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Groups > sci.astro > #57945 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-04-03 12:52 -0400 |
| Last post | 2016-04-15 21:39 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 408 — 15 participants |
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Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-03 12:52 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-03 17:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-04 15:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-04 18:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-04 12:58 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jack Ryan <mixmaster@remailer.cpunk.us> - 2016-04-05 03:50 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 16:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-05 18:47 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 00:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-04-07 06:10 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 18:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-08 14:23 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 09:57 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 10:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Gothar the Undending, Dreaded by Darkness, Soul Eater and Destroyer of Stars" <Gothar@the.end.of.time> - 2016-04-14 23:59 +0100
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 12:53 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 19:38 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 00:27 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mandy Liefbowitz <mandyliefbowitz@the.port.side> - 2016-04-14 23:20 +0100
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 00:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-05 22:14 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:38 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Gothar the Undending, Dreaded by Darkness, Soul Eater and Destroyer of Stars" <Gothar@the.end.of.time> - 2016-04-15 01:03 +0100
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:58 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 00:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> - 2016-04-07 06:24 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Gothar the Undending, Dreaded by Darkness, Soul Eater and Destroyer of Stars" <Gothar@the.end.of.time> - 2016-04-15 00:25 +0100
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 19:53 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 03:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 23:06 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 19:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 13:04 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-07 21:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 00:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 17:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 21:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-09 13:55 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 10:08 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:19 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 22:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 04:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-17 12:53 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 12:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 14:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 08:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-10 16:40 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 15:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-11 19:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 20:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:04 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 22:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 21:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 05:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 00:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 13:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 21:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 02:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 21:03 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 13:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 15:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 04:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 22:02 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:04 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:21 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 22:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 01:33 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 20:44 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 05:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 23:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Gothar the Undending, Dreaded by Darkness, Soul Eater and Destroyer of Stars" <Gothar@the.end.of.time> - 2016-04-15 01:21 +0100
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:10 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:40 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:11 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 12:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 00:01 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Womack <twomack@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2016-04-09 09:21 +0100
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 15:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 10:45 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 19:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:41 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 12:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:28 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 23:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:52 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-09 10:09 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:31 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:42 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 15:55 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 14:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:36 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 19:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:19 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:47 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-09 18:17 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 00:37 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 16:50 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:41 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:08 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Mandy Liefbowitz <mandyliefbowitz@the.port.side> - 2016-04-14 22:56 +0100
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-05 17:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-05 18:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-05 15:09 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-05 18:54 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-04-05 19:57 -0600
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon "Robert Clark" <rgregoryclark@gmSPAMBLOACKail.com> - 2016-04-07 08:28 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-06 17:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 18:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon benj <none@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 15:43 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 20:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 16:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 23:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 19:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 03:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 22:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 06:17 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 12:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 00:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 21:59 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:18 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 07:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:45 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:42 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:12 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:36 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:24 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:08 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:08 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 12:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-06 22:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 17:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 04:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-06 23:31 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 19:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 01:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:18 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 22:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 22:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:19 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 20:57 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:44 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:14 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-12 21:09 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-04-08 20:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 23:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-07 16:20 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 20:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-07 14:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-07 22:43 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 01:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 18:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 13:19 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-08 23:12 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2016-04-08 05:49 -0400
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 06:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 08:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 18:54 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:10 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 21:03 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 06:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 06:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 16:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 16:16 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:16 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 07:40 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 18:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:27 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 17:27 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-04-07 21:40 -0500
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-09 15:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 19:02 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 13:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-09 21:14 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-09 20:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 17:37 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 06:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 08:11 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:51 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:51 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:53 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:31 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 18:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 03:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 21:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:01 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 13:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:53 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:28 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 01:47 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 20:23 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 04:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 22:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:43 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-10 17:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-10 17:56 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 17:44 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 01:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-10 20:46 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 05:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 01:43 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-11 16:48 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Rick Jones <rick.jones2@hpe.com> - 2016-04-11 18:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-11 19:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-12 15:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:13 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:06 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:09 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:45 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-13 15:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 09:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:57 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:15 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:47 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:05 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:25 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:30 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 02:09 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 21:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:33 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:46 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 02:38 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:57 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:25 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:21 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:55 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 20:49 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-17 05:23 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 23:58 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> - 2016-04-14 16:46 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:06 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:31 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:27 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 16:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:26 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 18:32 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 02:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 21:41 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 15:50 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 17:53 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 12:56 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:35 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:17 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:48 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:35 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:29 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:05 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:32 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:20 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:38 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-15 16:00 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 23:52 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 02:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 16:59 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 11:26 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-16 19:22 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:54 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-11 19:12 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 18:24 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 15:34 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-12 23:15 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-12 22:18 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 18:07 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 13:01 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-13 20:39 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-13 19:22 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 04:08 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 00:49 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 18:10 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 14:39 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-14 22:30 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 17:07 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 00:34 +0000
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> - 2016-04-14 19:21 -0700
Re: The European Space Agency just unveiled its plans to build a base on the moon jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-04-15 21:39 +0000
Page 15 of 21 — ← Prev page 1 … 13 14 [15] 16 17 … 21 Next page →
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-10 17:37 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7pnlgbtkadqhjqs228nls7epj61c2oeel4@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #58159 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>>>>> For your reference, records indicate that
>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I use economic thinking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Think about thinking more rationally. Think about thinking about
>>>>>> not finance and banking, but survival.
>>>>>
>>>>>And it will take a LOT of finance to get to and survive on Mars.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Musk thinks he can make it work at $500,000 per colonist and include a
>>>> free trip back to Earth for those who decide it's not their cup of
>>>> tea. There are a lot of people who can afford that. Hell, *I* can
>>>> afford that.
>>>
>>>So can I and the wife.
>>>
>>
>> Sure you can.
>
>Not a problem. I would have to forgo getting a new airplane, but you
>can't fly airplanes on Mars.
>
No individual would want their own airplane. No ROI, after all.
>>>However if I were to tell her we were going to to live on Mars, the
>>>best I could expect is a divorce as opposed to being shot.
>>>
>>
>> So she doesn't love you after all. I'm sorry for you.
>
>Nope, she just isn't insane.
>
Evidence is that she is, since she married you.
>>>>>>> It is well known that there is lots of gold in sea water but it costs
>>>>>>> far more to extract than the gold is worth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What the hell does that have to do with anything? First you bring up
>>>>>> Antartica and then say its irrelevant, and now you do the same with
>>>>>> gold. Nobody on a planet other than Earth is going to give a *shit*
>>>>>> about gold. Unless it relates to survival, everything you?re thinking
>>>>>> about is irrelevant.
>>>>>
>>>>>Pay attention; it was about the economics of going to other places, i.e.
>>>>>getting a return on investment, which was a big motivator for the
>>>>>colonizaton of the Americas.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Weren't you just raving about "freedom from religious persecution"? So
>>>> which is it?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Some of both, but mostly ROI for those that put the colonies together.
>>>
>>>Ever heard of the London Company, established 1606, with the purpose of
>>>establishing colonial settlements in North America?
>>>
>>
>> Sure, but that's not the sort of ROI what you've been raving about.
>> You've been raving about the COLONY ROI, not the organizers'
>
>Most colonies started as part of an organization to make profit.
>
That was certainly the motive of the folks transporting colonists, but
that's hardly the point OR the objection you've been raising.
>
>While the Spanish were mostly plundering the English were into furs,
>timber, and various crops.
>
>It wasn't until the profitablity of tobacco was realized the Spanish
>were much into real colonies.
>
Bullshit.
>
>>>>>>> >> There are no forests, no lakes, no rivers, no life and no air.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > You seem to have more knowledge than NASA on those things. How is that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When did NASA announce there are forests, lakes, rivers, life, and
>>>>>>> air anywhere else than Earth?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You again demonstrate a lack of logical thinking. You set out to prove
>>>>>> a negative; thats *your* burden, not mine.
>>>>>
>>>>>Nope, it is your delusiong there are forests, lakes, rivers, life, and air
>>>>>anywhere other than Earth.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <yawn>
>>>>
>>>>>> But, of course, it is entirely irrelevant. A moon/planet can be devoid
>>>>>> of those resources and yet still have many other ones to work with. It
>>>>>> just becomes a different problem to solve. Perhaps more complex, from
>>>>>> aet?s see if we can transplant Earthlings there? standpoint, but
>>>>>> there is nothing a priori that says it couldnt be done.
>>>>>
>>>>>Be done is not the same thing as ROI.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Religious persecution is not the same thing as ROI. Care to choose
>>>> one?
>>>
>>>Are you so single minded you can not see the existance of both?
>>>
>>
>> Are you so single minded that you don't know what ROI means even when
>> you rave about it?
>
>Are you so single minded that you don't know that human motivation
>comes in several forms?
>
You are the one wanking on about 'ROI', not I. In your insistence
that "no one would go", it is seemingly YOU who "don't know that human
motivation comes in several forms".
>>
>>>>>>> >> something usefull to build the domed and pressurized buildings
>>>>>>> >> required to survive and do anything.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > If thats how you think about what is *required* to survive, you clearly
>>>>>>> > havent thought much about the problem. These are *your* straw men.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So you think you can survive on the Moon or Mars without a presurized
>>>>>>> building? Are you going to live in a pressure suit 24/7?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe. The point is to solve the problems that *actually* exist, not
>>>>>> dream up straw men like the need? to builddomed cities.
>>>>>
>>>>>The need to build pressurized work and living areas does exist.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And is easy.
>>>
>>>And expensive and absolutely needed to survive more than 3 minutes, unlike
>>>anywhere in the Americas.
>>>
>>
>> So what? There's also no Starbuck's. Holy fuck, how will we ever
>> survive?
>
>Likely you couldn't survive without Starbuck's.
>
Wow, are you stupid!
>>>>>>> It is my opinion that an off Earth true colony would cost far too much
>>>>>>> for anyone to ever try it and few people would be willing to permanently
>>>>>>> move to one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?Ever? is a mighty long time. The only real question is *how much* would
>>>>>> it cost at any particular time, and how might those costs be reduced
>>>>>> until it *does* become something that some impossibly stupid billionaire
>>>>>> is willing to try it in order to stake a claim on an entire new world.
>>>>>
>>>>>And do what with it?
>>>>>
>>>>>Spain conquered a big part of the New World for the easily gotten wealth.
>>>>>
>>>>>There is nothing off the Earth valuable enough to turn a profit after
>>>>>acquistion and shipping costs.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your intellectual myopia is not 'proof'.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Name something then.
>>>
>>
>> Asked and answered.
>>
>
>Nope, always arm waved and avoided with phrases like it should be obvious.
>
>So state the obious.
>
Mars One is using the 'Kardashian Approach'. They're going to get
their money out with a reality show about the establishment and growth
of the colony. I couldn't tell you the motivation of the 200,000+
people who applied to go; probably various.
Elon Musk thinks he can turn a profit just on transportation costs. So
there's his ROI.
Despite your own exposition about how "human motivation comes in
several forms", you will now no doubt insist on an ROI FOR THE COLONY
ITSELF and not just for the organizers. I'd like to go on just a bit
about how conflicted your own views here are before I repeat the
answer I gave you before. In your head a colony must be "totally
self-sufficient". If it is, the colony doesn't need to produce an
external ROI; people just live their lives. If it isn't, you insist
it isn't a 'real colony'. When you're caught in cases of colonies
here on Earth that had no 'ROI' for the colonists going in, you come
out with how "human motivation comes in several forms".
You need to stop spinning around trying to bite yourself in the small
of the back (from the inside), Jim. You have a real definitional
problem and you constantly shift your ground however is convenient for
you to clench your little fists and shout "NO!".
Now you know whatever I say you're going to pick apart and raise
objections to, because raising obstructions is so much easier than
actually building something. And that's why I hold you in the low
regard I do. I realize your bloated ego keeps you from caring about
that, but I find it funny that I've spent decades designing and
building real things while you've done ... what?
Now, to answer the question again. Perhaps I can lead you to a
logical conclusion (but I doubt it). What is of value in near Earth
space? Right now it's weather prediction, telecom, and navigation.
The first is sort of a non-starter for Mars, but the other two work
just fine if any work is being done anyplace in the outer system. Fuel
depot (think the old 'coaling station' model).
If you want to build something big and grandiose, picture mining
asteroids for metals. It doesn't matter that big finds lower the
price. They don't lower it to zero. That mining is supported from
out on Mars (lower transit and transmission delays). Mining ships
could be manned, teleoperated, or any combination. When something is
found, you throw it back at the Moon. Don't need to slow it down too
much. Just let it hit. Then go mine it out from your lunar colony.
Fabricate it into various chunks of infractructure for use in space.
This is easier where there's gravity, the Moon is near Earth where you
mostly want the stuff, and the lunar gravity well isn't that deep.
Smelt the excess down and dump it to earth.
We will now see the Jimp the Chimp "instant colony" fallacy, wherein
he will complain about the cost of the FINAL STATE and fail to
recognize that everything builds incrementally and it goes where it
goes. Britain didn't send 330,000,000 people to the US, either...
--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-11 01:29 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <p8brtc-jnq.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #58171 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: >>>>>>> For your reference, records indicate that >>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I use economic thinking. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Think about thinking more rationally. Think about thinking about >>>>>>> not finance and banking, but survival. >>>>>> >>>>>>And it will take a LOT of finance to get to and survive on Mars. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Musk thinks he can make it work at $500,000 per colonist and include a >>>>> free trip back to Earth for those who decide it's not their cup of >>>>> tea. There are a lot of people who can afford that. Hell, *I* can >>>>> afford that. >>>> >>>>So can I and the wife. >>>> >>> >>> Sure you can. >> >>Not a problem. I would have to forgo getting a new airplane, but you >>can't fly airplanes on Mars. >> > > No individual would want their own airplane. No ROI, after all. Individual ownership of luxury items doesn't have anything to do with ROI, space cadet fool. >>>>However if I were to tell her we were going to to live on Mars, the >>>>best I could expect is a divorce as opposed to being shot. >>>> >>> >>> So she doesn't love you after all. I'm sorry for you. >> >>Nope, she just isn't insane. >> > > Evidence is that she is, since she married you. Fuck off and die, space cadet fool. >>>>>>>> It is well known that there is lots of gold in sea water but it costs >>>>>>>> far more to extract than the gold is worth. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What the hell does that have to do with anything? First you bring up >>>>>>> Antartica and then say its irrelevant, and now you do the same with >>>>>>> gold. Nobody on a planet other than Earth is going to give a *shit* >>>>>>> about gold. Unless it relates to survival, everything you?re thinking >>>>>>> about is irrelevant. >>>>>> >>>>>>Pay attention; it was about the economics of going to other places, i.e. >>>>>>getting a return on investment, which was a big motivator for the >>>>>>colonizaton of the Americas. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Weren't you just raving about "freedom from religious persecution"? So >>>>> which is it? >>>>> >>>> >>>>Some of both, but mostly ROI for those that put the colonies together. >>>> >>>>Ever heard of the London Company, established 1606, with the purpose of >>>>establishing colonial settlements in North America? >>>> >>> >>> Sure, but that's not the sort of ROI what you've been raving about. >>> You've been raving about the COLONY ROI, not the organizers' >> >>Most colonies started as part of an organization to make profit. >> > > That was certainly the motive of the folks transporting colonists, but > that's hardly the point OR the objection you've been raising. You mean the point that there is nothing on Mars that you can ship bact to Earth at a profit? >> >>While the Spanish were mostly plundering the English were into furs, >>timber, and various crops. >> >>It wasn't until the profitablity of tobacco was realized the Spanish >>were much into real colonies. >> > > Bullshit. Your denying it does not make it untrue. >>>>>>>> >> There are no forests, no lakes, no rivers, no life and no air. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > You seem to have more knowledge than NASA on those things. How is that? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When did NASA announce there are forests, lakes, rivers, life, and >>>>>>>> air anywhere else than Earth? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You again demonstrate a lack of logical thinking. You set out to prove >>>>>>> a negative; thats *your* burden, not mine. >>>>>> >>>>>>Nope, it is your delusiong there are forests, lakes, rivers, life, and air >>>>>>anywhere other than Earth. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <yawn> >>>>> >>>>>>> But, of course, it is entirely irrelevant. A moon/planet can be devoid >>>>>>> of those resources and yet still have many other ones to work with. It >>>>>>> just becomes a different problem to solve. Perhaps more complex, from >>>>>>> aet?s see if we can transplant Earthlings there? standpoint, but >>>>>>> there is nothing a priori that says it couldnt be done. >>>>>> >>>>>>Be done is not the same thing as ROI. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Religious persecution is not the same thing as ROI. Care to choose >>>>> one? >>>> >>>>Are you so single minded you can not see the existance of both? >>>> >>> >>> Are you so single minded that you don't know what ROI means even when >>> you rave about it? >> >>Are you so single minded that you don't know that human motivation >>comes in several forms? >> > > You are the one wanking on about 'ROI', not I. In your insistence > that "no one would go", it is seemingly YOU who "don't know that human > motivation comes in several forms". My but you are really confused now, aren't you? Can't handle multiple threads of thought, can you? Perhaps that is why you are a starry eyed space cadet over 10 years old. >>>>>>>> >> something usefull to build the domed and pressurized buildings >>>>>>>> >> required to survive and do anything. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > If thats how you think about what is *required* to survive, you clearly >>>>>>>> > havent thought much about the problem. These are *your* straw men. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So you think you can survive on the Moon or Mars without a presurized >>>>>>>> building? Are you going to live in a pressure suit 24/7? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe. The point is to solve the problems that *actually* exist, not >>>>>>> dream up straw men like the need? to builddomed cities. >>>>>> >>>>>>The need to build pressurized work and living areas does exist. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And is easy. >>>> >>>>And expensive and absolutely needed to survive more than 3 minutes, unlike >>>>anywhere in the Americas. >>>> >>> >>> So what? There's also no Starbuck's. Holy fuck, how will we ever >>> survive? >> >>Likely you couldn't survive without Starbuck's. >> > > Wow, are you stupid! Nope, realistic as you seem to know nothing about the subject of survival. >>>>>>>> It is my opinion that an off Earth true colony would cost far too much >>>>>>>> for anyone to ever try it and few people would be willing to permanently >>>>>>>> move to one. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?Ever? is a mighty long time. The only real question is *how much* would >>>>>>> it cost at any particular time, and how might those costs be reduced >>>>>>> until it *does* become something that some impossibly stupid billionaire >>>>>>> is willing to try it in order to stake a claim on an entire new world. >>>>>> >>>>>>And do what with it? >>>>>> >>>>>>Spain conquered a big part of the New World for the easily gotten wealth. >>>>>> >>>>>>There is nothing off the Earth valuable enough to turn a profit after >>>>>>acquistion and shipping costs. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Your intellectual myopia is not 'proof'. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Name something then. >>>> >>> >>> Asked and answered. >>> >> >>Nope, always arm waved and avoided with phrases like it should be obvious. >> >>So state the obious. >> > > Mars One is using the 'Kardashian Approach'. They're going to get > their money out with a reality show about the establishment and growth > of the colony. I couldn't tell you the motivation of the 200,000+ > people who applied to go; probably various. So one product would be a TV show. How long do you think it will take viewers to become bored of watching people in a tin can? I guess he could CGI in meteor storms and an alien attack. > Elon Musk thinks he can turn a profit just on transportation costs. So > there's his ROI. Ship them off and screw them; good busines plan. > Despite your own exposition about how "human motivation comes in > several forms", you will now no doubt insist on an ROI FOR THE COLONY > ITSELF and not just for the organizers. I'd like to go on just a bit > about how conflicted your own views here are before I repeat the > answer I gave you before. In your head a colony must be "totally > self-sufficient". If it is, the colony doesn't need to produce an > external ROI; people just live their lives. If it isn't, you insist > it isn't a 'real colony'. When you're caught in cases of colonies > here on Earth that had no 'ROI' for the colonists going in, you come > out with how "human motivation comes in several forms". If there is no ROI from the colony, there is nothing to pay for the constant resupply. > You need to stop spinning around trying to bite yourself in the small > of the back (from the inside), Jim. You have a real definitional > problem and you constantly shift your ground however is convenient for > you to clench your little fists and shout "NO!". > > Now you know whatever I say you're going to pick apart and raise > objections to, because raising obstructions is so much easier than > actually building something. And that's why I hold you in the low > regard I do. I realize your bloated ego keeps you from caring about > that, but I find it funny that I've spent decades designing and > building real things while you've done ... what? > > Now, to answer the question again. Perhaps I can lead you to a > logical conclusion (but I doubt it). What is of value in near Earth > space? Right now it's weather prediction, telecom, and navigation. > The first is sort of a non-starter for Mars, but the other two work > just fine if any work is being done anyplace in the outer system. Fuel > depot (think the old 'coaling station' model). > > If you want to build something big and grandiose, picture mining > asteroids for metals. It doesn't matter that big finds lower the > price. They don't lower it to zero. That mining is supported from > out on Mars (lower transit and transmission delays). Mining ships > could be manned, teleoperated, or any combination. When something is > found, you throw it back at the Moon. Don't need to slow it down too > much. Just let it hit. Then go mine it out from your lunar colony. > Fabricate it into various chunks of infractructure for use in space. > This is easier where there's gravity, the Moon is near Earth where you > mostly want the stuff, and the lunar gravity well isn't that deep. > Smelt the excess down and dump it to earth. Great plan except there is nothing is space of more value than the shipping costs back to Earth no matter how much you arm wave the issue. > We will now see the Jimp the Chimp "instant colony" fallacy, wherein > he will complain about the cost of the FINAL STATE and fail to > recognize that everything builds incrementally and it goes where it > goes. Britain didn't send 330,000,000 people to the US, either... Britain was the only colnizer. People can, and have for thousands of years, lived in the Americas without supply from the outside. People can not live on Mars without resupply from the outside, not even in a hundred of years. -- Jim Pennino
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-10 20:44 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <cc6mgbd8snf7grc6jlbqjf72m8oa9lvful@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #58177 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> For your reference, records indicate that
>>>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I use economic thinking.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Think about thinking more rationally. Think about thinking about
>>>>>>>> not finance and banking, but survival.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And it will take a LOT of finance to get to and survive on Mars.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Musk thinks he can make it work at $500,000 per colonist and include a
>>>>>> free trip back to Earth for those who decide it's not their cup of
>>>>>> tea. There are a lot of people who can afford that. Hell, *I* can
>>>>>> afford that.
