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What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre?

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  What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) - 2016-09-15 02:36 +0000
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 21:59 -0500
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-09-17 18:06 -0700
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-14 21:07 -0600
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> - 2016-09-14 20:34 -0700
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-09-15 04:04 +0000
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-09-15 04:21 +0000
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? TB <tsbrueni@dcn.davis.ca.us> - 2016-09-14 21:37 -0700
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-09-15 03:34 -0600
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 06:21 -0700
        Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-09-15 08:34 -0700
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-09-15 08:39 -0700
        Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-09-15 14:18 -0700
          Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-09-15 15:18 -0700
            Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2016-09-16 21:03 +0000
              Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-09-16 15:21 -0700
                Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) - 2016-09-17 06:35 +0000
                  Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-09-17 08:34 -0700
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-09-15 11:06 -0700
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-09-15 16:46 -0700
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Dan Tilque <dtilque@frontier.com> - 2016-09-16 01:39 -0700
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Don Kuenz <g@crcomp.net> - 2016-09-16 14:16 +0000
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-09-16 09:17 -0600
        Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-09-16 11:56 -0400
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> - 2016-09-16 17:40 -0500
        Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-09-17 08:46 +0800
          Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2016-09-17 02:07 +0000
        Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Richard Todd <rmtodd@servalan.servalan.com> - 2016-09-17 13:26 -0500
          Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? "Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> - 2016-09-17 14:57 -0500
    Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? lenona321@yahoo.com - 2016-09-16 11:31 -0700
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-09-16 15:51 -0400
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-09-16 17:51 -0700
        Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-09-17 00:12 -0400
      Re: What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-09-17 08:49 -0700

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#451444 — What's the oldest modern example of the "wizard school" subgenre?

The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
get its start?  It didn't start with Rowling, of course, but the
earliest examples I can recall reading personally still date from the
late 1980s, and that seems much too late.  I'm less familiar with the
literature from before then (I was reading early Asimov and late
Heinlein in those days) -- how far back does it go?

In the subject header I said "modern" so let's take 1875 as the early
time limit for what might be "modern" in a fantasy context.  And let's
also specifically exclude the "wizard apprentice" version where the
teaching is one-on-one as opposed to a class setting with multiple
students learning the same things at the same time.

I gather that this is a known trope in the manga/anime world, so let's
also keep this to specifically written works, without pictures,
published in English (translations ok).

-GAWollman

-- 
Garrett A. Wollman    | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers.         | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

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#451446

wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) wrote in news:nrd1f8$25dk$1
@grapevine.csail.mit.edu:

> The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
> school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
> recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
> get its start?  It didn't start with Rowling, of course, but the
> earliest examples I can recall reading personally still date from the
> late 1980s, and that seems much too late.  I'm less familiar with the
> literature from before then (I was reading early Asimov and late
> Heinlein in those days) -- how far back does it go?
> 
> In the subject header I said "modern" so let's take 1875 as the early
> time limit for what might be "modern" in a fantasy context.  And let's
> also specifically exclude the "wizard apprentice" version where the
> teaching is one-on-one as opposed to a class setting with multiple
> students learning the same things at the same time.
> 
> I gather that this is a known trope in the manga/anime world, so let's
> also keep this to specifically written works, without pictures,
> published in English (translations ok).

There's a wizard school in LeGuin's 'Earthsea' trilogy (1968), but 
it only appears for a chapter or two in the first book.

If tertiary education counts, there's the "Unseen University" in
Discworld, but that's still early 80's.

The 'Sorcerors Apprentice' trope goes back to a 1797 poem by Goethe,
but I don't think that is what you're after.

If you're limiting yourself to 'school stories', that cuts it back a
lot. 

TV Tropes suggests
"The 1953 short story "The Wall Around The World" by Theodore Cogswell"
as the progenitor.
The article has a good list.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WizardingSchool

pt

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#451647

On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 21:59:56 -0500, Cryptoengineer
<treifamily@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

>There's a wizard school in LeGuin's 'Earthsea' trilogy (1968), but 
>it only appears for a chapter or two in the first book.

     It is in the third book a bit, too.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#451447

On 9/14/2016 8:36 PM, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
> school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
> recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
> get its start?  It didn't start with Rowling, of course, but the
> earliest examples I can recall reading personally still date from the
> late 1980s, and that seems much too late.

