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YASID: General Public learns of magic

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  YASID: General Public learns of magic tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2016-11-23 17:53 -0800
    Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2016-11-23 17:55 -0800
      Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-11-23 18:14 -0800
        Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-11-23 21:28 -0500
      Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2016-11-23 18:28 -0800
        Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2016-11-23 18:43 -0800
        Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-11-24 04:46 +0000
      Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> - 2016-11-23 18:30 -0800
        Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-11-24 18:23 +0000
          Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-11-25 11:58 -0500
            Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-11-25 10:10 -0800
              Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2016-11-25 10:59 -0800
              Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-11-28 05:44 +0000
            Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic tsbrueni@gmail.com - 2016-11-25 11:03 -0800
              Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic peterwezeman@hotmail.com - 2016-11-25 18:07 -0800
                Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-11-26 13:39 -0500
            Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-11-26 06:07 -0800
    Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-11-23 22:42 -0500
    Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2016-11-23 23:01 -0600
      Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-11-24 05:07 +0000
        Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2016-11-24 09:51 -0600
          Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-11-24 08:17 -0800
            Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-11-24 18:55 -0800
              Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-11-25 09:31 -0800
              Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-11-25 09:54 -0800
    Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-11-26 19:55 +0000
      Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-11-27 04:17 -0500
        Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@sometimes.sessile.org> - 2016-11-27 11:50 +0000
          Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Kay Shapero <kay@invalid.net> - 2016-12-08 23:18 -0800
            Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-12-11 17:01 -0500
              Re: YASID: General Public learns of magic Kay Shapero <kay@invalid.net> - 2016-12-14 20:28 -0800

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#458047 — YASID: General Public learns of magic

The general public learns of magic.

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#458049

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 12:53:12 PM UTC+11, tsbr...@gmail.com wrote:
> The general public learns of magic.

Needs a metric tonne more info than that.

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#458051

On Thursday, 24 November 2016 01:55:02 UTC, hamis...@gmail.com  wrote:
> On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 12:53:12 PM UTC+11, tsbr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The general public learns of magic.
> 
> Needs a metric tonne more info than that.

I think it's a coded question about the Harry Potter books -
where there is a "Minister for Magic", presumably technically
serving the monarch although this is only implicit, 
and very rarely even known to exist by the un-magical
officers of the government.  At least - I don't remember
if they are introduced to each "Prime Minister".
After all, the magical population are basically in hiding -
although this just takes a spell here and there and
is not particularly difficult when wandering around
London or broomsticking over it... but still, hiding.

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#458054

In article <bd075064-4f5a-4ee5-bbfa-607c1b820aa9
@googlegroups.com>, rja.carnegie@excite.com 
says...
> 
> On Thursday, 24 November 2016 01:55:02 UTC, hamis...@gmail.com  wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 12:53:12 PM UTC+11, tsbr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > The general public learns of magic.
> > 
> > Needs a metric tonne more info than that.
> 
> I think it's a coded question about the Harry Potter books -
> where there is a "Minister for Magic", presumably technically
> serving the monarch although this is only implicit, 
> and very rarely even known to exist by the un-magical
> officers of the government.  At least - I don't remember
> if they are introduced to each "Prime Minister".
> After all, the magical population are basically in hiding -
> although this just takes a spell here and there and
> is not particularly difficult when wandering around
> London or broomsticking over it... but still, hiding.

In the Potterverse US laws are apparently 
different--I don't believe we have seen 
contemporary US laws though, just the ones from 
the '20s.

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#458053

On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 5:55:02 PM UTC-8, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 12:53:12 PM UTC+11, tsbr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The general public learns of magic.
> 
> Needs a metric tonne more info than that.

I don't have any information.  I just want to know if there are any SF books in which the general public learns of the existence of magic.

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#458059

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 1:28:19 PM UTC+11, tsbr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 5:55:02 PM UTC-8, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 12:53:12 PM UTC+11, tsbr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > The general public learns of magic.
> > 
> > Needs a metric tonne more info than that.
> 
> I don't have any information.  I just want to know if there are any SF books in which the general public learns of the existence of magic.


If you mean Speculative Fiction then bucketloads. 
Any Urban Fantasy where magic is in the open

if you mean science fiction depends where you draw the line on science fiction and magic. A lot of science fiction has psychic powers, does that qualify as magic?