>>>>>
>>>>>So can I and the wife.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure you can.
>>>
>>>Not a problem. I would have to forgo getting a new airplane, but you
>>>can't fly airplanes on Mars.
>>>
>>
>> No individual would want their own airplane. No ROI, after all.
>>
>
>Individual ownership of luxury items doesn't have anything to do with ROI,
>space cadet fool.
>
But that famous raconteur, chimpshit, insists that it's all about ROI.
>
>>>>>However if I were to tell her we were going to to live on Mars, the
>>>>>best I could expect is a divorce as opposed to being shot.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So she doesn't love you after all. I'm sorry for you.
>>>
>>>Nope, she just isn't insane.
>>>
>>
>> Evidence is that she is, since she married you.
>>
>
>Fuck off and die, space cadet fool.
>
Come make me, chimpshit drooler.
>>>>>>>>> It is well known that there is lots of gold in sea water but it costs
>>>>>>>>> far more to extract than the gold is worth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What the hell does that have to do with anything? First you bring up
>>>>>>>> Antartica and then say its irrelevant, and now you do the same with
>>>>>>>> gold. Nobody on a planet other than Earth is going to give a *shit*
>>>>>>>> about gold. Unless it relates to survival, everything you?re thinking
>>>>>>>> about is irrelevant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Pay attention; it was about the economics of going to other places, i.e.
>>>>>>>getting a return on investment, which was a big motivator for the
>>>>>>>colonizaton of the Americas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Weren't you just raving about "freedom from religious persecution"? So
>>>>>> which is it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Some of both, but mostly ROI for those that put the colonies together.
>>>>>
>>>>>Ever heard of the London Company, established 1606, with the purpose of
>>>>>establishing colonial settlements in North America?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure, but that's not the sort of ROI what you've been raving about.
>>>> You've been raving about the COLONY ROI, not the organizers'
>>>
>>>Most colonies started as part of an organization to make profit.
>>>
>>
>> That was certainly the motive of the folks transporting colonists, but
>> that's hardly the point OR the objection you've been raising.
>>
>
>You mean the point that there is nothing on Mars that you can ship bact
>to Earth at a profit?
>
Have you looked at the debt status of the colonies here on Earth?
Apparently there was nothing on Earth that you can ship from a colony
at a profit, either.
>>>
>>>While the Spanish were mostly plundering the English were into furs,
>>>timber, and various crops.
>>>
>>>It wasn't until the profitablity of tobacco was realized the Spanish
>>>were much into real colonies.
>>>
>>
>> Bullshit.
>>
>
>Your denying it does not make it untrue.
>
No, it being bullshit makes it untrue.
>>>>>>>>> >> There are no forests, no lakes, no rivers, no life and no air.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > You seem to have more knowledge than NASA on those things. How is that?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When did NASA announce there are forests, lakes, rivers, life, and
>>>>>>>>> air anywhere else than Earth?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You again demonstrate a lack of logical thinking. You set out to prove
>>>>>>>> a negative; thats *your* burden, not mine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Nope, it is your delusiong there are forests, lakes, rivers, life, and air
>>>>>>>anywhere other than Earth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <yawn>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But, of course, it is entirely irrelevant. A moon/planet can be devoid
>>>>>>>> of those resources and yet still have many other ones to work with. It
>>>>>>>> just becomes a different problem to solve. Perhaps more complex, from
>>>>>>>> aet?s see if we can transplant Earthlings there? standpoint, but
>>>>>>>> there is nothing a priori that says it couldnt be done.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Be done is not the same thing as ROI.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Religious persecution is not the same thing as ROI. Care to choose
>>>>>> one?
>>>>>
>>>>>Are you so single minded you can not see the existance of both?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Are you so single minded that you don't know what ROI means even when
>>>> you rave about it?
>>>
>>>Are you so single minded that you don't know that human motivation
>>>comes in several forms?
>>>
>>
>> You are the one wanking on about 'ROI', not I. In your insistence
>> that "no one would go", it is seemingly YOU who "don't know that human
>> motivation comes in several forms".
>>
>
>My but you are really confused now, aren't you?
>
Not particularly. You're a whirling asshole who acts like a two year
old. Pretty consistent, so no confusion at all.
>
>Can't handle multiple threads of thought, can you?
>
Can't handle a single thread of thought, can you?
>
>Perhaps that is why you are a starry eyed space cadet over 10 years old.
>
Perhaps that is why you are a drooling bit of chimpshit for as long as
I can remember.
>>>>>>>>> >> something usefull to build the domed and pressurized buildings
>>>>>>>>> >> required to survive and do anything.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > If thats how you think about what is *required* to survive, you clearly
>>>>>>>>> > havent thought much about the problem. These are *your* straw men.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So you think you can survive on the Moon or Mars without a presurized
>>>>>>>>> building? Are you going to live in a pressure suit 24/7?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe. The point is to solve the problems that *actually* exist, not
>>>>>>>> dream up straw men like the need? to builddomed cities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The need to build pressurized work and living areas does exist.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And is easy.
>>>>>
>>>>>And expensive and absolutely needed to survive more than 3 minutes, unlike
>>>>>anywhere in the Americas.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So what? There's also no Starbuck's. Holy fuck, how will we ever
>>>> survive?
>>>
>>>Likely you couldn't survive without Starbuck's.
>>>
>>
>> Wow, are you stupid!
>>
>
>Nope, realistic as you seem to know nothing about the subject of survival.
>
You? REALISTIC?? Put down the crack pipe, chimpshit.
>>>>>>>>> It is my opinion that an off Earth true colony would cost far too much
>>>>>>>>> for anyone to ever try it and few people would be willing to permanently
>>>>>>>>> move to one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?Ever? is a mighty long time. The only real question is *how much* would
>>>>>>>> it cost at any particular time, and how might those costs be reduced
>>>>>>>> until it *does* become something that some impossibly stupid billionaire
>>>>>>>> is willing to try it in order to stake a claim on an entire new world.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And do what with it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Spain conquered a big part of the New World for the easily gotten wealth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>There is nothing off the Earth valuable enough to turn a profit after
>>>>>>>acquistion and shipping costs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your intellectual myopia is not 'proof'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Name something then.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Asked and answered.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Nope, always arm waved and avoided with phrases like it should be obvious.
>>>
>>>So state the obious.
>>>
>>
>> Mars One is using the 'Kardashian Approach'. They're going to get
>> their money out with a reality show about the establishment and growth
>> of the colony. I couldn't tell you the motivation of the 200,000+
>> people who applied to go; probably various.
>
>So one product would be a TV show.
>
>How long do you think it will take viewers to become bored of watching
>people in a tin can?
>
How long have they watched make believe tribes on islands? How long
have they watched the Kardashians? How long have they watched all the
other shite?
>
>I guess he could CGI in meteor storms and an alien attack.
>
Only if he was as intellectually dishonest as you, which I consider
pretty unlikely.
>> Elon Musk thinks he can turn a profit just on transportation costs. So
>> there's his ROI.
>
>Ship them off and screw them; good busines plan.
>
Wrong. Wow, you don't have an honest bone anywhere in your body, do
you?
>> Despite your own exposition about how "human motivation comes in
>> several forms", you will now no doubt insist on an ROI FOR THE COLONY
>> ITSELF and not just for the organizers. I'd like to go on just a bit
>> about how conflicted your own views here are before I repeat the
>> answer I gave you before. In your head a colony must be "totally
>> self-sufficient". If it is, the colony doesn't need to produce an
>> external ROI; people just live their lives. If it isn't, you insist
>> it isn't a 'real colony'. When you're caught in cases of colonies
>> here on Earth that had no 'ROI' for the colonists going in, you come
>> out with how "human motivation comes in several forms".
>
>If there is no ROI from the colony, there is nothing to pay for the
>constant resupply.
>
I suggest you look up the debt status of most colonies down here. The
original 13 colonies were all massively in debt because they imported
so much.
>> You need to stop spinning around trying to bite yourself in the small
>> of the back (from the inside), Jim. You have a real definitional
>> problem and you constantly shift your ground however is convenient for
>> you to clench your little fists and shout "NO!".
>>
>> Now you know whatever I say you're going to pick apart and raise
>> objections to, because raising obstructions is so much easier than
>> actually building something. And that's why I hold you in the low
>> regard I do. I realize your bloated ego keeps you from caring about
>> that, but I find it funny that I've spent decades designing and
>> building real things while you've done ... what?
>>
>> Now, to answer the question again. Perhaps I can lead you to a
>> logical conclusion (but I doubt it). What is of value in near Earth
>> space? Right now it's weather prediction, telecom, and navigation.
>> The first is sort of a non-starter for Mars, but the other two work
>> just fine if any work is being done anyplace in the outer system. Fuel
>> depot (think the old 'coaling station' model).
>>
>> If you want to build something big and grandiose, picture mining
>> asteroids for metals. It doesn't matter that big finds lower the
>> price. They don't lower it to zero. That mining is supported from
>> out on Mars (lower transit and transmission delays). Mining ships
>> could be manned, teleoperated, or any combination. When something is
>> found, you throw it back at the Moon. Don't need to slow it down too
>> much. Just let it hit. Then go mine it out from your lunar colony.
>> Fabricate it into various chunks of infractructure for use in space.
>> This is easier where there's gravity, the Moon is near Earth where you
>> mostly want the stuff, and the lunar gravity well isn't that deep.
>> Smelt the excess down and dump it to earth.
>
>Great plan except there is nothing is space of more value than the
>shipping costs back to Earth no matter how much you arm wave the
>issue.
>
'Shipping costs back to Earth'? You think someone is charging for
gravity now?
>> We will now see the Jimp the Chimp "instant colony" fallacy, wherein
>> he will complain about the cost of the FINAL STATE and fail to
>> recognize that everything builds incrementally and it goes where it
>> goes. Britain didn't send 330,000,000 people to the US, either...
>
>Britain was the only colnizer.
>
So now you're done spewing shite about Spain, tobacco, and South
America?
>
>People can, and have for thousands of years, lived in the Americas
>without supply from the outside.
>
At bare survival levels, mostly.
>
>People can not live on Mars without resupply from the outside, not
>even in a hundred of years.
>
Of course they can. All you have to do is prime it.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-11 06:35 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <e7trtc-mgs.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #58183 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> For your reference, records indicate that >>>>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I use economic thinking. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Think about thinking more rationally. Think about thinking about >>>>>>>>> not finance and banking, but survival. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>And it will take a LOT of finance to get to and survive on Mars. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Musk thinks he can make it work at $500,000 per colonist and include a >>>>>>> free trip back to Earth for those who decide it's not their cup of >>>>>>> tea. There are a lot of people who can afford that. Hell, *I* can >>>>>>> afford that. >>>>>> >>>>>>So can I and the wife. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sure you can. >>>> >>>>Not a problem. I would have to forgo getting a new airplane, but you >>>>can't fly airplanes on Mars. >>>> >>> >>> No individual would want their own airplane. No ROI, after all. >>> >> >>Individual ownership of luxury items doesn't have anything to do with ROI, >>space cadet fool. >> > > But that famous raconteur, chimpshit, insists that it's all about ROI. No, blindered space cadet. Business is all about ROI, space cadet. This goes along with you being unable to understand some people came to the Americas just to get away from Europe and live their lives on a farm, some came for business reasons and some came to spread the word of God. And there were yet more reasons. >>>>>>However if I were to tell her we were going to to live on Mars, the >>>>>>best I could expect is a divorce as opposed to being shot. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So she doesn't love you after all. I'm sorry for you. >>>> >>>>Nope, she just isn't insane. >>>> >>> >>> Evidence is that she is, since she married you. >>> >> >>Fuck off and die, space cadet fool. >> > > Come make me, chimpshit drooler. Not worth the effort to cross the street and spit on, space cadet. > >>>>>>>>>> It is well known that there is lots of gold in sea water but it costs >>>>>>>>>> far more to extract than the gold is worth. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What the hell does that have to do with anything? First you bring up >>>>>>>>> Antartica and then say its irrelevant, and now you do the same with >>>>>>>>> gold. Nobody on a planet other than Earth is going to give a *shit* >>>>>>>>> about gold. Unless it relates to survival, everything you?re thinking >>>>>>>>> about is irrelevant. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Pay attention; it was about the economics of going to other places, i.e. >>>>>>>>getting a return on investment, which was a big motivator for the >>>>>>>>colonizaton of the Americas. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Weren't you just raving about "freedom from religious persecution"? So >>>>>>> which is it? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Some of both, but mostly ROI for those that put the colonies together. >>>>>> >>>>>>Ever heard of the London Company, established 1606, with the purpose of >>>>>>establishing colonial settlements in North America? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sure, but that's not the sort of ROI what you've been raving about. >>>>> You've been raving about the COLONY ROI, not the organizers' >>>> >>>>Most colonies started as part of an organization to make profit. >>>> >>> >>> That was certainly the motive of the folks transporting colonists, but >>> that's hardly the point OR the objection you've been raising. >>> >> >>You mean the point that there is nothing on Mars that you can ship bact >>to Earth at a profit? >> > > Have you looked at the debt status of the colonies here on Earth? > Apparently there was nothing on Earth that you can ship from a colony > at a profit, either. Funny that lots of fortunes were made off shipping stuff from the Americas, space cadet. >>>> >>>>While the Spanish were mostly plundering the English were into furs, >>>>timber, and various crops. >>>> >>>>It wasn't until the profitablity of tobacco was realized the Spanish >>>>were much into real colonies. >>>> >>> >>> Bullshit. >>> >> >>Your denying it does not make it untrue. >> > > No, it being bullshit makes it untrue. You real need to read some history for comprhension, space cadet. >>>>>>>>>> >> There are no forests, no lakes, no rivers, no life and no air. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > You seem to have more knowledge than NASA on those things. How is that? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> When did NASA announce there are forests, lakes, rivers, life, and >>>>>>>>>> air anywhere else than Earth? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You again demonstrate a lack of logical thinking. You set out to prove >>>>>>>>> a negative; thats *your* burden, not mine. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Nope, it is your delusiong there are forests, lakes, rivers, life, and air >>>>>>>>anywhere other than Earth. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <yawn> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But, of course, it is entirely irrelevant. A moon/planet can be devoid >>>>>>>>> of those resources and yet still have many other ones to work with. It >>>>>>>>> just becomes a different problem to solve. Perhaps more complex, from >>>>>>>>> aet?s see if we can transplant Earthlings there? standpoint, but >>>>>>>>> there is nothing a priori that says it couldnt be done. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Be done is not the same thing as ROI. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Religious persecution is not the same thing as ROI. Care to choose >>>>>>> one? >>>>>> >>>>>>Are you so single minded you can not see the existance of both? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Are you so single minded that you don't know what ROI means even when >>>>> you rave about it? >>>> >>>>Are you so single minded that you don't know that human motivation >>>>comes in several forms? >>>> >>> >>> You are the one wanking on about 'ROI', not I. In your insistence >>> that "no one would go", it is seemingly YOU who "don't know that human >>> motivation comes in several forms". >>> >> >>My but you are really confused now, aren't you? >> > > Not particularly. You're a whirling asshole who acts like a two year > old. Pretty consistent, so no confusion at all. Still in the blindered state not understanding ROI is a business term, space cadet? > >> >>Can't handle multiple threads of thought, can you? >> > > Can't handle a single thread of thought, can you? > >> >>Perhaps that is why you are a starry eyed space cadet over 10 years old. >> > > Perhaps that is why you are a drooling bit of chimpshit for as long as > I can remember. Fuck off and die, space cadet. >>>>>>>>>> >> something usefull to build the domed and pressurized buildings >>>>>>>>>> >> required to survive and do anything. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > If thats how you think about what is *required* to survive, you clearly >>>>>>>>>> > havent thought much about the problem. These are *your* straw men. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So you think you can survive on the Moon or Mars without a presurized >>>>>>>>>> building? Are you going to live in a pressure suit 24/7? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe. The point is to solve the problems that *actually* exist, not >>>>>>>>> dream up straw men like the need? to builddomed cities. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The need to build pressurized work and living areas does exist. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And is easy. >>>>>> >>>>>>And expensive and absolutely needed to survive more than 3 minutes, unlike >>>>>>anywhere in the Americas. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So what? There's also no Starbuck's. Holy fuck, how will we ever >>>>> survive? >>>> >>>>Likely you couldn't survive without Starbuck's. >>>> >>> >>> Wow, are you stupid! >>> >> >>Nope, realistic as you seem to know nothing about the subject of survival. >> > > You? REALISTIC?? Put down the crack pipe, chimpshit. Yep, ever taken a survival course of any kind, space cadet? Ever had any training on the logistics of keeping people alive in a remote location, space cadet? >>>>>>>>>> It is my opinion that an off Earth true colony would cost far too much >>>>>>>>>> for anyone to ever try it and few people would be willing to permanently >>>>>>>>>> move to one. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ?Ever? is a mighty long time. The only real question is *how much* would >>>>>>>>> it cost at any particular time, and how might those costs be reduced >>>>>>>>> until it *does* become something that some impossibly stupid billionaire >>>>>>>>> is willing to try it in order to stake a claim on an entire new world. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>And do what with it? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Spain conquered a big part of the New World for the easily gotten wealth. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>There is nothing off the Earth valuable enough to turn a profit after >>>>>>>>acquistion and shipping costs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your intellectual myopia is not 'proof'. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Name something then. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Asked and answered. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Nope, always arm waved and avoided with phrases like it should be obvious. >>>> >>>>So state the obious. >>>> >>> >>> Mars One is using the 'Kardashian Approach'. They're going to get >>> their money out with a reality show about the establishment and growth >>> of the colony. I couldn't tell you the motivation of the 200,000+ >>> people who applied to go; probably various. >> >>So one product would be a TV show. >> >>How long do you think it will take viewers to become bored of watching >>people in a tin can? >> > > How long have they watched make believe tribes on islands? How long > have they watched the Kardashians? How long have they watched all the > other shite? Typically a few years or so before being replace by a different one, space cadet. >>I guess he could CGI in meteor storms and an alien attack. >> > > Only if he was as intellectually dishonest as you, which I consider > pretty unlikely. He will need to be to keep a viewership, space cadet. Lots of people watched the 1st Moon landing. How many watched the third one, space cadet? > >>> Elon Musk thinks he can turn a profit just on transportation costs. So >>> there's his ROI. >> >>Ship them off and screw them; good busines plan. >> > > Wrong. Wow, you don't have an honest bone anywhere in your body, do > you? So where is the benefit to those shipped off, space cadet? Will they get residuals from the TV show? >>> Despite your own exposition about how "human motivation comes in >>> several forms", you will now no doubt insist on an ROI FOR THE COLONY >>> ITSELF and not just for the organizers. I'd like to go on just a bit >>> about how conflicted your own views here are before I repeat the >>> answer I gave you before. In your head a colony must be "totally >>> self-sufficient". If it is, the colony doesn't need to produce an >>> external ROI; people just live their lives. If it isn't, you insist >>> it isn't a 'real colony'. When you're caught in cases of colonies >>> here on Earth that had no 'ROI' for the colonists going in, you come >>> out with how "human motivation comes in several forms". >> >>If there is no ROI from the colony, there is nothing to pay for the >>constant resupply. >> > > I suggest you look up the debt status of most colonies down here. The > original 13 colonies were all massively in debt because they imported > so much. The revolutions took care of that, space cadet, and that was for the colonies that were established to be a business, which not all colonies were. >>> You need to stop spinning around trying to bite yourself in the small >>> of the back (from the inside), Jim. You have a real definitional >>> problem and you constantly shift your ground however is convenient for >>> you to clench your little fists and shout "NO!". >>> >>> Now you know whatever I say you're going to pick apart and raise >>> objections to, because raising obstructions is so much easier than >>> actually building something. And that's why I hold you in the low >>> regard I do. I realize your bloated ego keeps you from caring about >>> that, but I find it funny that I've spent decades designing and >>> building real things while you've done ... what? >>> >>> Now, to answer the question again. Perhaps I can lead you to a >>> logical conclusion (but I doubt it). What is of value in near Earth >>> space? Right now it's weather prediction, telecom, and navigation. >>> The first is sort of a non-starter for Mars, but the other two work >>> just fine if any work is being done anyplace in the outer system. Fuel >>> depot (think the old 'coaling station' model). >>> >>> If you want to build something big and grandiose, picture mining >>> asteroids for metals. It doesn't matter that big finds lower the >>> price. They don't lower it to zero. That mining is supported from >>> out on Mars (lower transit and transmission delays). Mining ships >>> could be manned, teleoperated, or any combination. When something is >>> found, you throw it back at the Moon. Don't need to slow it down too >>> much. Just let it hit. Then go mine it out from your lunar colony. >>> Fabricate it into various chunks of infractructure for use in space. >>> This is easier where there's gravity, the Moon is near Earth where you >>> mostly want the stuff, and the lunar gravity well isn't that deep. >>> Smelt the excess down and dump it to earth. >> >>Great plan except there is nothing is space of more value than the >>shipping costs back to Earth no matter how much you arm wave the >>issue. >> > > 'Shipping costs back to Earth'? You think someone is charging for > gravity now? I don't think you can just let go of something on Mars and have it fall back to Earth in one piece, space cadet. >>> We will now see the Jimp the Chimp "instant colony" fallacy, wherein >>> he will complain about the cost of the FINAL STATE and fail to >>> recognize that everything builds incrementally and it goes where it >>> goes. Britain didn't send 330,000,000 people to the US, either... >> >>Britain was the only colnizer. >> > > So now you're done spewing shite about Spain, tobacco, and South > America? Typo, should read: Britain wasn't the only colonizer. >> >>People can, and have for thousands of years, lived in the Americas >>without supply from the outside. >> > > At bare survival levels, mostly. Incas and Mayans? It took Spain huge armys and payed for local help to conquer them. There were millions of people in the Americas before the Europeans killed the vast majority of them with European diseases. >>People can not live on Mars without resupply from the outside, not >>even in a hundred of years. >> > > Of course they can. All you have to do is prime it. Prime it with what, enough ice comets to create oceans, space cadet? -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-11 08:11 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <iqdngbhvohpcrrgha9okd63simtin0nthm@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #58195 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In sci.physics Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> For your reference, records indicate that
>>>>>>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I use economic thinking.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Think about thinking more rationally. Think about thinking about
>>>>>>>>>> not finance and banking, but survival.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>And it will take a LOT of finance to get to and survive on Mars.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Musk thinks he can make it work at $500,000 per colonist and include a
>>>>>>>> free trip back to Earth for those who decide it's not their cup of
>>>>>>>> tea. There are a lot of people who can afford that. Hell, *I* can
>>>>>>>> afford that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So can I and the wife.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure you can.
