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Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy..

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  Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-06-19 16:11 +0000
    Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Panthera Tigris Altaica <northerntiger@outlook.com> - 2018-06-19 09:31 -0700
    Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-06-19 10:19 -0700
      Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-06-19 17:26 +0000
      Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-06-19 17:23 +0000
        Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-06-19 11:17 -0700
          Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-06-19 19:22 +0000
            Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Jack Bohn <jack.bohn64@gmail.com> - 2018-06-20 06:02 -0700
              Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-06-21 09:56 -0500
                Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-06-21 16:36 +0000
      Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-06-20 00:32 -0700
        Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-06-20 16:03 +0000
          Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-06-21 09:57 -0700
    Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-06-19 10:37 -0700
    Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-06-19 17:21 +0000
      Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-06-19 17:57 +0000
        Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-06-19 19:25 +0000
          Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-06-19 15:04 -0700
      Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-06-19 19:54 +0000
        Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Panthera Tigris Altaica <northerntiger@outlook.com> - 2018-06-19 13:05 -0700
          Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> - 2018-06-19 16:37 -0400
            Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Anthony Frost <Vulch@vulch.org> - 2018-06-20 07:49 +0100
            Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-06-21 09:59 -0500
          Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-06-19 23:57 +0000
        Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-06-19 15:06 -0700
        Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-06-19 23:55 +0000
      Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-06-19 20:55 +0000
        Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-20 13:19 +0300
          Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-06-20 08:46 -0700
            Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2018-06-21 21:13 +0300
              Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-06-21 13:13 -0700
              Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-06-22 10:41 -0700
    Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-06-19 12:41 -0700
      Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-06-19 20:58 +0000
        Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> - 2018-06-19 23:37 -0400
          Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-06-19 22:12 -0700
            Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2018-06-22 11:14 -0700
              Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-06-22 12:21 -0700
                Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-06-23 08:35 -0700
          Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-06-20 06:02 +0000
    Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. David Johnston <davidjohnston29yahoocom@gmail.com> - 2018-06-19 12:57 -0700
      Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-06-19 14:49 -0700
        Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-06-20 00:00 +0000
          Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-06-19 19:10 -0700
            Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-06-19 23:13 -0700
              Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-06-20 14:33 -0700
                Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-06-20 15:44 -0700
    Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-06-20 00:29 -0700
      Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2018-06-20 14:54 -0500
      Re: Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy.. David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-06-21 10:05 -0500

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#493772

On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 13:05:48 -0700 (PDT), Panthera Tigris Altaica
<northerntiger@outlook.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 3:54:05 PM UTC-4, D B Davis wrote:
>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> > In article <foso99FkropU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> > Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>> >>A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
>> >>heavy wet Navy traditions.  In real life, it appeared for a long while
>> >>that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
>> >>
>> >>Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
>> >>either older service:
>> >>
>> >>       https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
>> >>
>> >>Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
>> >>grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
>> >
>> > From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
>> >
>> >>All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
>> >>neat logos and patches..
>> >  
>> > NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.
>> >
>> > I just googled "SpaceX logo."  It's pretty drab.  Surely they can
>> > do better than that?
>> >
>> 
>> Submitted for your approval.
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gen_Merrill_McPeak_1993.jpg
>
>His uniform is way too drab, even if you count the rings on the cuffs. American officers who aren't Navy don't usually have rings. Other places do. Here's the chief of the RAF. http://www.quazoo.com/q/Chief_of_the_Air_Staff_(United_Kingdom)?alt=Chief_of_the_air_staff_(united_kingdom)
>He has lots of rings, and lots of other things.

The USAF was entirely spun off from the U.S. Army; the Royal Air Force
was created by merging the Royal Flying Corps (army) with the Royal
Naval Air Service, so it's got more naval influence than the USAF.

 

-- 
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned:  A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml

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#493829

In message <p0qiidh9k0n37c5m0teqkr8cvfj3lpmakf@reader80.eternal-september.org>
          Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> wrote:

 > The USAF was entirely spun off from the U.S. Army; the Royal Air Force
 > was created by merging the Royal Flying Corps (army) with the Royal
 > Naval Air Service, so it's got more naval influence than the USAF.

Initially yes, but the Fleet Air Arm comes and goes reducing the
influence of the RAF on the Navy.

          Anthony

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#493944

On 2018-06-19, Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> wrote:
> The USAF was entirely spun off from the U.S. Army; the Royal Air Force
> was created by merging the Royal Flying Corps (army) with the Royal
> Naval Air Service, so it's got more naval influence than the USAF.

