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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #452064 > unrolled thread
| Started by | William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-09-24 13:28 -0700 |
| Last post | 2016-09-27 07:47 +0800 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 131 — 26 participants |
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OT: Tess of the d’Urbervilles William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2016-09-24 13:28 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d’Urbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-09-25 01:30 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the dUrbervilles Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-09-24 22:29 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the dUrbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-09-25 14:17 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-09-25 11:19 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-09-25 09:37 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-09-25 22:41 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-09-26 01:00 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-09-25 22:37 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-09-25 20:01 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-09-26 01:39 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2016-09-26 12:32 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-09-26 13:51 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-09-25 18:32 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles James Rau <jrau@beep.beep.com> - 2016-09-25 18:52 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-09-26 04:59 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-09-25 23:04 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-09-25 21:51 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-09-27 07:36 +0800
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-09-27 05:50 -0500
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-09-27 13:58 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-09-26 20:54 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-09-26 19:51 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2016-09-26 22:12 -0500
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-09-26 21:06 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-09-26 23:02 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 12:20 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-09-26 05:01 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2016-09-26 13:19 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-09-26 21:01 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 12:30 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 13:17 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-09-28 13:50 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 14:51 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-09-28 21:56 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-09-28 18:41 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2016-09-30 10:48 -0700
Opera (was Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-09-29 15:34 +0000
Re: Opera (was Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles) Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-09-30 13:24 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-09-28 17:41 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) - 2016-09-26 04:45 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-09-26 01:15 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-26 00:06 -0600
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-09-26 02:31 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-09-26 05:08 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-09-26 14:25 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-09-26 21:04 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-09-27 03:42 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-09-27 07:38 +0800
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-09-26 12:57 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2016-09-26 10:59 +0200
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-09-26 05:22 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2016-09-26 12:17 +0200
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-09-26 14:07 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-09-26 21:08 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-09-26 20:39 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-09-26 01:00 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?Urbervilles David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-09-27 05:55 -0500
Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2016-09-25 15:44 -0700
Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-09-25 23:16 -0400
Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2016-09-26 12:57 -0700
Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-09-26 21:29 -0400
Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2016-09-28 12:39 -0700
Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles Brett Dunbar <brett@dimetrodon.me.uk> - 2016-09-30 20:20 +0100
Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-09-30 13:15 -0700
Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2016-10-02 14:16 -0700
Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-09-30 16:57 -0400
Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 08:19 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-01 13:45 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 10:04 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-10-01 09:54 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-01 17:11 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 14:04 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-10-01 15:05 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-10-02 06:47 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-02 13:30 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-10-02 11:29 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2016-10-02 10:52 -0500
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-02 20:39 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-10-02 17:02 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-02 21:51 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-10-02 19:31 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-02 23:45 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2016-10-02 20:30 -0500
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-10-03 01:10 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 06:51 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-10-03 13:07 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2016-10-02 17:39 -0500
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-10-02 19:32 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-02 23:46 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-10-03 01:07 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-03 13:15 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-10-03 13:06 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-10-01 18:03 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-01 19:25 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-10-01 13:52 -0600
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-10-01 16:13 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-10-01 14:23 -0600
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-01 22:22 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 19:19 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-10-01 22:33 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-10-02 02:16 -0400
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-10-02 04:15 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-02 13:32 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-10-01 21:48 +0000
Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 10:09 -0700
Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-10-01 17:13 +0000
Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-10-01 10:57 -0700
Re: Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-01 19:28 +0000
Re: Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 15:47 -0400
Re: Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2016-10-02 06:52 -0400
Re: Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-02 13:35 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the díUrbervilles Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> - 2016-10-02 09:42 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the díUrbervilles David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-10-03 14:54 -0500
Re: OT: Tess of the díUrbervilles Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-10-03 13:17 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the díUrbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-03 21:00 +0000
Re: Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-10-04 15:04 -0700
Re: Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-10-04 15:36 -0700
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-05 00:04 +0000
Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-10-01 22:35 -0700
Re: Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-10-02 13:37 +0000
Re: Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles Tom Kratman <tomkratman@gmail.com> - 2016-10-01 16:13 -0700
Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles Brett Dunbar <brett@dimetrodon.me.uk> - 2016-09-26 09:25 +0100