>>>>>
>>>>>Not a problem. I would have to forgo getting a new airplane, but you
>>>>>can't fly airplanes on Mars.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No individual would want their own airplane. No ROI, after all.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Individual ownership of luxury items doesn't have anything to do with ROI,
>>>space cadet fool.
>>>
>>
>> But that famous raconteur, chimpshit, insists that it's all about ROI.
>
>No, blindered space cadet.
>
Yes, lying chimpshit.
>
>Business is all about ROI, space cadet.
>
So what?
>
>This goes along with you being unable to understand some people came
>to the Americas just to get away from Europe and live their lives on
>a farm, some came for business reasons and some came to spread the
>word of God. And there were yet more reasons.
>
So they didn't come for ROI at all, despite your earlier puling.
>
>>>>>>>However if I were to tell her we were going to to live on Mars, the
>>>>>>>best I could expect is a divorce as opposed to being shot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So she doesn't love you after all. I'm sorry for you.
>>>>>
>>>>>Nope, she just isn't insane.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Evidence is that she is, since she married you.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Fuck off and die, space cadet fool.
>>>
>>
>> Come make me, chimpshit drooler.
>
>Not worth the effort to cross the street and spit on, space cadet.
>
Coward, chimpshit. Like so many worthless internet piles, you're
brave as hell at the end of a wire...
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is well known that there is lots of gold in sea water but it costs
>>>>>>>>>>> far more to extract than the gold is worth.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What the hell does that have to do with anything? First you bring up
>>>>>>>>>> Antartica and then say its irrelevant, and now you do the same with
>>>>>>>>>> gold. Nobody on a planet other than Earth is going to give a *shit*
>>>>>>>>>> about gold. Unless it relates to survival, everything you?re thinking
>>>>>>>>>> about is irrelevant.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Pay attention; it was about the economics of going to other places, i.e.
>>>>>>>>>getting a return on investment, which was a big motivator for the
>>>>>>>>>colonizaton of the Americas.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Weren't you just raving about "freedom from religious persecution"? So
>>>>>>>> which is it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Some of both, but mostly ROI for those that put the colonies together.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Ever heard of the London Company, established 1606, with the purpose of
>>>>>>>establishing colonial settlements in North America?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, but that's not the sort of ROI what you've been raving about.
>>>>>> You've been raving about the COLONY ROI, not the organizers'
>>>>>
>>>>>Most colonies started as part of an organization to make profit.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That was certainly the motive of the folks transporting colonists, but
>>>> that's hardly the point OR the objection you've been raising.
>>>>
>>>
>>>You mean the point that there is nothing on Mars that you can ship bact
>>>to Earth at a profit?
>>>
>>
>> Have you looked at the debt status of the colonies here on Earth?
>> Apparently there was nothing on Earth that you can ship from a colony
>> at a profit, either.
>
>Funny that lots of fortunes were made off shipping stuff from the Americas,
>space cadet.
>
But mostly from shipping stuff back, chimpshit. So now colonization
is all about the SHIPPERS making money?
>>>>>
>>>>>While the Spanish were mostly plundering the English were into furs,
>>>>>timber, and various crops.
>>>>>
>>>>>It wasn't until the profitablity of tobacco was realized the Spanish
>>>>>were much into real colonies.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bullshit.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Your denying it does not make it untrue.
>>>
>>
>> No, it being bullshit makes it untrue.
>
>You real need to read some history for comprhension, space cadet.
>
You real need to read ANYTHING for comprhension, chimpshit.
>>>>>>>>>>> >> There are no forests, no lakes, no rivers, no life and no air.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > You seem to have more knowledge than NASA on those things. How is that?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When did NASA announce there are forests, lakes, rivers, life, and
>>>>>>>>>>> air anywhere else than Earth?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You again demonstrate a lack of logical thinking. You set out to prove
>>>>>>>>>> a negative; thats *your* burden, not mine.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Nope, it is your delusiong there are forests, lakes, rivers, life, and air
>>>>>>>>>anywhere other than Earth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <yawn>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But, of course, it is entirely irrelevant. A moon/planet can be devoid
>>>>>>>>>> of those resources and yet still have many other ones to work with. It
>>>>>>>>>> just becomes a different problem to solve. Perhaps more complex, from
>>>>>>>>>> aet?s see if we can transplant Earthlings there? standpoint, but
>>>>>>>>>> there is nothing a priori that says it couldnt be done.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Be done is not the same thing as ROI.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Religious persecution is not the same thing as ROI. Care to choose
>>>>>>>> one?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Are you so single minded you can not see the existance of both?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you so single minded that you don't know what ROI means even when
>>>>>> you rave about it?
>>>>>
>>>>>Are you so single minded that you don't know that human motivation
>>>>>comes in several forms?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are the one wanking on about 'ROI', not I. In your insistence
>>>> that "no one would go", it is seemingly YOU who "don't know that human
>>>> motivation comes in several forms".
>>>>
>>>
>>>My but you are really confused now, aren't you?
>>>
>>
>> Not particularly. You're a whirling asshole who acts like a two year
>> old. Pretty consistent, so no confusion at all.
>>
>
>Still in the blindered state not understanding ROI is a business term,
>space cadet?
>
Still in the blindered state of your head firmly up your ass, lying
chimpshit?
>
>>
>>>
>>>Can't handle multiple threads of thought, can you?
>>>
>>
>> Can't handle a single thread of thought, can you?
>>
>>>
>>>Perhaps that is why you are a starry eyed space cadet over 10 years old.
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps that is why you are a drooling bit of chimpshit for as long as
>> I can remember.
>
>Fuck off and die, space cadet.
>
Come make me, chimpshit.
>>>>>>>>>>> >> something usefull to build the domed and pressurized buildings
>>>>>>>>>>> >> required to survive and do anything.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > If thats how you think about what is *required* to survive, you clearly
>>>>>>>>>>> > havent thought much about the problem. These are *your* straw men.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So you think you can survive on the Moon or Mars without a presurized
>>>>>>>>>>> building? Are you going to live in a pressure suit 24/7?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe. The point is to solve the problems that *actually* exist, not
>>>>>>>>>> dream up straw men like the need? to builddomed cities.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The need to build pressurized work and living areas does exist.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And is easy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And expensive and absolutely needed to survive more than 3 minutes, unlike
>>>>>>>anywhere in the Americas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So what? There's also no Starbuck's. Holy fuck, how will we ever
>>>>>> survive?
>>>>>
>>>>>Likely you couldn't survive without Starbuck's.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wow, are you stupid!
>>>>
>>>
>>>Nope, realistic as you seem to know nothing about the subject of survival.
>>>
>>
>> You? REALISTIC?? Put down the crack pipe, chimpshit.
>
>Yep, ever taken a survival course of any kind, space cadet?
>
>Ever had any training on the logistics of keeping people alive in a
>remote location, space cadet?
>
Have you, chimpshit? I was more in the business of making people die
in remote locations.
>>>>>>>>>>> It is my opinion that an off Earth true colony would cost far too much
>>>>>>>>>>> for anyone to ever try it and few people would be willing to permanently
>>>>>>>>>>> move to one.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ?Ever? is a mighty long time. The only real question is *how much* would
>>>>>>>>>> it cost at any particular time, and how might those costs be reduced
>>>>>>>>>> until it *does* become something that some impossibly stupid billionaire
>>>>>>>>>> is willing to try it in order to stake a claim on an entire new world.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>And do what with it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Spain conquered a big part of the New World for the easily gotten wealth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>There is nothing off the Earth valuable enough to turn a profit after
>>>>>>>>>acquistion and shipping costs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your intellectual myopia is not 'proof'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Name something then.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Asked and answered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Nope, always arm waved and avoided with phrases like it should be obvious.
>>>>>
>>>>>So state the obious.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mars One is using the 'Kardashian Approach'. They're going to get
>>>> their money out with a reality show about the establishment and growth
>>>> of the colony. I couldn't tell you the motivation of the 200,000+
>>>> people who applied to go; probably various.
>>>
>>>So one product would be a TV show.
>>>
>>>How long do you think it will take viewers to become bored of watching
>>>people in a tin can?
>>>
>>
>> How long have they watched make believe tribes on islands? How long
>> have they watched the Kardashians? How long have they watched all the
>> other shite?
>>
>
>Typically a few years or so before being replace by a different one,
>space cadet.
>
It's really quite funny you saying that. Talk about pig ignorant...
>>>I guess he could CGI in meteor storms and an alien attack.
>>>
>>
>> Only if he was as intellectually dishonest as you, which I consider
>> pretty unlikely.
>>
>
>He will need to be to keep a viewership, space cadet.
>
Bullshit, chimpshit.
>
>Lots of people watched the 1st Moon landing. How many watched the
>third one, space cadet?
>
Irrelevant, since they weren't being run as a reality show, chimpshit.
>
>>
>>>> Elon Musk thinks he can turn a profit just on transportation costs. So
>>>> there's his ROI.
>>>
>>>Ship them off and screw them; good busines plan.
>>>
>>
>> Wrong. Wow, you don't have an honest bone anywhere in your body, do
>> you?
>>
>
>So where is the benefit to those shipped off, space cadet?
>
You'd have to ask the 200,000+ who volunteered, chimpshit. Reality
has rather neatly exploded your idiotic position that no one would
ever volunteer for such a trip.
>
>Will they get residuals from the TV show?
>
Ask them.
>>>> Despite your own exposition about how "human motivation comes in
>>>> several forms", you will now no doubt insist on an ROI FOR THE COLONY
>>>> ITSELF and not just for the organizers. I'd like to go on just a bit
>>>> about how conflicted your own views here are before I repeat the
>>>> answer I gave you before. In your head a colony must be "totally
>>>> self-sufficient". If it is, the colony doesn't need to produce an
>>>> external ROI; people just live their lives. If it isn't, you insist
>>>> it isn't a 'real colony'. When you're caught in cases of colonies
>>>> here on Earth that had no 'ROI' for the colonists going in, you come
>>>> out with how "human motivation comes in several forms".
>>>
>>>If there is no ROI from the colony, there is nothing to pay for the
>>>constant resupply.
>>>
>>
>> I suggest you look up the debt status of most colonies down here. The
>> original 13 colonies were all massively in debt because they imported
>> so much.
>>
>
>The revolutions took care of that, space cadet, and that was for the
>colonies that were established to be a business, which not all colonies
>were.
>
So your position is that colonies become 'profitable' by defaulting
and shooting at those they owe money to? Yeah, that sounds like
something you'd believe.
>>>> You need to stop spinning around trying to bite yourself in the small
>>>> of the back (from the inside), Jim. You have a real definitional
>>>> problem and you constantly shift your ground however is convenient for
>>>> you to clench your little fists and shout "NO!".
>>>>
>>>> Now you know whatever I say you're going to pick apart and raise
>>>> objections to, because raising obstructions is so much easier than
>>>> actually building something. And that's why I hold you in the low
>>>> regard I do. I realize your bloated ego keeps you from caring about
>>>> that, but I find it funny that I've spent decades designing and
>>>> building real things while you've done ... what?
>>>>
>>>> Now, to answer the question again. Perhaps I can lead you to a
>>>> logical conclusion (but I doubt it). What is of value in near Earth
>>>> space? Right now it's weather prediction, telecom, and navigation.
>>>> The first is sort of a non-starter for Mars, but the other two work
>>>> just fine if any work is being done anyplace in the outer system. Fuel
>>>> depot (think the old 'coaling station' model).
>>>>
>>>> If you want to build something big and grandiose, picture mining
>>>> asteroids for metals. It doesn't matter that big finds lower the
>>>> price. They don't lower it to zero. That mining is supported from
>>>> out on Mars (lower transit and transmission delays). Mining ships
>>>> could be manned, teleoperated, or any combination. When something is
>>>> found, you throw it back at the Moon. Don't need to slow it down too
>>>> much. Just let it hit. Then go mine it out from your lunar colony.
>>>> Fabricate it into various chunks of infractructure for use in space.
>>>> This is easier where there's gravity, the Moon is near Earth where you
>>>> mostly want the stuff, and the lunar gravity well isn't that deep.
>>>> Smelt the excess down and dump it to earth.
>>>
>>>Great plan except there is nothing is space of more value than the
>>>shipping costs back to Earth no matter how much you arm wave the
>>>issue.
>>>
>>
>> 'Shipping costs back to Earth'? You think someone is charging for
>> gravity now?
>>
>
>I don't think you can just let go of something on Mars and have it
>fall back to Earth in one piece, space cadet.
>
And you think a little shove with a solid rocket motor costs what,
chimpshit? Gravity does practically all the work. I'm sorry you're
stupid, chimpshit.
>>>> We will now see the Jimp the Chimp "instant colony" fallacy, wherein
>>>> he will complain about the cost of the FINAL STATE and fail to
>>>> recognize that everything builds incrementally and it goes where it
>>>> goes. Britain didn't send 330,000,000 people to the US, either...
>>>
>>>Britain was the only colnizer.
>>>
>>
>> So now you're done spewing shite about Spain, tobacco, and South
>> America?
>>
>
>Typo, should read: Britain wasn't the only colonizer.
>
If only it was possible to tell which of your remarks are typos and
which are merely your usual self-serving stupidity...
>>>
>>>People can, and have for thousands of years, lived in the Americas
>>>without supply from the outside.
>>>
>>
>> At bare survival levels, mostly.
>
>Incas and Mayans?
>
After how many thousand years to organize? But colonies must be
'instant' according to you, chimp. ROI and all that.
>
>It took Spain huge armys and payed for local help to conquer them.
>
No. Again your history is deficient. Cortez took down the Aztec
Empire with 630 people, including women, slaves, and ships' crews. No
"vast army" at all. In fact, when the histories are examined, NONE of
Cortez' expedition are referred to as 'soldiers'.
Pizaro conquered the Aztecs with an even smaller force; 163 soldiers.
Again, no "vast army" at all.
>
>There were millions of people in the Americas before the Europeans
>killed the vast majority of them with European diseases.
>
And almost all of them were living at a subsistence level and barely
surviving, even within the two empires you mention.
>>>People can not live on Mars without resupply from the outside, not
>>>even in a hundred of years.
>>>
>>
>> Of course they can. All you have to do is prime it.
>>
>
>Prime it with what, enough ice comets to create oceans, space cadet?
>
The same way Earth colonies were 'primed' with things like spinning
wheels, axes, and plows, dishonest chimpshit. You bring power and
supplies to get started and last a while. Then you build shit. Wow,
what a concept. Obviously much too obscure for a fine mind like yours
to figure out.
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-11 19:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <t39ttc-714.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #58200 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: <snip> >>This goes along with you being unable to understand some people came >>to the Americas just to get away from Europe and live their lives on >>a farm, some came for business reasons and some came to spread the >>word of God. And there were yet more reasons. >> > > So they didn't come for ROI at all, despite your earlier puling. What part of the word "some" and "yet more reasons" did you not understand, space cadet? <snip> >>Not worth the effort to cross the street and spit on, space cadet. >> > > Coward, chimpshit. Like so many worthless internet piles, you're > brave as hell at the end of a wire... Are you requesting a physical confrontation, space cadet? <snip> >>Funny that lots of fortunes were made off shipping stuff from the Americas, >>space cadet. >> > > But mostly from shipping stuff back, chimpshit. So now colonization > is all about the SHIPPERS making money? So where did the money come from to acquire and ship stuff back come from, space cadet? <snip> >>Fuck off and die, space cadet. >> > > Come make me, chimpshit. Are you rquesting a physical confrontation, space cadet? <snip> >>Yep, ever taken a survival course of any kind, space cadet? >> >>Ever had any training on the logistics of keeping people alive in a >>remote location, space cadet? >> > > Have you, chimpshit? Yes, space cadet. <snip> >>Lots of people watched the 1st Moon landing. How many watched the >>third one, space cadet? >> > > Irrelevant, since they weren't being run as a reality show, chimpshit. Nope, quite relevant, space cadet. Most people find the space program to be boring, space cadet. Reality shows depend on some sort of conflict or the peculiarities of "different" people to keep people interested. What would living in a pressurized tin can have to offer to keep people interested, space cadet? <snip> >>So where is the benefit to those shipped off, space cadet? >> > > You'd have to ask the 200,000+ who volunteered, chimpshit. Reality > has rather neatly exploded your idiotic position that no one would > ever volunteer for such a trip. > >> >>Will they get residuals from the TV show? >> > > Ask them. And here I thought you were supposed to know everything, space cadet. I would suppose that for a lot of the first batch it would be the adventure of it all, but that would all go away after the first baby was born. <snip> >>The revolutions took care of that, space cadet, and that was for the >>colonies that were established to be a business, which not all colonies >>were. >> > > So your position is that colonies become 'profitable' by defaulting > and shooting at those they owe money to? Yeah, that sounds like > something you'd believe. You are the one that brought up debt of the colonies as a entity, space cadet. <snip> >>I don't think you can just let go of something on Mars and have it >>fall back to Earth in one piece, space cadet. >> > > And you think a little shove with a solid rocket motor costs what, > chimpshit? Gravity does practically all the work. I'm sorry you're > stupid, chimpshit. Then getting to Mars in the first place must be pretty simple, space cadet. It is the same gravity potential both ways. <snip> >>Incas and Mayans? >> > > After how many thousand years to organize? But colonies must be > 'instant' according to you, chimp. ROI and all that. There go those voices in your head again, space cadet. What I said was it is possible to survive and thrive in the Americas without outside supply as shown by the millions of people that lived in the Americas before the Europeans showed up. <snip> >>It took Spain huge armys and payed for local help to conquer them. >> > > No. Again your history is deficient. Cortez took down the Aztec > Empire with 630 people, including women, slaves, and ships' crews. No > "vast army" at all. In fact, when the histories are examined, NONE of > Cortez' expedition are referred to as 'soldiers'. "The army with which Hernan Cortes besieged Tenochtitlan was composed of 200,000 soldiers.." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador <snip> >>There were millions of people in the Americas before the Europeans >>killed the vast majority of them with European diseases. >> > > And almost all of them were living at a subsistence level and barely > surviving, even within the two empires you mention. Oh bullshit. Even if that were true, it still does not mean that is is not possible to survive in the Americas without resupply from Europe, instead it proves that it is. And those were essentially Bronze Age civilizations and no one knows how they would have eventually developed if Europe didn't exist. <snip> >>Prime it with what, enough ice comets to create oceans, space cadet? >> > > The same way Earth colonies were 'primed' with things like spinning > wheels, axes, and plows, dishonest chimpshit. You bring power and > supplies to get started and last a while. Then you build shit. Wow, > what a concept. Obviously much too obscure for a fine mind like yours > to figure out. Nope, it takes a global supply and transportation system to support 21st century technology all of which has to be payed for by somebody, space cadet. That is quite a bit more than just "build shit", space cadet. -- Jim Pennino
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-11 19:51 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <b9nogbhicenfhbs4om1bdklp0q037fpi35@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #58211 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>>This goes along with you being unable to understand some people came
>>>to the Americas just to get away from Europe and live their lives on
>>>a farm, some came for business reasons and some came to spread the
>>>word of God. And there were yet more reasons.