The first "Worst Witch" book was published in 1974.  I don't think you'd 
see one from before Bewitched hit the airwaves.

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#451448

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 9:36:26 PM UTC-5, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
> school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
> recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
> get its start?  It didn't start with Rowling, of course, but the
> earliest examples I can recall reading personally still date from the
> late 1980s, and that seems much too late.  I'm less familiar with the
> literature from before then (I was reading early Asimov and late
> Heinlein in those days) -- how far back does it go?
> 
> In the subject header I said "modern" so let's take 1875 as the early
> time limit for what might be "modern" in a fantasy context.  And let's
> also specifically exclude the "wizard apprentice" version where the
> teaching is one-on-one as opposed to a class setting with multiple
> students learning the same things at the same time.
> 
> I gather that this is a known trope in the manga/anime world, so let's
> also keep this to specifically written works, without pictures,
> published in English (translations ok).

Robert Sheckley's 1954 short story "The Accountant" is about a boy who is doing poorly in wizard school. You can read it here:

http://www.preservearticles.com/201012291903/story-on-a-boy-who-wants-to-become-an-accountant.html

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#451452

Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 9:36:26 PM UTC-5, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>> The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
>> school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
>> recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
>> get its start?  It didn't start with Rowling, of course, but the
>> earliest examples I can recall reading personally still date from the
>> late 1980s, and that seems much too late.  I'm less familiar with the
>> literature from before then (I was reading early Asimov and late
>> Heinlein in those days) -- how far back does it go?
>>
>> In the subject header I said "modern" so let's take 1875 as the early
>> time limit for what might be "modern" in a fantasy context.  And let's
>> also specifically exclude the "wizard apprentice" version where the
>> teaching is one-on-one as opposed to a class setting with multiple
>> students learning the same things at the same time.
>>
>> I gather that this is a known trope in the manga/anime world, so let's
>> also keep this to specifically written works, without pictures,
>> published in English (translations ok).
>
> Robert Sheckley's 1954 short story "The Accountant" is about a boy who is doing poorly in wizard school. You can r
ead it here:
>
> http://www.preservearticles.com/201012291903/story-on-a-boy-who-wants-to-become-an-accountant.html

From the story:

        Witchcraft had been steadily declining over the centuries.
    The old families died out, or were snatched by demonic forces,
    or became scientists.

From "Atheism is Witchcraft" thread:

        Science is witchcraft with their strange symbols and rules.

I just invented a new word: Plagiarism. :0)

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

    When you steal from one author, it's plagiarism; if you steal from
many, it's research. - Mizner

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#451453

In article <nrd1f8$25dk$1@grapevine.csail.mit.edu>,
Garrett Wollman <wollman@bimajority.org> wrote:
>The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
>school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
>recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
>get its start?  It didn't start with Rowling, of course, but the
>earliest examples I can recall reading personally still date from the
>late 1980s, and that seems much too late.  I'm less familiar with the
>literature from before then (I was reading early Asimov and late
>Heinlein in those days) -- how far back does it go?
>
>In the subject header I said "modern" so let's take 1875 as the early
>time limit for what might be "modern" in a fantasy context.  And let's
>also specifically exclude the "wizard apprentice" version where the
>teaching is one-on-one as opposed to a class setting with multiple
>students learning the same things at the same time.
>
>I gather that this is a known trope in the manga/anime world, so let's
>also keep this to specifically written works, without pictures,
>published in English (translations ok).

Well, there's always T. H. White's Merlyn instructing Arthur (and
occasionally Kay).  "All you need is a log with a teacher on one
end and a student on the other."

-- 
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

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#451454

What is the earliest story about a wizard school period?

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#451463

wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) wrote:

>The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
>school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
>recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
>get its start?  It didn't start with Rowling, of course, but the
>earliest examples I can recall reading personally still date from the
>late 1980s, and that seems much too late.  I'm less familiar with the
>literature from before then (I was reading early Asimov and late
>Heinlein in those days) -- how far back does it go?
>
>In the subject header I said "modern" so let's take 1875 as the early
>time limit for what might be "modern" in a fantasy context.  And let's
>also specifically exclude the "wizard apprentice" version where the
>teaching is one-on-one as opposed to a class setting with multiple
>students learning the same things at the same time.
>
>I gather that this is a known trope in the manga/anime world, so let's
>also keep this to specifically written works, without pictures,
>published in English (translations ok).