Re: Re: OT: Tess of the d旦rbervilles William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> - 2016-09-26 13:07 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the dUrbervilles Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-09-25 18:29 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the dUrbervilles djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-09-26 01:40 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the dUrbervilles Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-09-26 12:50 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d'Urbervilles nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) - 2016-09-26 04:47 +0000
Re: OT: Tess of the d’Urbervilles Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-09-26 08:17 +0800
Re: OT: Tess of the dUrbervilles Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-09-26 12:52 -0700
Re: OT: Tess of the d’Urbervilles Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-09-27 07:47 +0800
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-02 21:51 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <oEFwq7.1zto@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #452747 |
In article <MPG.325b40031089d17698a5d9@news.eternal-september.org>, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >In article <oEFtE2.1t66@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com says... >> >> In article <XnsA69578C81EA3Dmelchizedek@216.166.97.131>, >> Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: >> >djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in >> >news:oEF9I5.qJG@kithrup.com: >> > >> >> In article <nsqojj$gvc$1@panix2.panix.com>, >> >> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: >> >>>In article <2a13347b-44a0-4dfb-8772-f7ef7b3f1b4f@googlegroups.com>, >> >>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> said: >> >>> >> >>>> J. Clarke wrote: >> >>>>> In article <oEDFK6.19Fn@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com says... >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> My junior-uear English teacher was neither elderly, a maiden, >> >>>>>> nor a lady, but he still made us read Willa Cather and Ralph >> >>>>>> Waldo Emerson. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Elderly maiden lady is an attitude. I have known older single >> >>>>> women who were not elderly maiden ladies and I have known young >> >>>>> married men who were. >> >>>> >> >>>> Emerson isn't ALL crap. He was Thoreau's friend, so he hathat >> >>>> going for him. Transcendentalism was a thing, and it >> >>>> strikes me as important to know about it, even if one is not >> >>>> a big fan. It was influential. >> >>> >> >>>If I recall correctly, it was also one of those things better >> >>>learned from Cliffs Notes than from the original texts. >> >> >> >> Now, this would have been in ... 1958. Did they even have >> >> Cliff's Notes back then? I certainly never encountered them >> >> until (I think) I was a graduate student, 1963 or later. >> >> >> > >> >I liked Walden, but my main contact with the Transcendentalists >> >is the nearby Fruitlands museum. This was a supposed to be a utopian >> >agrarian community, extending veganism to the point of wearing >> >only linen clothes, and refusing to use animals for farm labor. >> > >> >To the surprise of no one except the members (which included >> >Louisa May Alcott) the colony failed the first winter - this >> >bunch of philosophers, writers, and teachers couldn't grow >> >enough food (with only hand labor) to feed themselves. >> >> Yeah. Particularly since the menfolk sat around being >> philosophical while the women did the work. > >Just a note about Louisa May--she would have been 11 years old. Today >her parents would likely have been arrested for child abuse. For doing agricultural work? I'm not so sure. What are current laws about a farmer having his own kids work on his field at what age? Anybody know? -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-02 19:31 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <MPG.325b62fac3331a8298a5db@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #452753 |
In article <oEFwq7.1zto@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com says... > > In article <MPG.325b40031089d17698a5d9@news.eternal-september.org>, > J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: > >In article <oEFtE2.1t66@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com says... > >> > >> In article <XnsA69578C81EA3Dmelchizedek@216.166.97.131>, > >> Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in > >> >news:oEF9I5.qJG@kithrup.com: > >> > > >> >> In article <nsqojj$gvc$1@panix2.panix.com>, > >> >> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: > >> >>>In article <2a13347b-44a0-4dfb-8772-f7ef7b3f1b4f@googlegroups.com>, > >> >>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> said: > >> >>> > >> >>>> J. Clarke wrote: > >> >>>>> In article <oEDFK6.19Fn@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com says... > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>>> My junior-uear English teacher was neither elderly, a maiden, > >> >>>>>> nor a lady, but he still made us read Willa Cather and Ralph > >> >>>>>> Waldo Emerson. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Elderly maiden lady is an attitude. I have known older single > >> >>>>> women who were not elderly maiden ladies and I have known young > >> >>>>> married men who were. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Emerson isn't ALL crap. He was Thoreau's friend, so he hathat > >> >>>> going for him. Transcendentalism was a thing, and it > >> >>>> strikes me as important to know about it, even if one is not > >> >>>> a big fan. It was influential. > >> >>> > >> >>>If I recall correctly, it was also one of those things better > >> >>>learned from Cliffs Notes than from the original texts. > >> >> > >> >> Now, this would have been in ... 1958. Did they even have > >> >> Cliff's Notes back then? I certainly never encountered them > >> >> until (I think) I was a graduate student, 1963 or later. > >> >> > >> > > >> >I liked Walden, but my main contact with the Transcendentalists > >> >is the nearby Fruitlands museum. This was a supposed to be a utopian > >> >agrarian community, extending veganism to the point of wearing > >> >only linen clothes, and refusing to use animals for farm labor. > >> > > >> >To the surprise of no one except the members (which included > >> >Louisa May Alcott) the colony failed the first winter - this > >> >bunch of philosophers, writers, and teachers couldn't grow > >> >enough food (with only hand labor) to feed themselves. > >> > >> Yeah. Particularly since the menfolk sat around being > >> philosophical while the women did the work. > > > >Just a note about Louisa May--she would have been 11 years old. Today > >her parents would likely have been arrested for child abuse. > > For doing agricultural work? I'm not so sure. What are current > laws about a farmer having his own kids work on his field at what > age? Anybody know? Well let's see, they made her take a cold shower every morning, no matter how cold it was, the diet was mostly fruit and water, the kind of vegetables that they could actually grow in sufficient quantity to keep everybody fed were off limits for their "lower nature", they wore linen and nothing else all year round--nothing wrong with linen but it's not particularly warm, and who knows what other privation they subjected her to in the name of their nutcakery.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-02 23:45 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <oEG208.4tu@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #452762 |
In article <MPG.325b62fac3331a8298a5db@news.eternal-september.org>, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >In article <oEFwq7.1zto@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com says... >> >> In article <MPG.325b40031089d17698a5d9@news.eternal-september.org>, >> J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >> >In article <oEFtE2.1t66@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com says... >> >> >> >> In article <XnsA69578C81EA3Dmelchizedek@216.166.97.131>, >> >> Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in >> >> >news:oEF9I5.qJG@kithrup.com: >> >> > >> >> >> In article <nsqojj$gvc$1@panix2.panix.com>, >> >> >> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: >> >> >>>In article <2a13347b-44a0-4dfb-8772-f7ef7b3f1b4f@googlegroups.com>, >> >> >>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> said: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> J. Clarke wrote: >> >> >>>>> In article <oEDFK6.19Fn@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com says... >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>> My junior-uear English teacher was neither elderly, a maiden, >> >> >>>>>> nor a lady, but he still made us read Willa Cather and Ralph >> >> >>>>>> Waldo Emerson. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> Elderly maiden lady is an attitude. I have known older single >> >> >>>>> women who were not elderly maiden ladies and I have known young >> >> >>>>> married men who were. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Emerson isn't ALL crap. He was Thoreau's friend, so he hathat >> >> >>>> going for him. Transcendentalism was a thing, and it >> >> >>>> strikes me as important to know about it, even if one is not >> >> >>>> a big fan. It was influential. >> >> >>> >> >> >>>If I recall correctly, it was also one of those things better >> >> >>>learned from Cliffs Notes than from the original texts. >> >> >> >> >> >> Now, this would have been in ... 