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<Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor

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  <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-05 23:57 +0000
    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor xubist@gmail.com - 2018-10-05 23:53 -0700
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2018-10-06 09:42 -0500
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-10-06 09:38 -0700
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-06 12:28 -0700
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-10-06 13:43 -0700
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-06 11:46 -0600
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor xubist@gmail.com - 2018-10-07 06:09 -0700
    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-07 08:34 -0400
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-07 22:13 +0000
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-08 10:02 -0400
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2018-10-08 11:28 -0700
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-08 18:31 +0000
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-08 14:23 -0700
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-08 19:40 -0400
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-09 16:33 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-09 13:55 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-09 18:56 -0400
    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-09 08:47 -0400
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-10 19:19 +0000
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-10 19:42 -0400
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-11 00:13 -0700
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-11 06:55 -0400
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 04:25 +0000
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 08:23 -0400
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 08:59 -0400
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 20:17 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-12 19:20 -0600
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 02:50 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-13 05:46 -0700
                  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 14:55 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-10-13 09:29 -0500
                  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 15:21 +0000
                  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-13 11:41 -0400
                    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 21:50 +0000
                      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 18:29 -0400
                      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-14 23:24 +0000
                      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-14 20:01 -0700
                      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-10-15 02:05 -0600
                      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-15 09:18 -0700
                        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 16:45 +0000
                          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-10-17 22:54 -0700
                      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-15 19:32 -0400
                      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2018-10-16 07:13 +0000
                        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2018-10-16 14:13 -0400
                        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 23:53 +0000
                          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 21:31 -0400
                          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-10-16 22:43 -0600
                            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2018-10-17 05:03 +0000
                            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor frank.scrooby@gmail.com - 2018-10-16 23:44 -0700
                              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-17 06:54 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor peterwezeman@hotmail.com - 2018-10-13 13:21 -0700
                  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-13 21:48 +0000
                  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2018-10-13 16:01 -0600
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 21:42 +0000
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 18:16 -0400
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-12 23:48 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 20:00 -0400
                  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-13 00:36 +0000
                    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-12 22:04 -0400
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 00:21 +0000
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-15 19:31 -0400
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-18 12:48 -0400
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-19 04:33 +0000
                  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-19 16:29 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-19 18:12 -0400
                  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Magewolf <Magewolf@nc.rr.com> - 2018-10-20 09:45 -0400
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-26 02:30 +0000
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-26 12:35 -0700
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-10-28 19:30 +0000
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> - 2018-10-28 23:03 +0000
            Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-30 08:18 -0400
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2018-10-31 01:12 -0600
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-31 02:33 -0700
                  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-31 10:53 -0400
                  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2018-10-31 14:27 -0500
                    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-10-31 13:54 -0700
                      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2018-10-31 14:41 -0700
                        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2018-11-01 14:40 +1300
                    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2018-11-01 14:34 +1300
              Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-10-31 16:12 +0000
                Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-31 20:11 -0400
                  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2018-11-01 11:55 -0500
                    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2018-11-01 16:12 -0700
                      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2018-11-01 17:43 -0700
                    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-11-01 19:35 -0400
                      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2018-11-02 16:47 -0700
                  Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2018-11-01 10:18 -0700
                    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-11-01 19:35 -0400
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-10 19:47 -0400
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> - 2018-10-11 14:57 +0000
          Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-11 18:15 -0400
    Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 19:17 -0500
      Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2018-10-16 20:27 -0400
        Re: <Princess Holy Aura> by Ryk Spoor Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 20:12 -0500

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#500094

On 10/10/18 3:19 PM, Joe Bernstein wrote:
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
> news:ppi81l$e2u$1@dont-email.me:
> 
>> (Spoilers below, naturally)
> 
>> On 10/5/18 7:57 PM, Joe Bernstein wrote:
> 
> [<Princess Holy Aura>'s status as a magical girl novel helps explain]
> 
>>> 3. Its care in avoiding the obvious depths possible to the core idea.
>>>
>>> It doesn't avoid *all* of them.
> 
>>       I described writing this book as tapdancing on landmines while juggling
>> containers of gasoline. There were some Very Very Very bad directions
>> this could go (maybe beyond mere "Oh John Ringo No" and straight to "Oh
>> No Piers Anthony No"). So exploring various ideas had to be done ...
>> carefully.
> 
> Fair enough.
> 
>>     The book takes care to keep the
>>> possibility that its protagonist could be seen as a pervert in heaven
>>> front and centre, even though it keeps refuting the idea.  But a
>>> whole lot of other stuff is weakly developed if at all.  We're told
>>> that somewhere inside the transformed protagonist's mind there's a
>>> discrete bit representing her former male self, reacting in fairly
>>> predictable ways to milestones in her female life.  But we're also
>>> told that this character ultimately has no desire whatsoever to do
>>> as the book's setup demands, and go back to male life when the
>>> apocalypse is averted.  Huh?
>>
>>       Steve/Holly changed during their tenure. To a small extent, this is
>> because there was, as Silvertail mentions, a "template" of the Magical
>> Girl that gives the nascent Holly Owen/Holy Aura an actual foundation of
>> ... well, "essence of teenage girl", that Steve-Before-Book didn't have.
> 
> OK, small extent.  So - as I give you credit for making *usual* in
> the book - the magic doesn't dictate the personal here.
> 
>>       The book leaves open whether Steve had any hidden TG elements; it
>> wasn't necessary to delve into that one way or the other.
> 
> I remember that on first reading I felt something mildly strange
> about his interaction with Dex before and after the game, FWIW.
> No idea whether you wanted that vibe.  This didn't recur, as best I
> remember, on second reading.
> 
>>       Another major factor is that while Steve had gaming friends, he had
>> very few PEERS. He was essentially alone in his life, his parents gone,
>> all his friends from childhood dead or dispersed, and his gaming group
>> the only outside contact he had. He was a nice guy, and he knew as
>> nodding acquaintances a lot of people around him, but he was in an
>> isolated, dead-end existence. The promise of "well, the magic will make
>> your life better if this ends well" is nice, but that's a vague future
>> promise even if you believe it.
>>
>>       Her existence as Holly, OTOH, was very real, immediate, and more
>> diverse and colorful than his existence as Steve.
> 
> Is a spouse a peer?  Seems to me that depends on the couple's views
> on gender relations, and we're given plenty of evidence that Stephen
> Russ would say yes to that question.

