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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #502566 > unrolled thread
| Started by | eichler2@comcastsucks.net (Bice) |
|---|---|
| First post | 2018-11-17 15:22 +0000 |
| Last post | 2019-01-04 09:02 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 134 — 32 participants |
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YASID: Different value for pi eichler2@comcastsucks.net (Bice) - 2018-11-17 15:22 +0000
YASID: Different value for pi andrewelovejr@msn.com - 2018-11-17 08:49 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2018-11-17 17:08 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi eichler2@comcastsucks.net (Bice) - 2018-11-18 00:42 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi andrewelovejr@msn.com - 2018-11-17 16:47 -0800
YASID: Different value for pi andrewelovejr@msn.com - 2018-11-17 08:51 -0800
YASID: Different value for pi andrewelovejr@msn.com - 2018-11-17 08:52 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-11-17 09:37 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Steve Dodds <sdodds@nova-optical.com> - 2018-11-17 11:41 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-11-17 20:02 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-11-17 16:48 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> - 2018-11-17 16:22 -0600
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2018-11-18 13:17 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-11-18 21:02 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-11-19 11:40 -0600
Re: YASID: Different value for pi "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> - 2018-11-20 17:01 -0600
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-11-18 07:31 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-11-18 16:26 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-11-18 19:52 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-11-19 03:33 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-11-19 01:33 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-11-19 15:01 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-11-19 16:23 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-11-19 13:48 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-11-19 22:32 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Sjouke Burry <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> - 2018-11-19 23:55 +0100
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-11-19 15:36 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-11-20 00:57 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-11-20 01:47 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-11-20 04:41 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> - 2018-11-19 17:21 -0600
Re: YASID: Different value for pi D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-11-20 00:35 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> - 2018-11-20 13:36 -0600
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-11-18 23:04 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-11-18 11:44 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-11-19 01:41 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-11-19 08:49 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-11-17 22:46 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi "Jay E. Morris" <morrisj@epsilon3.com> - 2018-11-17 18:38 -0600
Re: YASID: Different value for pi J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-11-17 15:58 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-11-18 19:55 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-11-18 23:08 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-11-19 01:37 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi andrewelovejr@msn.com - 2018-11-19 03:58 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-11-19 07:42 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-11-19 08:56 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-11-19 14:32 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-11-19 07:45 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-11-19 14:56 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-11-19 12:28 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-11-19 12:58 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-11-19 15:26 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-11-19 15:42 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-11-19 20:25 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2018-11-19 20:45 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-11-19 22:29 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-11-20 06:52 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-12-04 14:23 -0600
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2018-11-19 21:47 -0600
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-11-20 06:53 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-11-20 06:13 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-11-20 06:56 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-11-20 14:26 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-11-24 19:49 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> - 2018-11-24 21:44 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-11-24 14:36 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-11-25 01:24 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-11-24 13:58 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-11-24 23:20 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-11-24 22:51 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2018-11-25 11:13 -0600
Re: YASID: Different value for pi David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-12-04 14:21 -0600
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-12-04 12:30 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-12-05 00:13 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-12-05 08:10 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-12-05 08:56 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-12-05 11:01 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-12-05 15:56 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-12-06 17:54 -0600
Re: YASID: Different value for pi "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 17:32 -0600
Re: YASID: Different value for pi David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-12-14 00:34 -0600
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2019-01-01 15:39 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2019-01-01 18:36 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2019-01-01 20:45 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2019-01-01 15:50 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2019-01-01 19:13 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2019-01-01 16:41 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Sjouke Burry <burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> - 2019-01-02 04:09 +0100