You don't want pictures, so that also rules out the Xavier Institute,
whatever it's called.
-- 
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

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#451469

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 5:34:31 AM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
> wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
> 
> >The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
> >school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
> >recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
> >get its start?  It didn't start with Rowling, of course, but the
> >earliest examples I can recall reading personally still date from the
> >late 1980s, and that seems much too late.  I'm less familiar with the
> >literature from before then (I was reading early Asimov and late
> >Heinlein in those days) -- how far back does it go?
> >
> >In the subject header I said "modern" so let's take 1875 as the early
> >time limit for what might be "modern" in a fantasy context.  And let's
> >also specifically exclude the "wizard apprentice" version where the
> >teaching is one-on-one as opposed to a class setting with multiple
> >students learning the same things at the same time.
> >
> >I gather that this is a known trope in the manga/anime world, so let's
> >also keep this to specifically written works, without pictures,
> >published in English (translations ok).
> 
> You don't want pictures, so that also rules out the Xavier Institute,
> whatever it's called.
> -- 
> We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

It's not clear what the OP is counting.

Shamans, priests, and wizards have had apprentices and acolytes since time
immemorial, and there have been stories about them all along. But that's
one on one, on-the-job training.

Adults have been described as studying magic at universities as long as those
institutions have existed - after all, thats where the non-religious books were.
But its not a 'wizard school', I suspect, and again, it's individual, not group.

I think he may be after a subset where magic is taught to groups of minors in 
a formal classroom setting by people whose primary role is teaching, ala 
Hogworts. If it's a boarding school as well, and most the action takes
place at the school, we're talking about a specialized magical case of the English 'school story'.

pt

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#451476

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 7:21:29 AM UTC-6, Peter Trei wrote:
 
> It's not clear what the OP is counting.
> 
> Shamans, priests, and wizards have had apprentices and acolytes since time
> immemorial, and there have been stories about them all along. But that's
> one on one, on-the-job training.
> 
> Adults have been described as studying magic at universities as long as those
> institutions have existed - after all, thats where the non-religious books were.
> But its not a 'wizard school', I suspect, and again, it's individual, not group.
> 
> I think he may be after a subset where magic is taught to groups of minors in 
> a formal classroom setting by people whose primary role is teaching, ala 
> Hogworts. If it's a boarding school as well, and most the action takes
> place at the school, we're talking about a specialized magical case of the English 'school story'.

I do think that stories which predate Harry Potter, but which closely resemble 
it, say, for example, in the Goosebumps young adult series, would be of the 
greatest interest. Particularly for an aspiring author who wants to cash in on 
the new demand for the genre without worrying about being sued.

Can you say "Battlestar Galactica"? I knew you could.

John Savard

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#451478

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 5:34:31 AM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
> wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
> 
> >The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
> >school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
> >recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
> >get its start?  It didn't start with Rowling, of course, but the
> >earliest examples I can recall reading personally still date from the
> >late 1980s, and that seems much too late.  I'm less familiar with the
> >literature from before then (I was reading early Asimov and late
> >Heinlein in those days) -- how far back does it go?
> >
> >In the subject header I said "modern" so let's take 1875 as the early
> >time limit for what might be "modern" in a fantasy context.  And let's
> >also specifically exclude the "wizard apprentice" version where the
> >teaching is one-on-one as opposed to a class setting with multiple
> >students learning the same things at the same time.
> >
> >I gather that this is a known trope in the manga/anime world, so let's
> >also keep this to specifically written works, without pictures,
> >published in English (translations ok).
> 
> You don't want pictures, so that also rules out the Xavier Institute,
> whatever it's called.

Originally: "Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters"
Fictional Location: Salem Center, NY (somewhere in Westchester
County, in the original Lee/Kirby. Claremont named the town.)

BUT.....

That's not a wizard's school, but an academy for, if not expressly
super-heroes, at least those with "wild talents" explained, however
improbably, by genetic mutation.