	A spouse would be a peer. He has no spouse, though, so there's no 
connection there.


> 
> This is the core of my concern - this is essentially auctorial
> confirmation of what I listed as possibility g) in a previous post,
> there described as Holly having relationships Stephen couldn't have.
> 
> I'm going to tackle this in two ways in this post.  First, abstractly,
> so that'll be here.
> 
> We're told that Stephen is manager of a bagel place.

	No, we're not. We're told he WORKS at a bagel place. He was not a manager.

	This bears upon your discussion below. His only peers would be the 
other workers in the place, and they're not, really, peers, as he's 
older than most of them, or younger than most of them.

>  We aren't told
> whether he has co-workers, but that isn't actually relevant to what
> you say here, because even at that level, subordinates aren't peers.
> (He does seem to be his group's only DM, which means his players
> aren't peers either.  Not all groups work that way; the fact that the
> teen group in the book doesn't, is sort of a thumb on the scales I'll
> get to.) 

	There is no particular difference in the mechanics of how Steve's old 
group and new group work, at least in terms of the GM position. Until 
Dex and Holly start working on alternative games, Holly's the only GM, 
and that's for most of the book.


> We also aren't told what sorts of shops surround the bagel
> place - whether it's the only shop for a mile each way, whether it's
> in a mall (though evidently not the one that gets trashed), a strip
> mall, a commercial block, a mostly non-commercial skyscraper, what.
> This has significant consequences for his human contact; neighbouring
> shopkeepers *are* his peers, though his interests and theirs may well
> not overlap.

	As per my prior bit, they aren't peers, as he's not a manager (and a 
MANAGER is not an OWNER, so if the other shops around are mostly 
local-owned and managed (they are, it's Little Italy in Troy, basically) 
and he's working in a chain store, there's even less connection, even if 
he was a manager).

> 
> I think in America generally, people in their thirties are more
> isolated than in their twenties or teens.  The intense sociality of
> high school has pretty much faded.  Jobs tend to offer fewer peers -
> for example here, he isn't just a regular worker at the bagel place,
> but the manager.  Quite a lot of people that age have pretty much
> retreated into family life, their social lives built around their
> kids' lives.  This is pretty much the first decade in which the
> negative consequences of remaining unmarried come front and centre.
> So is a spouse a peer?

	A spouse would be, but he doesn't have one. I didn't have one until I 
was well over 30. The original Steve had one, but that would have added 
complications to the story I didn't want to touch in this book (that's 
more for my planned series _The Door Reopened_ if I get to it).

> 
>>> I think this dissonance invites a couple of misreadings:
> 
>> Or you're going to have to assume that the complexity
>> comes unconsciously into the work, but then you have to assume I can't
>> speak to what the truth is.
> 
> I neither abjure nor prefer the sort of "author's intent doesn't
> matter" thing usually called New Criticism.  In this particular case,
> I think I can reasonably argue that the book does things you may not
> have intended it to do; that makes it quite like many other human
> activities that have unintended consequences, after all.
> 
>>> But I
>>> think the book *does* have a genuine flaw, at the end, when the
>>> darkness proper to the protagonist's decisions is undermined by their
>>> lack of clear motivation. [2]
> 
>>       If you mean Holy Aura's final decision to choose to attempt the
>> impossible, I'm rather surprised and disappointed that you miss the
>> motivation that I THOUGHT I had made clear through multiple repetitions,
>> and encapsulated by some of Holly's final words:
> 
> Nope, didn't miss that at all.  That isn't the decision I meant.
> 
> In the post you're quoting, I waffled by putting it in plural:
> "decisions".  Later I said the evidence that I was talking about a
> "decision" at all was weak, but my interlocutor said it was a
> reasonable word choice.
> 
> Anyway, what I mean is Holly's expressed preference for staying a
> girl after the apocalypse is averted, followed by her action that
> (almost certainly unintentionally) makes that preference
> unavoidable, followed, of course, by the magical loose end that
> enables the preference to happen (once again, in this book, neatly
> subordinating the magical to the personal).  Her strong hostility
> toward her (original) male form *is* dark, and should have dark
> underpinnings; it doesn't.
> 

	I don't see it as dark but more conflicting. Holly's found a really 
pretty wonderful life that she did not expect, especially with the 
initial strain of becoming Holy Aura and abandoning Steve for very 
practical reasons. After all the time -- very, VERY intense time with 
strong emotional components -- with her new friends, she's developed 
extremely strong bonds with them-- stronger and more emotionally 
powerful than likely any bonds he's ever had with anyone outside his 
parents.

	This is a HUGE motivation for Holly to want to remain that way. The 
"rosy future" that Silvertail promises may be quite real -- Steve has no 
reason to doubt Silvertail's word -- but it's ABSTRACT. It hasn't a 
thousandth the emotional lure that "keep these friends and this life 
that I've really come to enjoy" has.

	It's only DARK if you think that it's BAD that a person can change 
their goals and self-image.