There are a lot of novels based in the Shadowrun RPG world which is cyberpunk with magic.

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#458066

In article <2461efc1-f589-4b7e-9ae9-e5a6c90ac72a@googlegroups.com>,
 <tsbrueni@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 5:55:02 PM UTC-8, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 12:53:12 PM UTC+11, tsbr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > The general public learns of magic.
>> 
>> Needs a metric tonne more info than that.
>
>I don't have any information.  I just want to know if there are any SF
>books in which the general public learns of the existence of magic.

Quite a lot of Urban Fantasy.

I forget which series, but in one the US government becomes aware
of the supernatural, anyway, when the Secret Service has to stake
Marilyn Monroe as she attempts to "turn" JFK.

At some point in Caine's Weather Warden series the fallout becomes
to great to hide and the Wardens get, I think, a UN mandate.

In Nuttall's Royal Sorceress series, the 18th cent UK government
keeps a sorcery corps though I can't recall exactly how long before
they learned about magic.

In Henwick's "Bite Back" series one of the major onging plot arcs
is the supernats putting out feelers to the Federal government
as they plan to emerge into public.  At this point it's definitely
known at some high levels, though it may still be compartmentalized.
-- 
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

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#458056

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 12:55:02 PM UTC+11, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 12:53:12 PM UTC+11, tsbr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The general public learns of magic.
> 
> Needs a metric tonne more info than that.

I don't think he's asking a YASID as such.

Rather, he's asking for examples of stories where a) magic exists; b) it's hidden from the general public; and c) the general public finds out about it.

Bending the definition of magic a bit, I think Ken Grimwood's "Replay" counts. In one iteration, the protaganists go public with their time travelling / body swapping / whatever the hell is happening to them. Things do not go well.

-Moriarty

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#458098

Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 12:55:02 PM UTC+11, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 12:53:12 PM UTC+11, tsbr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > The general public learns of magic.
>>
>> Needs a metric tonne more info than that.
>
> I don't think he's asking a YASID as such.
>
> Rather, he's asking for examples of stories where a) magic exists; b)
> it's hidden from the general public; and c) the general public finds
> out about it.
>
> Bending the definition of magic a bit, I think Ken Grimwood's "Replay"
> counts. In one iteration, the protaganists go public with their time
> travelling / body swapping / whatever the hell is happening to them.
> Things do not go well.

spoiler space


After a few political predictions come true the establishments place the
couple of protagonists into government housing and keep them under
constant surveillance. The establishments disbelieve the couple's story
about recurrent mental time travel to earlier points in their lives.
There's a wisp of innuendo that at least one establishment wants to
simply kill the couple in order to eliminate the couple's clairvoyance
threat to the established social order.

That seems to be the way of it with clairvoyance in stories. You travel
back into time with the knowledge of JFK's impending assassination, for
instance. Just as soon as you try to warn people of it they either put
you into jail for planning to assassinate or they put you into a mental
institution.

_Too Many Magicians_ (Garrett) is an alternate history story with magic
out in the open. But it fails to meet the OP's criteria because the
general public always knew about magic IIRC.

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms
industry is new in the American experience. We must guard against the
acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by
the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise
of misplaced power exists and will persist. - Eisenhower

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#458132

In article <20161124a@crcomp.net>,
Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> said:

> That seems to be the way of it with clairvoyance in stories. You
> travel back into time with the knowledge of JFK's impending
> assassination, for instance. Just as soon as you try to warn
> people of it they either put you into jail for planning to
> assassinate or they put you into a mental institution.

The 1980s iteration of "The Twilight Zone" had a story, "Profile in
Silver" (written by J. Neil Schulman) in which a time traveler, a
Harvard historian and direct Kennedy-descendant, prevented the
assassination in Dallas[1]. Then the local universe began reacting
badly to the reality excursion and eventually the guy had to make it
right[2].

-----------
 *0: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734727

 *1: He planned on only observing and recording it with device
     disguised as a Zapruder-type 8mm camera, but at the last
     instant he just couldn't stop himself from interfering.

 *2: By substituting himself for JFK at the instant just before the
     headshot hit, while shunting the real one into his spot in
     the future[3]. The last scene was Kennedy giving a speech at
     Harvard in 2172.

