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Going Back To The Well Again

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  Going Back To The Well Again David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-26 12:33 -0600
    Re: Going Back To The Well Again a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-26 12:08 -0700
      Re: Going Back To The Well Again Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-03-26 12:59 -0700
      Re: Going Back To The Well Again D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-03-26 20:47 +0000
        Re: Going Back To The Well Again Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> - 2018-03-27 13:15 -0700
          Re: Going Back To The Well Again wroehl@gmail.com - 2018-03-27 17:08 -0700
        Re: Going Back To The Well Again David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-04-02 03:40 -0500
          Re: Going Back To The Well Again Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-04-02 20:12 -0600
            Re: Going Back To The Well Again "Default User" <defaultuserbr@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-03 04:49 +0000
            Re: Going Back To The Well Again peterwezeman@hotmail.com - 2018-04-02 23:29 -0700
              Re: Going Back To The Well Again Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-04-03 07:50 -0600
                Re: Going Back To The Well Again D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-04-03 17:02 +0000
                  Re: Going Back To The Well Again Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> - 2018-04-03 17:34 +0000
                    Re: Going Back To The Well Again D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-04-04 13:30 +0000
                      Re: Going Back To The Well Again Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> - 2018-04-05 17:22 +0000
                        Re: Going Back To The Well Again D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-04-05 18:27 +0000
                          Re: Going Back To The Well Again Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> - 2018-04-05 19:04 +0000
                            Re: Going Back To The Well Again Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-04-05 13:36 -0700
                              Re: Going Back To The Well Again Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> - 2018-04-06 11:33 +0000
                            Re: Going Back To The Well Again D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-04-05 21:57 +0000
                        Re: Going Back To The Well Again djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-04-05 19:09 +0000
                          Re: Going Back To The Well Again Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> - 2018-04-06 11:34 +0000
                  Re: Going Back To The Well Again David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-04-04 04:22 -0500
                    Re: Going Back To The Well Again J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-04 07:09 -0400
                      Re: Going Back To The Well Again Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-04-04 06:50 -0700
                        Re: Going Back To The Well Again David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-04-07 01:07 -0500
                          Re: Going Back To The Well Again J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-07 07:27 -0400
                            Re: Going Back To The Well Again Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-04-07 07:19 -0700
                            Re: Going Back To The Well Again David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-04-07 20:33 -0500
                              Re: Going Back To The Well Again J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-07 21:54 -0400
                        Re: Going Back To The Well Again D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-04-07 21:33 +0000
                          Re: Going Back To The Well Again djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-04-07 22:08 +0000
                          Re: Going Back To The Well Again Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-04-07 16:46 -0700
                      Re: Going Back To The Well Again "artyw2@yahoo.com" <artyw2@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-04 07:55 -0700
                    Re: Going Back To The Well Again Carl Fink <carlf@panix.com> - 2018-04-04 13:44 +0000
                    Re: Going Back To The Well Again D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-04-04 13:45 +0000
                  Re: Going Back To The Well Again J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-04-04 07:05 -0400
            YASID - finding your home dimension by its bridge design. Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-04-03 07:51 -0600
            Re: Going Back To The Well Again "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-04-04 20:09 -0400
    Re: Going Back To The Well Again Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2018-03-27 09:29 +1300
    Re: Going Back To The Well Again ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-03-26 20:46 +0000
      Re: Going Back To The Well Again Johnny1A <johnny1a.again@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 22:11 -0700
        Re: Going Back To The Well Again David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-26 23:20 -0600
    Re: Going Back To The Well Again Johnny1A <johnny1a.again@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 22:05 -0700
      Re: Going Back To The Well Again David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-26 23:25 -0600
        Re: Going Back To The Well Again Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-27 18:31 +0300
          Re: Going Back To The Well Again David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-27 12:37 -0600
        Re: Going Back To The Well Again David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-04-02 03:44 -0500
          Re: Going Back To The Well Again Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-04-02 12:38 -0700
    Going Back To The Well Again Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-03-27 08:43 -0700
      Re: Going Back To The Well Again David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-27 12:38 -0600
        Re: Going Back To The Well Again djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-03-27 19:45 +0000
    Re: Going Back To The Well Again William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2018-03-27 11:52 -0700
    Re: Going Back To The Well Again David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-04-02 03:38 -0500
      Re: Going Back To The Well Again Steve Coltrin <spcoltri@omcl.org> - 2018-04-02 18:39 -0600
    Re: Going Back To The Well Again "artyw2@yahoo.com" <artyw2@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-02 19:50 -0700
    Re: Going Back To The Well Again "artyw2@yahoo.com" <artyw2@yahoo.com> - 2018-04-02 19:52 -0700