1958. Did they even have >> >> >> Cliff's Notes back then? I certainly never encountered them >> >> >> until (I think) I was a graduate student, 1963 or later. >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >I liked Walden, but my main contact with the Transcendentalists >> >> >is the nearby Fruitlands museum. This was a supposed to be a utopian >> >> >agrarian community, extending veganism to the point of wearing >> >> >only linen clothes, and refusing to use animals for farm labor. >> >> > >> >> >To the surprise of no one except the members (which included >> >> >Louisa May Alcott) the colony failed the first winter - this >> >> >bunch of philosophers, writers, and teachers couldn't grow >> >> >enough food (with only hand labor) to feed themselves. >> >> >> >> Yeah. Particularly since the menfolk sat around being >> >> philosophical while the women did the work. >> > >> >Just a note about Louisa May--she would have been 11 years old. Today >> >her parents would likely have been arrested for child abuse. >> >> For doing agricultural work? I'm not so sure. What are current >> laws about a farmer having his own kids work on his field at what >> age? Anybody know? > >Well let's see, they made her take a cold shower every morning, no >matter how cold it was, the diet was mostly fruit and water, the kind of >vegetables that they could actually grow in sufficient quantity to keep >everybody fed were off limits for their "lower nature", they wore linen >and nothing else all year round--nothing wrong with linen but it's not >particularly warm, and who knows what other privation they subjected her >to in the name of their nutcakery. And they were off on ... an island, do I recall correctly? Out in the boondocks, anyway. So even if there was an SPCC in the mid-19th century, who was to know? Things are rather better now, even with all the bad things we read about, *because we can read about them* and occasionally, not often, but sometimes do someting about them. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-02 20:30 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <XnsA695DACD6975melchizedek@216.166.97.131> |
| In reply to | #452769 |
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in news:oEG208.4tu@kithrup.com: > In article <MPG.325b62fac3331a8298a5db@news.eternal-september.org>, > J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>In article <oEFwq7.1zto@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com says... >>> >>> In article <MPG.325b40031089d17698a5d9@news.eternal-september.org>, >>> J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >In article <oEFtE2.1t66@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com says... >>> >> >>> >> In article <XnsA69578C81EA3Dmelchizedek@216.166.97.131>, >>> >> Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >> >djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in >>> >> >news:oEF9I5.qJG@kithrup.com: >>> >> > >>> >> >> In article <nsqojj$gvc$1@panix2.panix.com>, >>> >> >> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: >>> >> >>>In article >>> >> >>><2a13347b-44a0-4dfb-8772-f7ef7b3f1b4f@googlegroups.com>, >>> >> >>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> said: >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>>> J. Clarke wrote: >>> >> >>>>> In article <oEDFK6.19Fn@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com >>> >> >>>>> says... >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> >>>>>> My junior-uear English teacher was neither elderly, a >>> >> >>>>>> maiden, nor a lady, but he still made us read Willa Cather >>> >> >>>>>> and Ralph Waldo Emerson. >>> >> >>>>> >>> >> >>>>> Elderly maiden lady is an attitude. I have known older >>> >> >>>>> single women who were not elderly maiden ladies and I have >>> >> >>>>> known young married men who were. >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> Emerson isn't ALL crap. He was Thoreau's friend, so he >>> >> >>>> hathat going for him. Transcendentalism was a thing, and it >>> >> >>>> strikes me as important to know about it, even if one is not >>> >> >>>> a big fan. It was influential. >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>>If I recall correctly, it was also one of those things better >>> >> >>>learned from Cliffs Notes than from the original texts. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Now, this would have been in ... 1958. Did they even have >>> >> >> Cliff's Notes back then? I certainly never encountered them >>> >> >> until (I think) I was a graduate student, 1963 or later. >>> >> >> >>> >> > >>> >> >I liked Walden, but my main contact with the Transcendentalists >>> >> >is the nearby Fruitlands museum. This was a supposed to be a >>> >> >utopian agrarian community, extending veganism to the point of >>> >> >wearing only linen clothes, and refusing to use animals for farm >>> >> >labor. >>> >> > >>> >> >To the surprise of no one except the members (which included >>> >> >Louisa May Alcott) the colony failed the first winter - this >>> >> >bunch of philosophers, writers, and teachers couldn't grow >>> >> >enough food (with only hand labor) to feed themselves. >>> >> >>> >> Yeah. Particularly since the menfolk sat around being >>> >> philosophical while the women did the work. >>> > >>> >Just a note about Louisa May--she would have been 11 years old. >>> >Today her parents would likely have been arrested for child abuse. >>> >>> For doing agricultural work? I'm not so sure. What are current >>> laws about a farmer having his own kids work on his field at what >>> age? Anybody know? >> >>Well let's see, they made her take a cold shower every morning, no >>matter how cold it was, the diet was mostly fruit and water, the kind >>of vegetables that they could actually grow in sufficient quantity to >>keep everybody fed were off limits for their "lower nature", they wore >>linen and nothing else all year round--nothing wrong with linen but >>it's not particularly warm, and who knows what other privation they >>subjected her to in the name of their nutcakery. > > And they were off on ... an island, do I recall correctly? Out > in the boondocks, anyway. So even if there was an SPCC in the > mid-19th century, who was to know? No. The Fruitlands commune was in Harvard, Massachusetts, surrounded by other farms, and about a mile from the center of town. Harvard also had a thriving (for a while) Shaker Village. I've visited the relics of both. pt
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| From | Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 01:10 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <cup3vbppb62ktp6d298u10fq6pm9smsp29@reader80.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #452780 |
On Sun, 02 Oct 2016 20:30:30 -0500, Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: >djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in >news:oEG208.4tu@kithrup.com: > >> >> And they were off on ... an island, do I recall correctly? Out >> in the boondocks, anyway. So even if there was an SPCC in the >> mid-19th century, who was to know? > >No. The Fruitlands commune was in Harvard, Massachusetts, surrounded >by other farms, and about a mile from the center of town. Harvard also >had a thriving (for a while) Shaker Village. I've visited the relics >of both. Nota bene: The town of Harvard is not directly connected with the university, though I believe they were both named for members of the same family. I don't remember how far apart they are, but it's a respectable distance. -- My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
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| From | Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 06:51 -0700 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <37f41926-efdc-48e8-a308-a4142022f6b1@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #452799 |
On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 1:10:07 AM UTC-4, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote: > On Sun, 02 Oct 2016 20:30:30 -0500, Cryptoengineer > <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: > > >djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in > >news:oEG208.4tu@kithrup.com: > > > >> > >> And they were off on ... an island, do I recall correctly? Out > >> in the boondocks, anyway. So even if there was an SPCC in the > >> mid-19th century, who was to know? > > > >No. The Fruitlands commune was in Harvard, Massachusetts, surrounded > >by other farms, and about a mile from the center of town. Harvard also > >had a thriving (for a while) Shaker Village. I've visited the relics > >of both. > > Nota bene: The town of Harvard is not directly connected with the > university, though I believe they were both named for members of the > same family. I don't remember how far apart they are, but it's a > respectable distance. They're about 25 miles apart. Harvard (the small town) is just outside I-495 to the west of Boston. Harvard (the school) is in Cambridge, just north of Boston. Its a fairly tony community, with a almost bearable commute into Boston and the 128 corridor. pt
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| From | Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 13:07 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <g045vb1h4a732986jes2pjtfjn3g4g80fl@reader80.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #452824 |