>>>
>>
>> So they didn't come for ROI at all, despite your earlier puling.
>
>What part of the word "some" and "yet more reasons" did you not understand,
>space cadet?
>
So stop puling about ROI, chimpshit.
>
><snip>
>
>>>Not worth the effort to cross the street and spit on, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Coward, chimpshit. Like so many worthless internet piles, you're
>> brave as hell at the end of a wire...
>
>Are you requesting a physical confrontation, space cadet?
>
You keep wanting me dead, chimpshit. Given your threats, I have good
reason to fear for my life and safety.
><snip>
>
>>>Funny that lots of fortunes were made off shipping stuff from the Americas,
>>>space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> But mostly from shipping stuff back, chimpshit. So now colonization
>> is all about the SHIPPERS making money?
>>
>
>So where did the money come from to acquire and ship stuff back come
>from, space cadet?
>
So why were the colonies all always in massive debt, chimpshit?
><snip>
>
>>>Fuck off and die, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Come make me, chimpshit.
>
>Are you rquesting a physical confrontation, space cadet?
>
You keep wishing me dead, chimpshit.
><snip>
>
>>>Yep, ever taken a survival course of any kind, space cadet?
>>>
>>>Ever had any training on the logistics of keeping people alive in a
>>>remote location, space cadet?
>>>
>>
>> Have you, chimpshit?
>
>Yes, space cadet.
>
When and where, chimpshit?
><snip>
>
>>>Lots of people watched the 1st Moon landing. How many watched the
>>>third one, space cadet?
>>>
>>
>> Irrelevant, since they weren't being run as a reality show, chimpshit.
>>
>
>Nope, quite relevant, space cadet.
>
Not relevant at all, chimpshit.
>
>Most people find the space program to be boring, space cadet.
>
That's the difference between a documentary and a reality show,
chimpshit.
>
>Reality shows depend on some sort of conflict or the peculiarities of
>"different" people to keep people interested.
>
Yeah. So what?
>
>What would living in a pressurized tin can have to offer to keep people
>interested, space cadet?
>
What makes you think your fantasies apply, chimpshit? And even if
they do, ever heard of a reality show called Big Brother? It all
takes place inside an isolated house.
>
><snip>
>
>>>So where is the benefit to those shipped off, space cadet?
>>>
>>
>> You'd have to ask the 200,000+ who volunteered, chimpshit. Reality
>> has rather neatly exploded your idiotic position that no one would
>> ever volunteer for such a trip.
>>
>>>
>>>Will they get residuals from the TV show?
>>>
>>
>> Ask them.
>
>And here I thought you were supposed to know everything, space cadet.
>
Knowing more than you is hardly knowing 'everything', chimpshit. In
fact, knowing more than you is just a pretty low bar...
>
>I would suppose that for a lot of the first batch it would be the
>adventure of it all, but that would all go away after the first baby
>was born.
>
I would suggest that no one should accept what you would 'suggest'.
>
><snip>
>
>>>The revolutions took care of that, space cadet, and that was for the
>>>colonies that were established to be a business, which not all colonies
>>>were.
>>>
>>
>> So your position is that colonies become 'profitable' by defaulting
>> and shooting at those they owe money to? Yeah, that sounds like
>> something you'd believe.
>
>You are the one that brought up debt of the colonies as a entity,
>space cadet.
>
Non sequitur, chimpshit.
><snip>
>
>>>I don't think you can just let go of something on Mars and have it
>>>fall back to Earth in one piece, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> And you think a little shove with a solid rocket motor costs what,
>> chimpshit? Gravity does practically all the work. I'm sorry you're
>> stupid, chimpshit.
>
>Then getting to Mars in the first place must be pretty simple, space
>cadet. It is the same gravity potential both ways.
>
Wow! Just 'wow'! Slide down a water slide, chimpshit. Now slide up
one. It ought to be easy, what with it being the same gravity
potential both ways...
><snip>
>
>>>Incas and Mayans?
>>>
>>
>> After how many thousand years to organize? But colonies must be
>> 'instant' according to you, chimp. ROI and all that.
>
>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet.
>
Only because you keep puling, chimpshit.
>
>What I said was it is possible to survive and thrive in the Americas
>without outside supply as shown by the millions of people that lived
>in the Americas before the Europeans showed up.
>
And what was shown by the millions who died and all those who didn't
survive. Learn something on the original population of the Americas,
chimpshit.
><snip>
>
>>>It took Spain huge armys and payed for local help to conquer them.
>>>
>>
>> No. Again your history is deficient. Cortez took down the Aztec
>> Empire with 630 people, including women, slaves, and ships' crews. No
>> "vast army" at all. In fact, when the histories are examined, NONE of
>> Cortez' expedition are referred to as 'soldiers'.
>
>"The army with which Hernan Cortes besieged Tenochtitlan was composed of
>200,000 soldiers.."
>
Finish the quote, you dishonest shit. "... of which fewer than 1%
were Spaniards." No "vast Spanish army" at all. Pit the locals
against each other was the name of the game.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador
>
><snip>
>
>>>There were millions of people in the Americas before the Europeans
>>>killed the vast majority of them with European diseases.
>>>
>>
>> And almost all of them were living at a subsistence level and barely
>> surviving, even within the two empires you mention.
>
>Oh bullshit.
>
More like chimpshit.
>
>Even if that were true, it still does not mean that is is not possible
>to survive in the Americas without resupply from Europe, instead it
>proves that it is.
>
>And those were essentially Bronze Age civilizations and no one knows
>how they would have eventually developed if Europe didn't exist.
>
We know how they would have developed. They hadn't advanced in
centuries. Most 'civilizations' in the Americas were stone age, with
a little bit of copper age in South America and perhaps a handful of
bronze age.
><snip>
>
>>>Prime it with what, enough ice comets to create oceans, space cadet?
>>>
>>
>> The same way Earth colonies were 'primed' with things like spinning
>> wheels, axes, and plows, dishonest chimpshit. You bring power and
>> supplies to get started and last a while. Then you build shit. Wow,
>> what a concept. Obviously much too obscure for a fine mind like yours
>> to figure out.
>
>Nope, it takes a global supply and transportation system to support
>21st century technology all of which has to be payed for by somebody,
>space cadet.
>
Now you're talking way, WAY belying 'survival', chimpshit. Make up
your mind. Now a colony has to instantly have and maintain the
standard of living of Connecticut?
>
>That is quite a bit more than just "build shit", space cadet.
>
Keep shifting ground, chimpshit. It just makes you look desperate.
Your line was 'survive'. Now it's "live in rich suburbia". Wriggle,
wriggle, little chimpshit...
--
"Rule Number One for Slayers - Don't die."
-- Buffy, the Vampire Slayer
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-12 18:08 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <i6qvtc-3gf.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #58220 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >> >><snip> >> >>>>This goes along with you being unable to understand some people came >>>>to the Americas just to get away from Europe and live their lives on >>>>a farm, some came for business reasons and some came to spread the >>>>word of God. And there were yet more reasons. >>>> >>> >>> So they didn't come for ROI at all, despite your earlier puling. >> >>What part of the word "some" and "yet more reasons" did you not understand, >>space cadet? >> > > So stop puling about ROI, chimpshit. Does the term ROI offend you some how? > >> >><snip> >> >>>>Not worth the effort to cross the street and spit on, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Coward, chimpshit. Like so many worthless internet piles, you're >>> brave as hell at the end of a wire... >> >>Are you requesting a physical confrontation, space cadet? >> > > You keep wanting me dead, chimpshit. Given your threats, I have good > reason to fear for my life and safety. You have no idea what I wish unless you are now claiming to be a mind reader. > >><snip> >> >>>>Funny that lots of fortunes were made off shipping stuff from the Americas, >>>>space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> But mostly from shipping stuff back, chimpshit. So now colonization >>> is all about the SHIPPERS making money? >>> >> >>So where did the money come from to acquire and ship stuff back come >>from, space cadet? >> > > So why were the colonies all always in massive debt, chimpshit? You evaded the question again. > >><snip> >> >>>>Fuck off and die, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Come make me, chimpshit. >> >>Are you rquesting a physical confrontation, space cadet? >> > > You keep wishing me dead, chimpshit. You have no idea what I wish unless you are now claiming to be a mind reader. > >><snip> >> >>>>Yep, ever taken a survival course of any kind, space cadet? >>>> >>>>Ever had any training on the logistics of keeping people alive in a >>>>remote location, space cadet? >>>> >>> >>> Have you, chimpshit? >> >>Yes, space cadet. >> > > When and where, chimpshit? Survival, escape, and evasion courses. Your turn. > >><snip> >> >>>>Lots of people watched the 1st Moon landing. How many watched the >>>>third one, space cadet? >>>> >>> >>> Irrelevant, since they weren't being run as a reality show, chimpshit. >>> >> >>Nope, quite relevant, space cadet. >> > > Not relevant at all, chimpshit. > >> >>Most people find the space program to be boring, space cadet. >> > > That's the difference between a documentary and a reality show, > chimpshit. > >> >>Reality shows depend on some sort of conflict or the peculiarities of >>"different" people to keep people interested. >> > > Yeah. So what? > >> >>What would living in a pressurized tin can have to offer to keep people >>interested, space cadet? >> > > What makes you think your fantasies apply, chimpshit? And even if > they do, ever heard of a reality show called Big Brother? It all > takes place inside an isolated house. Which is a game show with a prize winner and constant conflicts. > >> >><snip> >> >>>>So where is the benefit to those shipped off, space cadet? >>>> >>> >>> You'd have to ask the 200,000+ who volunteered, chimpshit. Reality >>> has rather neatly exploded your idiotic position that no one would >>> ever volunteer for such a trip. >>> >>>> >>>>Will they get residuals from the TV show? >>>> >>> >>> Ask them. >> >>And here I thought you were supposed to know everything, space cadet. >> > > Knowing more than you is hardly knowing 'everything', chimpshit. In > fact, knowing more than you is just a pretty low bar... You evaded the question again. >> >>I would suppose that for a lot of the first batch it would be the >>adventure of it all, but that would all go away after the first baby >>was born. >> > > I would suggest that no one should accept what you would 'suggest'. You evaded the question again. > >> >><snip> >> >>>>The revolutions took care of that, space cadet, and that was for the >>>>colonies that were established to be a business, which not all colonies >>>>were. >>>> >>> >>> So your position is that colonies become 'profitable' by defaulting >>> and shooting at those they owe money to? Yeah, that sounds like >>> something you'd believe. >> >>You are the one that brought up debt of the colonies as a entity, >>space cadet. >> > > Non sequitur, chimpshit. Most of what you post is a non sequitur to evade questions. > >><snip> >> >>>>I don't think you can just let go of something on Mars and have it >>>>fall back to Earth in one piece, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> And you think a little shove with a solid rocket motor costs what, >>> chimpshit? Gravity does practically all the work. I'm sorry you're >>> stupid, chimpshit. >> >>Then getting to Mars in the first place must be pretty simple, space >>cadet. It is the same gravity potential both ways. >> > > Wow! Just 'wow'! Slide down a water slide, chimpshit. Now slide up > one. It ought to be easy, what with it being the same gravity > potential both ways... That has to be the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. > >><snip> >> >>>>Incas and Mayans? >>>> >>> >>> After how many thousand years to organize? But colonies must be >>> 'instant' according to you, chimp. ROI and all that. >> >>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet. >> > > Only because you keep puling, chimpshit. Because you read what you want to see, not what is wrtiten. > >> >>What I said was it is possible to survive and thrive in the Americas >>without outside supply as shown by the millions of people that lived >>in the Americas before the Europeans showed up. >> > > And what was shown by the millions who died and all those who didn't > survive. Learn something on the original population of the Americas, > chimpshit. There were somewhere between 50 million and 100 million people in the Americas before Europeans showed up, so survival couldn't have been to terribly difficult. > >><snip> >> >>>>It took Spain huge armys and payed for local help to conquer them. >>>> >>> >>> No. Again your history is deficient. Cortez took down the Aztec >>> Empire with 630 people, including women, slaves, and ships' crews. No >>> "vast army" at all. In fact, when the histories are examined, NONE of >>> Cortez' expedition are referred to as 'soldiers'. >> >>"The army with which Hernan Cortes besieged Tenochtitlan was composed of >>200,000 soldiers.." >> > > Finish the quote, you dishonest shit. "... of which fewer than 1% > were Spaniards." No "vast Spanish army" at all. Pit the locals > against each other was the name of the game. What part of "payed for local help" did you not understand? >> >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador >> >><snip> >> >>>>There were millions of people in the Americas before the Europeans >>>>killed the vast majority of them with European diseases. >>>> >>> >>> And almost all of them were living at a subsistence level and barely >>> surviving, even within the two empires you mention. >> >>Oh bullshit. >> > > More like chimpshit. > >> >>Even if that were true, it still does not mean that is is not possible >>to survive in the Americas without resupply from Europe, instead it >>proves that it is. >> >>And those were essentially Bronze Age civilizations and no one knows >>how they would have eventually developed if Europe didn't exist. >> > > We know how they would have developed. They hadn't advanced in > centuries. Most 'civilizations' in the Americas were stone age, with > a little bit of copper age in South America and perhaps a handful of > bronze age. And it took centuries for Europeans to advance. Europe had the technology motivator of war between neighboring empires, like England, France, Italy, Germany, etc. The Aztecs, Incas, and Mayans were too far apart to fight each other. > >><snip> >> >>>>Prime it with what, enough ice comets to create oceans, space cadet? >>>> >>> >>> The same way Earth colonies were 'primed' with things like spinning >>> wheels, axes, and plows, dishonest chimpshit. You bring power and >>> supplies to get started and last a while. Then you build shit. Wow, >>> what a concept. Obviously much too obscure for a fine mind like yours >>> to figure out. >> >>Nope, it takes a global supply and transportation system to support >>21st century technology all of which has to be payed for by somebody, >>space cadet. >> > > Now you're talking way, WAY belying 'survival', chimpshit. Make up > your mind. Now a colony has to instantly have and maintain the > standard of living of Connecticut? Nope to remain conscious for longer than 5 seconds. >> >>That is quite a bit more than just "build shit", space cadet. >> > > Keep shifting ground, chimpshit. It just makes you look desperate. > Your line was 'survive'. Now it's "live in rich suburbia". Wriggle, > wriggle, little chimpshit... Nope to remain conscious for longer than 5 seconds. -- Jim Pennino
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-12 15:28 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <6nsqgb1ajican66m5nonnd1t8cbttpip1a@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #58236 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>This goes along with you being unable to understand some people came
>>>>>to the Americas just to get away from Europe and live their lives on
>>>>>a farm, some came for business reasons and some came to spread the
>>>>>word of God. And there were yet more reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So they didn't come for ROI at all, despite your earlier puling.
>>>
>>>What part of the word "some" and "yet more reasons" did you not understand,
>>>space cadet?
>>>
>>
>> So stop puling about ROI, chimpshit.
>>
>
>Does the term ROI offend you some how?
>
No, your intellectual dishonesty offends me.
>
>>
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Not worth the effort to cross the street and spit on, space cadet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Coward, chimpshit. Like so many worthless internet piles, you're
>>>> brave as hell at the end of a wire...
>>>
>>>Are you requesting a physical confrontation, space cadet?
>>>
>>
>> You keep wanting me dead, chimpshit. Given your threats, I have good
>> reason to fear for my life and safety.
>>
>
>You have no idea what I wish unless you are now claiming to be a mind
>reader.
>
You keep saying it; "Fuck off and die". Hardly any need for inference
there.
As for being a mind reader helping with figuring out what you 'wish',
you would first have to have a mind.
>
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Funny that lots of fortunes were made off shipping stuff from the Americas,
>>>>>space cadet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But mostly from shipping stuff back, chimpshit. So now colonization
>>>> is all about the SHIPPERS making money?
>>>>
>>>
>>>So where did the money come from to acquire and ship stuff back come
>>>from, space cadet?
>>>
>>
>> So why were the colonies all always in massive debt, chimpshit?
>>
>
>You evaded the question again.
>
You evaded the question again. My question was your answer. It came
from BORROWING, which is why they were always massively in debt.
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Fuck off and die, space cadet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Come make me, chimpshit.
>>>
>>>Are you rquesting a physical confrontation, space cadet?
>>>
>>
>> You keep wishing me dead, chimpshit.
>
>You have no idea what I wish unless you are now claiming to be a mind
>reader.
>
You keep saying it; "Fuck off and die". Hardly any need for inference
there.
As for being a mind reader helping with figuring out what you 'wish',
you would first have to have a mind.
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Yep, ever taken a survival course of any kind, space cadet?
>>>>>
>>>>>Ever had any training on the logistics of keeping people alive in a
>>>>>remote location, space cadet?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Have you, chimpshit?
>>>
>>>Yes, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> When and where, chimpshit?
>>
>
>Survival, escape, and evasion courses.
>
Handwavium. Whose, when, and where?
>
>Your turn.
>
Force Recon, among other places.
>
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Lots of people watched the 1st Moon landing. How many watched the
>>>>>third one, space cadet?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Irrelevant, since they weren't being run as a reality show, chimpshit.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Nope, quite relevant, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Not relevant at all, chimpshit.
>>
>>>
>>>Most people find the space program to be boring, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> That's the difference between a documentary and a reality show,
>> chimpshit.
>>
>>>
>>>Reality shows depend on some sort of conflict or the peculiarities of
>>>"different" people to keep people interested.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah. So what?
>>
>>>
>>>What would living in a pressurized tin can have to offer to keep people
>>>interested, space cadet?
>>>
>>
>> What makes you think your fantasies apply, chimpshit? And even if
>> they do, ever heard of a reality show called Big Brother? It all
>> takes place inside an isolated house.
>>
>
>Which is a game show with a prize winner and constant conflicts.
>
Reality show about people "living in (essentially) a pressurized tin
can". Now what is it you claim people won't watch again?
>>
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>So where is the benefit to those shipped off, space cadet?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You'd have to ask the 200,000+ who volunteered, chimpshit. Reality
>>>> has rather neatly exploded your idiotic position that no one would
>>>> ever volunteer for such a trip.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Will they get residuals from the TV show?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ask them.
>>>
>>>And here I thought you were supposed to know everything, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Knowing more than you is hardly knowing 'everything', chimpshit. In
>> fact, knowing more than you is just a pretty low bar...
>>
>
>You evaded the question again.
>
You didn't ask a question I haven't answered, chimpshit.
>>>
>>>I would suppose that for a lot of the first batch it would be the
>>>adventure of it all, but that would all go away after the first baby
>>>was born.
>>>
>>
>> I would suggest that no one should accept what you would 'suggest'.
>
>You evaded the question again.
>
You didn't ask a question I haven't answered, chimpshit.
>>
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>The revolutions took care of that, space cadet, and that was for the
>>>>>colonies that were established to be a business, which not all colonies
>>>>>were.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So your position is that colonies become 'profitable' by defaulting
>>>> and shooting at those they owe money to? Yeah, that sounds like
>>>> something you'd believe.
>>>
>>>You are the one that brought up debt of the colonies as a entity,
>>>space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Non sequitur, chimpshit.
>
>Most of what you post is a non sequitur to evade questions.
>
So this is your latest tactic; don't ask a question and then whinge
about it not being answered?
>
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>I don't think you can just let go of something on Mars and have it
>>>>>fall back to Earth in one piece, space cadet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And you think a little shove with a solid rocket motor costs what,
>>>> chimpshit? Gravity does practically all the work. I'm sorry you're
>>>> stupid, chimpshit.
>>>
>>>Then getting to Mars in the first place must be pretty simple, space
>>>cadet. It is the same gravity potential both ways.
>>>
>>
>> Wow! Just 'wow'! Slide down a water slide, chimpshit. Now slide up
>> one. It ought to be easy, what with it being the same gravity
>> potential both ways...
>>
>
>That has to be the dumbest thing I've read in a long time.
>
Exactly what you said with regard to how getting to Mars must be so
easy.
>
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Incas and Mayans?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> After how many thousand years to organize? But colonies must be
>>>> 'instant' according to you, chimp. ROI and all that.