 *3: Personally I think the producers erred in not using the same
     actor, made up differently, for both Kennedy and his
     descendant. You can get away with an actor who's portraying a
     historical character not looking exactly like that person, but
     trying to convince an audience that two different actors look
     enough alike that a switch could be made without anyone
     catching it, even when the phony only appears to witnesses as a
     disfigured corpse, can be too much of a stretch.

-- wds

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#458137

On Friday, 25 November 2016 16:58:06 UTC, William December Starr  wrote:
> In article <20161124a@crcomp.net>,
> Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> said:
> 
> > That seems to be the way of it with clairvoyance in stories. You
> > travel back into time with the knowledge of JFK's impending
> > assassination, for instance. Just as soon as you try to warn
> > people of it they either put you into jail for planning to
> > assassinate or they put you into a mental institution.
> 
> The 1980s iteration of "The Twilight Zone" had a story, "Profile in
> Silver" (written by J. Neil Schulman) in which a time traveler, a
> Harvard historian and direct Kennedy-descendant, prevented the
> assassination in Dallas[1]. Then the local universe began reacting
> badly to the reality excursion and eventually the guy had to make it
> right[2].
> 
> -----------
>  *0: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734727
> 
>  *1: He planned on only observing and recording it with device
>      disguised as a Zapruder-type 8mm camera, but at the last
>      instant he just couldn't stop himself from interfering.
> 
>  *2: By substituting himself for JFK at the instant just before the
>      headshot hit, while shunting the real one into his spot in
>      the future[3]. The last scene was Kennedy giving a speech at
>      Harvard in 2172.
> 
>  *3: Personally I think the producers erred in not using the same
>      actor, made up differently, for both Kennedy and his
>      descendant. You can get away with an actor who's portraying a
>      historical character not looking exactly like that person, but
>      trying to convince an audience that two different actors look
>      enough alike that a switch could be made without anyone
>      catching it, even when the phony only appears to witnesses as a
>      disfigured corpse, can be too much of a stretch.

I suppose it depends if Mrs. Kennedy is in on it.

JFK probably had full medical records on file, but
perhaps not accessible on the day - when they wouldn't
be much use except for identification.  But that seems
to be covered.

A story would have to be fanfic to include all of 
the aliens and time travellers showing up at that 
time and place in various stories...  and probably 
not worth it, just for that.

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#458139

On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 10:10:50 AM UTC-8, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Friday, 25 November 2016 16:58:06 UTC, William December Starr  wrote:
> > In article <20161124a@crcomp.net>,
> > Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> said:
> > 
> > > That seems to be the way of it with clairvoyance in stories. You
> > > travel back into time with the knowledge of JFK's impending
> > > assassination, for instance. Just as soon as you try to warn
> > > people of it they either put you into jail for planning to
> > > assassinate or they put you into a mental institution.
> > 
> > The 1980s iteration of "The Twilight Zone" had a story, "Profile in
> > Silver" (written by J. Neil Schulman) in which a time traveler, a
> > Harvard historian and direct Kennedy-descendant, prevented the
> > assassination in Dallas[1]. Then the local universe began reacting
> > badly to the reality excursion and eventually the guy had to make it
> > right[2].
> > 
> > -----------
> >  *0: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734727
> > 
> >  *1: He planned on only observing and recording it with device
> >      disguised as a Zapruder-type 8mm camera, but at the last
> >      instant he just couldn't stop himself from interfering.
> > 
> >  *2: By substituting himself for JFK at the instant just before the
> >      headshot hit, while shunting the real one into his spot in
> >      the future[3]. The last scene was Kennedy giving a speech at
> >      Harvard in 2172.
> > 
> >  *3: Personally I think the producers erred in not using the same
> >      actor, made up differently, for both Kennedy and his
> >      descendant. You can get away with an actor who's portraying a
> >      historical character not looking exactly like that person, but
> >      trying to convince an audience that two different actors look
> >      enough alike that a switch could be made without anyone
> >      catching it, even when the phony only appears to witnesses as a
> >      disfigured corpse, can be too much of a stretch.
> 
> I suppose it depends if Mrs. Kennedy is in on it.
> 
> JFK probably had full medical records on file, but
> perhaps not accessible on the day - when they wouldn't
> be much use except for identification.  But that seems
> to be covered.
> 
> A story would have to be fanfic to include all of 
> the aliens and time travellers showing up at that 
> time and place in various stories...  and probably 
> not worth it, just for that.