Page 3 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3]

#489096

In article <p9bee3$u90$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
David Johnston  <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>By request, my list of authors and their recurrent ideas.
>
>Isaac Asimov:   Using mathematics to predict people and run society and 
>rule by technocrats and/or artificial intelligences.
>
>Arthur C. Clarke:  Guided apotheosis.
>
>Richard Matheson:  The only man of his kind in the world living in 
>isolation.
>
>Robert A. Heinlein:  Rejection of sexual taboos, incest especially. Use 
>of corporal punishment and exile instead of imprisonment as we know it.
>
>John Norman:  Slave chix.  With the occasional bit of role reversal to 
>spice things up.
>
>H.P. Lovecraft:  Miscegenation is icky.  So is inbreeding.  Let's face 
>it, sex is icky.
>
>Frank Herbert:  Harsh environmental conditions producing supermen.
>
>Larry Niven.  Big dumb objects.  Also planets where only a small part of 
>it is habitable.
>
>Ray Bradbury.  A future culture which renounces things of the past like 
>religion, "superstition" and respect for history.
>
>Piers Anthony.  Rule by an oligarchy of persons of superior abilities. 
>Exile or execution of people believed to be particularly inferior.
>
>Clifford Simak.  Earth largely abandoned by an extinct or departed 
>humanity.  Religious robots.
>
>Orson Scott Card.  Keeping juveniles in ignorance of large parts of what 
>they are doing in the theory that this will foster creativity instead of 
>causing them to reinvent the wheel.
>
>Marion Zimmer Bradley.  Segregation of male and female.  People with 
>mating seasons.
>
>Phillip K. Dick.  Confusion and conflation of hallucination and reality.
>
>Joanna Russ.  Women who have dispensed with men as unnecessary and 
>troublesome.
>

Thanks!

Hmm..

Probably wouldn't be hard to do Chalker, Vance & Howard..
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#489146

On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 3:46:49 PM UTC-5, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <p9bee3$u90$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
> David Johnston  <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> Hmm..
> 
> Probably wouldn't be hard to do Chalker, Vance & Howard..
> -- 

Chalker, anyway, is more complicated than he looks.

At first glance, his 'thing' appears to be transformations, physical and mental.  He himself freely admitted that, I remember reading an essay he wrote in which he said, paraphrasing, "Yes, I'm fascinated by transformation, and here's why you should be too.'  Then he gave a good explanation for this premise.

But Chalker also liked to take a familiar storylne or concept of SF and use it to address some question apparently unrelated to it.

For example, his "Ring of the Master" series is a Chalker-esque, transformation-heavy story based on the old 'Collossus story', the AI supercomputer in control of the nuclear arsenal that takes over the world 'in our own interest'.  The AI really means this, it really is acting in what it conceives to be the best interest of human survival, but it does this by rather draconian means.

But one of the themes Chalker explores in the story, set centuries later, is 'How ruthless are you prepared to be to do a good, necessary thing?'

The protagonists are trying to do something good, to prevent a nasty, nasty development, but in order to do so, they end up inflicting, and enduring:  brainwashing, murder, torture, rape, psychic trauma, slaughter of innocents, etc.

The 'good guys' really do _try_ to use humane means where they can, but they'll get nasty if they need to, and Chalker doesn't let them off easy.  They can use such means and still be 'the good guys' because the stakes are so very high, but Chalker doesn't pretend they aren't doing what they're doing.