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2019-01-03 14:56 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2018-12-06 10:19 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-11-19 12:32 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-11-19 15:20 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-11-19 15:44 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-11-18 10:39 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-11-18 12:58 -0700
Re: YASID: Different value for pi ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-11-17 19:14 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> - 2018-11-17 18:34 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-11-17 22:44 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-11-18 05:12 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-11-18 03:43 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2018-11-18 09:56 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-11-18 14:19 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-11-18 19:23 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-11-18 15:36 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-11-18 21:06 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-11-18 13:06 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-11-18 21:04 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-11-18 18:08 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-11-19 03:22 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> - 2018-11-19 17:57 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2018-11-19 20:39 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi "Default User" <defaultuserbr@yahoo.com> - 2018-11-18 21:14 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2018-11-19 10:07 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-11-18 17:59 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2018-11-19 21:57 +1100
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Alan Baker <nunya@ness.biz> - 2018-11-26 16:43 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-11-26 22:07 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-11-26 14:10 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-11-26 23:00 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-11-26 15:11 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-11-26 15:38 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Alan Baker <nunya@ness.biz> - 2018-11-26 17:52 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2018-11-27 00:27 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-11-27 00:53 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Alan Baker <nunya@ness.biz> - 2018-11-26 22:11 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-11-27 04:09 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Alan Baker <nunya@ness.biz> - 2018-11-27 10:03 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-12-04 14:28 -0600
Re: YASID: Different value for pi "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-12-05 18:35 -0500
Re: YASID: Different value for pi "Gary R. Schmidt" <grschmidt@acm.org> - 2018-12-07 22:44 +1100
Re: YASID: Different value for pi ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-11-18 04:57 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2018-11-18 03:27 -0800
Re: YASID: Different value for pi eichler2@comcastsucks.net (Bice) - 2019-01-03 22:05 +0000
Re: YASID: Different value for pi Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2019-01-04 09:02 -0700
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| From | J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-11-20 06:13 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <sjq7vdpt0cu770jtt52los1uf903it2ca4@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #502751 |
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 21:47:10 -0600, Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: >Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote in >news:XnsA99F9D0272FC5taustingmail@69.16.179.43: > >> Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in >> news:e1064514-08c0-4174-9cd1-18ad0f144d46@googlegroups.com: >> >>> On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula >>> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote: >>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in >>>> news:m756vdlhn5k6gh0c4agnn5f5deabs25nlu@4ax.com: >>>> >>>> > On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:45:38 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc >>>> > <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote: >>>> > >>>> >>On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 6:56:21 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that >>>> >>> (a) looks like a message from God, in English, (b) has an >>>> >>> index showing where in Pi to find the same message >>>> >>> in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili, >>>> >>> Nahuatl, and every other language, with all of the indices >>>> >>> being accurate >>>> >>> (c) has the location in the constant "e", another >>>> >>> transcendental number, in which the same message may be found >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far. >>>> >> >>>> >>It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain all >>>> >>those things, if pi is normal, without it being in the least >>>> >>remarkable. >>>> >> >>>> >>However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being able >>>> >>to calculate pi to enough digits to see those things would require >>>> >>a computer larger than the whole universe. >>>> > >>>> > How do you know how large a computer it would take? And no, >>>> > I don't buy that the multiple indexing would occur in random >>>> > values of _any_ length. >>>> > >>>> If pi is truly random, and truly infinite, then such things >>>> _must_ be in there *somewhere*. Otherwise, it is not one of >>>> those two things. However, so far, we have only calculated less >>>> than three trillion digits, which is a trifle compared to infinity. >>> >>> At 3 trillion decimal digits, there's around a 50% probability >>> of containing any given string of bits up to 41 bits long (I >>> await correction). >>> >> 41 bits is less than six characters in ASCII. >> >> I'm a bit skeptical that even an all powerful, all knowing deity >> could implant much of an earth-shattering message in five and a >> half letters. > >Let me correct that slightly. 3 trillion bits has a 50% chance of >containing any give 41 bit string. Shorter strings are, of course >more likely. > >3 trillion decimal digits is about 10 trillion bits. >At that size, you have a 50% chance of finding any 43 bit sequence. FWIW, wiki says that the most recent calculation of pi was to 22,459,157,718,361 digits. A 72 core Xeon machine took 105 days to do that.