> I don't see much alternative to doing what I did above again, this
> time less abstractly.  I'm not comfortable doing this, which is why
> I put this post off overnight.
> 
> So OK.  In the book, I'm not sure of Holly's age.  She's a freshman
> in high school in an area that has junior highs.  I thought junior
> high went to 9th grade; so is Holly in 10th?  But let's pretend she
> really is a freshman, and fourteen (the back cover's "twelve" can be
> ignored).  As a freshman I was in the same school building, though
> notionally a different school, as eighth grade, so I knew people,
> including the guy who arranged to film me allegedly kissing a fellow
> geek during that year.  (We were all terrified of homosexuality.  I
> heard that wasn't true, a few years later at that school, but it was
> when I was there.)  Also the fellow geeks; I didn't like them all,
> but they were the people I was able to socialise with at school.  But
> I still knew people from childhood.  I got into gaming that year, and
> people from childhood, people I met at the university near my house,
> and people from high school were all in my first games.  I was often
> miserably lonely, but this was a rich social life compared to much
> that lay ahead.  If we go on to when I was fourteen (I was two grades
> ahead), it was even richer, because by then girls who interested me
> were talking to me (though not dating me).

	This is not my experience of high school, nor that of most of the 
people I knew. I had very, very few friends. I did not socialize with 
anyone who did not share a number of interests with me. My richest 
social life lay much farther ahead. (I DID use the terror of 
homosexuality on occasion; threatening to kiss guys bothering me would 
get them to flee)

	Part of the irony of Holy Aura for me is that she finds her high school 
life ATTRACTIVE, when it was a period of life I wouldn't have gone back 
to if you paid me. OTOH, compared with Steve's life... that's a 
different choice.

> 
> When I turned thirty I lived in Chicago; when I turned forty I lived
> in Seattle; but most of the decade in between, I lived in Wisconsin,
> in Milwaukee except for about 18 months in Madison.
> 
> That year in Chicago represented the collapse of the social pattern
> of my 20s.  I'd worked for several years in a bank department that
> offered rich social possibilities, lots and lots of my near- or full
> contemporaries.  But even while I was flaming out of there, quite a
> few of my friends were moving on, travelling, getting promoted ...
> (My nominal supervisor at the time of the flame-out had been a peer.)
> I'd also worked for several years at The Stars Our Destination, and
> when I left I had friends from there, and feeble hopes to date a co-
> worker.  The friends I'd made writing, earlier in the decade, had
> already dispersed, for the most part, as had my college friends.
> 
> I haven't lived comfortably in Milwaukee as an adult, and the two
> stints in my thirties were no exception.  During the first I only
> slowly let go of Chicago, and most of the friends from there.  I had
> no sustained jobs in Milwaukee as I'd had in my late 20s, and the few
> people I retained *any* contact with weren't peers but references.
> Madison was even more isolating.  The second stint in Milwaukee was
> dominated by my mother's death, and later by my planning for Seattle,
> although it included my closest association with gaming since my
> teens.  (A game run by a friend who'd married, but not had kids.)
> There's a line in <A Civil Campaign> that I first read during those
> years - "Once past his school days, Tien had never made a new good
> friend."  It isn't actually true of me, but it worried me a lot,
> around then.  In particular, even though my work kept me moving
> around, I met very few women who interested me, and none for whom I
> could sustain that interest.
> 
> Which brings me to ...  Already in my 20s, I'm pretty sure I'd
> noticed that my next older brother, my elder sister and I all have
> essentially the same face.  Probably if my twin sister had lived,
> she'd have had it too.  In women, it's a pretty face.  In men, not
> so much, and of course my *height*, never over 5'3" (160 cm) didn't
> help.  What I'm getting at is that as I reached higher and more
> embarrassing ages at which to retain one's virginity, it became ever
> more obvious that if I'd been born a woman (or even, for that matter,
> gay), in this one increasingly important respect I'd have been a lot
> better off.


	Except that it's not better off for women in our society (especially if 
you go back decades), and it seems you accepted more of the cultural 
norms of THAT period. Mine was much more "sex comes with marriage, not 
before" and I was a virgin until I married.

> 

> This isn't much like Stephen Russ's story.  Mine included college;
> his ?didn't.  His may have included the military; mine certainly
> didn't.  I sought all sorts of social hobbies; he focused on one.  He
> seems to have stayed in one place; I moved around a lot, although for
> much of my thirties I was actually in my hometown.
> 
> But I think I'd need a lot of evidence to refute this before I'd stop
> believing it:  that unmarried men in their 30s who live near
> minimum wage, all other things equal, have worse social lives than
> well-off teenaged girls.  In general, across the board.  My life, the
> lives I've observed, my reading, all say so.  Hell, my life says even
> a poor teenaged boy has a richer social life than a poor thirtyish
> unmarried man.
> 
> In other words, I think the comparison the character makes is rigged.
> So the book's advice to people like the earlier me boils down to "be
> a rich girl instead".  This is why I'd rather the protagonist had
> decided on pretty much *any* other grounds.

	There's no advice in the book at all.

	The point of _Princess Holy Aura_ was to examine the typical Mahou 
Shoujo setup from a slightly different point of view, and examine the 
CHOICES made *with respect to that particular setup* -- for instance, 
the moral/ethical issues involved with selecting fourteen year old girls 
as your shocktroops in the war against Ultimate Evil.

	The original title of _Princess Holy Aura_ (and still the title of the 
series if/when I continue it) is The Ethical Magical Girl. ("Moral" 
might or might not be a better term, but "Ethical" flows much better). 
The entire FOCUS of the novel is "Do the Right Thing".

	If you take anything in the book as being relevant to real life, it's 
fairly overt -- the position and treatment of young women in society, 
the difficulties of people in lower-class situations, etc.

> 
> Or to put it another way:  if that comparison underlies Holly's
> aversion to Stephen, then it represents a teenaged misjudgement.
> People in their thirties are *supposed* to be uncomfortable if
> unmarried.  So the book's endorsing an alternative is, um, weird
> at best.

	Why are they supposed to be uncomfortable? Why should ANYONE be 
uncomfortable as long as they're not hurting other people? For a long 
time I, and others I knew, was perfectly comfortable not being married. 
Marriage is a big step in responsibility and commitment. If you're not 
up for that, you'll be a LOT more comfortable NOT being married.