And, because of the classic Suntones quartet, I know the lyrics from the Armed
Forces Medley (US forces, of course) from -before- the splitoff occurred...

Dave, the caissons / go rolling / along!
-- 
\/David	DeLaney	posting	thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that	grows the flower
It's not the clock that	slows the hour 	The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is	all it takes to	make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE	HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible	:( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

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#493793

In article <47e66073-3925-4e31-9080-8ddbf65f3be2@googlegroups.com>,
Panthera Tigris Altaica  <northerntiger@outlook.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 3:54:05 PM UTC-4, D B Davis wrote:
>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I just googled "SpaceX logo."  It's pretty drab.  Surely they can
>> > do better than that?
>> 
>> Submitted for your approval.
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gen_Merrill_McPeak_1993.jpg
>
>His uniform is way too drab, even if you count the rings on the cuffs.
>American officers who aren't Navy don't usually have rings. Other places
>do. Here's the chief of the RAF.
>http://www.quazoo.com/q/Chief_of_the_Air_Staff_(United_Kingdom)?alt=Chief_of_the_air_staff_(united_kingdom)
>He has lots of rings, and lots of other things.

Well, he has some gold braid on his shoulder.  I'm still not very
whelmed.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#493784

On 6/19/2018 12:54 PM, D B Davis wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> In article <foso99FkropU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>> A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
>>> heavy wet Navy traditions.  In real life, it appeared for a long while
>>> that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
>>>
>>> Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
>>> either older service:
>>>
>>>        https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
>>>
>>> Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
>>> grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
>>
>>  From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
>>
>>> All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
>>> neat logos and patches..
>>   
>> NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.
>>
>> I just googled "SpaceX logo."  It's pretty drab.  Surely they can
>> do better than that?
>>
> 
> Submitted for your approval.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gen_Merrill_McPeak_1993.jpg
> 
> ✍
> 
> Thank you,
> 
I don't think he needs approval from any of us peons.  :)

-- 
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation 
instinct are running screaming.

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#493792

In article <20180619a@crcomp.net>, D B Davis  <g@crcomp.net> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>  
>> I just googled "SpaceX logo."  It's pretty drab.  Surely they can
>> do better than that?
>
>Submitted for your approval.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gen_Merrill_McPeak_1993.jpg

Hm.  Am I supposed to look at the General, or at the logo on his
uniform?  It looks like the standard military shield with a bunch
of weapons protruding from it in saltire, by which I am
underwhelmed.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#493774

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:pAKyvF.1I2y@kithrup.com: 

> In article <foso99FkropU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy
>>with heavy wet Navy traditions.  In real life, it appeared for a
>>long while that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would
>>be the Air Force. 
>>
>>Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate
>>from either older service:
>>
>>     https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.htm
>>     l 
>>
>>Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may
>>all grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
> 
> From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
> 
>>All apart from the important military ramifications, there
>>should be some neat logos and patches..
> 
> NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.
> 
> I just googled "SpaceX logo."  It's pretty drab.  Surely they
> can do better than that?
> 
I doubt that they could justify a large enough susbidy of taxpayer 
money to make it worth Musk's while.

(And given his latest ramblings about sabotage and Big Auto 
conpiracies, I think he's becoming Ross Perot. Has he talked about 
a Presidential run yet?)

-- 
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
    -- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

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#493835

In article <XnsA9068D9F8898taustincagmailcom@69.16.179.43>, 
taustinca@gmail.com says...
> 
> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
> news:pAKyvF.1I2y@kithrup.com: 
> 
> > In article <foso99FkropU1@mid.individual.net>,
> > Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
> >>A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy
> >>with heavy wet Navy traditions.  In real life, it appeared for a
> >>long while that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would
> >>be the Air Force. 
> >>
> >>Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate
> >>from either older service:
> >>
> >>     https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.htm
> >>     l 
> >>
> >>Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may
> >>all grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
> > 
> > From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
> > 
> >>All apart from the important military ramifications, there
> >>should be some neat logos and patches..
> > 
> > NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.
> > 
> > I just googled "SpaceX logo."  It's pretty drab.  Surely they
> > can do better than that?
> > 
> I doubt that they could justify a large enough susbidy of taxpayer 
> money to make it worth Musk's while.
> 
> (And given his latest ramblings about sabotage and Big Auto 
> conpiracies, I think he's becoming Ross Perot. Has he talked about 
> a Presidential run yet?)