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#489149

On 2018-03-26 11:11 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 3:46:49 PM UTC-5, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> In article <p9bee3$u90$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
>> David Johnston  <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>>
>> Hmm..
>>
>> Probably wouldn't be hard to do Chalker, Vance & Howard..
>> -- 
> 
> Chalker, anyway, is more complicated than he looks.
> 
> At first glance, his 'thing' appears to be transformations, physical and mental.  He himself freely admitted that, I remember reading an essay he wrote in which he said, paraphrasing, "Yes, I'm fascinated by transformation, and here's why you should be too.'  Then he gave a good explanation for this premise.

Also at second glance.  And third.

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#489145

On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 1:33:45 PM UTC-5, David Johnston wrote:
> By request, my list of authors and their recurrent ideas.
> 
> Isaac Asimov:   Using mathematics to predict people and run society and 
> rule by technocrats and/or artificial intelligences.

Maybe more precisely the replacement of current-day politics by 'rational' governance.  The idea is not so much that 'smart people should rule' as that 'we can rule by  Reason rather than the way we're doing it, in our mutual interest...if we can just figure out how'.

> 
> Arthur C. Clarke:  Guided apotheosis.

Played for horror in _Childhood's End_, and for...well, mileage varies on how it plays...in _2001:  A Space Odyssey".  2001 and CE use many of the same tropes and themes, spun somewhat differently and told from differing perspectives, but the underlying themes definitely overlap.

> 
> Robert A. Heinlein:  Rejection of sexual taboos, incest especially. Use 
> of corporal punishment and exile instead of imprisonment as we know it.

'Early RAH' and 'late RAH' are almost two different writers.  Late RAH is along the lines you describe, early RAH seems more interested in looking at the meaning of, and application of, duty and obligation, and what 'makes a man', when it's appropriate to do your own thing, and when you must not.

Early RAH gave us _The Long Watch_, and _Requiem_, both of which play those themes in very different ways.


> 
> H.P. Lovecraft:  Miscegenation is icky.  So is inbreeding.  Let's face 
> it, sex is icky.

Also, the Universe is big, alien, dangerous, and ultimately beyond your comprehension or ability to cope.  You should be afraid, and cautious, not eager to plunge into danger beyond your imagination.  As a human, you're not a lion or a whale, you're a mouse or a rabbit or the like, and you'll live longer and better if you remember that you ain't at the top of the food chain.

> 
> Frank Herbert:  Harsh environmental conditions producing supermen.

Herbert is _way_ more complicated than that.  He's interested in why human beings do the stuff we do, both the pretexts we give others and ourselves, and the real reasons.  He's fascinated by the lies we tell ourselves, the way we limit our own perceptions.

He's also interested in the dangers of our inner tropes and archetypes, as he himself said, if there's a central message to the first 3 books of the _Dune_ series, it was "Beware of heroes."

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#489150

On 2018-03-26 11:05 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 1:33:45 PM UTC-5, David Johnston wrote:
>> By request, my list of authors and their recurrent ideas.
>>
>> Isaac Asimov:   Using mathematics to predict people and run society and
>> rule by technocrats and/or artificial intelligences.
> 
> Maybe more precisely the replacement of current-day politics by 'rational' governance.  The idea is not so much that 'smart people should rule' as that 'we can rule by  Reason rather than the way we're doing it, in our mutual interest...if we can just figure out how'.
> 
>>
>> Arthur C. Clarke:  Guided apotheosis.
> 
> Played for horror in _Childhood's End_, and for...well, mileage varies on how it plays...in _2001:  A Space Odyssey".  2001 and CE use many of the same tropes and themes, spun somewhat differently and told from differing perspectives, but the underlying themes definitely overlap.
> 

I'm not sure Clarke thought Childhood's End had a horrible end, even 
though many readers do.