Did 2000 AD's Luke Kirby go to wizard school?  Timothy Hunter
didn't.  He had a slew of mentors, though.

Kevin R

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#451507

On Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:39:55 UTC+1, Kevrob  wrote:
> On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 5:34:31 AM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
> > wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
> > 
> > >The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
> > >school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
> > >recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
> > >get its start?  It didn't start with Rowling, of course, but the
> > >earliest examples I can recall reading personally still date from the
> > >late 1980s, and that seems much too late.  I'm less familiar with the
> > >literature from before then (I was reading early Asimov and late
> > >Heinlein in those days) -- how far back does it go?
> > >
> > >In the subject header I said "modern" so let's take 1875 as the early
> > >time limit for what might be "modern" in a fantasy context.  And let's
> > >also specifically exclude the "wizard apprentice" version where the
> > >teaching is one-on-one as opposed to a class setting with multiple
> > >students learning the same things at the same time.
> > >
> > >I gather that this is a known trope in the manga/anime world, so let's
> > >also keep this to specifically written works, without pictures,
> > >published in English (translations ok).
> > 
> > You don't want pictures, so that also rules out the Xavier Institute,
> > whatever it's called.
> 
> Originally: "Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters"
> Fictional Location: Salem Center, NY (somewhere in Westchester
> County, in the original Lee/Kirby. Claremont named the town.)
> 
> BUT.....
> 
> That's not a wizard's school, but an academy for, if not expressly
> super-heroes, at least those with "wild talents" explained, however
> improbably, by genetic mutation.

But "Salem" rings a bell - and they nearly (?)
had "The Scarlet Witch" as a student.  They
did have another named "Magik" (not a coincidence).

> Did 2000 AD's Luke Kirby go to wizard school?  Timothy Hunter
> didn't.  He had a slew of mentors, though.

I think Timothy Hunter does attend a magic college 
for several years but we don't get to see inside it?

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#451516

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 5:18:31 PM UTC-4, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Thursday, 15 September 2016 16:39:55 UTC+1, Kevrob  wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 5:34:31 AM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
> > > wollman@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
> > > 
> > > >The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
> > > >school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
> > > >recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
> > > >get its start?  It didn't start with Rowling, of course, but the
> > > >earliest examples I can recall reading personally still date from the
> > > >late 1980s, and that seems much too late.  I'm less familiar with the
> > > >literature from before then (I was reading early Asimov and late
> > > >Heinlein in those days) -- how far back does it go?
> > > >
> > > >In the subject header I said "modern" so let's take 1875 as the early
> > > >time limit for what might be "modern" in a fantasy context.  And let's
> > > >also specifically exclude the "wizard apprentice" version where the
> > > >teaching is one-on-one as opposed to a class setting with multiple
> > > >students learning the same things at the same time.
> > > >
> > > >I gather that this is a known trope in the manga/anime world, so let's
> > > >also keep this to specifically written works, without pictures,
> > > >published in English (translations ok).
> > > 
> > > You don't want pictures, so that also rules out the Xavier Institute,
> > > whatever it's called.
> > 
> > Originally: "Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters"
> > Fictional Location: Salem Center, NY (somewhere in Westchester
> > County, in the original Lee/Kirby. Claremont named the town.)
> > 
> > BUT.....
> > 
> > That's not a wizard's school, but an academy for, if not expressly
> > super-heroes, at least those with "wild talents" explained, however
> > improbably, by genetic mutation.
> 
> But "Salem" rings a bell - and they nearly (?)
> had "The Scarlet Witch" as a student.  They
> did have another named "Magik" (not a coincidence).
>

Claremont had the dreadful habit of dragging in "non-mutant"
power sets.  Originally, the SW was no sorceress.  That was
added in an Avengers plot by Steve (ObSF: The Point Man) Engelhart,
when Wanda went to study with Agatha Harkness, a witch created for
the Fantastic Four strip by Lee & Kirby, in 1970.  Magik, aka
Illyana Nikolievna Rasputina and Colussus's baby sister) had the
wizardry tacked onto mutant teleportation powers.  These writers,.
who I genuinely like - Engelhart wrote the best JLA since DC
booted Gardner Fox off the book in 1968.* 

I scratched my head, and googuled, and found that North Salem, NY, 
has a section, a hamlet, called Salem Center!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Salem,_New_York#Communities_and_locations_in_North_Salem    
 
> > Did 2000 AD's Luke Kirby go to wizard school?  Timothy Hunter
> > didn't.  He had a slew of mentors, though.
> 
> I think Timothy Hunter does attend a magic college 
> for several years but we don't get to see inside it?