It's kinda implied, isn't it? If Zuckerberg, why not him?

Peter Thiel just wants to be an immortal vampire on a space station, 
I've gathered.

-- 
Juho Julkunen

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#493848

Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:MPG.359456ba3ccfdcf6989b0c@news.kolumbus.fi: 

> In article <XnsA9068D9F8898taustincagmailcom@69.16.179.43>, 
> taustinca@gmail.com says...
>> 
>> djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
>> news:pAKyvF.1I2y@kithrup.com: 
>> 
>> > In article <foso99FkropU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> > Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>> >>A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space
>> >>Navy with heavy wet Navy traditions.  In real life, it
>> >>appeared for a long while that in the US, the "space" arm of
>> >>the military would be the Air Force. 
>> >>
>> >>Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate
>> >>from either older service:
>> >>
>> >>     https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.
>> >>     htm l 
>> >>
>> >>Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it
>> >>may all grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
>> > 
>> > From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
>> > 
>> >>All apart from the important military ramifications, there
>> >>should be some neat logos and patches..
>> > 
>> > NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.
>> > 
>> > I just googled "SpaceX logo."  It's pretty drab.  Surely they
>> > can do better than that?
>> > 
>> I doubt that they could justify a large enough susbidy of
>> taxpayer money to make it worth Musk's while.
>> 
>> (And given his latest ramblings about sabotage and Big Auto 
>> conpiracies, I think he's becoming Ross Perot. Has he talked
>> about a Presidential run yet?)
> 
> It's kinda implied, isn't it? If Zuckerberg, why not him?

Well, the conspiracy against Zuck isn't secret. There have been 
congressional hearings. So he won't sound as nutty if he talks 
about conspiracies.

(Mind you, I'm not saying there's *not* a conspiracy by Big Auto to 
destroy Tesla. It's not like there isn't historical precedent. Just 
that Musk sounds like a looney when he says it out loud. In the 
same vein, I can think of every plausible reasons why Ross Perot 
had good reason to believe the CIA was threatening himself and his 
family. The two more plausible are a) he was batshit crazy and 
hallucinating, or b) the CIA was theratening himself and his 
family.)
> 
> Peter Thiel just wants to be an immortal vampire on a space
> station, I've gathered.
> 
How certain are you that he hasn't already succeeded?

-- 
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland: 
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
    -- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

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#493963

In article <XnsA907594E42AA8taustingmail@69.16.179.42>, 
taustinca@gmail.com says...
> 
> Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:MPG.359456ba3ccfdcf6989b0c@news.kolumbus.fi: 

> > 
> > Peter Thiel just wants to be an immortal vampire on a space
> > station, I've gathered.
> > 
> How certain are you that he hasn't already succeeded?

Not as certain as I'd like to be, but I'm reasonably confident we'd 
spot the station, at least.

-- 
Juho Julkunen

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#493979

On 6/21/2018 11:13 AM, Juho Julkunen wrote:
> In article <XnsA907594E42AA8taustingmail@69.16.179.42>,
> taustinca@gmail.com says...
>>
>> Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:MPG.359456ba3ccfdcf6989b0c@news.kolumbus.fi:
> 
>>>
>>> Peter Thiel just wants to be an immortal vampire on a space
>>> station, I've gathered.
>>>
>> How certain are you that he hasn't already succeeded?
> 
> Not as certain as I'd like to be, but I'm reasonably confident we'd
> spot the station, at least.
> 
Cue the movie 'Moonraker'.  (Which ties in the Space Marines nicely.)

-- 
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation 
instinct are running screaming.

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#494042

Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:MPG.359617615cb6ea46989b0f@news.kolumbus.fi: 

> In article <XnsA907594E42AA8taustingmail@69.16.179.42>, 
> taustinca@gmail.com says...
>> 
>> Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:MPG.359456ba3ccfdcf6989b0c@news.kolumbus.fi: 
> 
>> > 
>> > Peter Thiel just wants to be an immortal vampire on a space
>> > station, I've gathered.
>> > 
>> How certain are you that he hasn't already succeeded?
> 
> Not as certain as I'd like to be, but I'm reasonably confident
> we'd spot the station, at least.
> 
Have you ever actually *looked*?