On Mon, 3 Oct 2016 06:51:37 -0700 (PDT), Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote: >On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 1:10:07 AM UTC-4, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote: >> On Sun, 02 Oct 2016 20:30:30 -0500, Cryptoengineer >> <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in >> >news:oEG208.4tu@kithrup.com: >> > >> >> >> >> And they were off on ... an island, do I recall correctly? Out >> >> in the boondocks, anyway. So even if there was an SPCC in the >> >> mid-19th century, who was to know? >> > >> >No. The Fruitlands commune was in Harvard, Massachusetts, surrounded >> >by other farms, and about a mile from the center of town. Harvard also >> >had a thriving (for a while) Shaker Village. I've visited the relics >> >of both. >> >> Nota bene: The town of Harvard is not directly connected with the >> university, though I believe they were both named for members of the >> same family. I don't remember how far apart they are, but it's a >> respectable distance. > >They're about 25 miles apart. Harvard (the small town) is just outside I-495 >to the west of Boston. Harvard (the school) is in Cambridge, just north of >Boston. Ah, I misremembered; I would have guessed 40 miles, if I had to guess. >Its a fairly tony community, with a almost bearable commute into Boston and >the 128 corridor. Yeah, I visited friends there once. -- My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
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| From | Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-02 17:39 -0500 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <XnsA695BDBF83D20melchizedek@216.166.97.131> |
| In reply to | #452738 |
djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in news:oEFtE2.1t66 @kithrup.com: > In article <XnsA69578C81EA3Dmelchizedek@216.166.97.131>, > Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: >>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in >>news:oEF9I5.qJG@kithrup.com: >> >>> In article <nsqojj$gvc$1@panix2.panix.com>, >>> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: >>>>In article <2a13347b-44a0-4dfb-8772-f7ef7b3f1b4f@googlegroups.com>, >>>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> said: >>>> >>>>> J. Clarke wrote: >>>>>> In article <oEDFK6.19Fn@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com says... >>>>>> >>>>>>> My junior-uear English teacher was neither elderly, a maiden, >>>>>>> nor a lady, but he still made us read Willa Cather and Ralph >>>>>>> Waldo Emerson. >>>>>> >>>>>> Elderly maiden lady is an attitude. I have known older single >>>>>> women who were not elderly maiden ladies and I have known young >>>>>> married men who were. >>>>> >>>>> Emerson isn't ALL crap. He was Thoreau's friend, so he hathat >>>>> going for him. Transcendentalism was a thing, and it >>>>> strikes me as important to know about it, even if one is not >>>>> a big fan. It was influential. >>>> >>>>If I recall correctly, it was also one of those things better >>>>learned from Cliffs Notes than from the original texts. >>> >>> Now, this would have been in ... 1958. Did they even have >>> Cliff's Notes back then? I certainly never encountered them >>> until (I think) I was a graduate student, 1963 or later. >>> >> >>I liked Walden, but my main contact with the Transcendentalists >>is the nearby Fruitlands museum. This was a supposed to be a utopian >>agrarian community, extending veganism to the point of wearing >>only linen clothes, and refusing to use animals for farm labor. >> >>To the surprise of no one except the members (which included >>Louisa May Alcott) the colony failed the first winter - this >>bunch of philosophers, writers, and teachers couldn't grow >>enough food (with only hand labor) to feed themselves. > > Yeah. Particularly since the menfolk sat around being > philosophical while the women did the work. > This is true, except that for a good deal of the time, it would be more correct to say it was 'the woman' who did the work - the place was tiny. LMA later wrote about her experience in 'Transcendental Wild Oats'. IIRC from the exhibits at the farm, at one point the kids were sneaking away to neighboring (and comptently run) farms where they were fed. pt
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| From | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-02 19:32 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <MPG.325b63392992eb4d98a5dc@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #452755 |
In article <XnsA695BDBF83D20melchizedek@216.166.97.131>, treifamily@gmail.com says... > > djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in news:oEFtE2.1t66 > @kithrup.com: > > > In article <XnsA69578C81EA3Dmelchizedek@216.166.97.131>, > > Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: > >>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in > >>news:oEF9I5.qJG@kithrup.com: > >> > >>> In article <nsqojj$gvc$1@panix2.panix.com>, > >>> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: > >>>>In article <2a13347b-44a0-4dfb-8772-f7ef7b3f1b4f@googlegroups.com>, > >>>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> said: > >>>> > >>>>> J. Clarke wrote: > >>>>>> In article <oEDFK6.19Fn@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com says... > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> My junior-uear English teacher was neither elderly, a maiden, > >>>>>>> nor a lady, but he still made us read Willa Cather and Ralph > >>>>>>> Waldo Emerson. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Elderly maiden lady is an attitude. I have known older single > >>>>>> women who were not elderly maiden ladies and I have known young > >>>>>> married men who were. > >>>>> > >>>>> Emerson isn't ALL crap. He was Thoreau's friend, so he hathat > >>>>> going for him. Transcendentalism was a thing, and it > >>>>> strikes me as important to know about it, even if one is not > >>>>> a big fan. It was influential. > >>>> > >>>>If I recall correctly, it was also one of those things better > >>>>learned from Cliffs Notes than from the original texts. > >>> > >>> Now, this would have been in ... 1958. Did they even have > >>> Cliff's Notes back then? I certainly never encountered them > >>> until (I think) I was a graduate student, 1963 or later. > >>> > >> > >>I liked Walden, but my main contact with the Transcendentalists > >>is the nearby Fruitlands museum. This was a supposed to be a utopian > >>agrarian community, extending veganism to the point of wearing > >>only linen clothes, and refusing to use animals for farm labor. > >> > >>To the surprise of no one except the members (which included > >>Louisa May Alcott) the colony failed the first winter - this > >>bunch of philosophers, writers, and teachers couldn't grow > >>enough food (with only hand labor) to feed themselves. > > > > Yeah. Particularly since the menfolk sat around being > > philosophical while the women did the work. > > > > This is true, except that for a good deal of the time, it > would be more correct to say it was 'the woman' who did the > work - the place was tiny. > > LMA later wrote about her experience in 'Transcendental Wild Oats'. > > IIRC from the exhibits at the farm, at one point the kids were > sneaking away to neighboring (and comptently run) farms where they > were fed. Which shows that they had far more sense than their parents.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-02 23:46 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <oEG21C.4wJ@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #452755 |
In article <XnsA695BDBF83D20melchizedek@216.166.97.131>, Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: >djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in news:oEFtE2.1t66 >@kithrup.com: > >> In article <XnsA69578C81EA3Dmelchizedek@216.166.97.131>, >> Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: >>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in >>>news:oEF9I5.qJG@kithrup.com: >>> >>>> In article <nsqojj$gvc$1@panix2.panix.com>, >>>> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: >>>>>In article <2a13347b-44a0-4dfb-8772-f7ef7b3f1b4f@googlegroups.com>, >>>>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> said: >>>>> >>>>>> J. Clarke wrote: >>>>>>> In article <oEDFK6.19Fn@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com says... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My junior-uear English teacher was neither elderly, a maiden, >>>>>>>> nor a lady, but he still made us read Willa Cather and Ralph >>>>>>>> Waldo Emerson. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Elderly maiden lady is an attitude. I have known older single >>>>>>> women who were not elderly maiden ladies and I have known young >>>>>>> married men who were. >>>>>> >>>>>> Emerson isn't ALL crap. He was Thoreau's friend, so he hathat >>>>>> going for him. Transcendentalism was a thing, and it >>>>>> strikes me as important to know about it, even if one is not >>>>>> a big fan. It was influential. >>>>> >>>>>If I recall correctly, it was also one of those things better >>>>>learned from Cliffs Notes than from the original texts. >>>> >>>> Now, this would have been in ... 1958. Did they even have >>>> Cliff's Notes back then? I certainly never encountered them >>>> until (I think) I was a graduate student, 1963 or later. >>>> >>> >>>I liked Walden, but my main contact with the Transcendentalists >>>is the nearby Fruitlands museum. This was a supposed to be a utopian >>>agrarian community, extending veganism to the point of wearing >>>only linen clothes, and refusing to use animals for farm labor. >>> >>>To the surprise of no one except the members (which included >>>Louisa May Alcott) the colony failed the first winter - this >>>bunch of philosophers, writers, and teachers couldn't grow >>>enough food (with only hand labor) to feed themselves. >> >> Yeah. Particularly since the menfolk sat around being >> philosophical while the women did the work. >> > >This is true, except that for a good deal of the time, it >would be more correct to say it was 'the woman' who did the >work - the place was tiny. > >LMA later wrote about her experience in 'Transcendental Wild Oats'. > >IIRC from the exhibits at the farm, at one point the kids were >sneaking away to neighboring (and comptently run) farms where they >were fed. Good! -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 01:07 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <lrp3vb9dusbp4hm7bgdus0727nilhth4gr@reader80.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #452738 |