>>>
>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Only because you keep puling, chimpshit.
>>
>
>Because you read what you want to see, not what is wrtiten.
>
Irony, thy name is chimpshit.
>
>>
>>>
>>>What I said was it is possible to survive and thrive in the Americas
>>>without outside supply as shown by the millions of people that lived
>>>in the Americas before the Europeans showed up.
>>>
>>
>> And what was shown by the millions who died and all those who didn't
>> survive. Learn something on the original population of the Americas,
>> chimpshit.
>>
>
>There were somewhere between 50 million and 100 million people in the
>Americas before Europeans showed up, so survival couldn't have been
>to terribly difficult.
>
Apparently it was.
>
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>It took Spain huge armys and payed for local help to conquer them.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No. Again your history is deficient. Cortez took down the Aztec
>>>> Empire with 630 people, including women, slaves, and ships' crews. No
>>>> "vast army" at all. In fact, when the histories are examined, NONE of
>>>> Cortez' expedition are referred to as 'soldiers'.
>>>
>>>"The army with which Hernan Cortes besieged Tenochtitlan was composed of
>>>200,000 soldiers.."
>>>
>>
>> Finish the quote, you dishonest shit. "... of which fewer than 1%
>> were Spaniards." No "vast Spanish army" at all. Pit the locals
>> against each other was the name of the game.
>
>What part of "payed for local help" did you not understand?
>
What part of "not a vast Spanish army at all" did you not understand?
Spain fielded tiny forces, at best.
>>>
>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>There were millions of people in the Americas before the Europeans
>>>>>killed the vast majority of them with European diseases.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And almost all of them were living at a subsistence level and barely
>>>> surviving, even within the two empires you mention.
>>>
>>>Oh bullshit.
>>>
>>
>> More like chimpshit.
>>
>>>
>>>Even if that were true, it still does not mean that is is not possible
>>>to survive in the Americas without resupply from Europe, instead it
>>>proves that it is.
>>>
>>>And those were essentially Bronze Age civilizations and no one knows
>>>how they would have eventually developed if Europe didn't exist.
>>>
>>
>> We know how they would have developed. They hadn't advanced in
>> centuries. Most 'civilizations' in the Americas were stone age, with
>> a little bit of copper age in South America and perhaps a handful of
>> bronze age.
>>
>
>And it took centuries for Europeans to advance.
>
And in a thousand years indigenous peoples in the Americas had not.
>
>Europe had the technology motivator of war between neighboring empires,
>like England, France, Italy, Germany, etc.
>
>The Aztecs, Incas, and Mayans were too far apart to fight each other.
>
What a silly remark. The big empires may have been "too far apart to
fight each other", but there was constant fighting in and around both.
>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>Prime it with what, enough ice comets to create oceans, space cadet?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The same way Earth colonies were 'primed' with things like spinning
>>>> wheels, axes, and plows, dishonest chimpshit. You bring power and
>>>> supplies to get started and last a while. Then you build shit. Wow,
>>>> what a concept. Obviously much too obscure for a fine mind like yours
>>>> to figure out.
>>>
>>>Nope, it takes a global supply and transportation system to support
>>>21st century technology all of which has to be payed for by somebody,
>>>space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Now you're talking way, WAY belying 'survival', chimpshit. Make up
>> your mind. Now a colony has to instantly have and maintain the
>> standard of living of Connecticut?
>
>Nope to remain conscious for longer than 5 seconds.
>
That's not the level of technology you keep calling out for a Mars
colony.
>>>
>>>That is quite a bit more than just "build shit", space cadet.
>>>
>>
>> Keep shifting ground, chimpshit. It just makes you look desperate.
>> Your line was 'survive'. Now it's "live in rich suburbia". Wriggle,
>> wriggle, little chimpshit...
>
>Nope to remain conscious for longer than 5 seconds.
>
I rather wish you could remain conscious for any time at all.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-12 23:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <klb0uc-ndh.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #58244 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>This goes along with you being unable to understand some people came >>>>>>to the Americas just to get away from Europe and live their lives on >>>>>>a farm, some came for business reasons and some came to spread the >>>>>>word of God. And there were yet more reasons. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So they didn't come for ROI at all, despite your earlier puling. >>>> >>>>What part of the word "some" and "yet more reasons" did you not understand, >>>>space cadet? >>>> >>> >>> So stop puling about ROI, chimpshit. >>> >> >>Does the term ROI offend you some how? >> > > No, your intellectual dishonesty offends me. Your lack of understanding ROI offends me. >>> >>>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>Not worth the effort to cross the street and spit on, space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Coward, chimpshit. Like so many worthless internet piles, you're >>>>> brave as hell at the end of a wire... >>>> >>>>Are you requesting a physical confrontation, space cadet? >>>> >>> >>> You keep wanting me dead, chimpshit. Given your threats, I have good >>> reason to fear for my life and safety. >>> >> >>You have no idea what I wish unless you are now claiming to be a mind >>reader. >> > > You keep saying it; "Fuck off and die". Hardly any need for inference > there. Four simple words and you can't understand the meaning. > >> >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>Funny that lots of fortunes were made off shipping stuff from the Americas, >>>>>>space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But mostly from shipping stuff back, chimpshit. So now colonization >>>>> is all about the SHIPPERS making money? >>>>> >>>> >>>>So where did the money come from to acquire and ship stuff back come >>>>from, space cadet? >>>> >>> >>> So why were the colonies all always in massive debt, chimpshit? >>> >> >>You evaded the question again. >> > > You evaded the question again. My question was your answer. It came > from BORROWING, which is why they were always massively in debt. Before anyone can borrow, they have to have something, even if just a business plan, to borrow against. Credit does not last long if you miss payments. Where did the money come from to make the payments? >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>Fuck off and die, space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Come make me, chimpshit. >>>> >>>>Are you rquesting a physical confrontation, space cadet? >>>> >>> >>> You keep wishing me dead, chimpshit. >> >>You have no idea what I wish unless you are now claiming to be a mind >>reader. >> > > You keep saying it; "Fuck off and die". Hardly any need for inference > there. > > As for being a mind reader helping with figuring out what you 'wish', > you would first have to have a mind. Fuck off and die. >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>Yep, ever taken a survival course of any kind, space cadet? >>>>>> >>>>>>Ever had any training on the logistics of keeping people alive in a >>>>>>remote location, space cadet? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Have you, chimpshit? >>>> >>>>Yes, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> When and where, chimpshit? >>> >> >>Survival, escape, and evasion courses. >> > > Handwavium. Whose, when, and where? Irrelevant. Particularly irrelevant to a colony on Mars. > >> >>Your turn. >> > > Force Recon, among other places. > >> >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>Lots of people watched the 1st Moon landing. How many watched the >>>>>>third one, space cadet? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Irrelevant, since they weren't being run as a reality show, chimpshit. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Nope, quite relevant, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Not relevant at all, chimpshit. >>> >>>> >>>>Most people find the space program to be boring, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> That's the difference between a documentary and a reality show, >>> chimpshit. >>> >>>> >>>>Reality shows depend on some sort of conflict or the peculiarities of >>>>"different" people to keep people interested. >>>> >>> >>> Yeah. So what? >>> >>>> >>>>What would living in a pressurized tin can have to offer to keep people >>>>interested, space cadet? >>>> >>> >>> What makes you think your fantasies apply, chimpshit? And even if >>> they do, ever heard of a reality show called Big Brother? It all >>> takes place inside an isolated house. >>> >> >>Which is a game show with a prize winner and constant conflicts. >> > > Reality show about people "living in (essentially) a pressurized tin > can". Now what is it you claim people won't watch again? What will be the conflict and prize for the winner of this Martian reality show? > >>> >>>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>So where is the benefit to those shipped off, space cadet? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You'd have to ask the 200,000+ who volunteered, chimpshit. Reality >>>>> has rather neatly exploded your idiotic position that no one would >>>>> ever volunteer for such a trip. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Will they get residuals from the TV show? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ask them. >>>> >>>>And here I thought you were supposed to know everything, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Knowing more than you is hardly knowing 'everything', chimpshit. In >>> fact, knowing more than you is just a pretty low bar... >>> >> >>You evaded the question again. >> > > You didn't ask a question I haven't answered, chimpshit. Sure I did, you just avoided it so long you forgot the question, space cadet. Will they get residuals from the TV show? > >>>> >>>>I would suppose that for a lot of the first batch it would be the >>>>adventure of it all, but that would all go away after the first baby >>>>was born. >>>> >>> >>> I would suggest that no one should accept what you would 'suggest'. >> >>You evaded the question again. >> > > You didn't ask a question I haven't answered, chimpshit. Sure I did, you just avoided it so long you forgot the question, space cadet. What would be the motivation to spend your life on Mars? >>>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>The revolutions took care of that, space cadet, and that was for the >>>>>>colonies that were established to be a business, which not all colonies >>>>>>were. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So your position is that colonies become 'profitable' by defaulting >>>>> and shooting at those they owe money to? Yeah, that sounds like >>>>> something you'd believe. >>>> >>>>You are the one that brought up debt of the colonies as a entity, >>>>space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Non sequitur, chimpshit. >> >>Most of what you post is a non sequitur to evade questions. >> > > So this is your latest tactic; don't ask a question and then whinge > about it not being answered? You just spend so long avoiding questions you forget what they were, space cadet. >> >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>I don't think you can just let go of something on Mars and have it >>>>>>fall back to Earth in one piece, space cadet. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And you think a little shove with a solid rocket motor costs what, >>>>> chimpshit? Gravity does practically all the work. I'm sorry you're >>>>> stupid, chimpshit. >>>> >>>>Then getting to Mars in the first place must be pretty simple, space >>>>cadet. It is the same gravity potential both ways. >>>> >>> >>> Wow! Just 'wow'! Slide down a water slide, chimpshit. Now slide up >>> one. It ought to be easy, what with it being the same gravity >>> potential both ways... >>> >> >>That has to be the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. >> > > Exactly what you said with regard to how getting to Mars must be so > easy. Exactly what you said with regard to how getting to Earth must be so easy. >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>Incas and Mayans? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> After how many thousand years to organize? But colonies must be >>>>> 'instant' according to you, chimp. ROI and all that. >>>> >>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Only because you keep puling, chimpshit. >>> >> >>Because you read what you want to see, not what is wrtiten. >> > > Irony, thy name is chimpshit. Idiosy, thy name is space cadet. >>> >>>> >>>>What I said was it is possible to survive and thrive in the Americas >>>>without outside supply as shown by the millions of people that lived >>>>in the Americas before the Europeans showed up. >>>> >>> >>> And what was shown by the millions who died and all those who didn't >>> survive. Learn something on the original population of the Americas, >>> chimpshit. >>> >> >>There were somewhere between 50 million and 100 million people in the >>Americas before Europeans showed up, so survival couldn't have been >>to terribly difficult. >> > > Apparently it was. Easy enough that the population was somewhere between 50 million and 100 million people and growing. >> >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>It took Spain huge armys and payed for local help to conquer them. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No. Again your history is deficient. Cortez took down the Aztec >>>>> Empire with 630 people, including women, slaves, and ships' crews. No >>>>> "vast army" at all. In fact, when the histories are examined, NONE of >>>>> Cortez' expedition are referred to as 'soldiers'. >>>> >>>>"The army with which Hernan Cortes besieged Tenochtitlan was composed of >>>>200,000 soldiers.." >>>> >>> >>> Finish the quote, you dishonest shit. "... of which fewer than 1% >>> were Spaniards." No "vast Spanish army" at all. Pit the locals >>> against each other was the name of the game. >> >>What part of "payed for local help" did you not understand? >> > > What part of "not a vast Spanish army at all" did you not understand? > Spain fielded tiny forces, at best. Mercenaries were a part of the Spanish military force and lead by Spanish military leaders. Where the cannon fodder originates from is irrelevant. And military conquests are irrelevant to Martian colonies unless the Martians are hiding underground. >>>> >>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador >>>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>There were millions of people in the Americas before the Europeans >>>>>>killed the vast majority of them with European diseases. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And almost all of them were living at a subsistence level and barely >>>>> surviving, even within the two empires you mention. >>>> >>>>Oh bullshit. >>>> >>> >>> More like chimpshit. >>> >>>> >>>>Even if that were true, it still does not mean that is is not possible >>>>to survive in the Americas without resupply from Europe, instead it >>>>proves that it is. >>>> >>>>And those were essentially Bronze Age civilizations and no one knows >>>>how they would have eventually developed if Europe didn't exist. >>>> >>> >>> We know how they would have developed. They hadn't advanced in >>> centuries. Most 'civilizations' in the Americas were stone age, with >>> a little bit of copper age in South America and perhaps a handful of >>> bronze age. >>> >> >>And it took centuries for Europeans to advance. >> > > And in a thousand years indigenous peoples in the Americas had not. Which does NOT mean they never would. And it is irrelevant to a colony on Mars. > >> >>Europe had the technology motivator of war between neighboring empires, >>like England, France, Italy, Germany, etc. >> >>The Aztecs, Incas, and Mayans were too far apart to fight each other. >> > > What a silly remark. The big empires may have been "too far apart to > fight each other", but there was constant fighting in and around both. Not nation states at war, and it is irrelevant to colonies on Mars. > >>> >>>><snip> >>>> >>>>>>Prime it with what, enough ice comets to create oceans, space cadet? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The same way Earth colonies were 'primed' with things like spinning >>>>> wheels, axes, and plows, dishonest chimpshit. You bring power and >>>>> supplies to get started and last a while. Then you build shit. Wow, >>>>> what a concept. Obviously much too obscure for a fine mind like yours >>>>> to figure out. >>>> >>>>Nope, it takes a global supply and transportation system to support >>>>21st century technology all of which has to be payed for by somebody, >>>>space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Now you're talking way, WAY belying 'survival', chimpshit. Make up >>> your mind. Now a colony has to instantly have and maintain the >>> standard of living of Connecticut? >> >>Nope to remain conscious for longer than 5 seconds. >> > > That's not the level of technology you keep calling out for a Mars > colony. Sure it is. To survive longer than 5 seconds on Mars takes a big pile of 21st century technology, all of which must be maintained. >>>> >>>>That is quite a bit more than just "build shit", space cadet. >>>> >>> >>> Keep shifting ground, chimpshit. It just makes you look desperate. >>> Your line was 'survive'. Now it's "live in rich suburbia". Wriggle, >>> wriggle, little chimpshit... >> >>Nope to remain conscious for longer than 5 seconds. >> > > I rather wish you could remain conscious for any time at all. Hey, that's how they could keep people interested in a Martian reality show, have an explosive decompression and watch people die in seconds. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-12 22:05 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <5vjrgb12k1q8atdd8i8ktkh8ltua3dk2fe@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #58249 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >> >>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>> >>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>This goes along with you being unable to understand some people came >>>>>>>to the Americas just to get away from Europe and live their lives on >>>>>>>a farm, some came for business reasons and some came to spread the >>>>>>>word of God. And there were yet more reasons. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> So they didn't come for ROI at all, despite your earlier puling. >>>>> >>>>>What part of the word "some" and "yet more reasons" did you not understand, >>>>>space cadet? >>>>> >>>> >>>> So stop puling about ROI, chimpshit. >>>> >>> >>>Does the term ROI offend you some how? >>> >> >> No, your intellectual dishonesty offends me. >> > >Your lack of understanding ROI offends me. > So you're offended by your own stupidity, then, since your wet dreams are the only place I don't understand ROI. >>>> >>>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>Not worth the effort to cross the street and spit on, space cadet. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Coward, chimpshit. Like so many worthless internet piles, you're >>>>>> brave as hell at the end of a wire... >>>>> >>>>>Are you requesting a physical confrontation, space cadet? >>>>> >>>> >>>> You keep wanting me dead, chimpshit. Given your threats, I have good >>>> reason to fear for my life and safety. >>>> >>> >>>You have no idea what I wish unless you are now claiming to be a mind >>>reader. >>> >> >> You keep saying it; "Fuck off and die". Hardly any need for inference >> there. > >Four simple words and you can't understand the meaning. > You keep saying "die". Look it up. > >> >>> >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>Funny that lots of fortunes were made off shipping stuff from the Americas, >>>>>>>space cadet. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> But mostly from shipping stuff back, chimpshit. So now colonization >>>>>> is all about the SHIPPERS making money? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>So where did the money come from to acquire and ship stuff back come >>>>>from, space cadet? >>>>> >>>> >>>> So why were the colonies all always in massive debt, chimpshit? >>>> >>> >>>You evaded the question again. >>> >> >> You evaded the question again. My question was your answer. It came >> from BORROWING, which is why they were always massively in debt. >> > >Before anyone can borrow, they have to have something, even if just >a business plan, to borrow against. Credit does not last long if you >miss payments. > >Where did the money come from to make the payments? > More borrowing, which is why they were in perpetually increasing debt. >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>Fuck off and die, space cadet. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Come make me, chimpshit. >>>>> >>>>>Are you rquesting a physical confrontation, space cadet? >>>>> >>>> >>>> You keep wishing me dead, chimpshit. >>> >>>You have no idea what I wish unless you are now claiming to be a mind >>>reader. >>> >> >> You keep saying it; "Fuck off and die". Hardly any need for inference >> there. >> >> As for being a mind reader helping with figuring out what you 'wish', >> you would first have to have a mind. > >Fuck off and die. > Come make me. >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>Yep, ever taken a survival course of any kind, space cadet? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ever had any training on the logistics of keeping people alive in a >>>>>>>remote location, space cadet? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Have you, chimpshit? >>>>> >>>>>Yes, space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> When and where, chimpshit? >>>> >>> >>>Survival, escape, and evasion courses. >>> >> >> Handwavium. Whose, when, and where? >> > >Irrelevant. > >Particularly irrelevant to a colony on Mars. > So you dodge the question yet again. > >> >>> >>>Your turn. >>> >> >> Force Recon, among other places. >> >>> >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>Lots of people watched the 1st Moon landing. How many watched the >>>>>>>third one, space cadet? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Irrelevant, since they weren't being run as a reality show, chimpshit. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Nope, quite relevant, space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Not relevant at all, chimpshit. >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Most people find the space program to be boring, space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> That's the difference between a documentary and a reality show, >>>> chimpshit. >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Reality shows depend on some sort of conflict or the peculiarities of >>>>>"different" people to keep people interested. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Yeah. So what? >>>> >>>>> >>>>>What would living in a pressurized tin can have to offer to keep people >>>>>interested, space cadet? >>>>> >>>> >>>> What makes you think your fantasies apply, chimpshit? And even if >>>> they do, ever heard of a reality show called Big Brother? It all >>>> takes place inside an isolated house. >>>> >>> >>>Which is a game show with a prize winner and constant conflicts. >>> >> >> Reality show about people "living in (essentially) a pressurized tin >> can". Now what is it you claim people won't watch again? >> > >What will be the conflict and prize for the winner of this Martian >reality show? > The conflicts are easy; both staged and real. AS for the 'prize', talk to the organizer. > >> >>>> >>>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>So where is the benefit to those shipped off, space cadet? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You'd have to ask the 200,000+ who volunteered, chimpshit. Reality >>>>>> has rather neatly exploded your idiotic position that no one would >>>>>> ever volunteer for such a trip. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Will they get residuals from the TV show? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ask them. >>>>> >>>>>And here I thought you were supposed to know everything, space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Knowing more than you is hardly knowing 'everything', chimpshit. In >>>> fact, knowing more than you is just a pretty low bar... >>>> >>> >>>You evaded the question again. >>> >> >> You didn't ask a question I haven't answered, chimpshit. >> > >Sure I did, you just avoided it so long you forgot the question, space >cadet. > You didn't ask any question I haven't answered. > >Will they get residuals from the TV show? > ANSWER: I have no idea. You'll have to ask them. See that? That's an ANSWER. I gave it to you before. > >> >>>>> >>>>>I would suppose that for a lot of the first batch it would be the >>>>>adventure of it all, but that would all go away after the first baby >>>>>was born. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I would suggest that no one should accept what you would 'suggest'. >>> >>>You evaded the question again. >>> >> >> You didn't ask a question I haven't answered, chimpshit. >> > >Sure I did, you just avoided it so long you forgot the question, space >cadet. > Nope. You just didn't like the answer. > >What would be the motivation to spend your life on Mars? > ANSWER: You'll have to ask the 200,000+ people who volunteered to do so. I would expect their reasons are various. See that? That's an ANSWER. I gave it to you before. >>>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>The revolutions took care of that, space cadet, and that was for the >>>>>>>colonies that were established to be a business, which not all colonies >>>>>>>were. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> So your position is that colonies become 'profitable' by defaulting >>>>>> and shooting at those they owe money to? Yeah, that sounds like >>>>>> something you'd believe. >>>>> >>>>>You are the one that brought up debt of the colonies as a entity, >>>>>space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Non sequitur, chimpshit. >>> >>>Most of what you post is a non sequitur to evade questions. >>> >> >> So this is your latest tactic; don't ask a question and then whinge >> about it not being answered? >> > >You just spend so long avoiding questions you forget what they were, >space cadet. > You just spend so long pounding your chest (and your pud) that you forget you've been given answers, chimpshit. >>> >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>I don't think you can just let go of something on Mars and have it >>>>>>>fall back to Earth in one piece, space cadet. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And you think a little shove with a solid rocket motor costs what, >>>>>> chimpshit? Gravity does practically all the work. I'm sorry you're >>>>>> stupid, chimpshit. >>>>> >>>>>Then getting to Mars in the first place must be pretty simple, space >>>>>cadet. It is the same gravity potential both ways. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Wow! Just 'wow'! Slide down a water slide, chimpshit. Now slide up >>>> one. It ought to be easy, what with it being the same gravity >>>> potential both ways... >>>> >>> >>>That has to be the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. >>> >> >> Exactly what you said with regard to how getting to Mars must be so >> easy. >> > >Exactly what you said with regard to how getting to Earth must be so >easy. > Going down the slide is easy. Going up the slide is harder. You can't really be this thick so I have to assume it's just intellectual dishonesty. >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>Incas and Mayans? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> After how many thousand years to organize? But colonies must be >>>>>> 'instant' according to you, chimp. ROI and all that. >>>>> >>>>>There go those voices in your head again, space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Only because you keep puling, chimpshit. >>>> >>> >>>Because you read what you want to see, not what is wrtiten. >>> >> >> Irony, thy name is chimpshit. >> > >Idiosy, thy name is space cadet. > See what I mean about that irony... >>>> >>>>> >>>>>What I said was it is possible to survive and thrive in the Americas >>>>>without outside supply as shown by the millions of people that lived >>>>>in the Americas before the Europeans showed up. >>>>> >>>> >>>> And what was shown by the millions who died and all those who didn't >>>> survive. Learn something on the original population of the Americas, >>>> chimpshit. >>>> >>> >>>There were somewhere between 50 million and 100 million people in the >>>Americas before Europeans showed up, so survival couldn't have been >>>to terribly difficult. >>> >> >> Apparently it was. >> > >Easy enough that the population was somewhere between 50 million and 100 >million people and growing. > And then it wasn't. >>> >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>It took Spain huge armys and payed for local help to conquer them. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> No. Again your history is deficient. Cortez took down the Aztec >>>>>> Empire with 630 people, including women, slaves, and ships' crews. No >>>>>> "vast army" at all. In fact, when the histories are examined, NONE of >>>>>> Cortez' expedition are referred to as 'soldiers'. >>>>> >>>>>"The army with which Hernan Cortes besieged Tenochtitlan was composed of >>>>>200,000 soldiers.." >>>>> >>>> >>>> Finish the quote, you dishonest shit. "... of which fewer than 1% >>>> were Spaniards." No "vast Spanish army" at all. Pit the locals >>>> against each other was the name of the game. >>> >>>What part of "payed for local help" did you not understand? >>> >> >> What part of "not a vast Spanish army at all" did you not understand? >> Spain fielded tiny forces, at best. >> > >Mercenaries were a part of the Spanish military force and lead by >Spanish military leaders. > >Where the cannon fodder originates from is irrelevant. > What a load of bollocks! Do you know ANYTHING about the conquistadors? If so, you hide it well. > >And military conquests are irrelevant to Martian colonies unless the >Martians are hiding underground. > So why did you bring up those non-existent "vast Spanish armies" in the first place? >>>>> >>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador >>>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>There were millions of people in the Americas before the Europeans >>>>>>>killed the vast majority of them with European diseases. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And almost all of them were living at a subsistence level and barely >>>>>> surviving, even within the two empires you mention. >>>>> >>>>>Oh bullshit. >>>>> >>>> >>>> More like chimpshit. >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Even if that were true, it still does not mean that is is not possible >>>>>to survive in the Americas without resupply from Europe, instead it >>>>>proves that it is. >>>>> >>>>>And those were essentially Bronze Age civilizations and no one knows >>>>>how they would have eventually developed if Europe didn't exist. >>>>> >>>> >>>> We know how they would have developed. They hadn't advanced in >>>> centuries. Most 'civilizations' in the Americas were stone age, with >>>> a little bit of copper age in South America and perhaps a handful of >>>> bronze age. >>>> >>> >>>And it took centuries for Europeans to advance. >>> >> >> And in a thousand years indigenous peoples in the Americas had not. >> > >Which does NOT mean they never would. > But the odds are pretty damned high they wouldn't. Do you know anything about the development of metallurgy in the New World? > >And it is irrelevant to a colony on Mars. > Then why did you bring it up? > >> >>> >>>Europe had the technology motivator of war between neighboring empires, >>>like England, France, Italy, Germany, etc. >>> >>>The Aztecs, Incas, and Mayans were too far apart to fight each other. >>> >> >> What a silly remark. The big empires may have been "too far apart to >> fight each other", but there was constant fighting in and around both. >> > >Not nation states at war, and it is irrelevant to colonies on Mars. > You really don't understand anything about any of this, do you? Where did the Spaniards find all those people willing to fight the big empires? Answer is that those 'big empires' weren't 'nation states' the way you mean it. Think of Italy back in the city state days... >> >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>> >>>>>>>Prime it with what, enough ice comets to create oceans, space cadet? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The same way Earth colonies were 'primed' with things like spinning >>>>>> wheels, axes, and plows, dishonest chimpshit. You bring power and >>>>>> supplies to get started and last a while. Then you build shit. Wow, >>>>>> what a concept. Obviously much too obscure for a fine mind like yours >>>>>> to figure out. >>>>> >>>>>Nope, it takes a global supply and transportation system to support >>>>>21st century technology all of which has to be payed for by somebody, >>>>>space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Now you're talking way, WAY belying 'survival', chimpshit. Make up >>>> your mind. Now a colony has to instantly have and maintain the >>>> standard of living of Connecticut? >>> >>>Nope to remain conscious for longer than 5 seconds. >>> >> >> That's not the level of technology you keep calling out for a Mars >> colony. >> > >Sure it is. > Liar. > >To survive longer than 5 seconds on Mars takes a big pile of 21st >century technology, all of which must be maintained. > Nope. It does initially, but then Europeans surviving in the New World took a big pile of modern (at the time) technology, too. >>>>> >>>>>That is quite a bit more than just "build shit", space cadet. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Keep shifting ground, chimpshit. It just makes you look desperate. >>>> Your line was 'survive'. Now it's "live in rich suburbia". Wriggle, >>>> wriggle, little chimpshit... >>> >>>Nope to remain conscious for longer than 5 seconds. >>> >> >> I rather wish you could remain conscious for any time at all. >> > >Hey, that's how they could keep people interested in a Martian reality >show, have an explosive decompression and watch people die in seconds. > I don't doubt that that would appeal to a dickhead like you. -- You are What you do When it counts.
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-13 17:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <rhd2uc-qvn.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #58258 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: Nothing. The pre-Columbian Americas had a population estimated by scholars of somewhere beteen 50 million and 100 million people. The technology level of the more advanced civilizations was roughly equivelant to the Bronze Age in Europe and iron pre-Columbian arifacts have been found indicating they were on the leading edge of the Iron Age. Thses peoples and civilizations existed for thousands of years before any European arrived. Therefore it is obvious that support from Europe is not needed to be able to survive and thrive in the Americas. Mars on the other hand requires 21st century technology to survive for longer than about 5 seconds, i.e. the time of useful consciousness at the pressure on the surface of Mars. The pressure is so low it is below the Armstrong limit which means the human body requires a pressure suit, not just an oxygen mask. Comparing colonization on Mars to colonization of the Americas is mostly pointless on that fact alone and becomes entirely so when the complete lack of available drinking water and food sources is concidered. 21st century technology rquires global resources that are spread all over the Earth, a global transportation system to bring those resources to processing centers to make raw stock and transportation to fabricating centers to make finished goods. It is unlikely that resource distribution is any different on Mars than it is on Earth, other than the complete lack of hydrocarbon sources such as petroleum. coal, and natural gas. Until such global transportation and manufacturing abilities exist on Mars, the only way a Martian colony could expand, or even maintain the technology, to eventually become self sustaining is to import parts and finished goods from Earth. Note that we are talking about real technology like computers, enviromental controllers, motors with rare earth parts, etc., but even 20th century technology such as sheet aluminimum, all the alloys of steel, and plastics will take a long time. If it is actually a colony with life time residents and kids, after not too many years the population increases from Martian births and the technology gets older and more prone to failure and the need for supplies to maintain and expand infrastructure increases on the high end tech stuff. Someone has to pay for the acquisition and transport of the parts and goods to Mars. There are two ways to pay that bill: 1. Gifts from Earth, i.e tax money. 2. Profit from Martian exports. Given that maintaining even a small colony will cost billions of dollars, and expanding it planet wide untold trillions of dollars, it is unlikely to be payed for from gifts. There is no resource on Mars that has enough profit in exporting it to Earth to generate those untold trillions of dollars so exports are out also. If someone thinks otherwise, name that good. The model for initial financing by charging the colonists for transport would get things started but as the rate of colony population grows and the number of people wanting to go to Mars decreases you quickly find that that is a Ponzi scheme in the long run. -- Jim Pennino
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| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-13 12:53 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <867tgb908akbg41jta1rbn7prs8a88rt63@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #58273 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Nothing.
>
>The pre-Columbian Americas had a population estimated by scholars of
>somewhere beteen 50 million and 100 million people.
>
And then they died, so survival is not the dead cinch that the chimp
insists it is.
>
>The technology level of the more advanced civilizations was roughly
>equivelant to the Bronze Age in Europe and iron pre-Columbian arifacts
>have been found indicating they were on the leading edge of the Iron Age.
>
Yes and no. There was ONE culture that developed bronze age
technology but underused it (mostly for decoration, so the color was
more important than the quality of the metallurgy). That gradually
spread, was lost, spread again.
Iron Age? No.
>
>Thses peoples and civilizations existed for thousands of years before
>any European arrived.
>
>Therefore it is obvious that support from Europe is not needed to be able
>to survive and thrive in the Americas.
>
After you've had thousands of years. Again, most inhabitants of the
new world were right at the edge of survival. Jim never explains why
so many cultures and colonies died.
>
>Mars on the other hand requires 21st century technology to survive for
>longer than about 5 seconds, i.e. the time of useful consciousness at
>the pressure on the surface of Mars. The pressure is so low it is below
>the Armstrong limit which means the human body requires a pressure suit,
>not just an oxygen mask.
>
>Comparing colonization on Mars to colonization of the Americas is mostly
>pointless on that fact alone and becomes entirely so when the complete
>lack of available drinking water and food sources is concidered.
>
Yet Jim insists on those comparisons. Then when it doesn't go as he
wants it is suddenly irrelevant.
>
>21st century technology rquires global resources that are spread all over
>the Earth, a global transportation system to bring those resources to
>processing centers to make raw stock and transportation to fabricating
>centers to make finished goods.
>
Jim needs to learn more about just what it takes to survive on Mars.
Air and water aren't that difficult. Jim ignores any evidence that
disagrees with his preconceptions. All it really takes for SURVIVAL
on Mars is power, which is not that hard to bootstrap. Yes, you have
to bring in some 'starter' resources. This shouldn't be any surprise
to anyone, but seems to astound Jim and leave him with the view that
that somehow makes colonization impossible.
>
>It is unlikely that resource distribution is any different on Mars than
>it is on Earth, other than the complete lack of hydrocarbon sources such
>as petroleum. coal, and natural gas.
>
Incorrect. Most Martian minerals are oxides of some sort, which makes
getting oxygen not all that difficult. There is lots of available
water, which makes that simple as well as acting as another potential
source of oxygen.
>
>Until such global transportation and manufacturing abilities exist on
>Mars, the only way a Martian colony could expand, or even maintain
>the technology, to eventually become self sustaining is to import parts
>and finished goods from Earth. Note that we are talking about real
>technology like computers, enviromental controllers, motors with rare
>earth parts, etc., but even 20th century technology such as sheet
>aluminimum, all the alloys of steel, and plastics will take a long
>time.
>
Note that Jim is wrong here. He imposes an unnecessary 'requirement'
and then complains that because it cannot be met that colonization is
impossible.
>
>If it is actually a colony with life time residents and kids, after not
>too many years the population increases from Martian births and the
>technology gets older and more prone to failure and the need for supplies
>to maintain and expand infrastructure increases on the high end tech stuff.
>
Just like every other colony on Earth. Life at the top requires
imports. Life at the bottom, not so much.
>
>Someone has to pay for the acquisition and transport of the parts and
>goods to Mars.
>
>There are two ways to pay that bill:
>
>1. Gifts from Earth, i.e tax money.
>
>2. Profit from Martian exports.
>
Note that English colonies in North America could not 'pay that bill',
either. Also note that Jim is rather unimaginative with regard to how
a Mars civilization could 'make money' and just ignores anything that
doesn't fit his "shipping rocks" mind set for 'products'.
>
>Given that maintaining even a small colony will cost billions of dollars,
>and expanding it planet wide untold trillions of dollars, it is unlikely
>to be payed for from gifts.
>
>There is no resource on Mars that has enough profit in exporting it to
>Earth to generate those untold trillions of dollars so exports are out
>also.
>
>If someone thinks otherwise, name that good.
>
Note that I've already done that for him. He just doesn't like that
there is an answer, so he ignores it.
Most of those 'untold trillions' are largely in 'internal to Mars'
money and thus are unrelated to his 'shipping rocks'. Ask yourself
how the American West was settled.
>
>The model for initial financing by charging the colonists for transport
>would get things started but as the rate of colony population grows
>and the number of people wanting to go to Mars decreases you quickly
>find that that is a Ponzi scheme in the long run.
>
I'll just note that for some reason Jim thinks that Mars colonization
will attract people in exactly the reverse of every other colonization
in the history of the human race. The number of people wanting to
colonize doesn't decrease over time. As a colony grows interest in
colonization by those at home INCREASES. Colonization is easier
because more infrastructure is present and it's just 'easier' to go to
the colony. Costs are lower with time, both in transport and in the
supplies you have to bring.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-13 20:31 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <9um2uc-67p.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #58281 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>Nothing. >> >>The pre-Columbian Americas had a population estimated by scholars of >>somewhere beteen 50 million and 100 million people. >> > > And then they died, so survival is not the dead cinch that the chimp > insists it is. 80% to 90% from European diseases, so apparently it was before the Europeans showed up. >> >>The technology level of the more advanced civilizations was roughly >>equivelant to the Bronze Age in Europe and iron pre-Columbian arifacts >>have been found indicating they were on the leading edge of the Iron Age. >> > > Yes and no. There was ONE culture that developed bronze age > technology but underused it (mostly for decoration, so the color was > more important than the quality of the metallurgy). That gradually > spread, was lost, spread again. > > Iron Age? No. Edge of Iron Age, yes. >> >>Thses peoples and civilizations existed for thousands of years before >>any European arrived. >> >>Therefore it is obvious that support from Europe is not needed to be able >>to survive and thrive in the Americas. >> > > After you've had thousands of years. Again, most inhabitants of the > new world were right at the edge of survival. Jim never explains why > so many cultures and colonies died. The time it took to happen is irrelevant, it happened. 0% to 90% of the indiginous people died from European diseases for which they had zero immunity. And as I have said several times before, the Europeans mostly died of stupidity; chasing non-existant gold, disease, not tending to crops, poor site planning, fighting with the indiginous people, fighting with other political entities. >>Mars on the other hand requires 21st century technology to survive for >>longer than about 5 seconds, i.e. the time of useful consciousness at >>the pressure on the surface of Mars. The pressure is so low it is below >>the Armstrong limit which means the human body requires a pressure suit, >>not just an oxygen mask. >> >>Comparing colonization on Mars to colonization of the Americas is mostly >>pointless on that fact alone and becomes entirely so when the complete >>lack of available drinking water and food sources is concidered. >> > > Yet Jim insists on those comparisons. Then when it doesn't go as he > wants it is suddenly irrelevant. Nope, I never insisted on comparing colonization of Mars to colononization of the Americas, that was you. I actually think that comparison is childish, stupdid, and ignorant of reality. >> >>21st century technology rquires global resources that are spread all over >>the Earth, a global transportation system to bring those resources to >>processing centers to make raw stock and transportation to fabricating >>centers to make finished goods. >> > > Jim needs to learn more about just what it takes to survive on Mars. > Air and water aren't that difficult. Jim ignores any evidence that > disagrees with his preconceptions. All it really takes for SURVIVAL > on Mars is power, which is not that hard to bootstrap. Yes, you have > to bring in some 'starter' resources. This shouldn't be any surprise > to anyone, but seems to astound Jim and leave him with the view that > that somehow makes colonization impossible. Power gives you some air and water, but it is not a magic bullet if talking about a large, growing colony as opposed to a research station with limited needs. For example, it has been said there is frozen water below the Martian surface so all that needs to be done is dig it up and melt it. That is all well and good until you have dug up all the ice in the area, which unlike a flowing river, does not replenish itself quickly. >>It is unlikely that resource distribution is any different on Mars than >>it is on Earth, other than the complete lack of hydrocarbon sources such >>as petroleum. coal, and natural gas. >> > > Incorrect. Most Martian minerals are oxides of some sort, which makes > getting oxygen not all that difficult. There is lots of available > water, which makes that simple as well as acting as another potential > source of oxygen. The point was those resources, just like the Earth, are most likely spread all over the planet and not all in one nice neat place. The resources needed to support 21st century technology consists of most all of the first 98 elements of the periodic table. >> >>Until such global transportation and manufacturing abilities exist on >>Mars, the only way a Martian colony could expand, or even maintain >>the technology, to eventually become self sustaining is to import parts >>and finished goods from Earth. Note that we are talking about real >>technology like computers, enviromental controllers, motors with rare >>earth parts, etc., but even 20th century technology such as sheet >>aluminimum, all the alloys of steel, and plastics will take a long >>time. >> > > Note that Jim is wrong here. He imposes an unnecessary 'requirement' > and then complains that because it cannot be met that colonization is > impossible. See above and the number of elements needed to support 21st century technology. >>If it is actually a colony with life time residents and kids, after not >>too many years the population increases from Martian births and the >>technology gets older and more prone to failure and the need for supplies >>to maintain and expand infrastructure increases on the high end tech stuff. >> > > Just like every other colony on Earth. Life at the top requires > imports. Life at the bottom, not so much. An expanding colony requires expanding resources and repair parts that can not be supplied locally until you have a global colony as described above. >>Someone has to pay for the acquisition and transport of the parts and >>goods to Mars. >> >>There are two ways to pay that bill: >> >>1. Gifts from Earth, i.e tax money. >> >>2. Profit from Martian exports. >> > > Note that English colonies in North America could not 'pay that bill', > either. Also note that Jim is rather unimaginative with regard to how > a Mars civilization could 'make money' and just ignores anything that > doesn't fit his "shipping rocks" mind set for 'products'. Note that the requirements to survive in a 16th century world are entirely different than the requirements to survive on Mars. And no matter how you try to evade it, someone has to pay for it. >>Given that maintaining even a small colony will cost billions of dollars, >>and expanding it planet wide untold trillions of dollars, it is unlikely >>to be payed for from gifts. >> >>There is no resource on Mars that has enough profit in exporting it to >>Earth to generate those untold trillions of dollars so exports are out >>also. >> >>If someone thinks otherwise, name that good. >> > > Note that I've already done that for him. He just doesn't like that > there is an answer, so he ignores it. Nope, you arm waved about telecommunications and software. > Most of those 'untold trillions' are largely in 'internal to Mars' > money and thus are unrelated to his 'shipping rocks'. Ask yourself > how the American West was settled. Nope, again we are talking about the trillions in stuff that has to be acquired on Earth and shipped to Mars to maintain and expand the colooy. The American West was settled by farmers in horse drawn wagons with hand tools and sacks of seed, which is hardly relevant to Mars. >>The model for initial financing by charging the colonists for transport >>would get things started but as the rate of colony population grows >>and the number of people wanting to go to Mars decreases you quickly >>find that that is a Ponzi scheme in the long run. >> > > I'll just note that for some reason Jim thinks that Mars colonization > will attract people in exactly the reverse of every other colonization > in the history of the human race. The number of people wanting to > colonize doesn't decrease over time. As a colony grows interest in > colonization by those at home INCREASES. Colonization is easier > because more infrastructure is present and it's just 'easier' to go to > the colony. Costs are lower with time, both in transport and in the > supplies you have to bring. So where do sign up so I can take my horse drawn wagon accross the Martian plains and settle in a nice spot near a stream, build a log cabin and plant my crops? -- Jim Pennino
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-13 18:54 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <dostgbll5r8cka4p9etq4b1nr8q1d18vku@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #58289 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Nothing.
>>>
>>>The pre-Columbian Americas had a population estimated by scholars of
>>>somewhere beteen 50 million and 100 million people.
>>>
>>
>> And then they died, so survival is not the dead cinch that the chimp
>> insists it is.
>
>80% to 90% from European diseases, so apparently it was before the
>Europeans showed up.
>
Most of that postulated number died before they ever met a European.