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| From | Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-11-20 06:56 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <4c3b23a0-b66c-400a-82da-54a012450ddf@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #502773 |
On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 6:13:54 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote: > On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 21:47:10 -0600, Cryptoengineer > <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: > > >Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote in > >news:XnsA99F9D0272FC5taustingmail@69.16.179.43: > > > >> Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in > >> news:e1064514-08c0-4174-9cd1-18ad0f144d46@googlegroups.com: > >> > >>> On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula > >>> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote: > >>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in > >>>> news:m756vdlhn5k6gh0c4agnn5f5deabs25nlu@4ax.com: > >>>> > >>>> > On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:45:38 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc > >>>> > <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote: > >>>> > > >>>> >>On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 6:56:21 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote: > >>>> >> > >>>> >>> So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something that > >>>> >>> (a) looks like a message from God, in English, (b) has an > >>>> >>> index showing where in Pi to find the same message > >>>> >>> in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit, Swahili, > >>>> >>> Nahuatl, and every other language, with all of the indices > >>>> >>> being accurate > >>>> >>> (c) has the location in the constant "e", another > >>>> >>> transcendental number, in which the same message may be found > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far. > >>>> >> > >>>> >>It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain all > >>>> >>those things, if pi is normal, without it being in the least > >>>> >>remarkable. > >>>> >> > >>>> >>However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being able > >>>> >>to calculate pi to enough digits to see those things would require > >>>> >>a computer larger than the whole universe. > >>>> > > >>>> > How do you know how large a computer it would take? And no, > >>>> > I don't buy that the multiple indexing would occur in random > >>>> > values of _any_ length. > >>>> > > >>>> If pi is truly random, and truly infinite, then such things > >>>> _must_ be in there *somewhere*. Otherwise, it is not one of > >>>> those two things. However, so far, we have only calculated less > >>>> than three trillion digits, which is a trifle compared to infinity. > >>> > >>> At 3 trillion decimal digits, there's around a 50% probability > >>> of containing any given string of bits up to 41 bits long (I > >>> await correction). > >>> > >> 41 bits is less than six characters in ASCII. > >> > >> I'm a bit skeptical that even an all powerful, all knowing deity > >> could implant much of an earth-shattering message in five and a > >> half letters. > > > >Let me correct that slightly. 3 trillion bits has a 50% chance of > >containing any give 41 bit string. Shorter strings are, of course > >more likely. > > > >3 trillion decimal digits is about 10 trillion bits. > >At that size, you have a 50% chance of finding any 43 bit sequence. > > FWIW, wiki says that the most recent calculation of pi was to > 22,459,157,718,361 digits. A 72 core Xeon machine took 105 days to do > that. That will get you another 3-4 bits. pt
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| From | Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-11-20 14:26 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA9A092E3FAAD7taustingmail@69.16.179.43> |
| In reply to | #502778 |
Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
news:4c3b23a0-b66c-400a-82da-54a012450ddf@googlegroups.com:
> On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 6:13:54 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke
> wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 21:47:10 -0600, Cryptoengineer
>> <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote
>> >in news:XnsA99F9D0272FC5taustingmail@69.16.179.43:
>> >
>> >> Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
>> >> news:e1064514-08c0-4174-9cd1-18ad0f144d46@googlegroups.com:
>> >>
>> >>> On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-5, Jibini
>> >>> Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
>> >>>> news:m756vdlhn5k6gh0c4agnn5f5deabs25nlu@4ax.com:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> > On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 07:45:38 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
>> >>>> > <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >>On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 6:56:21 AM UTC-7, J.
>> >>>> >>Clarke wrote:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>> So you are certain that somewhere in Pi is something
>> >>>> >>> that
>> >>>> >>> (a) looks like a message from God, in English,
>> >>>> >>> (b) has an index showing where in Pi to find the
>> >>>> >>> same message
>> >>>> >>> in French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit,
>> >>>> >>> Swahili, Nahuatl, and every other language, with all
>> >>>> >>> of the indices being accurate
>> >>>> >>> (c) has the location in the constant "e", another
>> >>>> >>> transcendental number, in which the same message may
>> >>>> >>> be found
>> >>>> >>>
>> >>>> >>> I'm sorry, but that's pushing randomness a bit far.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>It's perfectly possible for the digits of pi to contain
>> >>>> >>all those things, if pi is normal, without it being in
>> >>>> >>the least remarkable.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>However, in order for it not to be remarkable... being
>> >>>> >>able to calculate pi to enough digits to see those
>> >>>> >>things would require a computer larger than the whole
>> >>>> >>universe.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > How do you know how large a computer it would take? And
>> >>>> > no, I don't buy that the multiple indexing would occur
>> >>>> > in random values of _any_ length.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> If pi is truly random, and truly infinite, then such
>> >>>> things _must_ be in there *somewhere*. Otherwise, it is
>> >>>> not one of those two things. However, so far, we have only
>> >>>> calculated less than three trillion digits, which is a
>> >>>> trifle compared to infinity.