> 
>>       Later on you also make a statement... lemme see if I can find the
>> post... here: "...This doesn't have room for
>> their viewpoints, and he doesn't intend any more of this story,"
>>
>>       Not at all. I intend, whenever I can, to continue the story. I set it
>> up that way, after all. If I'd KNOWN for a fact that I'd have sequels,
>> yes, I might have left Holly's resurrection until the next one, but I
>> see a lot of potential for more stories. Part of this is implied in the
>> short story that accompanied the release of _Princess Holy Aura_,
>> "On-Site for the Apocalypse". There's lots to come in that universe.
>> Hopefully I get to write it.
> 
> I misunderstood.  I read <Princess Holy Aura>, then decided I needed
> to know more about your writing (I'd previously read only <Boundary>,
> <Threshold> and <Portal>).  So I read <Digital Knight>, <Grand
> Central Arena>, <Spheres of Influence>, and <Challenges of the Deep>.
> Only in <Challenges> and <Princess> did the book end "FIN", so I took
> that in each case as a declaration of closure.  Glad it's not so.


	Challenges is also only "FIN" in the sense that I'll have to 
Kickstarter it, like sequels to PHA, since Baen isn't paying for more of 
them.

	(the Arenaverse is even more open than the PHA-verse, and that one's 
pretty open)

	Phoenix Ascendant also ends, I think, with FIN, but it's only FIN for 
that trilogy; there's other adventures in that world, and even others 
potentially for Kyri, Tobimar, and Poplock.

	For PHA, did you read the accompanying short story "On-Site for the 
Apocalypse"? Because the main characters in that story will undoubtedly 
be significant characters in the sequel(s) of PHA. "On-Site" also gives 
you a different perspective on some of the events in the novel.




-- 
                      Sea Wasp
                        /^\
                        ;;;	
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com  Blog: 
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

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#500124

I considered mentioning that "manager" in, for instance,
a bagel joint may be not a position that receives great 
respect from co-workers or neighbours.  Relatedly,
some "managers" in <https://notalwaysright.com/working/>
stories achieve that status awfully quickly; also,
many are, practically speaking,  mad, bad, or dangerous 
to know.

To folks who are managers, uh, sorry, but... the mystique
is overestimated.

So, your guy isn't a manager, anyway...

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#500126

On 10/11/18 3:13 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> I considered mentioning that "manager" in, for instance,
> a bagel joint may be not a position that receives great
> respect from co-workers or neighbours.  Relatedly,
> some "managers" in <https://notalwaysright.com/working/>
> stories achieve that status awfully quickly; also,
> many are, practically speaking,  mad, bad, or dangerous
> to know.
> 
> To folks who are managers, uh, sorry, but... the mystique
> is overestimated.
> 
> So, your guy isn't a manager, anyway...
> 


	Yeah, I was going to mention that as well. Even if he WAS a manager, 
it's not a job with big respect in a chain. Wasn't even decades back 
when I was working retail. Yeah, more respect than being one of the 
clerks or backroom workers, but not like owning your own store.


-- 
                      Sea Wasp
                        /^\
                        ;;;	
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com  Blog: 
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

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#500257

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in 
news:ppm2oo$mdd$1@dont-email.me an article to which I do intend to 
reply (and not entirely abjectly), but have found a re-reading 
(*again*) necessary, and it isn't done yet as my computer access is 
about to go away for the night.  On the other hand, the reason for 
abjectness is, of course, that this re-reading has unveiled many 
mistakes of mine, so aside from explaining my uncharacteristic 
slowness in replying, this post is to get some of the mistakes out 
of the way and thus, perhaps, slim down tomorrow's post.

I speculated that Stephen Russ might have military experience I don't.  
If I'd remembered the beginning of chapter 8, I needn't have 
speculated.  He tells his gaming group that his new job is with a 
friend "from my Air Force days".  Now, I know we're supposed to 
believe that he has no friends, and so we can't necessarily trust 
him when he's lying to his gamers *anyway*, but seems to me pretty 
unlikely that they'd know so little about him that they'd accept this 
if he hadn't actually been *in* the Air Force.

Maybe there'll be something in the remainder of the book, but I don't 
expect that.  I think the source of my claim that he managed the 
bagel shop he worked at is probably this from the first page of text:  
"Most days he walked home from Barron's Bagels after cleaning up and 
making sure the shop was set up for the morning crew".  Now, of 
course this *doesn't* actually say he was the manager; but I'm pretty 
sure it's what fueled that conclusion in my mind.  In any event, it's 
been copiously demonstrated that whether or not he was the manager 
he'd be mildly unlikely to find much human contact via work; I don't 
think that needs revisiting.

The book several times relies on his having acting experience, and 
once refers to his having taken care of younger people, which *might* 
just refer to the two teenagers in his gaming group and their 
predecessors, or might, as the acting certainly does, help fill 
the gap between the Air Force and the present.

OK, and the big one.  Chapter 52 very clearly does indeed strongly 
link the protagonist's "decision" to remain a girl to the friendships 
she's built as one.  Her motivation is not at all unclear.  I still 
have problems with it, so I will indeed be posting tomorrow, but the 
series of posts arguing over what drove that "decision" represented 
failure of both memory and reference by everyone involved, except the 
author, and especially by me.

All for now.

Joe Bernstein

-- 
Joe Bernstein                                    <Kdeurama@gmail.com>

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#500261

On 10/12/18 12:25 AM, Joe Bernstein wrote:
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
> news:ppm2oo$mdd$1@dont-email.me an article to which I do intend to
> reply (and not entirely abjectly), but have found a re-reading
> (*again*) necessary, and it isn't done yet as my computer access is
> about to go away for the night.  On the other hand, the reason for
> abjectness is, of course, that this re-reading has unveiled many
> mistakes of mine, so aside from explaining my uncharacteristic
> slowness in replying, this post is to get some of the mistakes out
> of the way and thus, perhaps, slim down tomorrow's post.
> 
> I speculated that Stephen Russ might have military experience I don't.
> If I'd remembered the beginning of chapter 8, I needn't have
> speculated.  He tells his gaming group that his new job is with a
> friend "from my Air Force days".

