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Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin?

Organization Usenet.Farm
From "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com>
References (7 earlier) <4l8ir4l8g5jo0nhpcg9n9jopku54coujrt@4ax.com> <2d1a713b-e466-42a5-af07-dd09fe9d49b7@e18g2000yqo.googlegroups.com> <2m7mr4lcd8pbggso5rmc5mcv8vo65p7ga9@4ax.com> <721bjcFngqgjU1@mid.individual.net> <ra7ur49vc9lke19ip29l5jobpmnein1241@4ax.com>
Subject Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin?
Newsgroups rec.nude, alt.christnet.nudism
Date 2026-06-24 12:11 +0000
Message-Id <72d124FotsikU1@mid.individual.net>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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"Stuffed Tiger" <NotMe@NotAnAddress.com> wrote in message
news:ra7ur49vc9lke19ip29l5jobpmnein1241@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 09:27:07 -0000, "David Looser"
> <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
> You really do have a huge problem understand that *meaning* is in the
> mind not the fact.

No I don't, not at all, not even slighly. I'm not arguing about "meaning",
I'm arguing about "literal".

>
> Let's first look at an example that is NOT the literal meaning.

<snip> You are wasting your time with that one. I agree with you entirely.
>
> The author
> may intend a word mean something other than the literal meaning. There
> are many instances of this in the Bible. Genesis is full of them.

OF COURSE! That has been my point all along!
>
> In other places the literal meaning is intended, but not as today.
>
The literal meaning can change with time, as the language changes and with
cultural changes.
 >
> Semantics are absolutely critical to
> the literal meaning and impossible to resolve without a reference
> model of knowledge that approximates that of the author or speaker.

No, because the "literal" is based on the readers knowledge, not that of the
author. We don't need a "reference model of knowledge that approximates to
that of the author or speaker" to say what the "literal" meaning is, but we
do if  we want to speculate as to the *intended* meaning. Of course we can 
only ever speculate about the *intended* meaning of any text, unless we have 
a commentary by the original author.


> MacBeth is not historically accurate, even though there was a real
> King MacBeth of Scotland in 1040. It does not need to be historical
> because it is intended to convey something very different than
> accurate history,

It would have been a problem if it *had* intended to convey accurate
history, because we simply don't know enough about the historical Macbeth to
write a historically accurate play about him, and Shakespeare probably knew
even less.

> but that does not mean we can just fudge the
> intended literal meaning of the words if we want the full impact.

The *intended* meaning of the words is NOT the *literal* meaning, you've
just said so. The *literal* meaning is that it is a play about an 11th C
Scottish King, the *intended* meaning is something else. The *intended*
meaning is only the same as the *literal* meaning when the author intends us
to read it that way. Shakespeare clearly didn't intend any of his plays to
be read literally.

> MacBeth might be more truthful even if less factual. Like the Bible.

Truthful to what?. Truthful to the actual events in the life of the
historical Macbeth?, probably not. Truthful to some concept of "the human
condition"?, very likely.
>
> MacBeth was given to us less than 400 years ago and in our native
> language, it is easy to see how the literal meaning of the words in
> the Bible are different than the obvious literal meaning today,
> however well translated, because the semantics of every word are so
> different today in our minds than in the author's over 2K years ago.

Which is why the Bible needs interpreting, and why that interpretation is so
hard to do (and why "experts" will disagree as to the "correct"
interpretation). We know very little about the culture that produced Genesis
(and we don't know that Chapters 1 and 2 weren't borrowed from elsewhere,
they may not actually be of Israelite origin at all). So deciding what the
author's intended meaning was is near impossible. If we are going to
interpret the text in terms of what it means to a modern reader, then all
readers are equally qualified to make their own judgements.
>

> Even more important, we can see with hindsight not available to people
> of that time, that their actions in the light of History were not at
> all pleasing to God, and certainly not to be duplicated, no matter how
> much they were celebrated and perhaps necessary. As with MacBeth.
>
I have absolutely no idea how anyone is supposed to know whether *any*
actions are, or are not, "pleasing to God".

> If a person's reading of the lessons of the Bible (or the Koran or
> Hamlet) does not stand up to reason or common sense in today's world,
> then it is not an accurate reading of the literal meaning of the time
> as it would apply to today's world.

Sorry, that is another paragraph that makes no sense. What *on earth* is "an
accurate reading of the literal meaning of the time as it would apply to
today's world"?  - which "time"? If a passage does not conform to reason or
common sense in today's world, that does not mean that it didn't conform to
reason or common sense to the authors. So the *intended* meaning may well
not conform to reason or common sense today. But perhaps a modern reader can
find a different meaning in the text, one that perhaps the author was
unaware of.

David.