On Sun, 2 Oct 2016 20:39:38 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote: >In article <XnsA69578C81EA3Dmelchizedek@216.166.97.131>, >Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: >>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in >>news:oEF9I5.qJG@kithrup.com: >> >>> In article <nsqojj$gvc$1@panix2.panix.com>, >>> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: >>>>In article <2a13347b-44a0-4dfb-8772-f7ef7b3f1b4f@googlegroups.com>, >>>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> said: >>>> >> >>I liked Walden, but my main contact with the Transcendentalists >>is the nearby Fruitlands museum. This was a supposed to be a utopian >>agrarian community, extending veganism to the point of wearing >>only linen clothes, and refusing to use animals for farm labor. >> >>To the surprise of no one except the members (which included >>Louisa May Alcott) the colony failed the first winter - this >>bunch of philosophers, writers, and teachers couldn't grow >>enough food (with only hand labor) to feed themselves. > >Yeah. Particularly since the menfolk sat around being >philosophical while the women did the work. Well, that's normal enough, though often it's drinking and/or gambling and/or bragging rather than philosophizing. -- My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 13:15 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <oEH3IE.EK7@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #452798 |
In article <lrp3vb9dusbp4hm7bgdus0727nilhth4gr@reader80.eternal-september.org>, Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> wrote: >On Sun, 2 Oct 2016 20:39:38 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) >wrote: > >>In article <XnsA69578C81EA3Dmelchizedek@216.166.97.131>, >>Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: >>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in >>>news:oEF9I5.qJG@kithrup.com: >>> >>>> In article <nsqojj$gvc$1@panix2.panix.com>, >>>> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: >>>>>In article <2a13347b-44a0-4dfb-8772-f7ef7b3f1b4f@googlegroups.com>, >>>>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> said: >>>>> >>> >>>I liked Walden, but my main contact with the Transcendentalists >>>is the nearby Fruitlands museum. This was a supposed to be a utopian >>>agrarian community, extending veganism to the point of wearing >>>only linen clothes, and refusing to use animals for farm labor. >>> >>>To the surprise of no one except the members (which included >>>Louisa May Alcott) the colony failed the first winter - this >>>bunch of philosophers, writers, and teachers couldn't grow >>>enough food (with only hand labor) to feed themselves. >> >>Yeah. Particularly since the menfolk sat around being >>philosophical while the women did the work. > >Well, that's normal enough, though often it's drinking and/or gambling >and/or bragging rather than philosophizing. > Yes, but in normal farms the men do the upper-body-strength work and the women do the other stuff. Ref.: Wilder, _Farmer Boy._ -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-03 13:06 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <6s35vblivmmm79o07bvne9ub4lqhi1ng43@reader80.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #452819 |
On Mon, 3 Oct 2016 13:15:50 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote: >In article <lrp3vb9dusbp4hm7bgdus0727nilhth4gr@reader80.eternal-september.org>, >Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> wrote: >>On Sun, 2 Oct 2016 20:39:38 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) >>wrote: >> >>>In article <XnsA69578C81EA3Dmelchizedek@216.166.97.131>, >>>Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in >>>>news:oEF9I5.qJG@kithrup.com: >>>> >>>>> In article <nsqojj$gvc$1@panix2.panix.com>, >>>>> William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com> wrote: >>>>>>In article <2a13347b-44a0-4dfb-8772-f7ef7b3f1b4f@googlegroups.com>, >>>>>>Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> said: >>>>>> >>>> >>>>I liked Walden, but my main contact with the Transcendentalists >>>>is the nearby Fruitlands museum. This was a supposed to be a utopian >>>>agrarian community, extending veganism to the point of wearing >>>>only linen clothes, and refusing to use animals for farm labor. >>>> >>>>To the surprise of no one except the members (which included >>>>Louisa May Alcott) the colony failed the first winter - this >>>>bunch of philosophers, writers, and teachers couldn't grow >>>>enough food (with only hand labor) to feed themselves. >>> >>>Yeah. Particularly since the menfolk sat around being >>>philosophical while the women did the work. >> >>Well, that's normal enough, though often it's drinking and/or gambling >>and/or bragging rather than philosophizing. >> >Yes, but in normal farms the men do the upper-body-strength work >and the women do the other stuff. > >Ref.: Wilder, _Farmer Boy._ Depends on the culture. I was amazed, when I took Anthropology 101, at how many cultures there are where the men don't do ANY of the real work. Women raise the crops, keep house, raise the kids. The men go hunting every so often, fight wars, and that's about it. -- My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
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| From | Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 18:03 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <20161001a@crcomp.net> |
| In reply to | #452550 |
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <MPG.325973c12038989898a5bc@news.eternal-september.org>,
> J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>In article <yEFIQLKasr7XFwIY@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk>,
>>brett@dimetrodon.me.uk says...
>>>
>>> In message <nsci1p$28n$1@panix2.panix.com>, William December Starr
>>> <wdstarr@panix.com> writes
>>> >In article <62a5d409-2e96-4bff-ac2b-b0cdf92add79@googlegroups.com>,
>>> >William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> said:
>>> >
>>> >> William December Starr wrote:
>>> >>> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> said:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> It was intended as a pure entertainment, but he wasn't describing
>>> >>>> a fantasy world.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> If a novel is intended as entertainment but fails to entertain
>>> >>> because of the Fifteen Deadly Words -- "I _do_ care what happens to
>>> >>> these people, and I don't like it a bit" -- well, perhaps the word
>>> >>> "failure" applies.
>>> >>
>>> >> Speaking of fantasy worlds! When a novel is still in print one
>>> >> hundred and twenty five years after publication, I think it's safe
>>> >> to say that the word "failure" does not apply.
>>> >
>>> >I did say "fails to entertain," not "fails to stay in print."
>>>
>>> To stay in print it has to entertain, ultimately any other objective is
>>> dependent on the novel being read. So it needs to actually convince the
>>> reader that there is some value in finding out what happens next, that
>>> is there must be entertainment value all else is secondary.
>>
>>Convince enough elderly maiden ladies that it is "lit her a tour" and it
>>will continue to sell, inflicted unwillingly on legions of hapless
>>schoolchildren to poison for ever any hope of their becoming interested
>>in reading.
>
> My junior-uear English teacher was neither elderly, a maiden, nor
> a lady, but he still made us read Willa Cather and Ralph Waldo
> Emerson.
_The Cambridge Companion to Science Fiction_ regards Egdar Allan Poe as
the first writer to experiment with the science-fictional method. And
Poe regards his contemporary Emerson as yet another Frogpondian
Euphuist. A couple of Poe's essays eloquently elucidate the problem with
Emerson. :0)
It has been well said of the French orator, Dupin, that "he
spoke, as nobody else, the language of every body;" and thus his
manner seems to be exactly conversed in that of the Frogpondian
Euphuists, who, on account of the familiar tone in which they
lisp their outre phrases, may be said to speak, as every body,
the language of nobody - that is to say, a language emphatically
their own. [1]
even when we let these modern hexameters go, as Greek, and
merely hold them fast in their proper character of Longfellowian,
or Feltonian, or Frogpondian, we must still condemn them as
having been committed in a radical misconception of the
philosophy of verse. [2]
Note.