	Yes. He was in the USAF for a tour of duty (is that 4 years?).

	He has a very few adult friends left, but they are all no longer 
anywhere near where Steve lives. Like my friend Carl Edlund, they're 
across the country. They occasionally exchange phone calls or emails or 
whatever.



> 
> Maybe there'll be something in the remainder of the book, but I don't
> expect that.  I think the source of my claim that he managed the
> bagel shop he worked at is probably this from the first page of text:
> "Most days he walked home from Barron's Bagels after cleaning up and
> making sure the shop was set up for the morning crew".  Now, of
> course this *doesn't* actually say he was the manager; but I'm pretty
> sure it's what fueled that conclusion in my mind.

	This came from my experience working in food retail: the night crew 
makes sure things are set up for the morning crew. The manager may be 
ultimately responsible, but in practice there was That One Guy who 
actually made sure the workers did the work and that the manager relied 
on to check that it was done.



> 
> The book several times relies on his having acting experience, and
> once refers to his having taken care of younger people, which *might*
> just refer to the two teenagers in his gaming group and their
> predecessors, or might, as the acting certainly does, help fill
> the gap between the Air Force and the present.

	It actually refers to children of relatives and such. Acting was 
amateur work in local groups, but that also did not translate to deep 
friendships.

> 
> OK, and the big one.  Chapter 52 very clearly does indeed strongly
> link the protagonist's "decision" to remain a girl to the friendships
> she's built as one.  Her motivation is not at all unclear.  I still
> have problems with it, so I will indeed be posting tomorrow, but the
> series of posts arguing over what drove that "decision" represented
> failure of both memory and reference by everyone involved, except the
> author, and especially by me.
> 

	Well, one would HOPE that an author would have a good grasp of what 
they wrote relatively recently. :)




> 


-- 
                      Sea Wasp
                        /^\
                        ;;;	
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com  Blog: 
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

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#500262

	I'll also note that I have indeed "loaded the dice" or "weighted the 
scales" in the book. To an extent, that's true of EVERY adventure novel. 
There are potentially infinite versions of "The Lord of the Rings" where 
Frodo dies or otherwise fails completely, Sauron gets the Ring, and 
Middle-Earth is plunged into darkness for however long it takes for 
Illuvatar's next savior to show up. This is basically the case for all 
stories: we have chosen to show the universe in which THIS happens and 
not all the infinite THATs which COULD have been.

	In the case of _Princess Holy Aura_, the thumb on the scales is similar 
to that on the scales for _Polychrome_. In both cases the real-life 
analogue of the protagonist had a family -- a wife and at least one 
child. In both cases, that would make the decision to follow the Call of 
Adventure virtually impossible; if they're the good, decent people that 
they MUST be for their adventures, they can't very well run off and 
abandon their lifelong commitments. They have to be free to accept, and 
that comes with a lot of other implications for the story.

	Yes, the call to Adventure conflicting with family obligations can make 
a good story, and one I'm working on, but that wasn't the focus of 
either PHA or Polychrome, so I wasn't going to add that to all the other 
mess.


-- 
                      Sea Wasp
                        /^\
                        ;;;	
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com  Blog: 
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

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#500329

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:59:07 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>
>	I'll also note that I have indeed "loaded the dice" or "weighted the 
>scales" in the book. To an extent, that's true of EVERY adventure novel. 
>There are potentially infinite versions of "The Lord of the Rings" where 
>Frodo dies or otherwise fails completely, Sauron gets the Ring, and 
>Middle-Earth is plunged into darkness for however long it takes for 
>Illuvatar's next savior to show up. This is basically the case for all 
>stories: we have chosen to show the universe in which THIS happens and 
>not all the infinite THATs which COULD have been.
>
>	In the case of _Princess Holy Aura_, the thumb on the scales is similar 
>to that on the scales for _Polychrome_. In both cases the real-life 
>analogue of the protagonist had a family -- a wife and at least one 
>child. In both cases, that would make the decision to follow the Call of 
>Adventure virtually impossible; if they're the good, decent people that 
>they MUST be for their adventures, they can't very well run off and 
>abandon their lifelong commitments. They have to be free to accept, and 
>that comes with a lot of other implications for the story.
>
>	Yes, the call to Adventure conflicting with family obligations can make 
>a good story, and one I'm working on, but that wasn't the focus of 
>either PHA or Polychrome, so I wasn't going to add that to all the other 
>mess.

FWIW, I'm finding that the Pulitzers go to stories about rotten people
being rotten, professional victims being victimized, and idiots being
idiotic.

Maybe the adventurer doesn't _have_ to be good, decent people.

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#500334

On 2018-10-12 6:17 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:59:07 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>>
>> 	I'll also note that I have indeed "loaded the dice" or "weighted the
>> scales" in the book. To an extent, that's true of EVERY adventure novel.
>> There are potentially infinite versions of "The Lord of the Rings" where
>> Frodo dies or otherwise fails completely, Sauron gets the Ring, and
>> Middle-Earth is plunged into darkness for however long it takes for
>> Illuvatar's next savior to show up. This is basically the case for all
>> stories: we have chosen to show the universe in which THIS happens and
>> not all the infinite THATs which COULD have been.
>>
>> 	In the case of _Princess Holy Aura_, the thumb on the scales is similar
>> to that on the scales for _Polychrome_. In both cases the real-life
>> analogue of the protagonist had a family -- a wife and at least one
>> child. In both cases, that would make the decision to follow the Call of
>> Adventure virtually impossible; if they're the good, decent people that
>> they MUST be for their adventures, they can't very well run off and
>> abandon their lifelong commitments. They have to be free to accept, and
>> that comes with a lot of other implications for the story.
>>
>> 	Yes, the call to Adventure conflicting with family obligations can make
>> a good story, and one I'm working on, but that wasn't the focus of
>> either PHA or Polychrome, so I wasn't going to add that to all the other
>> mess.
> 
> FWIW, I'm finding that the Pulitzers go to stories about rotten people
> being rotten, professional victims being victimized, and idiots being
> idiotic.