>> >>>
>> >>> At 3 trillion decimal digits, there's around a 50%
>> >>> probability of containing any given string of bits up to 41
>> >>> bits long (I await correction).
>> >>>
>> >> 41 bits is less than six characters in ASCII.
>> >>
>> >> I'm a bit skeptical that even an all powerful, all knowing
>> >> deity could implant much of an earth-shattering message in
>> >> five and a half letters.
>> >
>> >Let me correct that slightly. 3 trillion bits has a 50% chance
>> >of containing any give 41 bit string. Shorter strings are, of
>> >course more likely.
>> >
>> >3 trillion decimal digits is about 10 trillion bits.
>> >At that size, you have a 50% chance of finding any 43 bit
>> >sequence.
>>
>> FWIW, wiki says that the most recent calculation of pi was to
>> 22,459,157,718,361 digits. A 72 core Xeon machine took 105
>> days to do that.
>
> That will get you another 3-4 bits.
>
That puts us up to *almost* six full letters!
--
Terry Austin
Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-11-24 19:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <jXhKD.458716$uJ2.59012@fx27.iad> |
| In reply to | #502801 |
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes: >Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in >news:4c3b23a0-b66c-400a-82da-54a012450ddf@googlegroups.com: >> >> That will get you another 3-4 bits. >> >That puts us up to *almost* six full letters! You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans punctuation. More bits are required for others. In 'Contact' (the Novel), it was an M by N bitmap they found in PI, IIRC.
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| From | Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-11-24 21:44 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <3ahjvdp57qqhkim34vhv56nmguddqcis8t@jwbrown.co.uk> |
| In reply to | #503017 |
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 19:49:35 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: >Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes: >>Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in >>news:4c3b23a0-b66c-400a-82da-54a012450ddf@googlegroups.com: > >>> >>> That will get you another 3-4 bits. >>> >>That puts us up to *almost* six full letters! > >You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented >by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans >punctuation. More bits are required for others. > >In 'Contact' (the Novel), it was an M by N bitmap they found >in PI, IIRC. IIRC (I read it decades ago) that there's a similar picture in Danny Dunn* and the Message from Space. (*: I've been rereading these now some of them are on Kindle but Message from Space isn't available yet) -- Jerry Brown A cat may look at a king (but probably won't bother)
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| From | Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-11-24 14:36 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <1846f195-41a9-4142-b7ec-1a21eb7d8efd@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #503027 |
On Saturday, 24 November 2018 21:44:58 UTC, Jerry Brown wrote: > On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 19:49:35 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) > wrote: > > >Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes: > >>Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in > >>news:4c3b23a0-b66c-400a-82da-54a012450ddf@googlegroups.com: > > > >>> > >>> That will get you another 3-4 bits. > >>> > >>That puts us up to *almost* six full letters! > > > >You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented > >by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans > >punctuation. More bits are required for others. > > > >In 'Contact' (the Novel), it was an M by N bitmap they found > >in PI, IIRC. > > IIRC (I read it decades ago) that there's a similar picture in Danny > Dunn* and the Message from Space. > > (*: I've been rereading these now some of them are on Kindle but > Message from Space isn't available yet) A graphic in a signal from space is a different, and feasible, and actually executed proposition. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message> In _Contact_ - spoiler? - A video message is received from space. When played, it's Hitler. This apparently is because television coverage of Hitler's Olympics, featuring Hitler, was sent into space at the time - by accident, I think.
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| From | D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-11-25 01:24 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20181124a@crcomp.net> |
| In reply to | #503036 |
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, 24 November 2018 21:44:58 UTC, Jerry Brown wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 19:49:35 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>> >>Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
>> >>news:4c3b23a0-b66c-400a-82da-54a012450ddf@googlegroups.com:
>> >
>> >>>
>> >>> That will get you another 3-4 bits.
>> >>>
>> >>That puts us up to *almost* six full letters!