1. http://www.eapoe.org/works/pollin/brp20416.htm
2. http://www.bc.edu/schools/cas/english/poebostonexhibit/poesquarrel/34.html
Thank you,
--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
You mistake me in supposing I dislike the transcendentalists. It is
only the pretenders and sophists among them. - Poe
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 19:25 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <oEDv9u.23AH@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #452572 |
In article <20161001a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> wrote: > >Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote: >> In article <MPG.325973c12038989898a5bc@news.eternal-september.org>, >> J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>In article <yEFIQLKasr7XFwIY@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk>, >>>brett@dimetrodon.me.uk says... >>>> >>>> In message <nsci1p$28n$1@panix2.panix.com>, William December Starr >>>> <wdstarr@panix.com> writes >>>> >In article <62a5d409-2e96-4bff-ac2b-b0cdf92add79@googlegroups.com>, >>>> >William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> said: >>>> > >>>> >> William December Starr wrote: >>>> >>> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> said: >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> It was intended as a pure entertainment, but he wasn't describing >>>> >>>> a fantasy world. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> If a novel is intended as entertainment but fails to entertain >>>> >>> because of the Fifteen Deadly Words -- "I _do_ care what happens to >>>> >>> these people, and I don't like it a bit" -- well, perhaps the word >>>> >>> "failure" applies. >>>> >> >>>> >> Speaking of fantasy worlds! When a novel is still in print one >>>> >> hundred and twenty five years after publication, I think it's safe >>>> >> to say that the word "failure" does not apply. >>>> > >>>> >I did say "fails to entertain," not "fails to stay in print." >>>> >>>> To stay in print it has to entertain, ultimately any other objective is >>>> dependent on the novel being read. So it needs to actually convince the >>>> reader that there is some value in finding out what happens next, that >>>> is there must be entertainment value all else is secondary. >>> >>>Convince enough elderly maiden ladies that it is "lit her a tour" and it >>>will continue to sell, inflicted unwillingly on legions of hapless >>>schoolchildren to poison for ever any hope of their becoming interested >>>in reading. >> >> My junior-uear English teacher was neither elderly, a maiden, nor >> a lady, but he still made us read Willa Cather and Ralph Waldo >> Emerson. > >_The Cambridge Companion to Science Fiction_ regards Egdar Allan Poe as >the first writer to experiment with the science-fictional method. And >Poe regards his contemporary Emerson as yet another Frogpondian >Euphuist. A couple of Poe's essays eloquently elucidate the problem with >Emerson. :0) > > It has been well said of the French orator, Dupin, that "he > spoke, as nobody else, the language of every body;" and thus his > manner seems to be exactly conversed in that of the Frogpondian > Euphuists, who, on account of the familiar tone in which they > lisp their outre phrases, may be said to speak, as every body, > the language of nobody - that is to say, a language emphatically > their own. [1] > > even when we let these modern hexameters go, as Greek, and > merely hold them fast in their proper character of Longfellowian, > or Feltonian, or Frogpondian, we must still condemn them as > having been committed in a radical misconception of the > philosophy of verse. [2] > >Note. > >1. http://www.eapoe.org/works/pollin/brp20416.htm >2. http://www.bc.edu/schools/cas/english/poebostonexhibit/poesquarrel/34.html I have learned a new word: Frogpondian. Still don't know what it means, but what the hey. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 13:52 -0600 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <nsp457$43g$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #452595 |
On 10/1/2016 1:25 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > In article <20161001a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> wrote: >> >> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote: >>> In article <MPG.325973c12038989898a5bc@news.eternal-september.org>, >>> J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> In article <yEFIQLKasr7XFwIY@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk>, >>>> brett@dimetrodon.me.uk says... >>>>> >>>>> In message <nsci1p$28n$1@panix2.panix.com>, William December Starr >>>>> <wdstarr@panix.com> writes >>>>>> In article <62a5d409-2e96-4bff-ac2b-b0cdf92add79@googlegroups.com>, >>>>>> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> said: >>>>>> >>>>>>> William December Starr wrote: >>>>>>>> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> said: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It was intended as a pure entertainment, but he wasn't describing >>>>>>>>> a fantasy world. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If a novel is intended as entertainment but fails to entertain >>>>>>>> because of the Fifteen Deadly Words -- "I _do_ care what happens to >>>>>>>> these people, and I don't like it a bit" -- well, perhaps the word >>>>>>>> "failure" applies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Speaking of fantasy worlds! When a novel is still in print one >>>>>>> hundred and twenty five years after publication, I think it's safe >>>>>>> to say that the word "failure" does not apply. >>>>>> >>>>>> I did say "fails to entertain," not "fails to stay in print." >>>>> >>>>> To stay in print it has to entertain, ultimately any other objective is >>>>> dependent on the novel being read. So it needs to actually convince the >>>>> reader that there is some value in finding out what happens next, that >>>>> is there must be entertainment value all else is secondary. >>>> >>>> Convince enough elderly maiden ladies that it is "lit her a tour" and it >>>> will continue to sell, inflicted unwillingly on legions of hapless >>>> schoolchildren to poison for ever any hope of their becoming interested >>>> in reading. >>> >>> My junior-uear English teacher was neither elderly, a maiden, nor >>> a lady, but he still made us read Willa Cather and Ralph Waldo >>> Emerson. >> >> _The Cambridge Companion to Science Fiction_ regards Egdar Allan Poe as >> the first writer to experiment with the science-fictional method. And >> Poe regards his contemporary Emerson as yet another Frogpondian >> Euphuist. A couple of Poe's essays eloquently elucidate the problem with >> Emerson. :0) >> >> It has been well said of the French orator, Dupin, that "he >> spoke, as nobody else, the language of every body;" and thus his >> manner seems to be exactly conversed in that of the Frogpondian >> Euphuists, who, on account of the familiar tone in which they >> lisp their outre phrases, may be said to speak, as every body, >> the language of nobody - that is to say, a language emphatically >> their own. [1] >> >> even when we let these modern hexameters go, as Greek, and >> merely hold them fast in their proper character of Longfellowian, >> or Feltonian, or Frogpondian, we must still condemn them as >> having been committed in a radical misconception of the >> philosophy of verse. [2] >> >> Note. >> >> 1. http://www.eapoe.org/works/pollin/brp20416.htm >> 2. http://www.bc.edu/schools/cas/english/poebostonexhibit/poesquarrel/34.html > > I have learned a new word: Frogpondian. Still don't know what it > means, but what the hey. > Person from Boston. I don't know why he referred to Boston as Frogpondium.