And that is why "Pulitzer Prize Winning" is a label to avoid.

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#500344

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>        I'll also note that I have indeed "loaded the dice" or "weighted the
> scales" in the book. To an extent, that's true of EVERY adventure novel.
> There are potentially infinite versions of "The Lord of the Rings" where
> Frodo dies or otherwise fails completely, Sauron gets the Ring, and
> Middle-Earth is plunged into darkness for however long it takes for
> Illuvatar's next savior to show up. This is basically the case for all
> stories: we have chosen to show the universe in which THIS happens and
> not all the infinite THATs which COULD have been.
>
>        In the case of _Princess Holy Aura_, the thumb on the scales is similar

> to that on the scales for _Polychrome_. In both cases the real-life
> analogue of the protagonist had a family -- a wife and at least one
> child. In both cases, that would make the decision to follow the Call of
> Adventure virtually impossible; if they're the good, decent people that
> they MUST be for their adventures, they can't very well run off and
> abandon their lifelong commitments. They have to be free to accept, and
> that comes with a lot of other implications for the story.
>
>        Yes, the call to Adventure conflicting with family obligations can make
> a good story, and one I'm working on, but that wasn't the focus of
> either PHA or Polychrome, so I wasn't going to add that to all the other
> mess.

Raising kids is hard work. It's a full time job. The only adventure 
available to good parents is providing care to their kids each day.
    Parents who prioritize adventure must ditch their kids first.
_Hollywood, Interrupted_ (Breitbart) reveals that some adventurous 
Hollywood celebrities ditch their kids with a full-time governess. (The 
kids bond with their governess, who eventually subsumes the role of 
parent.)
    Some fiction works the same manner. _The Last Command_ (Zahn) has
Councilor "Leia" Organa Solo ditch her twins with Winter, a governess in
fact, if not in name.
    Although an governess provides a prestigious kid ditch, an author
can also go down-market. _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress)_ (RAH) uses
crèches as a kid ditch.

✍

Thank you,

-- 
Don

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#500378

On Saturday, 13 October 2018 03:50:17 UTC+1, D B Davis  wrote:
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> >
> >        I'll also note that I have indeed "loaded the dice" or "weighted the
> > scales" in the book. To an extent, that's true of EVERY adventure novel.
> > There are potentially infinite versions of "The Lord of the Rings" where
> > Frodo dies or otherwise fails completely, Sauron gets the Ring, and
> > Middle-Earth is plunged into darkness for however long it takes for
> > Illuvatar's next savior to show up. This is basically the case for all
> > stories: we have chosen to show the universe in which THIS happens and
> > not all the infinite THATs which COULD have been.
> >
> >        In the case of _Princess Holy Aura_, the thumb on the scales is similar
> 
> > to that on the scales for _Polychrome_. In both cases the real-life
> > analogue of the protagonist had a family -- a wife and at least one
> > child. In both cases, that would make the decision to follow the Call of
> > Adventure virtually impossible; if they're the good, decent people that
> > they MUST be for their adventures, they can't very well run off and
> > abandon their lifelong commitments. They have to be free to accept, and
> > that comes with a lot of other implications for the story.
> >
> >        Yes, the call to Adventure conflicting with family obligations can make
> > a good story, and one I'm working on, but that wasn't the focus of
> > either PHA or Polychrome, so I wasn't going to add that to all the other
> > mess.
> 
> Raising kids is hard work. It's a full time job. The only adventure 
> available to good parents is providing care to their kids each day.
>     Parents who prioritize adventure must ditch their kids first.
> _Hollywood, Interrupted_ (Breitbart) reveals that some adventurous 
> Hollywood celebrities ditch their kids with a full-time governess. (The 
> kids bond with their governess, who eventually subsumes the role of 
> parent.)
>     Some fiction works the same manner. _The Last Command_ (Zahn) has
> Councilor "Leia" Organa Solo ditch her twins with Winter, a governess in
> fact, if not in name.
>     Although an governess provides a prestigious kid ditch, an author
> can also go down-market. _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress)_ (RAH) uses
> crèches as a kid ditch.

Of course one partner can stay with the kids.  I heard a radio
interview with a guy who goes on Scott-of-the-Antarctic type
expeditions (but usually makes it back), and his wife.
I don't say there wasn't tension.

And there's soldiers, cops, TV weather reporters - several
dangerous professions.

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#500395

Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, 13 October 2018 03:50:17 UTC+1, D B Davis  wrote:
>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >        I'll also note that I have indeed "loaded the dice" or "weighted the
>> > scales" in the book. To an extent, that's true of EVERY adventure novel.
>> > There are potentially infinite versions of "The Lord of the Rings" where
>> > Frodo dies or otherwise fails completely, Sauron gets the Ring, and
>> > Middle-Earth is plunged into darkness for however long it takes for
>> > Illuvatar's next savior to show up. This is basically the case for all
>> > stories: we have chosen to show the universe in which THIS happens and
>> > not all the infinite THATs which COULD have been.
>> >
>> >        In the case of _Princess Holy Aura_, the thumb on the scales is similar
>>
>> > to that on the scales for _Polychrome_. In both cases the real-life
>> > analogue of the protagonist had a family -- a wife and at least one
>> > child. In both cases, that would make the decision to follow the Call of
>> > Adventure virtually impossible; if they're the good, decent people that
>> > they MUST be for their adventures, they can't very well run off and
>> > abandon their lifelong commitments. They have to be free to accept, and
>> > that comes with a lot of other implications for the story.
>> >
>> >        Yes, the call to Adventure conflicting with family obligations can make
>> > a good story, and one I'm working on, but that wasn't the focus of
>> > either PHA or Polychrome, so I wasn't going to add that to all the other
>> > mess.
>>
>> Raising kids is hard work. It's a full time job. The only adventure
>> available to good parents is providing care to their kids each day.
>>     Parents who prioritize adventure must ditch their kids first.
>> _Hollywood, Interrupted_ (Breitbart) reveals that some adventurous
>> Hollywood celebrities ditch their kids with a full-time governess. (The
>> kids bond with their governess, who eventually subsumes the role of
>> parent.)
>>     Some fiction works the same manner. _The Last Command_ (Zahn) has
>> Councilor "Leia" Organa Solo ditch her twins with Winter, a governess in
>> fact, if not in name.
>>     Although an governess provides a prestigious kid ditch, an author
>> can also go down-market. _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress)_ (RAH) uses
>> crèches as a kid ditch.
>
> Of course one partner can stay with the kids.  I heard a radio
> interview with a guy who goes on Scott-of-the-Antarctic type
> expeditions (but usually makes it back), and his wife.
> I don't say there wasn't tension.
>
> And there's soldiers, cops, TV weather reporters - several
> dangerous professions.