>>>
>>>The technology level of the more advanced civilizations was roughly
>>>equivelant to the Bronze Age in Europe and iron pre-Columbian arifacts
>>>have been found indicating they were on the leading edge of the Iron Age.
>>>
>>
>> Yes and no. There was ONE culture that developed bronze age
>> technology but underused it (mostly for decoration, so the color was
>> more important than the quality of the metallurgy). That gradually
>> spread, was lost, spread again.
>>
>> Iron Age? No.
>
>Edge of Iron Age, yes.
>
No, being bronze age with limited tool use is not "edge of Iron Age".
>
>>>
>>>Thses peoples and civilizations existed for thousands of years before
>>>any European arrived.
>>>
>>>Therefore it is obvious that support from Europe is not needed to be able
>>>to survive and thrive in the Americas.
>>>
>>
>> After you've had thousands of years. Again, most inhabitants of the
>> new world were right at the edge of survival. Jim never explains why
>> so many cultures and colonies died.
>
>The time it took to happen is irrelevant, it happened.
>
The time it took to happen is very relevant. Give a Mars colony the
same amount of time...
>
>0% to 90% of the indiginous people died from European diseases for which
>they had zero immunity.
>
So survival wasn't so easy after all.
>
>And as I have said several times before, the Europeans mostly died of
>stupidity; chasing non-existant gold, disease, not tending to crops,
>poor site planning, fighting with the indiginous people, fighting
>with other political entities.
>
You can repeat incorrect things as frequently as you like. Repetition
doesn't make them correct.
>>>Mars on the other hand requires 21st century technology to survive for
>>>longer than about 5 seconds, i.e. the time of useful consciousness at
>>>the pressure on the surface of Mars. The pressure is so low it is below
>>>the Armstrong limit which means the human body requires a pressure suit,
>>>not just an oxygen mask.
>>>
>>>Comparing colonization on Mars to colonization of the Americas is mostly
>>>pointless on that fact alone and becomes entirely so when the complete
>>>lack of available drinking water and food sources is concidered.
>>>
>>
>> Yet Jim insists on those comparisons. Then when it doesn't go as he
>> wants it is suddenly irrelevant.
>
>Nope, I never insisted on comparing colonization of Mars to colononization
>of the Americas, that was you.
>
Liar. You're the one constantly nattering on about how you can "drop
people naked in colonies on Earth and they survive".
>
>I actually think that comparison is childish, stupdid, and ignorant
>of reality.
>
Then why do you keep bringing it up?
>>>
>>>21st century technology rquires global resources that are spread all over
>>>the Earth, a global transportation system to bring those resources to
>>>processing centers to make raw stock and transportation to fabricating
>>>centers to make finished goods.
>>>
>>
>> Jim needs to learn more about just what it takes to survive on Mars.
>> Air and water aren't that difficult. Jim ignores any evidence that
>> disagrees with his preconceptions. All it really takes for SURVIVAL
>> on Mars is power, which is not that hard to bootstrap. Yes, you have
>> to bring in some 'starter' resources. This shouldn't be any surprise
>> to anyone, but seems to astound Jim and leave him with the view that
>> that somehow makes colonization impossible.
>
>Power gives you some air and water, but it is not a magic bullet if
>talking about a large, growing colony as opposed to a research station
>with limited needs.
>
And we're from 'survival' to "living in a rich suburb" as your
criterion for 'colony'.
>
>For example, it has been said there is frozen water below the Martian
>surface so all that needs to be done is dig it up and melt it.
>
"It has been said" because we've touched it. So you can replace your
"it has been said" with "there is".
>
>That is all well and good until you have dug up all the ice in the
>area, which unlike a flowing river, does not replenish itself quickly.
>
Apparently there is free flowing water on Mars periodically, so it
would seem you might be mistaken in this assertion. Even if it moves
as poorly as possible, I'm left with a big 'so what?' as my response.
Ever hear of these things called 'pipes'?
>>>It is unlikely that resource distribution is any different on Mars than
>>>it is on Earth, other than the complete lack of hydrocarbon sources such
>>>as petroleum. coal, and natural gas.
>>>
>>
>> Incorrect. Most Martian minerals are oxides of some sort, which makes
>> getting oxygen not all that difficult. There is lots of available
>> water, which makes that simple as well as acting as another potential
>> source of oxygen.
>
>The point was those resources, just like the Earth, are most likely
>spread all over the planet and not all in one nice neat place.
>
That's why you pick your spot(s) instead of just plopping your ass
down in Joe Random Crater. The oxides are pretty much everywhere.
Ditto power. So you locate near a lot of water.
>
>The resources needed to support 21st century technology consists of
>most all of the first 98 elements of the periodic table.
>
Both false and irrelevant. Irrelevant because you have now not
talking about 'self-sufficient' survival anymore, but totally import
free. By that measure, there aren't any successful colonies in North
America yet; they're still importing.
>>>
>>>Until such global transportation and manufacturing abilities exist on
>>>Mars, the only way a Martian colony could expand, or even maintain
>>>the technology, to eventually become self sustaining is to import parts
>>>and finished goods from Earth. Note that we are talking about real
>>>technology like computers, enviromental controllers, motors with rare
>>>earth parts, etc., but even 20th century technology such as sheet
>>>aluminimum, all the alloys of steel, and plastics will take a long
>>>time.
>>>
>>
>> Note that Jim is wrong here. He imposes an unnecessary 'requirement'
>> and then complains that because it cannot be met that colonization is
>> impossible.
>
>See above and the number of elements needed to support 21st century
>technology.
>
See above and that you're on your ass.
>>>If it is actually a colony with life time residents and kids, after not
>>>too many years the population increases from Martian births and the
>>>technology gets older and more prone to failure and the need for supplies
>>>to maintain and expand infrastructure increases on the high end tech stuff.
>>>
>>
>> Just like every other colony on Earth. Life at the top requires
>> imports. Life at the bottom, not so much.
>
>An expanding colony requires expanding resources and repair parts that
>can not be supplied locally until you have a global colony as described
>above.
>
Poppycock! That's only true if your definition of 'colony' is now
"rich suburb in Connecticut".
>>>Someone has to pay for the acquisition and transport of the parts and
>>>goods to Mars.
>>>
>>>There are two ways to pay that bill:
>>>
>>>1. Gifts from Earth, i.e tax money.
>>>
>>>2. Profit from Martian exports.
>>>
>>
>> Note that English colonies in North America could not 'pay that bill',
>> either. Also note that Jim is rather unimaginative with regard to how
>> a Mars civilization could 'make money' and just ignores anything that
>> doesn't fit his "shipping rocks" mind set for 'products'.
>
>Note that the requirements to survive in a 16th century world
>are entirely different than the requirements to survive on Mars.
>
Note that 'high tech imports required' is 'high tech imports
required', whether one is talking 'high tech' in the 16th century or
high tech in the 21st century. That's why we're just getting around
to Mars. DOH!
>
>And no matter how you try to evade it, someone has to pay for it.
>
And no matter how you try to deny it, lots of models to do that have
been offered.
>>>Given that maintaining even a small colony will cost billions of dollars,
>>>and expanding it planet wide untold trillions of dollars, it is unlikely
>>>to be payed for from gifts.
>>>
>>>There is no resource on Mars that has enough profit in exporting it to
>>>Earth to generate those untold trillions of dollars so exports are out
>>>also.
>>>
>>>If someone thinks otherwise, name that good.
>>>
>>
>> Note that I've already done that for him. He just doesn't like that
>> there is an answer, so he ignores it.
>
>Nope, you arm waved about telecommunications and software.
>
So you insist on something at the level of predicting Microsoft and
Apple in 1940? Now you're just being silly.
>> Most of those 'untold trillions' are largely in 'internal to Mars'
>> money and thus are unrelated to his 'shipping rocks'. Ask yourself
>> how the American West was settled.
>
>Nope, again we are talking about the trillions in stuff that has to be
>acquired on Earth and shipped to Mars to maintain and expand the colooy.
>
Yep, largely 'internal Mars' money.
>
>The American West was settled by farmers in horse drawn wagons with
>hand tools and sacks of seed, which is hardly relevant to Mars.
>
Do you not know shit about the settlement of the American West,
either? Go read up on covered wagons.
>>>The model for initial financing by charging the colonists for transport
>>>would get things started but as the rate of colony population grows
>>>and the number of people wanting to go to Mars decreases you quickly
>>>find that that is a Ponzi scheme in the long run.
>>>
>>
>> I'll just note that for some reason Jim thinks that Mars colonization
>> will attract people in exactly the reverse of every other colonization
>> in the history of the human race. The number of people wanting to
>> colonize doesn't decrease over time. As a colony grows interest in
>> colonization by those at home INCREASES. Colonization is easier
>> because more infrastructure is present and it's just 'easier' to go to
>> the colony. Costs are lower with time, both in transport and in the
>> supplies you have to bring.
>
>So where do sign up so I can take my horse drawn wagon accross the
>Martian plains and settle in a nice spot near a stream, build a log
>cabin and plant my crops?
>
I think it would be more useful to you to suggest a place where you
can take your head and your ass and get them separated from each
other.
--
"You take the lies out of him, and he'll shrink to the size of
your hat; you take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear."
-- Mark Twain
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-14 03:22 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <tve3uc-vkr.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #58296 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: >>> >>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>Nothing. >>>> >>>>The pre-Columbian Americas had a population estimated by scholars of >>>>somewhere beteen 50 million and 100 million people. >>>> >>> >>> And then they died, so survival is not the dead cinch that the chimp >>> insists it is. >> >>80% to 90% from European diseases, so apparently it was before the >>Europeans showed up. >> > > Most of that postulated number died before they ever met a European. Nope. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2sx6h9/whats_the_current_scholarly_consensus_of/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas http://www2.nau.edu/~alcoze/for398/class/pristinemyth.html > >>>> >>>>The technology level of the more advanced civilizations was roughly >>>>equivelant to the Bronze Age in Europe and iron pre-Columbian arifacts >>>>have been found indicating they were on the leading edge of the Iron Age. >>>> >>> >>> Yes and no. There was ONE culture that developed bronze age >>> technology but underused it (mostly for decoration, so the color was >>> more important than the quality of the metallurgy). That gradually >>> spread, was lost, spread again. >>> >>> Iron Age? No. >> >>Edge of Iron Age, yes. >> > > No, being bronze age with limited tool use is not "edge of Iron Age". But using iron tools is. >>>> >>>>Thses peoples and civilizations existed for thousands of years before >>>>any European arrived. >>>> >>>>Therefore it is obvious that support from Europe is not needed to be able >>>>to survive and thrive in the Americas. >>>> >>> >>> After you've had thousands of years. Again, most inhabitants of the >>> new world were right at the edge of survival. Jim never explains why >>> so many cultures and colonies died. >> >>The time it took to happen is irrelevant, it happened. >> > > The time it took to happen is very relevant. Give a Mars colony the > same amount of time... Nope; the time it took inidiginous peoples in the Americas to get to bronze age technology has nothing to do with anything on Mars. >>0% to 90% of the indiginous people died from European diseases for which >>they had zero immunity. >> > > So survival wasn't so easy after all. Sure it was until disease carrying Europeans showed up. 50 million to 100 million people and growing. None of which has anything to do with Mars. >> >>And as I have said several times before, the Europeans mostly died of >>stupidity; chasing non-existant gold, disease, not tending to crops, >>poor site planning, fighting with the indiginous people, fighting >>with other political entities. >> > > You can repeat incorrect things as frequently as you like. Repetition > doesn't make them correct. You can deny the truth as frequently as you like. Repetition doesn't make it so. >>>>Mars on the other hand requires 21st century technology to survive for >>>>longer than about 5 seconds, i.e. the time of useful consciousness at >>>>the pressure on the surface of Mars. The pressure is so low it is below >>>>the Armstrong limit which means the human body requires a pressure suit, >>>>not just an oxygen mask. >>>> >>>>Comparing colonization on Mars to colonization of the Americas is mostly >>>>pointless on that fact alone and becomes entirely so when the complete >>>>lack of available drinking water and food sources is concidered. >>>> >>> >>> Yet Jim insists on those comparisons. Then when it doesn't go as he >>> wants it is suddenly irrelevant. >> >>Nope, I never insisted on comparing colonization of Mars to colononization >>of the Americas, that was you. >> > > Liar. You're the one constantly nattering on about how you can "drop > people naked in colonies on Earth and they survive". Yes, Earth. Earth with air, food, and water. If survival on Earth is so difficult, how did cave man survive? >> >>I actually think that comparison is childish, stupdid, and ignorant >>of reality. >> > > Then why do you keep bringing it up? See above. Hint: Earth with food, air and water. >>>> >>>>21st century technology rquires global resources that are spread all over >>>>the Earth, a global transportation system to bring those resources to >>>>processing centers to make raw stock and transportation to fabricating >>>>centers to make finished goods. >>>> >>> >>> Jim needs to learn more about just what it takes to survive on Mars. >>> Air and water aren't that difficult. Jim ignores any evidence that >>> disagrees with his preconceptions. All it really takes for SURVIVAL >>> on Mars is power, which is not that hard to bootstrap. Yes, you have >>> to bring in some 'starter' resources. This shouldn't be any surprise >>> to anyone, but seems to astound Jim and leave him with the view that >>> that somehow makes colonization impossible. >> >>Power gives you some air and water, but it is not a magic bullet if >>talking about a large, growing colony as opposed to a research station >>with limited needs. >> > > And we're from 'survival' to "living in a rich suburb" as your > criterion for 'colony'. I never said anything about a rich suburb, those are your words. I have ALWAYS been talking about basic survival. >>For example, it has been said there is frozen water below the Martian >>surface so all that needs to be done is dig it up and melt it. >> > > "It has been said" because we've touched it. So you can replace your > "it has been said" with "there is". Fine, there is ice buried on Mars. >> >>That is all well and good until you have dug up all the ice in the >>area, which unlike a flowing river, does not replenish itself quickly. >> > > Apparently there is free flowing water on Mars periodically, so it > would seem you might be mistaken in this assertion. Even if it moves > as poorly as possible, I'm left with a big 'so what?' as my response. > Ever hear of these things called 'pipes'? Yep, and they work just fine with liquid water and not pipes. There are definitely no rivers or creeks on Mars. Unless the ice replenishes itself faster than you use it, you have to go somewhere else for more ice. That kind of works against having a large colony buried in the ground. >>>>It is unlikely that resource distribution is any different on Mars than >>>>it is on Earth, other than the complete lack of hydrocarbon sources such >>>>as petroleum. coal, and natural gas. >>>> >>> >>> Incorrect. Most Martian minerals are oxides of some sort, which makes >>> getting oxygen not all that difficult. There is lots of available >>> water, which makes that simple as well as acting as another potential >>> source of oxygen. >> >>The point was those resources, just like the Earth, are most likely >>spread all over the planet and not all in one nice neat place. >> > > That's why you pick your spot(s) instead of just plopping your ass > down in Joe Random Crater. The oxides are pretty much everywhere. > Ditto power. So you locate near a lot of water. Yes, I'm sure all 98 elements are pretty much everywhere. It is not that was on Earth and highly unlikely to be on Mars. >>The resources needed to support 21st century technology consists of >>most all of the first 98 elements of the periodic table. >> > > Both false and irrelevant. Irrelevant because you have now not > talking about 'self-sufficient' survival anymore, but totally import > free. By that measure, there aren't any successful colonies in North > America yet; they're still importing. Self sufficient survival means not being dependent on imports to survive. And guess what, 21st century technology couldn't exist on Earth without imports either, just that we don't have to import it from somewhere off the planet nor do we absolutely need it to survive. >>>> >>>>Until such global transportation and manufacturing abilities exist on >>>>Mars, the only way a Martian colony could expand, or even maintain >>>>the technology, to eventually become self sustaining is to import parts >>>>and finished goods from Earth. Note that we are talking about real >>>>technology like computers, enviromental controllers, motors with rare >>>>earth parts, etc., but even 20th century technology such as sheet >>>>aluminimum, all the alloys of steel, and plastics will take a long >>>>time. >>>> >>> >>> Note that Jim is wrong here. He imposes an unnecessary 'requirement' >>> and then complains that because it cannot be met that colonization is >>> impossible. >> >>See above and the number of elements needed to support 21st century >>technology. >> > > See above and that you're on your ass. No matter how many times you deny the truth, it is still the truth. Make a list on uneeded elements if you are so sure. >>>>If it is actually a colony with life time residents and kids, after not >>>>too many years the population increases from Martian births and the >>>>technology gets older and more prone to failure and the need for supplies >>>>to maintain and expand infrastructure increases on the high end tech stuff. >>>> >>> >>> Just like every other colony on Earth. Life at the top requires >>> imports. Life at the bottom, not so much. >> >>An expanding colony requires expanding resources and repair parts that >>can not be supplied locally until you have a global colony as described >>above. >> > > Poppycock! That's only true if your definition of 'colony' is now > "rich suburb in Connecticut". So if there are more people they don't need more equipment and old equipment does not wear out and break? >>>>Someone has to pay for the acquisition and transport of the parts and >>>>goods to Mars. >>>> >>>>There are two ways to pay that bill: >>>> >>>>1. Gifts from Earth, i.e tax money. >>>> >>>>2. Profit from Martian exports. >>>> >>> >>> Note that English colonies in North America could not 'pay that bill', >>> either. Also note that Jim is rather unimaginative with regard to how >>> a Mars civilization could 'make money' and just ignores anything that >>> doesn't fit his "shipping rocks" mind set for 'products'. >> >>Note that the requirements to survive in a 16th century world >>are entirely different than the requirements to survive on Mars. >> > > Note that 'high tech imports required' is 'high tech imports > required', whether one is talking 'high tech' in the 16th century or > high tech in the 21st century. That's why we're just getting around > to Mars. DOH! Note that you are evading the issue that someone has to pay for stuff. >> >>And no matter how you try to evade it, someone has to pay for it. >> > > And no matter how you try to deny it, lots of models to do that have > been offered. And you have still offered nothing more than some rediculous arm waving about telecommunications and maybe programming from Mars. >>>>Given that maintaining even a small colony will cost billions of dollars, >>>>and expanding it planet wide untold trillions of dollars, it is unlikely >>>>to be payed for from gifts. >>>> >>>>There is no resource on Mars that has enough profit in exporting it to >>>>Earth to generate those untold trillions of dollars so exports are out >>>>also. >>>> >>>>If someone thinks otherwise, name that good. >>>> >>> >>> Note that I've already done that for him. He just doesn't like that >>> there is an answer, so he ignores it. >> >>Nope, you arm waved about telecommunications and software. >> > > So you insist on something at the level of predicting Microsoft and > Apple in 1940? Now you're just being silly. Nope, something worth importing from Mars in the near decades. >>> Most of those 'untold trillions' are largely in 'internal to Mars' >>> money and thus are unrelated to his 'shipping rocks'. Ask yourself >>> how the American West was settled. >> >>Nope, again we are talking about the trillions in stuff that has to be >>acquired on Earth and shipped to Mars to maintain and expand the colooy. >> > > Yep, largely 'internal Mars' money. Nope, has to be spent on Earth for acquistion on Earth and shipping from Earth. >> >>The American West was settled by farmers in horse drawn wagons with >>hand tools and sacks of seed, which is hardly relevant to Mars. >> > > Do you not know shit about the settlement of the American West, > either? Go read up on covered wagons. Yes, and the American West is pretty irelevant to Mars. Establish a new family on Earth: Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds. Find a nice spot near lumber and water sources. Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, dig a hole and build an outhouse. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one. While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens. If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends. Establish a new community on Earth: Do several of the above and include some trademen like blacksmiths, carpenters, and wheelwrights to form the town. Establsh a new family on Mars: Haul in a huge pile of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen and water and repair parts by some means. Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure. Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers. Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system. Install heating system. Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system. Install power system to run it all. Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue. Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the structure tanks. Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power, water, and oxygen system. Plant seeds. While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought with you. Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part. Establish a new community on Mars: Do above N number of times. -- Jim Pennino
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-13 21:39 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <fl5ugb1qsv445j6sqklkerca8e8krp5e5v@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #58304 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>
>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>>The pre-Columbian Americas had a population estimated by scholars of
>>>>>somewhere beteen 50 million and 100 million people.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And then they died, so survival is not the dead cinch that the chimp
>>>> insists it is.
>>>
>>>80% to 90% from European diseases, so apparently it was before the
>>>Europeans showed up.
>>>
>>
>> Most of that postulated number died before they ever met a European.
>
>Nope.
>
Yep. Europeans never saw anywhere near that number of indigenes.
>
>https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2sx6h9/whats_the_current_scholarly_consensus_of/
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas
>
>http://www2.nau.edu/~alcoze/for398/class/pristinemyth.html
>
Note that none of those say anything at all with regard to all the
folks who died having MET Europeans. Europeans are frequently
postulated as the source of disease that led to the die off, but even
that isn't proven. As Europeans explored the Americas they were
amazed at the scarcity of population. Most of those who died did so
without ever having seen a European.