>> >
>> >You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented
>> >by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans
>> >punctuation. More bits are required for others.
>> >
>> >In 'Contact' (the Novel), it was an M by N bitmap they found
>> >in PI, IIRC.
>>
>> IIRC (I read it decades ago) that there's a similar picture in Danny
>> Dunn* and the Message from Space.
>>
>> (*: I've been rereading these now some of them are on Kindle but
>> Message from Space isn't available yet)
>
> A graphic in a signal from space is a different, and feasible,
> and actually executed proposition.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message>
>
> In _Contact_ - spoiler? -
>
> A video message is received from space. When played, it's Hitler.
>
> This apparently is because television coverage of Hitler's Olympics,
> featuring Hitler, was sent into space at the time - by accident,
> I think.
Television broadcasts radiate in a spherical pattern. Some broadcast
radiation inevitably goes off into outer space even though it is
intended for a terrestrial audience. When in outer space a television
broadcast more-or-less travels at the speed of light towards planets
that are light years away.
The movie's premise is that earth's original television broadcast
carried the 1936 Berlin Olympics. [1] So the 1936 Berlin Olympics is the
first terrestrial broadcast to arrive at a distance planet because it
left the earth first.
1. http://www.earlytelevision.org/olympics_1936.html
✍
Thank you,
--
Don
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| From | Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-11-24 13:58 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA9A48E275CFB6taustingmail@69.16.179.43> |
| In reply to | #503017 |
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in news:jXhKD.458716
$uJ2.59012@fx27.iad:
> Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>>Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in
>>news:4c3b23a0-b66c-400a-82da-54a012450ddf@googlegroups.com:
>
>>>
>>> That will get you another 3-4 bits.
>>>
>>That puts us up to *almost* six full letters!
>
> You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented
> by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans
> punctuation. More bits are required for others.
Eight letters versus six hardly makes a practical difference.
--
Terry Austin
Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-11-24 23:20 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <g5utaaF6pgmU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #503017 |
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: >Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes: >>Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in >>news:4c3b23a0-b66c-400a-82da-54a012450ddf@googlegroups.com: > >>> >>> That will get you another 3-4 bits. >>> >>That puts us up to *almost* six full letters! > >You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented >by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans >punctuation. More bits are required for others. Baudot used five. -- We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
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| From | Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-11-24 22:51 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <9051b727-3ffc-4d1f-b142-8d4d77c0b6aa@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #503062 |
On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 11:21:00 PM UTC-7, Greg Goss wrote: > scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: > >Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes: > >>Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in > >>news:4c3b23a0-b66c-400a-82da-54a012450ddf@googlegroups.com: > >>> That will get you another 3-4 bits. > >>That puts us up to *almost* six full letters! > >You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented > >by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans > >punctuation. More bits are required for others. > Baudot used five. Indeed. http://www.quadibloc.com/crypto/tele03.htm John Savard
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| From | Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-11-25 11:13 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA9A57C60091F8melchizedek@216.166.97.131> |
| In reply to | #503065 |
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in news:9051b727-3ffc-4d1f-b142- 8d4d77c0b6aa@googlegroups.com: > On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 11:21:00 PM UTC-7, Greg Goss wrote: >> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: >> >Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> writes: >> >>Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote in >> >>news:4c3b23a0-b66c-400a-82da-54a012450ddf@googlegroups.com: > >> >>> That will get you another 3-4 bits. > >> >>That puts us up to *almost* six full letters! > >> >You're assuming that a "letter" must be represented >> >by eight bits? Six is sufficient for English sans punctuation. >> >More bits are required for others. > >> Baudot used five. > > Indeed. > > http://www.quadibloc.com/crypto/tele03.htm The numbers I've quoted are just the probable distance you'd have to search into a random bitstream before the probability of finding any particular n-bit message reached 50%. If Dog wanted to put a message in, I don't think He/She/It is constrained by that. pt
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| From | David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-12-04 14:21 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <kJCdnbQMwPhFfJvBnZ2dnUU7-bmdnZ2d@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #502713 |
On 2018-11-19, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote: > If pi is truly random, and truly infinite, then such things _must_ > be in there *somewhere*. Otherwise, it is not one of those two > things. However, so far, we have only calculated less than three > trillion digits, which is a trifle compared to infinity. Careful; "random" is different than "normal". The latter is the one with every possible sequence of digits in it somewhere. It's perfectly possible to have a decimal expansion that's random, but only ever has the digits from 1 to 6 in it, for example. Dave -- \/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK> my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
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| From | Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-12-04 12:30 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA9AE7F44F351taustingmail@69.16.179.43> |
| In reply to | #503718 |
David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:kJCdnbQMwPhFfJvBnZ2dnUU7-bmdnZ2d@earthlink.com:
> On 2018-11-19, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If pi is truly random, and truly infinite, then such things
>> _must_ be in there *somewhere*. Otherwise, it is not one of
>> those two things. However, so far, we have only calculated less
>> than three trillion digits, which is a trifle compared to
>> infinity.