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| From | Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 16:13 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <h660vb15pifearfnkufqtvtvjq706s3gn0@reader80.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #452601 |
On Sat, 1 Oct 2016 13:52:31 -0600, David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote: >On 10/1/2016 1:25 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >> In article <20161001a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> wrote: >>> >>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote: >>>> In article <MPG.325973c12038989898a5bc@news.eternal-september.org>, >>>> J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> In article <yEFIQLKasr7XFwIY@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk>, >>>>> brett@dimetrodon.me.uk says... >>>>>> >>>>>> In message <nsci1p$28n$1@panix2.panix.com>, William December Starr >>>>>> <wdstarr@panix.com> writes >>>>>>> In article <62a5d409-2e96-4bff-ac2b-b0cdf92add79@googlegroups.com>, >>>>>>> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> said: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote: >>>>>>>>> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> said: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It was intended as a pure entertainment, but he wasn't describing >>>>>>>>>> a fantasy world. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If a novel is intended as entertainment but fails to entertain >>>>>>>>> because of the Fifteen Deadly Words -- "I _do_ care what happens to >>>>>>>>> these people, and I don't like it a bit" -- well, perhaps the word >>>>>>>>> "failure" applies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Speaking of fantasy worlds! When a novel is still in print one >>>>>>>> hundred and twenty five years after publication, I think it's safe >>>>>>>> to say that the word "failure" does not apply. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I did say "fails to entertain," not "fails to stay in print." >>>>>> >>>>>> To stay in print it has to entertain, ultimately any other objective is >>>>>> dependent on the novel being read. So it needs to actually convince the >>>>>> reader that there is some value in finding out what happens next, that >>>>>> is there must be entertainment value all else is secondary. >>>>> >>>>> Convince enough elderly maiden ladies that it is "lit her a tour" and it >>>>> will continue to sell, inflicted unwillingly on legions of hapless >>>>> schoolchildren to poison for ever any hope of their becoming interested >>>>> in reading. >>>> >>>> My junior-uear English teacher was neither elderly, a maiden, nor >>>> a lady, but he still made us read Willa Cather and Ralph Waldo >>>> Emerson. >>> >>> _The Cambridge Companion to Science Fiction_ regards Egdar Allan Poe as >>> the first writer to experiment with the science-fictional method. And >>> Poe regards his contemporary Emerson as yet another Frogpondian >>> Euphuist. A couple of Poe's essays eloquently elucidate the problem with >>> Emerson. :0) >>> >>> It has been well said of the French orator, Dupin, that "he >>> spoke, as nobody else, the language of every body;" and thus his >>> manner seems to be exactly conversed in that of the Frogpondian >>> Euphuists, who, on account of the familiar tone in which they >>> lisp their outre phrases, may be said to speak, as every body, >>> the language of nobody - that is to say, a language emphatically >>> their own. [1] >>> >>> even when we let these modern hexameters go, as Greek, and >>> merely hold them fast in their proper character of Longfellowian, >>> or Feltonian, or Frogpondian, we must still condemn them as >>> having been committed in a radical misconception of the >>> philosophy of verse. [2] >>> >>> Note. >>> >>> 1. http://www.eapoe.org/works/pollin/brp20416.htm >>> 2. http://www.bc.edu/schools/cas/english/poebostonexhibit/poesquarrel/34.html >> >> I have learned a new word: Frogpondian. Still don't know what it >> means, but what the hey. > >Person from Boston. I don't know why he referred to Boston as >Frogpondium. You've never visited the Public Gardens? -- My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
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| From | David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 14:23 -0600 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <nsp5ut$a0b$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #452602 |
On 10/1/2016 2:13 PM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote: > On Sat, 1 Oct 2016 13:52:31 -0600, David Johnston > <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On 10/1/2016 1:25 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >>> In article <20161001a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote: >>>>> In article <MPG.325973c12038989898a5bc@news.eternal-september.org>, >>>>> J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> In article <yEFIQLKasr7XFwIY@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk>, >>>>>> brett@dimetrodon.me.uk says... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In message <nsci1p$28n$1@panix2.panix.com>, William December Starr >>>>>>> <wdstarr@panix.com> writes >>>>>>>> In article <62a5d409-2e96-4bff-ac2b-b0cdf92add79@googlegroups.com>, >>>>>>>> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> said: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote: >>>>>>>>>> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> said: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It was intended as a pure entertainment, but he wasn't describing >>>>>>>>>>> a fantasy world. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If a novel is intended as entertainment but fails to entertain >>>>>>>>>> because of the Fifteen Deadly Words -- "I _do_ care what happens to >>>>>>>>>> these people, and I don't like it a bit" -- well, perhaps the word >>>>>>>>>> "failure" applies. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Speaking of fantasy worlds! When a novel is still in print one >>>>>>>>> hundred and twenty five years after publication, I think it's safe >>>>>>>>> to say that the word "failure" does not apply. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I did say "fails to entertain," not "fails to stay in print." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To stay in print it has to entertain, ultimately any other objective is >>>>>>> dependent on the novel being read. So it needs to actually convince the >>>>>>> reader that there is some value in finding out what happens next, that >>>>>>> is there must be entertainment value all else is secondary. >>>>>> >>>>>> Convince enough elderly maiden ladies that it is "lit her a tour" and it >>>>>> will continue to sell, inflicted unwillingly on legions of hapless >>>>>> schoolchildren to poison for ever any hope of their becoming interested >>>>>> in reading. >>>>> >>>>> My junior-uear English teacher was neither elderly, a maiden, nor >>>>> a lady, but he still made us read Willa Cather and Ralph Waldo >>>>> Emerson. >>>> >>>> _The Cambridge Companion to Science Fiction_ regards Egdar Allan Poe as >>>> the first writer to experiment with the science-fictional method. And >>>> Poe regards his contemporary Emerson as yet another Frogpondian >>>> Euphuist. A couple of Poe's essays eloquently elucidate the problem with >>>> Emerson. :0) >>>> >>>> It has been well said of the French orator, Dupin, that "he >>>> spoke, as nobody else, the language of every body;" and thus his >>>> manner seems to be exactly conversed in that of the Frogpondian >>>> Euphuists, who, on account of the familiar tone in which they >>>> lisp their outre phrases, may be said to speak, as every body, >>>> the language of nobody - that is to say, a language emphatically >>>> their own. [1] >>>> >>>> even when we let these modern hexameters go, as Greek, and >>>> merely hold them fast in their proper character of Longfellowian, >>>> or Feltonian, or Frogpondian, we must still condemn them as >>>> having been committed in a radical misconception of the >>>> philosophy of verse. [2] >>>> >>>> Note. >>>> >>>> 1. http://www.eapoe.org/works/pollin/brp20416.htm >>>> 2. http://www.bc.edu/schools/cas/english/poebostonexhibit/poesquarrel/34.html >>> >>> I have learned a new word: Frogpondian. Still don't know what it >>> means, but what the hey. >> >> Person from Boston. I don't know why he referred to Boston as >> Frogpondium. > > You've never visited the Public Gardens? > > > > I've never visited Boston.
