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Good new altenate history authors?

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  Good new altenate history authors? Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> - 2016-06-06 08:10 -0700
    Re: Good new altenate history authors? Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-06 19:56 -0600
      Re: Good new altenate history authors? Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-07 04:13 +0000
      Re: Good new altenate history authors? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-06-07 14:20 -0400
    Re: Good new altenate history authors? David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-06-06 21:29 -0500
      Re: Good new altenate history authors? Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-07 06:08 +0000
        Re: Good new altenate history authors? Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> - 2016-06-06 23:14 -0700
          Re: Good new altenate history authors? Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-09 17:06 +0000
            Re: Good new altenate history authors? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-09 11:04 -0700
            Re: Good new altenate history authors? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-06-09 12:59 -0700
      Re: Good new altenate history authors? Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-07 04:38 -0700
        Re: Good new altenate history authors? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-06-07 09:28 -0700
      Re: Good new altenate history authors? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-06-07 14:23 -0400
        Re: Good new altenate history authors? Richard Hershberger <rrhersh@gmail.com> - 2016-06-10 06:38 -0700
          Re: Good new altenate history authors? Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-06-10 08:23 -0700
            Re: Good new altenate history authors? Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> - 2016-06-10 14:33 -0700
          Re: Good new altenate history authors? "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> - 2016-06-10 12:48 -0400

#441329 — Good new altenate history authors?

I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of Turtledove's stuff and the SM Stirling alternate history stuff, along with Stross's Merchant Princes novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for are authors on the way up with stuff that plays the AH reasonably straight--not the Roman empire survives because they tamed dragons and Emperor Marilyn Monroe is now invading President Jeb Bush's US or Nazi sorcerers.

I have an ulterior motive for asking this though it's a benign one. I edit an APA (Amateur Press Association) distro called Point of Divergence. It's not a for sale thing and my intention here is not to promote it. POD is just a bunch of alternate history enthusiasts who write amateur zines 4 or 5 times a year which I gather together and send out to the contributors and a few others.

Every few issues I either interview an alternate history guest author or (more often) ask them to post an excerpt from their fiction. It's good exposure for the authors, getting their stuff in front of a group of obsessive AH fans, including a couple of Sidewise Award judges and it gives us a chance to see new AH authors in action.

In any case, who is good and relatively new in AH?

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#441341

Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> wrote:

>I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of Turtledove's stuff and the SM Stirling alternate history stuff, along with Stross's Merchant Princes novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for are authors on the way up with stuff that plays the AH reasonably straight--not the Roman empire survives because they tamed dragons and Emperor Marilyn Monroe is now invading President Jeb Bush's US or Nazi sorcerers.
>
>I have an ulterior motive for asking this though it's a benign one. I edit an APA (Amateur Press Association) distro called Point of Divergence. It's not a for sale thing and my intention here is not to promote it. POD is just a bunch of alternate history enthusiasts who write amateur zines 4 or 5 times a year which I gather together and send out to the contributors and a few others.
>
>Every few issues I either interview an alternate history guest author or (more often) ask them to post an excerpt from their fiction. It's good exposure for the authors, getting their stuff in front of a group of obsessive AH fans, including a couple of Sidewise Award judges and it gives us a chance to see new AH authors in action.
>
>In any case, who is good and relatively new in AH?

L Neil Smith's stuff is a bit preachy, but seems to fit.  There's a
minor change in the constitution but the main divergence is when
Washington is executed as a traitor.
-- 
We are geeks.  Resistance is voltage over current.

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#441356

Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> wrote:
> Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of Turtledove's stuff
>> and the SM Stirling alternate history stuff, along with Stross's
>> Merchant Princes novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for
>> are authors on the way up with stuff that plays the AH reasonably
>> straight--not the Roman empire survives because they tamed dragons
>> and Emperor Marilyn Monroe is now invading President Jeb Bush's
>> US or Nazi sorcerers.
>>
>> I have an ulterior motive for asking this though it's a benign one. I
>> edit an APA (Amateur Press Association) distro called Point of
>> Divergence. It's not a for sale thing and my intention here is not to
>> promote it. POD is just a bunch of alternate history enthusiasts who
>> write amateur zines 4 or 5 times a year which I gather together and
>> send out to the contributors and a few others.
>>
>> Every few issues I either interview an alternate history guest author
>> or (more often) ask them to post an excerpt from their fiction. It's
>> good exposure for the authors, getting their stuff in front of a
>> group of obsessive AH fans, including a couple of Sidewise Award
>> judges and it gives us a chance to see new AH authors in action.
>>
>>In any case, who is good and relatively new in AH?
>
> L Neil Smith's stuff is a bit preachy, but seems to fit.  There's a
> minor change in the constitution but the main divergence is when
> Washington is executed as a traitor.

