep up with the drain imposed
by the inverter.

> So, it's an endless loop, the power being drained from the battery is
> being recharged by itself thru an inverter and battery charger.
>
> How long would this actually work? I know there is going to be some loss
> due to heat in the inverter and the charger too, so this really would
> not last forever, but just how long would it last????

maybe an hour to day before the battery goes flat, car batteries come
in different sizes and I'm not interested in doing the arithmentic 

it'll last much longer with the charger disconnected.


(*) assuming 13.6V charge termination


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#460864

Looks like you are looking towards the perpetual motion machine. Well it ain't happening. 

I do have it on good resources though that something similar is extant, and has been tested. It is a motor/generator combo that actually supposedly has greater than unity efficiency. Seemingly, but it is not. 

Through a complex scheme of magnetic shielding, bucking and aiding, someone figured out how to utilize the strength of super magnets. The unit runs for about seven years and you can drain power off if it. After the seven years it is almost useless. Rebuilding it would be a nightmare. 

And then there is the cost, it is over a million dollars for a unit that can power your house for seven years. Now take your electric bill and figure out what you pay in seven years and it is nowhere near a million dollars. 

The thing is not magic nor is it perpetual motion, it is draining off the supermagnets. Just like a dry cell which does not have to be charged and runs of the chemical energy, these units run off the energy stored in permanent magnets. 

Contrary to popular belief, permanent magnets are not necessarily permanent. They lose power when stressed. Well that device stresses them. A permanent magnet on a speaker is stressed, but alot less and has no problem lasting fifty years. Not so with this gizmo. 

But it is impractical and destined to remain that way. The process of making one is not easy. That is why they cost so much. And if anyone found a cheaper way they would be bought out forthwith. But from what I understand about how they work, it can only get so cheap. 

Would you pay a million dollars for seven years of electricity ? A factory would but the unit that would handle that load would cost a bunch more. We are back where we started. 

The people who developed did it right here in Cleveland, OH. I know two people who worked on the project. I'm told they had good reason not to patent it, because someone might come up with enough variations to usurp their rights after the design was made public, which is of course necessary for a patent. 

From what I heard a bunch of rich people bought them for the holocaust and that was it. Probably never started them, because once you do, the clock starts ticking. But if the whole civil structure breaks down they might come in handy. I mean, if you can't get electricity, natural gas, diesel or gasoline to run your generators, how do you keep the deepfreeze running ? As a billionaire I would want a few, but I am not a billionaire.

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#461014

jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

> Looks like you are looking towards the perpetual motion machine. Well it
> ain't happening.
> 
> I do have it on good resources though that something similar is extant,
> and has been tested. It is a motor/generator combo that actually
> supposedly has greater than unity efficiency. Seemingly, but it is not.
> 
Well, there actually is free energy out there, and some of it is actually 
harvestable.

If you live near the ocean, you can harvest wave or tidal energy.  You build 
gadgets with PVC pipe and big floats.  As the tide or waves raise and lower 
the floats, the up-down motion can pump water or air to shore.  Then, you 
can use an engine of sorts to generate energy from that.

There is hydrothermal energy if you live someplace like Florida or Hawaii.
You pump water from way down in the ocean, and use a Stirling engine to 
extract heat from the warm surface water and sink it to the cold water from 
below.

There was the Atmos clock that used high/low pressure weather systems to 
keep the spring wound.  Some poeple who have big caves have put air turbines 
in the entrance to the cave, and when the pressure changes it runs the 
turbine.

There was a radio and TV station on a mountain top in Colorado that was 
constantly having equipment damage.  They eventually put up a super 
"lightning rod" near their transmitting tower.  On a stormy day, I think 
they were getting several THOUSAND amps flowing through their ground system 
on the lightning tower.  That could be harvested, but all they wanted to do 
was prevent their gear from getting popped.

Some of these systems can be built pretty much by backyard mechaincs.

Jon

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