>>
>> Robert A. Heinlein:  Rejection of sexual taboos, incest especially. Use
>> of corporal punishment and exile instead of imprisonment as we know it.
> 
> 'Early RAH' and 'late RAH' are almost two different writers.  Late RAH is along the lines you describe, early RAH seems more interested in looking at the meaning of, and application of, duty and obligation, and what 'makes a man', when it's appropriate to do your own thing, and when you must not.
> 
> Early RAH gave us _The Long Watch_, and _Requiem_, both of which play those themes in very different ways.
> 
> 
>>
>> H.P. Lovecraft:  Miscegenation is icky.  So is inbreeding.  Let's face
>> it, sex is icky.
> 
> Also, the Universe is big, alien, dangerous, and ultimately beyond your comprehension or ability to cope.  You should be afraid, and cautious, not eager to plunge into danger beyond your imagination.  As a human, you're not a lion or a whale, you're a mouse or a rabbit or the like, and you'll live longer and better if you remember that you ain't at the top of the food chain.
> 
>>
>> Frank Herbert:  Harsh environmental conditions producing supermen.
> 
> Herbert is _way_ more complicated than that.  He's interested in why human beings do the stuff we do, both the pretexts we give others and ourselves, and the real reasons.  He's fascinated by the lies we tell ourselves, the way we limit our own perceptions.
> 
> He's also interested in the dangers of our inner tropes and archetypes, as he himself said, if there's a central message to the first 3 books of the _Dune_ series, it was "Beware of heroes."
> 

I'm not encapsulating an author's entire oeuvre.  I'm just looking for 
plot elements they used more than once.  In fact the original point of 
the list was that I wanted to created a science fiction roleplaying game 
setting in which each planet had a gimmick inspired by a certain science 
fiction author

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#489172

In article <p9ckk8$kb4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, davidjohnston29@yahoo.com 
says...
> 
> On 2018-03-26 11:05 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
> > On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 1:33:45 PM UTC-5, David Johnston wrote:
> >> By request, my list of authors and their recurrent ideas.

> >> Frank Herbert:  Harsh environmental conditions producing supermen.
> > 
> > Herbert is _way_ more complicated than that.  He's interested in why human beings do the stuff we do, both the pretexts we give others and ourselves, and the real reasons.  He's fascinated by the lies we tell ourselves, the way we limit our own perceptions.
> > 
> > He's also interested in the dangers of our inner tropes and archetypes, as he himself said, if there's a central message to the first 3 books of the _Dune_ series, it was "Beware of heroes."
> > 
> 
> I'm not encapsulating an author's entire oeuvre.  I'm just looking for 
> plot elements they used more than once.  In fact the original point of 
> the list was that I wanted to created a science fiction roleplaying game 
> setting in which each planet had a gimmick inspired by a certain science 
> fiction author

I'd suggest shared consciousness, genetic memory, hive minds, or other 
variations on the theme of collective unconscious. Those show up more 
often than the one you listed.

-- 
Juho Julkunen

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#489188

On 2018-03-27 9:31 AM, Juho Julkunen wrote:
> In article <p9ckk8$kb4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, davidjohnston29@yahoo.com
> says...
>>
>> On 2018-03-26 11:05 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 1:33:45 PM UTC-5, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> By request, my list of authors and their recurrent ideas.
> 
>>>> Frank Herbert:  Harsh environmental conditions producing supermen.
>>>
>>> Herbert is _way_ more complicated than that.  He's interested in why human beings do the stuff we do, both the pretexts we give others and ourselves, and the real reasons.  He's fascinated by the lies we tell ourselves, the way we limit our own perceptions.
>>>
>>> He's also interested in the dangers of our inner tropes and archetypes, as he himself said, if there's a central message to the first 3 books of the _Dune_ series, it was "Beware of heroes."
>>>
>>
>> I'm not encapsulating an author's entire oeuvre.  I'm just looking for
>> plot elements they used more than once.  In fact the original point of
>> the list was that I wanted to created a science fiction roleplaying game
>> setting in which each planet had a gimmick inspired by a certain science
>> fiction author
> 
> I'd suggest shared consciousness, genetic memory, hive minds, or other
> variations on the theme of collective unconscious. Those show up more
> often than the one you listed.
> 

Ah, good one thank you.

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#489570

On 2018-03-27, David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm not encapsulating an author's entire oeuvre.  I'm just looking for 
> plot elements they used more than once.  In fact the original point of 
> the list was that I wanted to created a science fiction roleplaying game 
> setting in which each planet had a gimmick inspired by a certain science 
> fiction author

Gene Roddenberry.	Entire planets each inhabited by people with a single
strange society, containing beautiful women Kirk can fall in love with, and
which society has a flaw that the team can fix in under 30 minutes using the
Power Of Overacting.