Shroud of Sorrow: The Doctor and Clara show up in Dallas the day after to deal with an alien who is feasting on Humanity sorrow.

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#458321

Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
> On Friday, 25 November 2016 16:58:06 UTC, William December Starr  wrote:
>> In article <20161124a@crcomp.net>,
>> Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> said:
>>
>> > That seems to be the way of it with clairvoyance in stories. You
>> > travel back into time with the knowledge of JFK's impending
>> > assassination, for instance. Just as soon as you try to warn
>> > people of it they either put you into jail for planning to
>> > assassinate or they put you into a mental institution.
>>
>> The 1980s iteration of "The Twilight Zone" had a story, "Profile in
>> Silver" (written by J. Neil Schulman) in which a time traveler, a
>> Harvard historian and direct Kennedy-descendant, prevented the
>> assassination in Dallas[1]. Then the local universe began reacting
>> badly to the reality excursion and eventually the guy had to make it
>> right[2].
>>
>> -----------
>>  *0: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734727
>>
>>  *1: He planned on only observing and recording it with device
>>      disguised as a Zapruder-type 8mm camera, but at the last
>>      instant he just couldn't stop himself from interfering.
>>
>>  *2: By substituting himself for JFK at the instant just before the
>>      headshot hit, while shunting the real one into his spot in
>>      the future[3]. The last scene was Kennedy giving a speech at
>>      Harvard in 2172.
>>
>>  *3: Personally I think the producers erred in not using the same
>>      actor, made up differently, for both Kennedy and his
>>      descendant. You can get away with an actor who's portraying a
>>      historical character not looking exactly like that person, but
>>      trying to convince an audience that two different actors look
>>      enough alike that a switch could be made without anyone
>>      catching it, even when the phony only appears to witnesses as a
>>      disfigured corpse, can be too much of a stretch.
>
> I suppose it depends if Mrs. Kennedy is in on it.
>
> JFK probably had full medical records on file, but
> perhaps not accessible on the day - when they wouldn't
> be much use except for identification.  But that seems
> to be covered.
>
> A story would have to be fanfic to include all of
> the aliens and time travellers showing up at that
> time and place in various stories...  and probably
> not worth it, just for that.

youtube hosts many copies of "Profile in Silver." [1] The last Kennedy,
the one who knows about the time traveler, travels to the future. But
there's at least one more Kennedy. That's the Kennedy who's bumped out
of the Lincoln (AKA "The Beast" [2]) immediately before the
assassination.

Although the TZ episode originally ignored the second Kennedy's fate, it
turns out that the many-worlds interpretation (MWI) of quantum mechanics
[3] resolves the paradox. MWI enables the second Kennedy to continue on
in a parallel world, where he still takes a bullet.

Note.

1. https://www.google.com/search?q=profile+in+silver+site:youtube.com
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_state_car_(United_States)
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation#Time_travel

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however
improbable, must be the truth. - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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#458140

On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 8:58:06 AM UTC-8, William December Starr wrote:
> In article <20161124a@crcomp.net>,
> Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> said:
> 
> > That seems to be the way of it with clairvoyance in stories. You
> > travel back into time with the knowledge of JFK's impending
> > assassination, for instance. Just as soon as you try to warn
> > people of it they either put you into jail for planning to
> > assassinate or they put you into a mental institution.
> 
> The 1980s iteration of "The Twilight Zone" had a story, "Profile in
> Silver" (written by J. Neil Schulman) in which a time traveler, a
> Harvard historian and direct Kennedy-descendant, prevented the
> assassination in Dallas[1]. Then the local universe began reacting
> badly to the reality excursion and eventually the guy had to make it
> right[2].

How did the bad universal reaction manifest itself?