Good catch. Besides the _The Probability Broach_ there's also "The Lucky
Strike" by Robinson. Captain January's mental deliberations at the start
of "Lucky" remind me of _The Things They Carried_ by O'Brien.

    They carried the common secret of cowardice barely restrained,
    the instinct to run or freeze or hide, and in many respects
    this was the heaviest burden of all, for it could never be put
    down, it required prefect balance and perfect posture. They
    carried their reputations. They carried the soldier's greatest
    fear, which was the fear of blushing. Men killed, and died,
    because they were embarrassed not to. It was what had brought
    them to the war in the first place, nothing positive, no dreams
    of glory or honor, just to avoid the blush of dishonor. They
    died so as not to die of embarrassment.

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

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#441388

On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 19:56:23 -0600, Greg Goss
<gossg@gossg.org> wrote
in<news:drmnudFknrtU2@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of
>> Turtledove's stuff and the SM Stirling alternate
>> history stuff, along with Stross's Merchant Princes
>> novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for are
>> authors on the way up with stuff that plays the AH
>> reasonably straight [...]

> L Neil Smith's stuff is a bit preachy, but seems to fit.  

Smith is hardly an author on the way up: _The Probability
Broach_, his first (and probably best) came out in 1980.

[...]

Brian
-- 
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties.  The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

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#441346

On 2016-06-06, Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of Turtledove's stuff and the
> SM Stirling alternate history stuff, along with Stross's Merchant Princes
> novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for are authors on the way up
> with stuff that plays the AH reasonably straight--not the Roman empire
> survives because they tamed dragons and Emperor Marilyn Monroe is now
> invading President Jeb Bush's US or Nazi sorcerers.

The very first to spring to mind is actually a webcomic, found at
girlgeniusonline.com . An alternate Europe (and England) in a universe where
devisors, called "sparks", build gadgets and organisms that toy with the laws
of physics and are susceptible to Science-Related Memetic Disorder as well
( < http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceRelatedMemeticDisorder > )
{DO NOT CLICK THE ABOVE LINK IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE YOU NEED TO DO TODAY}.

Dave
-- 
\/David	DeLaney	posting	thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that	grows the flower
It's not the clock that	slows the hour 	The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is	all it takes to	make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE	HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/	-net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

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#441362

David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 2016-06-06, Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of Turtledove's stuff and the
>> SM Stirling alternate history stuff, along with Stross's Merchant Princes
>> novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for are authors on the way up
>> with stuff that plays the AH reasonably straight--not the Roman empire
>> survives because they tamed dragons and Emperor Marilyn Monroe is now
>> invading President Jeb Bush's US or Nazi sorcerers.
>
> The very first to spring to mind is actually a webcomic, found at
> girlgeniusonline.com . An alternate Europe (and England) in a universe where
> devisors, called "sparks", build gadgets and organisms that toy with the laws
> of physics and are susceptible to Science-Related Memetic Disorder as well
> ( < http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceRelatedMemeticDisorder > )
> {DO NOT CLICK THE ABOVE LINK IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE YOU NEED TO DO TODAY}.

Yet another (older than GG) AH is _The Man in the High Castle_ by PKD.

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

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#441363

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 4:08:42 PM UTC+10, Don Kuenz wrote:
> David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > On 2016-06-06, Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of Turtledove's stuff and the
> >> SM Stirling alternate history stuff, along with Stross's Merchant Princes
> >> novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for are authors on the way up
> >> with stuff that plays the AH reasonably straight--not the Roman empire
> >> survives because they tamed dragons and Emperor Marilyn Monroe is now
> >> invading President Jeb Bush's US or Nazi sorcerers.
> >
> > The very first to spring to mind is actually a webcomic, found at
> > girlgeniusonline.com . An alternate Europe (and England) in a universe where
> > devisors, called "sparks", build gadgets and organisms that toy with the laws
> > of physics and are susceptible to Science-Related Memetic Disorder as well
> > ( < http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceRelatedMemeticDisorder > )
> > {DO NOT CLICK THE ABOVE LINK IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE YOU NEED TO DO TODAY}.
> 
> Yet another (older than GG) AH is _The Man in the High Castle_ by PKD.