Dunno.  "Books of Magic" was published after I was FAFIAted from 
/m/y/ /a/d/d/i/c/t/i/o/n/ /t/o/ comics collecting and comics fandom.

Kevin R

* Fox and the other older writers were asking, as freelancers,
  for health insurance.  They got shown the door, instead.

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#451585

In article <eadd1c40-3080-4898-8012-a59d9bd960fc@googlegroups.com>,
Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Magik, aka
>Illyana Nikolievna Rasputina and Colussus's baby sister) had the
>wizardry tacked onto mutant teleportation powers.  

She got the magic and the teleportation at exactly the same time,
in exactly the same set of stories.  I don't see how you can possibly
justify saying that one is "tacked onto" the other.

-- 
   David Goldfarb          |           "You do it.  I'm bitter."
goldfarbdj@gmail.com       |
goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu  |                  -- MST3K

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#451587

On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 5:15:03 PM UTC-4, David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article <eadd1c40-3080-4898-8012-a59d9bd960fc@googlegroups.com>,
> Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >Magik, aka
> >Illyana Nikolievna Rasputina and Colussus's baby sister) had the
> >wizardry tacked onto mutant teleportation powers.  
> 
> She got the magic and the teleportation at exactly the same time,
> in exactly the same set of stories.  I don't see how you can possibly
> justify saying that one is "tacked onto" the other.

The magic was the result of living in Belasco's dimension for
a (subjectively) long time.  The mutant power of teleportation
was inbuilt.  It's one of those annoying bolt-ons of fantasy to
an SF setting that comics, if not exclusively, are known for.

Kevin R
(Channeling his inner Dr 13)

"I hate magic. I really do..." - Anthony Stark, IRON MAN V1, #150

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#451608

In article <edf79418-83bf-452b-b8aa-b7e785fb2358@googlegroups.com>,
Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 5:15:03 PM UTC-4, David Goldfarb wrote:
>> In article <eadd1c40-3080-4898-8012-a59d9bd960fc@googlegroups.com>,
>> Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> >Magik, aka
>> >Illyana Nikolievna Rasputina and Colussus's baby sister) had the
>> >wizardry tacked onto mutant teleportation powers.  
>> 
>> She got the magic and the teleportation at exactly the same time,
>> in exactly the same set of stories.  I don't see how you can possibly
>> justify saying that one is "tacked onto" the other.
>
>The magic was the result of living in Belasco's dimension for
>a (subjectively) long time.  The mutant power of teleportation
>was inbuilt.  It's one of those annoying bolt-ons of fantasy to
>an SF setting that comics, if not exclusively, are known for.

Okay, but it's not a matter of adding on magic to a previously-SF
character, like having the Scarlet Witch actually study witchcraft.
The teleportation and the magic were both integral parts of the
character when she was created.

(There *was* a period where, in retrospect and even at the time,
she had already been aged up and was obviously going to have powers
of some sort, but Claremont hadn't yet decided what they were going
to be and what the details of her backstory was.  This makes the
graphic novel _God Loves, Man Kills_ ring a bit oddly in the parts
which involve her.)