-- 
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland: 
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
    -- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#493765

On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 10:11:24 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
> heavy wet Navy traditions.

Which would make sense if space travel was similar to ocean travel. And with 
faster-than-light ships, and exotic ports of call on other planets, the analogy 
is plain.

With the more limited space capability we have now, a link to the air force 
makes sense; space is another way to reach any point on Earth (with ballistic 
missiles, for example).

John Savard

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#493775

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:38c95d8d-8aca-4f6a-a7f2-709f85e1c0fa@googlegroups.com: 

> On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 10:11:24 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
> <tednolan> wrote: 
>> A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy
>> with heavy wet Navy traditions.
> 
> Which would make sense if space travel was similar to ocean
> travel.

There are similarities, though more in speculative fiction than 
reality so far.

Air Force people live in bases, while Navy people live in ships. 
Space stations are far more like ships than bases.

But mostly, navies have far richer traditions to draw upon, and 
writers are notoriously lazy.

-- 
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
    -- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

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#493815

On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 20:58:13 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
<taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>news:38c95d8d-8aca-4f6a-a7f2-709f85e1c0fa@googlegroups.com: 
>
>> On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 10:11:24 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
>> <tednolan> wrote: 
>>> A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy
>>> with heavy wet Navy traditions.
>> 
>> Which would make sense if space travel was similar to ocean
>> travel.
>
>There are similarities, though more in speculative fiction than 
>reality so far.
>
>Air Force people live in bases, while Navy people live in ships. 
>Space stations are far more like ships than bases.
>
>But mostly, navies have far richer traditions to draw upon, and 
>writers are notoriously lazy.

We're SELECTIVELY lazy.  We'll put in absolutely insane levels of
effort in certain areas.  Inventing an entire new military culture
isn't one of those areas for most of us.




-- 
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned:  A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml

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#493817

On 6/19/2018 8:37 PM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 20:58:13 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>> news:38c95d8d-8aca-4f6a-a7f2-709f85e1c0fa@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 10:11:24 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
>>> <tednolan> wrote:
>>>> A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy
>>>> with heavy wet Navy traditions.
>>>
>>> Which would make sense if space travel was similar to ocean
>>> travel.
>>
>> There are similarities, though more in speculative fiction than
>> reality so far.
>>
>> Air Force people live in bases, while Navy people live in ships.
>> Space stations are far more like ships than bases.
>>
>> But mostly, navies have far richer traditions to draw upon, and
>> writers are notoriously lazy.
> 
> We're SELECTIVELY lazy.  We'll put in absolutely insane levels of
> effort in certain areas.  Inventing an entire new military culture
> isn't one of those areas for most of us.
> 
Building a military service's traditions is not something that works 
well by ordering it from the top.  And even if someone tried that, the 
traditions would just change with the history of the service.  (I'm 
reminded of the British Admiral off Crete saying something about a fleet 
in being is only useful if one _uses_ it.)


-- 
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation 
instinct are running screaming.

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#494050

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 6:12:17 AM UTC+1, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 6/19/2018 8:37 PM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> > On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 20:58:13 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
> > <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
> >> news:38c95d8d-8aca-4f6a-a7f2-709f85e1c0fa@googlegroups.com:
> >>
> >>> On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 10:11:24 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
> >>> <tednolan> wrote:
> >>>> A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy
> >>>> with heavy wet Navy traditions.
> >>>
> >>> Which would make sense if space travel was similar to ocean
> >>> travel.
> >>
> >> There are similarities, though more in speculative fiction than
> >> reality so far.
> >>
> >> Air Force people live in bases, while Navy people live in ships.
> >> Space stations are far more like ships than bases.
> >>
> >> But mostly, navies have far richer traditions to draw upon, and
> >> writers are notoriously lazy.
> > 
> > We're SELECTIVELY lazy.  We'll put in absolutely insane levels of
> > effort in certain areas.  Inventing an entire new military culture
> > isn't one of those areas for most of us.
> > 
> Building a military service's traditions is not something that works 
> well by ordering it from the top.  And even if someone tried that, the 
> traditions would just change with the history of the service.  (I'm 
> reminded of the British Admiral off Crete saying something about a fleet 
> in being is only useful if one _uses_ it.)
> 
> 
> -- 
> Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation 
> instinct are running screaming.