>
> Careful; "random" is different than "normal". The latter is the
> one with every possible sequence of digits in it somewhere. It's
> perfectly possible to have a decimal expansion that's random,
> but only ever has the digits from 1 to 6 in it, for example.
>
Pi, however, is not such a number.
--
Terry Austin
Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-12-05 00:13 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <4a8ac3f6-8fa9-4fb6-9286-54305f566009@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #503721 |
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote: > David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote in > news:kJCdnbQMwPhFfJvBnZ2dnUU7-bmdnZ2d@earthlink.com: > > Careful; "random" is different than "normal". The latter is the > > one with every possible sequence of digits in it somewhere. It's > > perfectly possible to have a decimal expansion that's random, > > but only ever has the digits from 1 to 6 in it, for example. > Pi, however, is not such a number. No, not exactly, but since Pi has not been proven to be normal, there could indeed be some sequence of, say, one million digits, that never occurs in all the infinity of pi. John Savard
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| From | Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-12-05 08:10 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA9AF533184F8taustingmail@69.16.179.43> |
| In reply to | #503753 |
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:4a8ac3f6-8fa9-4fb6-9286-54305f566009@googlegroups.com:
> On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula
> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote in
>> news:kJCdnbQMwPhFfJvBnZ2dnUU7-bmdnZ2d@earthlink.com:
>
>> > Careful; "random" is different than "normal". The latter is
>> > the one with every possible sequence of digits in it
>> > somewhere. It's perfectly possible to have a decimal
>> > expansion that's random, but only ever has the digits from 1
>> > to 6 in it, for example.
>
>> Pi, however, is not such a number.
>
> No, not exactly, but since Pi has not been proven to be normal,
> there could indeed be some sequence of, say, one million digits,
> that never occurs in all the infinity of pi.
Then it's not truly random. Which would be a pretty profound change
in the definition.
Infinity isn't just a large number.
--
Terry Austin
Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-12-05 08:56 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <7e17d678-5cad-481d-aef5-682209f94f4a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #503762 |
On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 9:10:45 AM UTC-7, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote: > Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in > news:4a8ac3f6-8fa9-4fb6-9286-54305f566009@googlegroups.com: > > On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula > > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote: > >> David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote in > >> news:kJCdnbQMwPhFfJvBnZ2dnUU7-bmdnZ2d@earthlink.com: > >> > Careful; "random" is different than "normal". The latter is > >> > the one with every possible sequence of digits in it > >> > somewhere. It's perfectly possible to have a decimal > >> > expansion that's random, but only ever has the digits from 1 > >> > to 6 in it, for example. > >> Pi, however, is not such a number. > > No, not exactly, but since Pi has not been proven to be normal, > > there could indeed be some sequence of, say, one million digits, > > that never occurs in all the infinity of pi. > Then it's not truly random. Which would be a pretty profound change > in the definition. > Infinity isn't just a large number. Pi isn't "random" either. It certainly isn't random. The digits of pi can be derived from a strictly defined process of calculation. Random digits produced by throwing dice happen to just range from 1 to 6 - such a digit sequence is random, but it isn't a random sequence of digits from 0 to 9, it's a random sequence of digits from 1 to 6. Pi is a transcendental number, that is, not only is it irrational, but as well it is not the solution to any algebraic equation. That's what's been proven about it. Liouville's number is transcendental, but its digits are mostly zeroes, with the odd 1 spaced at increasingly distant separations. So being transcendental is no guarantee of looking "random". Pi, while _not_ random, certainly _looks_ "random". The digits calculated so far not only do not repeat, as required by it being irrational, but seem to have no regular characteristics as digits. But this is just an observed appearance, not a proved formal property. The only formal property corresponding to this is being "normal". If a number is normal, then in its decimal expansion, as you go to larger and larger numbers of digits, for every n, all the different n-digit decimal sequences tend towards equal frequency. Pi might be normal. Many mathematicians think it is normal, as they can't think of any reason why it shouldn't be. The same goes for e, or for Euler's constant gamma. *But nobody has been able to prove this.* There is known a relatively simple method of calculating _hexadecimal_ digits of pi which are further out than we can in a reasonable time calculate the full value of pi - when one could calculate pi to a billion digits, this method could calculate the trillionth digit by itself if desired. This could mean that someday a pattern of a type - not a repetition, as pi is not rational - could be found in at least the hexadecimal digits of pi someday. (One of its discoverers was named Borwein, if you wish to Google this.) John Savard