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#458152

On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 1:03:19 PM UTC-6, tsbr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 8:58:06 AM UTC-8, William December Starr wrote:
> > In article <20161124a@crcomp.net>,
> > Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> said:
> > 
> > > That seems to be the way of it with clairvoyance in stories. You
> > > travel back into time with the knowledge of JFK's impending
> > > assassination, for instance. Just as soon as you try to warn
> > > people of it they either put you into jail for planning to
> > > assassinate or they put you into a mental institution.
> > 
> > The 1980s iteration of "The Twilight Zone" had a story, "Profile in
> > Silver" (written by J. Neil Schulman) in which a time traveler, a
> > Harvard historian and direct Kennedy-descendant, prevented the
> > assassination in Dallas[1]. Then the local universe began reacting
> > badly to the reality excursion and eventually the guy had to make it
> > right[2].
> 
> How did the bad universal reaction manifest itself?

Severe storms.

Peter Wezeman

anti-social Darwinist

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#458181

In article <e315379c-a7f3-4585-9e4f-58589493f320@googlegroups.com>,
peterwezeman@hotmail.com said:

> tsbr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> William December Starr wrote:
>>
>>> The 1980s iteration of "The Twilight Zone" had a story, "Profile in
>>> Silver" (written by J. Neil Schulman) in which a time traveler, a
>>> Harvard historian and direct Kennedy-descendant, prevented the
>>> assassination in Dallas[1]. Then the local universe began reacting
>>> badly to the reality excursion and eventually the guy had to make it
>>> right[2].
>> 
>> How did the bad universal reaction manifest itself?
>
> Severe storms.

Yes: "Tornadoes? What tornadoes?" -- approximate quote from the
time-traveler about an hour after he prevented the assassination.

And, there was another time-traveler involved peripherally in the
story, a fellow historian from his era, but after all these years I
can't remember whether she appeared during all this to explicitly
tell him that the "nice going hero, you broke the universe" shit was
going to keep getting worse, or if he merely surmised that for himself.

-- wds

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#458170

In article <o19qiq$m45$1@panix2.panix.com>,
 wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:

> The 1980s iteration of "The Twilight Zone" had a story, "Profile in
> Silver" (written by J. Neil Schulman) in which a time traveler, a
> Harvard historian and direct Kennedy-descendant, prevented the
> assassination in Dallas[1]. Then the local universe began reacting
> badly to the reality excursion and eventually the guy had to make it
> right[2].

Rather similar to the core doings in King's 11-22-63. Time-traveling to 
stop the assassination (with lots of (mis)adventures along the way due 
to "The Past" being "obdurate" about changes) turns the world into a 
dystopia, including lots of evidence that the planet is actually gonna 
shake itself into being an asteroid belt soon. (With "soon" being fairly 
strongly implied to be 20 years or so, probably less)

Like your guy, King's eventually decides that, however much he hates the 
idea, he has no choice but to put things back the way they were.

-- 
Brought to you by the letter K and the number .357
Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.

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#458062

On 11/23/16 8:53 PM, tsbrueni@gmail.com wrote:
> The general public learns of magic.
>

	Many. My own _Paradigms Lost_ has the lid blown off the supernatural in 
the section titled _Photo Finish_ and as time goes on more details come 
out in public (most notably in the section titled _Trial Run_).

	Also happens in my forthcoming _Princess Holy Aura_.


-- 
                      Sea Wasp
                        /^\
                        ;;;	
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com  Blog: 
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

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#458069

On 11/23/2016 7:53 PM, tsbrueni@gmail.com wrote:
> The general public learns of magic.

The Hollows series.
    https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Witch-Walking-Kim-Harrison/dp/0060572965/

The public learns about magic when the tomatoes become poisonous to the 
general public and magical beings do not suffer.

Lynn

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#458071

In article <o15s5p$263$1@dont-email.me>,
Lynn McGuire  <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 11/23/2016 7:53 PM, tsbrueni@gmail.com wrote:
>> The general public learns of magic.
>
>The Hollows series.
>    https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Witch-Walking-Kim-Harrison/dp/0060572965/
>
>The public learns about magic when the tomatoes become poisonous to the 
>general public and magical beings do not suffer.
>
>Lynn
>

I guess it's kind of a question of that "magic" is too.  For instance,
even though I was thinking about it today, _Hell On High_ didn't come
to mind as an answer since that's angels & demons.  I mean, they have
"powers" but is that "magic"?
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