-- 
   David Goldfarb          |"The number of times I have been declared 
goldfarbdj@gmail.com       |dead is statistically insignificant,
goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu  |although admittedly non-zero."  -- James Nicoll

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#451621

On Saturday, 17 September 2016 07:45:04 UTC+1, David Goldfarb  wrote:
> In article <edf79418-83bf-452b-b8aa-b7e785fb2358@googlegroups.com>,
> Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 5:15:03 PM UTC-4, David Goldfarb wrote:
> >> In article <eadd1c40-3080-4898-8012-a59d9bd960fc@googlegroups.com>,
> >> Kevrob  <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >> >Magik, aka
> >> >Illyana Nikolievna Rasputina and Colussus's baby sister) had the
> >> >wizardry tacked onto mutant teleportation powers.  
> >> 
> >> She got the magic and the teleportation at exactly the same time,
> >> in exactly the same set of stories.  I don't see how you can possibly
> >> justify saying that one is "tacked onto" the other.
> >
> >The magic was the result of living in Belasco's dimension for
> >a (subjectively) long time.  The mutant power of teleportation
> >was inbuilt.  It's one of those annoying bolt-ons of fantasy to
> >an SF setting that comics, if not exclusively, are known for.
> 
> Okay, but it's not a matter of adding on magic to a previously-SF
> character, like having the Scarlet Witch actually study witchcraft.
> The teleportation and the magic were both integral parts of the
> character when she was created.
> 
> (There *was* a period where, in retrospect and even at the time,
> she had already been aged up and was obviously going to have powers
> of some sort, but Claremont hadn't yet decided what they were going
> to be and what the details of her backstory was.  This makes the
> graphic novel _God Loves, Man Kills_ ring a bit oddly in the parts
> which involve her.)

Yeah, she was abducted in the "Uncanny X-Men" comic and
immediately retrieved as a teenager, and meanwhile there 
was a "limited series" that explained what happened 
in-between - involving not-exactly-parallel-universe 
versions of the X-Men who had fared badly in a previous
version of the encounter with Belasco

AIUI the space-time teleportation discs are a natural 
phenomenon in the Limbo Dimension, which is to say, 
they're magical; Illyana's mutant power turns out to
be to control them - more or less.  But I may have this 
confused.

At one point, she simply teleports out of Limbo, but
it isn't that easy.

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#451490

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Garrett Wollman 
wrote:

> The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
> school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
> recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
> get its start?  It didn't start with Rowling, of course, but the
> earliest examples I can recall reading personally still date from the
> late 1980s, and that seems much too late.

Of course you've already gotten significantly earlier examples.  But 
in Tamora Pierce's first book, the first part of which was published 
in 1983 and written rather earlier, the heroine aspires to knighthood 
while her twin brother wants to be a wizard, and their father wants 
the opposite for them.  So they trade places on the road.  I'm pretty 
sure an actual school for wizards is implied, and briefly seen (the 
brother shows up a few times in the series the book turned into).  
Pierce likes to depict magicians who don't fit into wizard schools' 
strictures (see also, of course, the precedent of Le Guin), and did 
so both in subsequent series in the same setting as her first book, 
and in a new setting whose stories all focus on the teaching of 
wizards, and which started appearing only in 1997.

When I was a kid, I was *really*, *really* interested in Le Guin's 
school, which I don't think I would've been if I'd found any more 
sustained treatment of the subject.  I also liked McCaffrey's 
<Dragonsinger>, set at Harper Hall, more than <Dragonsong> which 
isn't (and which I can now see is the better book); I think I liked 
structured speculative school stories in general, so no doubt I'd've 
been a sitting duck for Rowling.  If any adult noticed this interest 
of mine (may not have happened), they didn't come up with anything 
to recommend.

Joe Bernstein

-- 
Joe Bernstein, writer and tax preparer               <joe@sfbooks.com>

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#451523

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> The last two Commonweal books are basically one extended "wizard
> school" story, in two volumes.  And since I've been reading them
> recently, I've gotten to wondering: where and how did this subgenre
> get its start?  It didn't start with Rowling, of course, but the
> earliest examples I can recall reading personally still date from the
> late 1980s, and that seems much too late.  I'm less familiar with the
> literature from before then (I was reading early Asimov and late
> Heinlein in those days) -- how far back does it go?
> 
> In the subject header I said "modern" so let's take 1875 as the early
> time limit for what might be "modern" in a fantasy context.  And let's
> also specifically exclude the "wizard apprentice" version where the
> teaching is one-on-one as opposed to a class setting with multiple
> students learning the same things at the same time.

  Depends what you mean by "wizard". Do Castaneda's books count? They describe a modern Yaqui "sorceror" teaching multiple students, supposedly following an ancient tradition. The first was published in 1968.


  Mark L. Fergerson

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