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| From | Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-12-05 11:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA9AF7024FE40Ataustingmail@69.16.179.42> |
| In reply to | #503764 |
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:7e17d678-5cad-481d-aef5-682209f94f4a@googlegroups.com:
> On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 9:10:45 AM UTC-7, Jibini Kula
> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>> news:4a8ac3f6-8fa9-4fb6-9286-54305f566009@googlegroups.com:
>> > On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula
>> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >> David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote in
>> >> news:kJCdnbQMwPhFfJvBnZ2dnUU7-bmdnZ2d@earthlink.com:
>
>> >> > Careful; "random" is different than "normal". The latter
>> >> > is the one with every possible sequence of digits in it
>> >> > somewhere. It's perfectly possible to have a decimal
>> >> > expansion that's random, but only ever has the digits from
>> >> > 1 to 6 in it, for example.
>
>> >> Pi, however, is not such a number.
>
>> > No, not exactly, but since Pi has not been proven to be
>> > normal, there could indeed be some sequence of, say, one
>> > million digits, that never occurs in all the infinity of pi.
>
>> Then it's not truly random. Which would be a pretty profound
>> change in the definition.
>
>> Infinity isn't just a large number.
>
> Pi isn't "random" either. It certainly isn't random. The digits
> of pi can be derived from a strictly defined process of
> calculation.
>
> Random digits produced by throwing dice happen to just range
> from 1 to 6 - such a digit sequence is random, but it isn't a
> random sequence of digits from 0 to 9, it's a random sequence of
> digits from 1 to 6.
Mabye the universe is built in base 6. If you don't see the
significance of that, then this is yet another subject you don't
know enough about to have a grown up conversation on.
--
Terry Austin
Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-12-05 15:56 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <f2ca1782-7b0d-4cf3-bb57-303e0dab544d@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #503764 |
On Wednesday, 5 December 2018 16:56:15 UTC, Quadibloc wrote: > On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 9:10:45 AM UTC-7, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote: > > Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in > > news:4a8ac3f6-8fa9-4fb6-9286-54305f566009@googlegroups.com: > > > On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula > > > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote: > > >> David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote in > > >> news:kJCdnbQMwPhFfJvBnZ2dnUU7-bmdnZ2d@earthlink.com: > > > >> > Careful; "random" is different than "normal". The latter is > > >> > the one with every possible sequence of digits in it > > >> > somewhere. It's perfectly possible to have a decimal > > >> > expansion that's random, but only ever has the digits from 1 > > >> > to 6 in it, for example. > > > >> Pi, however, is not such a number. > > > > No, not exactly, but since Pi has not been proven to be normal, > > > there could indeed be some sequence of, say, one million digits, > > > that never occurs in all the infinity of pi. > > > Then it's not truly random. Which would be a pretty profound change > > in the definition. > > > Infinity isn't just a large number. > > Pi isn't "random" either. It certainly isn't random. The digits of pi can be > derived from a strictly defined process of calculation. > > Random digits produced by throwing dice happen to just range from 1 to 6 - such > a digit sequence is random, but it isn't a random sequence of digits from 0 to > 9, it's a random sequence of digits from 1 to 6. > > Pi is a transcendental number, that is, not only is it irrational, but as well > it is not the solution to any algebraic equation. That's what's been proven > about it. > > Liouville's number is transcendental, but its digits are mostly zeroes, with the odd 1 spaced at increasingly distant separations. So being transcendental is no guarantee of looking "random". > > Pi, while _not_ random, certainly _looks_ "random". The digits calculated so far > not only do not repeat, as required by it being irrational, but seem to have no > regular characteristics as digits. But this is just an observed appearance, not > a proved formal property. > > The only formal property corresponding to this is being "normal". If a number is > normal, then in its decimal expansion, as you go to larger and larger numbers of > digits, for every n, all the different n-digit decimal sequences tend towards > equal frequency. > > Pi might be normal. Many mathematicians think it is normal, as they can't think > of any reason why it shouldn't be. The same goes for e, or for Euler's constant > gamma. *But nobody has been able to prove this.