>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The technology level of the more advanced civilizations was roughly
>>>>>equivelant to the Bronze Age in Europe and iron pre-Columbian arifacts
>>>>>have been found indicating they were on the leading edge of the Iron Age.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes and no. There was ONE culture that developed bronze age
>>>> technology but underused it (mostly for decoration, so the color was
>>>> more important than the quality of the metallurgy). That gradually
>>>> spread, was lost, spread again.
>>>>
>>>> Iron Age? No.
>>>
>>>Edge of Iron Age, yes.
>>>
>>
>> No, being bronze age with limited tool use is not "edge of Iron Age".
>>
>
>But using iron tools is.
>
Cite your evidence for people using iron tools. The only iron tools
I'm aware of being found in the Americas were some up in the Northwest
part of North America and they are believed to have come from Asia.
They barely used bronze tools, viewing bronze as decorative. Most
tools were copper, stone, bone, or wood.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thses peoples and civilizations existed for thousands of years before
>>>>>any European arrived.
>>>>>
>>>>>Therefore it is obvious that support from Europe is not needed to be able
>>>>>to survive and thrive in the Americas.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> After you've had thousands of years. Again, most inhabitants of the
>>>> new world were right at the edge of survival. Jim never explains why
>>>> so many cultures and colonies died.
>>>
>>>The time it took to happen is irrelevant, it happened.
>>>
>>
>> The time it took to happen is very relevant. Give a Mars colony the
>> same amount of time...
>
>Nope; the time it took inidiginous peoples in the Americas to get to
>bronze age technology has nothing to do with anything on Mars.
>
You keep asserting that the presence of these people and their level
of development are clear demonstrations that you could drop people
here 'naked and unafraid' and they would survive. Now that the flaws
in your 'logic' are pointed out, it's suddenly got "nothing to do with
anything on Mars".
Typical chimp.
>
>>>0% to 90% of the indiginous people died from European diseases for which
>>>they had zero immunity.
>>>
>>
>> So survival wasn't so easy after all.
>
>Sure it was until disease carrying Europeans showed up.
>
>50 million to 100 million people and growing.
>
And no proof of what killed them.
>
>None of which has anything to do with Mars.
>
Then why do you keep bringing it up?
>>>
>>>And as I have said several times before, the Europeans mostly died of
>>>stupidity; chasing non-existant gold, disease, not tending to crops,
>>>poor site planning, fighting with the indiginous people, fighting
>>>with other political entities.
>>>
>>
>> You can repeat incorrect things as frequently as you like. Repetition
>> doesn't make them correct.
>
>You can deny the truth as frequently as you like. Repetition doesn't make
>it so.
>
You can repeat incorrect things as frequently as you like. Repetition
doesn't make them correct.
>>>>>Mars on the other hand requires 21st century technology to survive for
>>>>>longer than about 5 seconds, i.e. the time of useful consciousness at
>>>>>the pressure on the surface of Mars. The pressure is so low it is below
>>>>>the Armstrong limit which means the human body requires a pressure suit,
>>>>>not just an oxygen mask.
>>>>>
>>>>>Comparing colonization on Mars to colonization of the Americas is mostly
>>>>>pointless on that fact alone and becomes entirely so when the complete
>>>>>lack of available drinking water and food sources is concidered.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yet Jim insists on those comparisons. Then when it doesn't go as he
>>>> wants it is suddenly irrelevant.
>>>
>>>Nope, I never insisted on comparing colonization of Mars to colononization
>>>of the Americas, that was you.
>>>
>>
>> Liar. You're the one constantly nattering on about how you can "drop
>> people naked in colonies on Earth and they survive".
>>
>
>Yes, Earth. Earth with air, food, and water.
>
>If survival on Earth is so difficult, how did cave man survive?
>
But you insist that's all irrelevant anyway. Cave men largely did not
survive. "Nasty, brutish, and short" is your measuring stick there.
Why did all those subfamilies of hominid die out if survival is so
easy?
>>>
>>>I actually think that comparison is childish, stupdid, and ignorant
>>>of reality.
>>>
>>
>> Then why do you keep bringing it up?
>
>See above.
>
>Hint: Earth with food, air and water.
>
Hint: Mars can easily have those, too.
>>>>>
>>>>>21st century technology rquires global resources that are spread all over
>>>>>the Earth, a global transportation system to bring those resources to
>>>>>processing centers to make raw stock and transportation to fabricating
>>>>>centers to make finished goods.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jim needs to learn more about just what it takes to survive on Mars.
>>>> Air and water aren't that difficult. Jim ignores any evidence that
>>>> disagrees with his preconceptions. All it really takes for SURVIVAL
>>>> on Mars is power, which is not that hard to bootstrap. Yes, you have
>>>> to bring in some 'starter' resources. This shouldn't be any surprise
>>>> to anyone, but seems to astound Jim and leave him with the view that
>>>> that somehow makes colonization impossible.
>>>
>>>Power gives you some air and water, but it is not a magic bullet if
>>>talking about a large, growing colony as opposed to a research station
>>>with limited needs.
>>>
>>
>> And we're from 'survival' to "living in a rich suburb" as your
>> criterion for 'colony'.
>
>I never said anything about a rich suburb, those are your words.
>
But every time you want to obstruct you insist that all of modern
technology must exist on Mars to satisfy your definition of 'colony'
and 'survival'.
>
>I have ALWAYS been talking about basic survival.
>
Then your claims about what is needed are unadulterated bullshit.
>>>For example, it has been said there is frozen water below the Martian
>>>surface so all that needs to be done is dig it up and melt it.
>>>
>>
>> "It has been said" because we've touched it. So you can replace your
>> "it has been said" with "there is".
>
>Fine, there is ice buried on Mars.
>
And not very deeply, either.
>>>
>>>That is all well and good until you have dug up all the ice in the
>>>area, which unlike a flowing river, does not replenish itself quickly.
>>>
>>
>> Apparently there is free flowing water on Mars periodically, so it
>> would seem you might be mistaken in this assertion. Even if it moves
>> as poorly as possible, I'm left with a big 'so what?' as my response.
>> Ever hear of these things called 'pipes'?
>
>Yep, and they work just fine with liquid water and not pipes.
>
>There are definitely no rivers or creeks on Mars.
>
>Unless the ice replenishes itself faster than you use it, you have to
>go somewhere else for more ice.
>
>That kind of works against having a large colony buried in the ground.
>
That rather depends on how much ice there is. Every indication is
that there's lots.
http://astronomynow.com/2015/04/08/mars-has-belts-of-glaciers-composed-of-water-ice/
>>>>>It is unlikely that resource distribution is any different on Mars than
>>>>>it is on Earth, other than the complete lack of hydrocarbon sources such
>>>>>as petroleum. coal, and natural gas.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Incorrect. Most Martian minerals are oxides of some sort, which makes
>>>> getting oxygen not all that difficult. There is lots of available
>>>> water, which makes that simple as well as acting as another potential
>>>> source of oxygen.
>>>
>>>The point was those resources, just like the Earth, are most likely
>>>spread all over the planet and not all in one nice neat place.
>>>
>>
>> That's why you pick your spot(s) instead of just plopping your ass
>> down in Joe Random Crater. The oxides are pretty much everywhere.
>> Ditto power. So you locate near a lot of water.
>
>Yes, I'm sure all 98 elements are pretty much everywhere.
>
Irrelevant in any case, since they're not needed.
>
>It is not that was on Earth and highly unlikely to be on Mars.
>
Uh, what?
>>>The resources needed to support 21st century technology consists of
>>>most all of the first 98 elements of the periodic table.
>>>
>>
>> Both false and irrelevant. Irrelevant because you have now not
>> talking about 'self-sufficient' survival anymore, but totally import
>> free. By that measure, there aren't any successful colonies in North
>> America yet; they're still importing.
>
>Self sufficient survival means not being dependent on imports to survive.
>
And that's not that hard, even on Mars. Yeah, you need imports to
bootstrap from. So what?
>
>And guess what, 21st century technology couldn't exist on Earth without
>imports either, just that we don't have to import it from somewhere off
>the planet nor do we absolutely need it to survive.
>
So all your caterwauling about needing all that 21st century
technology in order to survive on Mars is just bullshit, then.
>>>>>
>>>>>Until such global transportation and manufacturing abilities exist on
>>>>>Mars, the only way a Martian colony could expand, or even maintain
>>>>>the technology, to eventually become self sustaining is to import parts
>>>>>and finished goods from Earth. Note that we are talking about real
>>>>>technology like computers, enviromental controllers, motors with rare
>>>>>earth parts, etc., but even 20th century technology such as sheet
>>>>>aluminimum, all the alloys of steel, and plastics will take a long
>>>>>time.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note that Jim is wrong here. He imposes an unnecessary 'requirement'
>>>> and then complains that because it cannot be met that colonization is
>>>> impossible.
>>>
>>>See above and the number of elements needed to support 21st century
>>>technology.
>>>
>>
>> See above and that you're on your ass.
>>
>
>No matter how many times you deny the truth, it is still the truth.
>
If you'll stop changing your definitions.
>
>Make a list on uneeded elements if you are so sure.
>
For SURVIVAL? You don't need most of them.
>>>>>If it is actually a colony with life time residents and kids, after not
>>>>>too many years the population increases from Martian births and the
>>>>>technology gets older and more prone to failure and the need for supplies
>>>>>to maintain and expand infrastructure increases on the high end tech stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just like every other colony on Earth. Life at the top requires
>>>> imports. Life at the bottom, not so much.
>>>
>>>An expanding colony requires expanding resources and repair parts that
>>>can not be supplied locally until you have a global colony as described
>>>above.
>>>
>>
>> Poppycock! That's only true if your definition of 'colony' is now
>> "rich suburb in Connecticut".
>
>So if there are more people they don't need more equipment and old
>equipment does not wear out and break?
>
For SURVIVAL? That equipment becomes manufactured from in situ
resources. For a rich suburb in Connecticut, yeah, you'd have a
problem.
>>>>>Someone has to pay for the acquisition and transport of the parts and
>>>>>goods to Mars.
>>>>>
>>>>>There are two ways to pay that bill:
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Gifts from Earth, i.e tax money.
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Profit from Martian exports.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note that English colonies in North America could not 'pay that bill',
>>>> either. Also note that Jim is rather unimaginative with regard to how
>>>> a Mars civilization could 'make money' and just ignores anything that
>>>> doesn't fit his "shipping rocks" mind set for 'products'.
>>>
>>>Note that the requirements to survive in a 16th century world
>>>are entirely different than the requirements to survive on Mars.
>>>
>>
>> Note that 'high tech imports required' is 'high tech imports
>> required', whether one is talking 'high tech' in the 16th century or
>> high tech in the 21st century. That's why we're just getting around
>> to Mars. DOH!
>>
>
>Note that you are evading the issue that someone has to pay for stuff.
>
Note that you're once again lying with your old whinge of someone
"avoiding the issue".
>>>
>>>And no matter how you try to evade it, someone has to pay for it.
>>>
>>
>> And no matter how you try to deny it, lots of models to do that have
>> been offered.
>
>And you have still offered nothing more than some rediculous arm waving
>about telecommunications and maybe programming from Mars.
>
And you still have shown yourself unable to think outside the confines
of your own duodenum.
>>>>>Given that maintaining even a small colony will cost billions of dollars,
>>>>>and expanding it planet wide untold trillions of dollars, it is unlikely
>>>>>to be payed for from gifts.
>>>>>
>>>>>There is no resource on Mars that has enough profit in exporting it to
>>>>>Earth to generate those untold trillions of dollars so exports are out
>>>>>also.
>>>>>
>>>>>If someone thinks otherwise, name that good.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note that I've already done that for him. He just doesn't like that
>>>> there is an answer, so he ignores it.
>>>
>>>Nope, you arm waved about telecommunications and software.
>>>
>>
>> So you insist on something at the level of predicting Microsoft and
>> Apple in 1940? Now you're just being silly.
>
>Nope, something worth importing from Mars in the near decades.
>
You won't have a colony that is economically self-supporting in the
'near decades' any more than any other colony has been. It appears
Jim is back to his demands for an 'instant colony' that is born
self-sufficient.
>>>> Most of those 'untold trillions' are largely in 'internal to Mars'
>>>> money and thus are unrelated to his 'shipping rocks'. Ask yourself
>>>> how the American West was settled.
>>>
>>>Nope, again we are talking about the trillions in stuff that has to be
>>>acquired on Earth and shipped to Mars to maintain and expand the colooy.
>>>
>>
>> Yep, largely 'internal Mars' money.
>
>Nope, has to be spent on Earth for acquistion on Earth and shipping
>from Earth.
>
Name those items. Try not to list stupid and trivial shit like
diapers. We're talking about SURVIVAL now, right, and not a rich
suburb in Connecticut.
>>>
>>>The American West was settled by farmers in horse drawn wagons with
>>>hand tools and sacks of seed, which is hardly relevant to Mars.
>>>
>>
>> Do you not know shit about the settlement of the American West,
>> either? Go read up on covered wagons.
>
>Yes, and the American West is pretty irelevant to Mars.
>
But I'm sure you'll argue it anyway. It's who you are.
>
>Establish a new family on Earth:
>
>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial
>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds.
>
OK, so you need sophisticated transport (look at what one of those
wagons cost), the best tools and technology you can afford carried
with you, lots of interim supplies, fittings to be able to put
together machines you'll need, etc. Just like Mars.
>
>Find a nice spot near lumber and water sources.
>
Find a place near resources you need. Same as Mars.
>
>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have
>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, dig a hole and build
>an outhouse. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one.
>
Establish food source. Establish living space. Establish water
source. Just like Mars.
>
>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and
>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens.
>
Eat your food concentrates while you wait for your food production to
kick in. Same as Mars.
>
>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends.
>
Well, that one doesn't apply to Mars, right enough.
>
>Establish a new community on Earth:
>
>Do several of the above and include some trademen like blacksmiths,
>carpenters, and wheelwrights to form the town.
>
Just like Mars.
<snip>
So your objection is that it takes modern technology now, just like it
took modern technology then (modern having moved with the years).
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-14 18:01 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <5h25uc-nl3.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #58311 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed by European diseseses. Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part. Establish a new family on Earth: Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds. Find a nice spot near tree and water sources. Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the wagon until the cabin is built. Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one. While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens. If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends. All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand years old. All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood. The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot. Establsh a new family on Mars: Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water and repair parts by some means. While working in pressure suits... Install power system. Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure. Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers. Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system. Install heating system. Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system. Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue. Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the structure tanks. Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power, water, and oxygen system. Plant seeds. While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought with you. Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part. The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century. Everything you have is made by machines in factories. The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all over the Earth. Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea, Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg. The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils. -- Jim Pennino
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-14 13:39 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ubvvgb1ro4oss8rbeqtkhe1gtsdgdhugde@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #58322 |
jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most
>of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of
>all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population
>of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed
>by European diseseses.
>
So you noticed your own delusions.
>
>Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part.
>
You mean the biased part that misstates things?
>Establish a new family on Earth:
>
Already responded to this part, but I'll add one addition.
>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial
>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds.
>
>Find a nice spot near tree and water sources.
>
>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have
>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the
>wagon until the cabin is built.
>
>Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods
>to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one.
>
>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and
>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens.
>
And probably starve to death if that's your mechanism rather than
having supplies on hand.
>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends.
>
>All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand
>years old.
>
>All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood.
>
Except for all the essential tools, which were high tech items in the
day.
>The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot.
>
>
>
>Establsh a new family on Mars:
>
Which won't be done at all the way it was done on Earth, with one
individual going off by themselves. Now that I've pointed that out,
you'll claim that Earth colonization doesn't matter and that bringing
it up is stupid.
>
>Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water
>and repair parts by some means.
>
>While working in pressure suits...
>
>Install power system.
>
Self-contained. No 'installation' required.
>
>Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure.
>
In other words, 'dig a hole'.
All of the following is pretty much also self-contained and automated,
so all your 'install' and 'set up' is pretty much non-existent.
>
>Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers.
>
>Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system.
>
>Install heating system.
>
>Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system.
>
>Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue.
>
>Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the
>structure tanks.
>
So to this point your 'install' and 'set up' amounts to plugging in
some power and water conduits.
What follows only applies if you intend to farm. Jim may not be
aware, but we've moved away from agrarian societies over the last
several centuries.
>
>Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power,
>water, and oxygen system.
>
>Plant seeds.
>
>While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought
>with you.
>
>Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part.
>
>The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century.
>
>Everything you have is made by machines in factories.
>
>The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all
>over the Earth.
>
>Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea,
>Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg.
>
>The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils.
>
You can't cook in cast iron anymore? Wow, who knew?
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
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| From | jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-14 22:24 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <1th5uc-r65.ln1@mail.specsol.com> |
| In reply to | #58331 |
In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: > jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote: > >>In sci.physics Fred J. McCall <fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>At first I was going to respond to the whole thing then I realized most >>of it was idiocy like not knowing how disease spreads and denial of >>all the scholarly work that says there was a pre-columbian population >>of 50 million to 100 million, 80 o 90 percent of which were killed >>by European diseseses. >> > > So you noticed your own delusions. No, I quoted three scholarly sources, all of which said essentially the same thing. >> >>Then I noticed you snipped the important part, so I'll just repost that part. >> > > You mean the biased part that misstates things? I know a realist description bothers you space cadet. > >>Establish a new family on Earth: >> > > Already responded to this part, but I'll add one addition. > >>Load the horse drawn wagon the the wife, kids, hand tools, initial >>provisions for the trip, some caged chickens and a sack of seeds. >> >>Find a nice spot near tree and water sources. >> >>Plant seeds, cut timber to build cabin,d dig a well so as to not have >>to walk as far to get water, build a chicken coop, take shelter in the >>wagon until the cabin is built. >> >>Dig a hole and build an outhouse so you don't have to walk to the woods >>to take a dump. If you forgot to bring a plow, make a wooden one. >> >>While waiting for the first crop, forage for wild vegetables, fish, and >>hunt game and eat some of the eggs from the chickens. >> > > And probably starve to death if that's your mechanism rather than > having supplies on hand. What part of forage for wild vegetables, fish, and hunt game did you not understand? >>If you see any Indians, don't piss them off; try to make friends. >> >>All of the tecnonology, other than firearms, is well over a thousand >>years old. >> >>All the stuff you have is hand made and most of it is made of wood. >> > > Except for all the essential tools, which were high tech items in the > day. Nope, the axe, saw, plow, etc. are very, very old technology. >>The item with the most technology in it is a cast iron cooking pot. >> >> >> >>Establsh a new family on Mars: >> > > Which won't be done at all the way it was done on Earth, with one > individual going off by themselves. Now that I've pointed that out, > you'll claim that Earth colonization doesn't matter and that bringing > it up is stupid. It was usually groups that went off together, but upon arrival, everything I have said is accurate. And the title was "Establish a new family on Earth". >> >>Haul in many tons of technology, materials, tools, food, oxygen, water >>and repair parts by some means. >> >>While working in pressure suits... >> >>Install power system. >> > > Self-contained. No 'installation' required. So it it going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then connect itself, no assembly required? >> >>Put up a radiation sheilded structure or bury a non-shielded staructure. >> > > In other words, 'dig a hole'. Yes, a very big hole, put your shelter in in, and cover it up, all while in a pressure suit. > All of the following is pretty much also self-contained and automated, > so all your 'install' and 'set up' is pretty much non-existent. Utter nonsense. None that stuff is going to get out of the transport vehicle, site itself, then connect itself, no assembly required. >> >>Install pressurization system with oxygen tanks and CO2 scrubbers. >> >>Install water tanks and plumbing system with toilets and refuse system. >> >>Install heating system. >> >>Install water recyling system and refuse to fertilizer system. >> >>Set up system to generate oxygen from rocks and pipe it into the structue. >> >>Set up system to mine ice, melt it, purify it, and pipe it into the >>structure tanks. >> > > So to this point your 'install' and 'set up' amounts to plugging in > some power and water conduits. Site leveling, movement, and connections at the minimum assuming everything is pre assembled, all while in a pressure suit. > > What follows only applies if you intend to farm. Jim may not be > aware, but we've moved away from agrarian societies over the last > several centuries. The space cadet may not be aware, but we moved away from agrarian societies at the end of the 19th century when farm machinery was invented and farming became much less labor intensive. The space cadet may not be aware, but the priorities on Mars would be to ensure a constant supply of air, water, and food, in that order. >> >>Set up pressurized environment to grow food and connect to the power, >>water, and oxygen system. >> >>Plant seeds. >> >>While waiting for the first crop, eat the tons of provisions you brought >>with you. >> >>Prey nothing breaks and if it does that you have a repair part. >> >>The oldest technology you have is mid 20th century. >> >>Everything you have is made by machines in factories. >> >>The raw materials for the things you have had to be gathered from all >>over the Earth. >> >>Aluminum, for example, comes from Australia, Brazil, China, India, Guinea, >>Indonesia, Jamaica, Russia and Suriname, but not Pittsburg. >> >>The lowest technology items you have are your aluminum alloy cooking utensils. >> > > You can't cook in cast iron anymore? Wow, who knew? Sure you can, but only an idiot would chose cast iron over aluminum for Mars if for no other reason than the weight penalty. -- Jim Pennino
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