The mom kid ditch may be the most the common, closely followed by the
grandparent kid ditch. Babies bring a lot of politics to this area
because babies are most adorable, which makes moms most possessive. One 
of my "jokes" in reference to newborns is that if humans were born as 
fully formed teenagers, humanity would end in a single generation.
    The north face of mountains in the northern hemisphere are colder
and icier than the south face. (Hillary climbed the south face of
Everest in 1953.)
    That's why Douglas Tompkins named his company The North Face. 
Tompkins died a few years ago when his kayak capsized in Patagonia (a 
name you see on athletic gear). Tompkins' wife divorced him years before
his demise; not because he used her as a kid ditch, but because he was a 
crazy adventurous death defying dare-devil.

✍

Thank you,

-- 
Don

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#500390

On 2018-10-13, D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> wrote:
>     Parents who prioritize adventure must ditch their kids first.

And of course in all too many SF stories, kids who prioritize adventure must
ditch their parents first.

Dave, one way or another
-- 
\/David	DeLaney	posting	thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that	grows the flower
It's not the clock that	slows the hour 	The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is	all it takes to	make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE	HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible	:( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

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#500400

David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 2018-10-13, D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>     Parents who prioritize adventure must ditch their kids first.
>
> And of course in all too many SF stories, kids who prioritize adventure must
> ditch their parents first.
>
> Dave, one way or another

Within limits, it's generally healthy for teenagers to prioritize 
adventure and ditch their parents from time to time. That way, teenagers 
become more independent and more prepared to leave the nest, so to 
speak.
    It seems to me with my limited knowledge of YA SF is that it tends 
to take things to extremes for adventure's sake. In this way YA SF may 
mentally prepare teenage readers to face the more mundane rigors of 
their own life on their own.

✍

Thank you,

-- 
Don

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#500401

On 10/13/18 10:29 AM, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2018-10-13, D B Davis <g@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>      Parents who prioritize adventure must ditch their kids first.
> 
> And of course in all too many SF stories, kids who prioritize adventure must
> ditch their parents first.
> 


	True, but in many of those that's part of the ATTRACTION of the 
adventure: independence, being one's own person and not under the 
control of the parents who have been dominating your life (for good or 
ill) for all your existence.

	In the case of PHA and Polychrome, the issue is that the character is 
supposed to be chosen at least partly because they meet some moral 
standards, and "running off and ditching wife and kid for adventure" is 
going to make that really hard to believe. (Even if you do the 
stereotypical thing of making the spouse intolerably nasty, you can't 
run off and leave a kid without looking pretty bad)


-- 
                      Sea Wasp
                        /^\
                        ;;;	
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com  Blog: 
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

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#500555

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in 
news:ppt3ne$1ki$1@dont-email.me:

> the issue is that the character is 
> supposed to be chosen at least partly because they meet some moral 
> standards, and "running off and ditching wife and kid for adventure" 
> is going to make that really hard to believe. (Even if you do the 
> stereotypical thing of making the spouse intolerably nasty, you 
> can't run off and leave a kid without looking pretty bad)

There are other possibilities (though not in the case of one of the 
books you named [1], and perhaps not in the other).

I've repeatedly praised Patricia Wrede's <Caught in Crystal> here for 
having its woman protagonist bring the kids along.  Nancy Kress's 
<The White Pipes> I have more mixed feelings about, and anyway its 
protagonist doesn't go seeking adventure, thriller comes and finds 
her - but her kid is present there too.

This raises the question what about fathers?  Well, I'm just about 
positive I've read father and son a few times, but am not coming up 
with specific stories.  Um.  Somewhere in Darkover, no?  Maybe <The 
Winds of> ?  Surely also in more traditional sf.  At the other 
extreme, does <The Road> count here?  Not so much father and daughter, 
that I recall, but we've already established that my memory is weak 
here.

The only spec-fic book I can think of that focuses on both parents 
and kids in a more or less intact family is <Lifelode> by Jo Walton.

Separately, what if the kid is kidnapped?  See Kirsten Imani Kasai's 
<Icesong>, at least.

It's *very* possible that I'm remembering wrong, but I *think* the 
protagonist of <Moonwise> has a kid whom she leaves with someone 
before going on her quest.  Is this OK for a mother to do where it 
wouldn't be OK for a father?

What if the kids are all off at fostering or boarding school or 
journeyman journeying or whatever?  At one extreme this is late in 
another of Kress's early books.

Joe Bernstein

[1] But what happens to, um, a book that certainly *isn't* <Princess 
Holy Aura> if Stephen Russ has a wife, not in name only, *and* a 
fourteen-year-old daughter?
   It would be way too melodramatic to have his hitherto unmentioned 
daughter show up in the second book and find out that her long-lost 
father is now, um, her peer.