* > > There is known a relatively simple method of calculating _hexadecimal_ digits of > pi which are further out than we can in a reasonable time calculate the full > value of pi - when one could calculate pi to a billion digits, this method could > calculate the trillionth digit by itself if desired. This could mean that > someday a pattern of a type - not a repetition, as pi is not rational - could be > found in at least the hexadecimal digits of pi someday. (One of its discoverers > was named Borwein, if you wish to Google this.) > > John Savard e begins with digits 2.7 1828 1828, and the only sense in which it is or isn't random is that I randomly or non-randomly decided to use base 10 to discuss it. (Any number base is "base 10", anyway.) So, I think we should stop discussing whether digits of invariable pure mathematical constants contain messages to us from God, and concentrate on finding the /meaning/ of what obviously is one. :-) (Also: why wouldn't God just put messages in a book, and make it widely available? The messages in mathematical constants then would just be promotional communications to get you to read the book. Also, the universe needs these constants to be right to run, although probably pi of anything between 3.14 to 3.15 or the popular 22/7 would do...??? [Message From Rob: "This isn't even wrong. See Me."])
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| From | David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-12-06 17:54 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <Naidnfkv4rpMK5TBnZ2dnUU7-fXNnZ2d@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #503795 |
On 2018-12-05, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote: > Also, the universe needs > these constants to be right to run, although probably > pi of anything between 3.14 to 3.15 or the popular 22/7 > would do...??? [Message From Rob: "This isn't even wrong. See Me."]) Mathematical pi is a constant, you don't need to do anything other than basic arithmetic to find the value. [See: Ramanujan, who is not forgotten, and STILL not completely solved.] Physical pi depends directly on the local curvature of space [ObSF: The extremely high-gravity alien villains in the Arcot Wade & Morey stories, whose home environment was such that their spaceships looked Wrong once out in mostly-flat space.], although it's almost always -less- than math-pi because gravity only has one charge. But there are theoretical ways to get minus-curved space. Dave -- \/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK> my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
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| From | "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2018-12-08 17:32 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <puhkb9$3al$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #503860 |
On 06/12/2018 17.54, David DeLaney wrote: > On 2018-12-05, Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote: >> Also, the universe needs >> these constants to be right to run, although probably >> pi of anything between 3.14 to 3.15 or the popular 22/7 >> would do...??? [Message From Rob: "This isn't even wrong. See Me."]) > > Mathematical pi is a constant, you don't need to do anything other than basic > arithmetic to find the value. [See: Ramanujan, who is not forgotten, and STILL > not completely solved.] > > Physical pi depends directly on the local curvature of space When you say "physical pi" do you mean something along the lines of "the ratio of the measured circumference of a specific circle to its measured diameter"? In curved space, that won't be a constant; it'll vary from circle to circle. It's easiest to see this in positive curvature. Pick any point and draw a set of concentric circles around that point. The very smallest will have ratios very close to pi. As the radii get bigger, the ratio will drop. If you visualize this on the surface of a spherical model of the Earth, with the center of all of the circles at a Pole, by the time that you have the Equator, its ratio will be down to 2. As you increase the radius (and hence the diameter) further, the circumference will no longer increase, but it'll decrease, reaching zero when the circle reaches the other Pole. -- Michael F. Stemper A preposition is something you should never end a sentence with.
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