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Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-14 08:31 +0000
  Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Lane <absolutelane@yahoo.com> - 2026-06-14 08:31 +0000
  Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Zee <jonZeee@webtv.net> - 2026-06-14 08:45 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Zee <jonZeee@webtv.net> - 2026-06-14 09:34 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-14 20:04 +0000
  Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Anna <annaliddell@lycos.com> - 2026-06-14 09:01 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Bert Clanton <abertclanton@comcast.net> - 2026-06-14 11:03 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-14 13:04 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Neosapienis" <dariowestern@nospambigpond.com> - 2026-06-14 20:03 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Lane <absolutelane@yahoo.com> - 2026-06-14 17:03 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Anna <annaliddell@lycos.com> - 2026-06-14 18:02 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-15 05:02 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Anna <annaliddell@lycos.com> - 2026-06-14 17:35 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Zee <jonZeee@webtv.net> - 2026-06-14 18:16 +0000
  Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-14 09:02 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-14 09:32 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Dan Abel <dabel@sonic.net> - 2026-06-14 10:19 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Jenny6833A <Jenny6833A@aol.com> - 2026-06-14 11:49 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Dan Abel <dabel@sonic.net> - 2026-06-24 14:44 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-14 11:01 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? stinson_home@HOTMAIL.COM - 2026-06-14 11:02 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Zee <jonZeee@webtv.net> - 2026-06-14 11:45 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Stuffed Tiger <NotMe@NotAnAddress.com> - 2026-06-14 11:45 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-14 11:55 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? stinson_home@HOTMAIL.COM - 2026-06-14 13:01 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Clifford <CliffordAlls@aol.com> - 2026-06-14 13:04 +0000
          Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Dan Abel <dabel@sonic.net> - 2026-06-14 13:33 +0000
            Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Neosapienis" <dariowestern@nospambigpond.com> - 2026-06-14 14:34 +0000
              Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Zee <jonZeee@webtv.net> - 2026-06-14 18:16 +0000
            Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Jenny6833A <Jenny6833A@aol.com> - 2026-06-25 03:59 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Stuffed Tiger <NotMe@NotAnAddress.com> - 2026-06-14 14:06 +0000
          Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Zee <jonZeee@webtv.net> - 2026-06-14 18:02 +0000
          Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-24 12:11 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-14 14:02 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Jenny6833A <Jenny6833A@aol.com> - 2026-06-14 17:42 +0000
          Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Stuffed Tiger <NotMe@NotAnAddress.com> - 2026-06-25 00:58 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Stuffed Tiger <NotMe@NotAnAddress.com> - 2026-06-15 02:32 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Stuffed Tiger <NotMe@NotAnAddress.com> - 2026-06-14 13:01 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-25 00:58 +0000
  Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? stinson_home@HOTMAIL.COM - 2026-06-14 09:02 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Someone <someone@somewhere.com> - 2026-06-14 09:16 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? stinson_home@HOTMAIL.COM - 2026-06-14 20:31 +0000
  Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? BeoWolf <Naturistvideos@gmail.com> - 2026-06-14 09:16 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-14 11:02 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-14 12:00 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Lane <absolutelane@yahoo.com> - 2026-06-14 17:15 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-14 17:35 +0000
  Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Stuffed Tiger <NotMe@NotAnAddress.com> - 2026-06-14 09:34 +0000
  Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Anna <annaliddell@lycos.com> - 2026-06-14 09:34 +0000
  Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Stuffed Tiger <NotMe@NotAnAddress.com> - 2026-06-14 09:35 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-14 09:35 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Lane <absolutelane@yahoo.com> - 2026-06-14 09:46 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-14 12:00 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Zee <jonZeee@webtv.net> - 2026-06-24 09:43 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Anna <annaliddell@lycos.com> - 2026-06-14 10:00 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-14 10:23 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-14 12:01 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Stuffed Tiger <NotMe@NotAnAddress.com> - 2026-06-14 13:16 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-14 11:45 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-14 17:16 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-14 20:31 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Lane <absolutelane@yahoo.com> - 2026-06-15 05:32 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Jenny6833A <Jenny6833A@aol.com> - 2026-06-14 10:19 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Richard C. Rivers" <rcmang@comcast.net> - 2026-06-14 11:02 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Jenny6833A <Jenny6833A@aol.com> - 2026-06-14 11:03 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-14 11:46 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-14 11:02 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-14 11:16 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-14 11:46 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Dan Abel <dabel@sonic.net> - 2026-06-14 17:45 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Zee <jonZeee@webtv.net> - 2026-06-14 19:31 +0000
          Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-15 06:47 +0000
          Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-24 22:11 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-14 11:46 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Lane <absolutelane@yahoo.com> - 2026-06-14 14:34 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Zee <jonZeee@webtv.net> - 2026-06-24 18:11 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Paul <something@somewhere.co.uk> - 2026-06-14 12:00 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Lane <absolutelane@yahoo.com> - 2026-06-14 12:01 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-25 00:26 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Anna <annaliddell@lycos.com> - 2026-06-14 12:01 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Zee <jonZeee@webtv.net> - 2026-06-14 13:16 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Zee <jonZeee@webtv.net> - 2026-06-14 14:03 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-14 14:07 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Bert Clanton <abertclanton@comcast.net> - 2026-06-14 19:30 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Stuffed Tiger <NotMe@NotAnAddress.com> - 2026-06-14 12:30 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Stuffed Tiger <NotMe@NotAnAddress.com> - 2026-06-14 12:30 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-14 12:31 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Zee <jonZeee@webtv.net> - 2026-06-14 18:00 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Someone <someone@somewhere.com> - 2026-06-14 14:01 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Lane <absolutelane@yahoo.com> - 2026-06-14 18:01 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Fridthjof Andersen" <df@os.dk> - 2026-06-14 14:03 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Anna <annaliddell@lycos.com> - 2026-06-14 14:34 +0000
      Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Lane <absolutelane@yahoo.com> - 2026-06-14 19:15 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Lane <absolutelane@yahoo.com> - 2026-06-14 19:30 +0000
        Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-14 20:00 +0000
  Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Zee <jonZeee@webtv.net> - 2026-06-14 12:15 +0000
  Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Lane <absolutelane@yahoo.com> - 2026-06-14 14:01 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "Terry J. Wood" <TerryJWood@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-14 20:30 +0000
  Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? Zee <jonZeee@webtv.net> - 2026-06-14 17:04 +0000
    Re: Public Nudity: Innocent or Sin? "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> - 2026-06-15 03:15 +0000

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