-- 
Joe Bernstein                                    <Kdeurama@gmail.com>

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#500557

On Sun, 14 Oct 2018 21:50:43 -0000 (UTC), Joe Bernstein
<Kdeurama@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in 
>news:ppt3ne$1ki$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> the issue is that the character is 
>> supposed to be chosen at least partly because they meet some moral 
>> standards, and "running off and ditching wife and kid for adventure" 
>> is going to make that really hard to believe. (Even if you do the 
>> stereotypical thing of making the spouse intolerably nasty, you 
>> can't run off and leave a kid without looking pretty bad)
>
>There are other possibilities (though not in the case of one of the 
>books you named [1], and perhaps not in the other).
>
>I've repeatedly praised Patricia Wrede's <Caught in Crystal> here for 
>having its woman protagonist bring the kids along.  Nancy Kress's 
><The White Pipes> I have more mixed feelings about, and anyway its 
>protagonist doesn't go seeking adventure, thriller comes and finds 
>her - but her kid is present there too.
>
>This raises the question what about fathers?  Well, I'm just about 
>positive I've read father and son a few times, but am not coming up 
>with specific stories.  Um.  Somewhere in Darkover, no?  Maybe <The 
>Winds of> ?  Surely also in more traditional sf.  At the other 
>extreme, does <The Road> count here?  Not so much father and daughter, 
>that I recall, but we've already established that my memory is weak 
>here.

"The Road" is father and son, but it's not "having an adventure" it is
post-apocalyptic survival written at the level of a fan-created
side-quest in Fallout, which, for some reason, the Pulitzer committee
beleived was actually a good story.  They seem to be traveling from
somewhere to somewhere without any reason that is made clear in the
story but one has the impression that they have been forced to it by
circumstances beyond their control.

>The only spec-fic book I can think of that focuses on both parents 
>and kids in a more or less intact family is <Lifelode> by Jo Walton.
>
>Separately, what if the kid is kidnapped?  See Kirsten Imani Kasai's 
><Icesong>, at least.
>
>It's *very* possible that I'm remembering wrong, but I *think* the 
>protagonist of <Moonwise> has a kid whom she leaves with someone 
>before going on her quest.  Is this OK for a mother to do where it 
>wouldn't be OK for a father?
>
>What if the kids are all off at fostering or boarding school or 
>journeyman journeying or whatever?  At one extreme this is late in 
>another of Kress's early books.
>
>Joe Bernstein
>
>[1] But what happens to, um, a book that certainly *isn't* <Princess 
>Holy Aura> if Stephen Russ has a wife, not in name only, *and* a 
>fourteen-year-old daughter?
>   It would be way too melodramatic to have his hitherto unmentioned 
>daughter show up in the second book and find out that her long-lost 
>father is now, um, her peer.

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#500558

Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
> news:ppt3ne$1ki$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> the issue is that the character is
>> supposed to be chosen at least partly because they meet some moral
>> standards, and "running off and ditching wife and kid for adventure"
>> is going to make that really hard to believe. (Even if you do the
>> stereotypical thing of making the spouse intolerably nasty, you
>> can't run off and leave a kid without looking pretty bad)
>
> There are other possibilities (though not in the case of one of the
> books you named [1], and perhaps not in the other).
>
> I've repeatedly praised Patricia Wrede's <Caught in Crystal> here for
> having its woman protagonist bring the kids along.  Nancy Kress's
> <The White Pipes> I have more mixed feelings about, and anyway its
> protagonist doesn't go seeking adventure, thriller comes and finds
> her - but her kid is present there too.
>
> This raises the question what about fathers?  Well, I'm just about
> positive I've read father and son a few times, but am not coming up
> with specific stories.  Um.  Somewhere in Darkover, no?  Maybe <The
> Winds of> ?  Surely also in more traditional sf.  At the other
> extreme, does <The Road> count here?  Not so much father and daughter,
> that I recall, but we've already established that my memory is weak
> here.
>
> The only spec-fic book I can think of that focuses on both parents
> and kids in a more or less intact family is <Lifelode> by Jo Walton.
>
> Separately, what if the kid is kidnapped?  See Kirsten Imani Kasai's
> <Icesong>, at least.
>
> It's *very* possible that I'm remembering wrong, but I *think* the
> protagonist of <Moonwise> has a kid whom she leaves with someone
> before going on her quest.  Is this OK for a mother to do where it
> wouldn't be OK for a father?
>
> What if the kids are all off at fostering or boarding school or
> journeyman journeying or whatever?  At one extreme this is late in
> another of Kress's early books.

Kids eventually join their father on an adventure in _Wrinkle in Time_
(L'Engle). A mother and her daughter /start/ an adventure at the /end/
of "The Women Men Don't See" (Tiptree).

✍

Thank you,

-- 
Don

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#500562

Officially, _Lone Wolf and Cub_ (with human characters) isn't 
speculative fiction, except that the hero is basically Wolverine.
(Who came later, though, so, y'know.)

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#500573

Joe Bernstein <Kdeurama@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>This raises the question what about fathers?  Well, I'm just about 
>positive I've read father and son a few times, but am not coming up 
>with specific stories.  Um.  Somewhere in Darkover, no?  Maybe <The 
>Winds of> ?  Surely also in more traditional sf. 

Well, we have Anton Zilwicky.  We're introduced to him as a bit player
as his wife saves the day while dying heroically.

In his second story, his daughter gets kidnapped.  In resolving that,
he ends up adopting two more kids.

But that doesn't end his trasformation from embassy spy to
deep-penetration "adventuring" spy (presumed dead in one of several
nuclear blasts, for example.)

The kids seem to be raised by his billionaire not-quite-wife while
he's away.
-- 
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

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#500583

On 10/14/18 2:50 PM, Joe Bernstein wrote:

> The only spec-fic book I can think of that focuses on both parents
> and kids in a more or less intact family is <Lifelode> by Jo Walton.

Heinlein's juveniles are rife with intact families, although several 
failed families are also featured.

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