This is not the quote you are looking for, but it is by Admiral Cunningham off Crete and it does display the importance placed on tradition. I have seen it quoted elsewhere, but this is from a chapter in Winton's "Cunningham..." in which Cunningham repeatedly refers to tradition.

It has always been the duty of the Navy to take the Army overseas to battle and, if the Army fail, to bring them back again.

If we now break with that tradition, ever afterwards when soldiers go overseas they will tend to look over their shoulders instead of relying on the Navy. You have said, General, that it will take three years to build a new Fleet. I will tell you that it will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. If, gentlemen, you now order the Army in Crete to surrender, the Fleet will still go there to bring of the Marines.

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#494056

On 6/22/2018 11:14 AM, mcdowell_ag@sky.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 6:12:17 AM UTC+1, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 6/19/2018 8:37 PM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 20:58:13 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
>>> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>>>> news:38c95d8d-8aca-4f6a-a7f2-709f85e1c0fa@googlegroups.com:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 10:11:24 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
>>>>> <tednolan> wrote:
>>>>>> A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy
>>>>>> with heavy wet Navy traditions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which would make sense if space travel was similar to ocean
>>>>> travel.
>>>>
>>>> There are similarities, though more in speculative fiction than
>>>> reality so far.
>>>>
>>>> Air Force people live in bases, while Navy people live in ships.
>>>> Space stations are far more like ships than bases.
>>>>
>>>> But mostly, navies have far richer traditions to draw upon, and
>>>> writers are notoriously lazy.
>>>
>>> We're SELECTIVELY lazy.  We'll put in absolutely insane levels of
>>> effort in certain areas.  Inventing an entire new military culture
>>> isn't one of those areas for most of us.
>>>
>> Building a military service's traditions is not something that works
>> well by ordering it from the top.  And even if someone tried that, the
>> traditions would just change with the history of the service.  (I'm
>> reminded of the British Admiral off Crete saying something about a fleet
>> in being is only useful if one _uses_ it.)
>>
> 
> This is not the quote you are looking for, but it is by Admiral Cunningham off Crete and it does display the importance placed on tradition. I have seen it quoted elsewhere, but this is from a chapter in Winton's "Cunningham..." in which Cunningham repeatedly refers to tradition.
> 
> It has always been the duty of the Navy to take the Army overseas to battle and, if the Army fail, to bring them back again.
> 
> If we now break with that tradition, ever afterwards when soldiers go overseas they will tend to look over their shoulders instead of relying on the Navy. You have said, General, that it will take three years to build a new Fleet. I will tell you that it will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. If, gentlemen, you now order the Army in Crete to surrender, the Fleet will still go there to bring of the Marines.
> 
Memory is fallible and I may have been conflating with something else. 
Thank you for looking that up.

-- 
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation 
instinct are running screaming.

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#494118

On Friday, June 22, 2018 at 3:21:14 PM UTC-4, Dimensional Traveler wrote:

> Memory is fallible and I may have been conflating with something else. 
> Thank you for looking that up.

As for quotations about fleets Seth Meyer's "Late Night" crew had some fun:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dj_gEfbysI

Kevin R

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#493822

Lawrence Watt-Evans <misenchantedpress@gmail.com> wrote in
news:sqijid9qldei9sj4gubfk9brpe530l8npc@reader80.eternal-september.
org: 

> On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 20:58:13 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>>news:38c95d8d-8aca-4f6a-a7f2-709f85e1c0fa@googlegroups.com: 
>>
>>> On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 10:11:24 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
>>> <tednolan> wrote: 
>>>> A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space
>>>> Navy with heavy wet Navy traditions.
>>> 
>>> Which would make sense if space travel was similar to ocean
>>> travel.
>>
>>There are similarities, though more in speculative fiction than 
>>reality so far.
>>
>>Air Force people live in bases, while Navy people live in ships.
>>Space stations are far more like ships than bases.
>>
>>But mostly, navies have far richer traditions to draw upon, and 
>>writers are notoriously lazy.
> 
> We're SELECTIVELY lazy.

Well, the competent ones are.

>  We'll put in absolutely insane levels of
> effort in certain areas.  Inventing an entire new military
> culture isn't one of those areas for most of us.
> 
Though some do.

-- 
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
    -- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

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