:P

Dave, search your heart, you know it to be true
-- 
\/David	DeLaney	posting	thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that	grows the flower
It's not the clock that	slows the hour 	The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is	all it takes to	make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE	HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible	:( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

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#489604

On Mon, 02 Apr 2018 03:44:33 -0500, David DeLaney
<daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote:

>On 2018-03-27, David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I'm not encapsulating an author's entire oeuvre.  I'm just looking for 
>> plot elements they used more than once.  In fact the original point of 
>> the list was that I wanted to created a science fiction roleplaying game 
>> setting in which each planet had a gimmick inspired by a certain science 
>> fiction author
>
>Gene Roddenberry.	Entire planets each inhabited by people with a single
>strange society, containing beautiful women Kirk can fall in love with, and
>which society has a flaw that the team can fix in under 30 minutes using the
>Power Of Overacting.
>
>:P
>
>Dave, search your heart, you know it to be true

     You would need a lot of planets.

     Cue the power of overplaneting?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#489173

I tend to associate "Let's face it, sex is icky" with George Lucas. H. P. 
Lovecraft certainly dealt with a lot of icky stuff in his works, but sex 
hardly even makes an appearance.

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#489189

On 2018-03-27 9:43 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
> I tend to associate "Let's face it, sex is icky" with George Lucas. H. P.
> Lovecraft certainly dealt with a lot of icky stuff in his works, but sex
> hardly even makes an appearance.
> 

Perhaps I should have said "reproduction is icky".

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#489192

In article <p9e33p$1aue$2@gioia.aioe.org>,
David Johnston  <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 2018-03-27 9:43 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> I tend to associate "Let's face it, sex is icky" with George Lucas. H. P.
>> Lovecraft certainly dealt with a lot of icky stuff in his works, but sex
>> hardly even makes an appearance.
>> 
>
>Perhaps I should have said "reproduction is icky".

Well, it can lead to your having offspring who come back to kill
you.

Hildebrand, e.g.

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#489191

On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 2:33:45 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
> By request, my list of authors and their recurrent ideas.
> 
> Isaac Asimov:   Using mathematics to predict people and run society and 
> rule by technocrats and/or artificial intelligences.
> 
> Arthur C. Clarke:  Guided apotheosis.

More important for me are his distant, elegiac, futures as in "The City and the Stars", "The Road to the Sea" and so on.  Written mostly in the first half of his career.

> H.P. Lovecraft:  Miscegenation is icky.  So is inbreeding.  Let's face 
> it, sex is icky.

"As flies to wanton boys, are we to the gods; they kill us for their sport. "

is a far, far more important theme in Lovecraft.  Only worse, these gods may kill us without even thinking about it.

William Hyde

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#489568

On 2018-03-26, David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Piers Anthony.  Rule by an oligarchy of persons of superior abilities. 
> Exile or execution of people believed to be particularly inferior.

And, alas, gradually creepier examination of adolescent and pre-adolescent
sexuality.

> Marion Zimmer Bradley.  Segregation of male and female.  People with 
> mating seasons.

Interaction with alien races. Including at times different separated portions
of humanity.

Jack Chalker.	Physical transformation, often into a helpless or seemingly-so
form, usually female. What to do when your wishes might come true with the
help of aliens.

Dave, Keith Laumer.	Ordinary people evolving into godlike-powered beings.
 Beaucracy causing most of a department to be carrying the Idiot Ball at once.
-- 
\/David	DeLaney	posting	thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that	grows the flower
It's not the clock that	slows the hour 	The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is	all it takes to	make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE	HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible	:( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

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#489613

CJ Cherryh.  Negotiating crises in the presence of beings whose
psychology is impossible (because of biology, culture, or both) for
you to grok.

-- 
Steve Coltrin    spcoltri@omcl.org   Google Groups killfiled here 
  "A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel 
  to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed." 
  - Associated Press 

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#489617

On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 2:33:45 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:

> Clifford Simak.  Earth largely abandoned by an extinct or departed 
> humanity.  Religious robots.

Ordinary people dealing with aliens and what not. "Steinbeckian" SF. 

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#489618

On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 2:33:45 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
Bruce Sterling. Religion is a toy. In fact, everything is a toy. Nifty!

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