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| From | djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 22:22 +0000 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <oEE3I3.EEJ@kithrup.com> |
| In reply to | #452601 |
In article <nsp457$43g$1@dont-email.me>, David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote: >On 10/1/2016 1:25 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >> In article <20161001a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> wrote: >>> >>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote: >>>> In article <MPG.325973c12038989898a5bc@news.eternal-september.org>, >>>> J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> In article <yEFIQLKasr7XFwIY@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk>, >>>>> brett@dimetrodon.me.uk says... >>>>>> >>>>>> In message <nsci1p$28n$1@panix2.panix.com>, William December Starr >>>>>> <wdstarr@panix.com> writes >>>>>>> In article <62a5d409-2e96-4bff-ac2b-b0cdf92add79@googlegroups.com>, >>>>>>> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> said: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote: >>>>>>>>> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> said: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It was intended as a pure entertainment, but he wasn't describing >>>>>>>>>> a fantasy world. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If a novel is intended as entertainment but fails to entertain >>>>>>>>> because of the Fifteen Deadly Words -- "I _do_ care what happens to >>>>>>>>> these people, and I don't like it a bit" -- well, perhaps the word >>>>>>>>> "failure" applies. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Speaking of fantasy worlds! When a novel is still in print one >>>>>>>> hundred and twenty five years after publication, I think it's safe >>>>>>>> to say that the word "failure" does not apply. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I did say "fails to entertain," not "fails to stay in print." >>>>>> >>>>>> To stay in print it has to entertain, ultimately any other objective is >>>>>> dependent on the novel being read. So it needs to actually convince the >>>>>> reader that there is some value in finding out what happens next, that >>>>>> is there must be entertainment value all else is secondary. >>>>> >>>>> Convince enough elderly maiden ladies that it is "lit her a tour" and it >>>>> will continue to sell, inflicted unwillingly on legions of hapless >>>>> schoolchildren to poison for ever any hope of their becoming interested >>>>> in reading. >>>> >>>> My junior-uear English teacher was neither elderly, a maiden, nor >>>> a lady, but he still made us read Willa Cather and Ralph Waldo >>>> Emerson. >>> >>> _The Cambridge Companion to Science Fiction_ regards Egdar Allan Poe as >>> the first writer to experiment with the science-fictional method. And >>> Poe regards his contemporary Emerson as yet another Frogpondian >>> Euphuist. A couple of Poe's essays eloquently elucidate the problem with >>> Emerson. :0) >>> >>> It has been well said of the French orator, Dupin, that "he >>> spoke, as nobody else, the language of every body;" and thus his >>> manner seems to be exactly conversed in that of the Frogpondian >>> Euphuists, who, on account of the familiar tone in which they >>> lisp their outre phrases, may be said to speak, as every body, >>> the language of nobody - that is to say, a language emphatically >>> their own. [1] >>> >>> even when we let these modern hexameters go, as Greek, and >>> merely hold them fast in their proper character of Longfellowian, >>> or Feltonian, or Frogpondian, we must still condemn them as >>> having been committed in a radical misconception of the >>> philosophy of verse. [2] >>> >>> Note. >>> >>> 1. http://www.eapoe.org/works/pollin/brp20416.htm >>> 2. http://www.bc.edu/schools/cas/english/poebostonexhibit/poesquarrel/34.html >> >> I have learned a new word: Frogpondian. Still don't know what it >> means, but what the hey. >> > >Person from Boston. I don't know why he referred to Boston as >Frogpondium. Maybe there were frogs there? Two or three centuries ago? Sounds likelier than, say, Frenchmen. -- Dorothy J. Heydt Vallejo, California djheydt at gmail dot com
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| From | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-10-01 19:19 -0400 |
| Subject | Re: OT: Tess of the d?rbervilles |
| Message-ID | <MPG.325a0e8e5b4432df98a5cf@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #452630 |
In article <oEE3I3.EEJ@kithrup.com>, djheydt@kithrup.com says... > > In article <nsp457$43g$1@dont-email.me>, > David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote: > >On 10/1/2016 1:25 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > >> In article <20161001a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> wrote: > >>> > >>> Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote: > >>>> In article <MPG.325973c12038989898a5bc@news.eternal-september.org>, > >>>> J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> In article <yEFIQLKasr7XFwIY@dimetrodon.demon.co.uk>, > >>>>> brett@dimetrodon.me.uk says... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In message <nsci1p$28n$1@panix2.panix.com>, William December Starr > >>>>>> <wdstarr@panix.com> writes > >>>>>>> In article <62a5d409-2e96-4bff-ac2b-b0cdf92add79@googlegroups.com>, > >>>>>>> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> said: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> William December Starr wrote: > >>>>>>>>> William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> said: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> It was intended as a pure entertainment, but he wasn't describing > >>>>>>>>>> a fantasy world. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> If a novel is intended as entertainment but fails to entertain > >>>>>>>>> because of the Fifteen Deadly Words -- "I _do_ care what happens to > >>>>>>>>> these people, and I don't like it a bit" -- well, perhaps the word > >>>>>>>>> "failure" applies. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Speaking of fantasy worlds! When a novel is still in print one > >>>>>>>> hundred and twenty five years after publication, I think it's safe > >>>>>>>> to say that the word "failure" does not apply. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I did say "fails to entertain," not "fails to stay in print." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To stay in print it has to entertain, ultimately any other objective is > >>>>>> dependent on the novel being read. So it needs to actually convince the > >>>>>> reader that there is some value in finding out what happens next, that > >>>>>> is there must be entertainment value all else is secondary. > >>>>> > >>>>> Convince enough elderly maiden ladies that it is "lit her a tour" and it > >>>>> will continue to sell, inflicted unwillingly on legions of hapless > >>>>> schoolchildren to poison for ever any hope of their becoming interested > >>>>> in reading. > >>>> > >>>> My junior-uear English teacher was neither elderly, a maiden, nor > >>>> a lady, but he still made us read Willa Cather and Ralph Waldo > >>>> Emerson. > >>> > >>> _The Cambridge Companion to Science Fiction_ regards Egdar Allan Poe as > >>> the first writer to experiment with the science-fictional method. And > >>> Poe regards his contemporary Emerson as yet another Frogpondian > >>> Euphuist. A couple of Poe's essays eloquently elucidate the problem with > >>> Emerson. :0) > >>> > >>> It has been well said of the French orator, Dupin, that "he > >>> spoke, as nobody else, the language of every body;" and thus his > >>> manner seems to be exactly conversed in that of the Frogpondian > >>> Euphuists, who, on account of the familiar tone in which they > >>> lisp their outre phrases, may be said to speak, as every body, > >>> the language of nobody - that is to say, a language emphatically > >>> their own. [1] > >>> > >>> even when we let these modern hexameters go, as Greek, and > >>> merely hold them fast in their proper character of Longfellowian, > >>> or Feltonian, or Frogpondian, we must still condemn them as > >>> having been committed in a radical misconception of the > >>> philosophy of verse. [2] > >>> > >>> Note. > >>> > >>> 1. http://www.eapoe.org/works/pollin/brp20416.htm > >>> 2. http://www.bc.edu/schools/cas/english/poebostonexhibit/poesquarrel/34.html > >> > >> I have learned a new word: Frogpondian. Still don't know what it > >> means, but what the hey. > >> > > > >Person from Boston. I don't know why he referred to Boston as > >Frogpondium. > > Maybe there were frogs there? Two or three centuries ago? > Sounds likelier than, say, Frenchmen. There's a pond on Boston Common called "Frog Pond". For some reason unknown to me Poe associated Frog Pond with the Transcendentalists and called them "Frogpondians". Apparently he had issues with them.
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