It doesn't qualify, being neither good nor new.

-Moriarty

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#441608

Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 4:08:42 PM UTC+10, Don Kuenz wrote:
>> David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > On 2016-06-06, Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of Turtledove's stuff and the
>> >> SM Stirling alternate history stuff, along with Stross's Merchant Princes
>> >> novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for are authors on the way up
>> >> with stuff that plays the AH reasonably straight--not the Roman empire
>> >> survives because they tamed dragons and Emperor Marilyn Monroe is now
>> >> invading President Jeb Bush's US or Nazi sorcerers.
>> >
>> > The very first to spring to mind is actually a webcomic, found at
>> > girlgeniusonline.com . An alternate Europe (and England) in a universe where
>> > devisors, called "sparks", build gadgets and organisms that toy with the laws
>> > of physics and are susceptible to Science-Related Memetic Disorder as well
>> > ( < http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceRelatedMemeticDisorde
r > )
>> > {DO NOT CLICK THE ABOVE LINK IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE YOU NEED TO DO TODAY}.
>>
>> Yet another (older than GG) AH is _The Man in the High Castle_ by PKD.
>
> It doesn't qualify, being neither good nor new.

There's an even older novella named "Two Dooms" by Cyril M. Kornbluth
that piques my own interest. It includes time travel, AH, a desert
setting, and peyote. It's on order now. Here's a review:

    Review: "Two Dooms" by C. M. Kornbluth

    This short story was originally published in 1958, and can
    be classified as a science fantasy piece concerned with
    alternate history. Cyril M. Kornbluth is one of the most
    gifted short fiction writers one may encounter in the
    realm of speculative fiction, and this has to be one of
    his most brilliant works, though it runs only 34
    closely-printed pages. Kornbluth uses a plot-device
    wherein he makes his central character ingest a peyote
    button administered by a Hopi medicine man. Our protagonist
    is an overworked, ethically-troubled young scientist,
    Dr. Edward Royland, working under Oppenheimer on the
    Manhattan Project in the desert of New Mexico. The peyote
    and a kind of quantum-shamanic ritual open a temporal
    portal for the protagonist, who is taken on an odyssey
    in which he experiences a far future America where the
    German Nazis and the Japanese Imperialists are the winners
    of World War II, and the feudalistic, fascistic, racist,
    and anti-intellectual tenets of these powers have been
    allowed to develop in the former United States, which
    these two powers have long ago divided between them in a
    kind of interlocking confederacy. The result of this has
    been a complete devolution of the free and democratic
    society the time-traveling young scientist had once known
    back in the mid-1940s. In terms of literary publication,
    this short story anticipates the same scenario found in
    Phillip K. Dick's brilliant novel, The Man in the High
    Castle, by six years, and in many ways Kornbluth's tale of
    an Axis Powers' victory conveys a far more intense experience
    for the reader in its exploration of the ramifications of
    both Asian and European versions of fascism upon the lot of
    the common person, as well as the wreckage it makes of
    education and scientific advancement.

    (excerpt)

    http://goodshortfictiontoread.blogspot.com/2010/03/review-two-dooms-by-c-m-kornbluth.html

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

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#441612

On Thursday, 9 June 2016 18:06:06 UTC+1, Don Kuenz  wrote:
>  In terms of literary publication,
>     this short story anticipates the same scenario found in
>     Phillip K. Dick's brilliant novel, The Man in the High
>     Castle, by six years, and in many ways Kornbluth's tale of
>     an Axis Powers' victory conveys a far more intense experience
>     for the reader in its exploration of the ramifications of
>     both Asian and European versions of fascism upon the lot of
>     the common person, as well as the wreckage it makes of
>     education and scientific advancement.

And of civil rights, I expect.

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#441628

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 1:06:06 PM UTC-4, Don Kuenz wrote:
> Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 4:08:42 PM UTC+10, Don Kuenz wrote:
> >> David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> > On 2016-06-06, Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of Turtledove's stuff and the
> >> >> SM Stirling alternate history stuff, along with Stross's Merchant Princes
> >> >> novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for are authors on the way up
> >> >> with stuff that plays the AH reasonably straight--not the Roman empire
> >> >> survives because they tamed dragons and Emperor Marilyn Monroe is now
> >> >> invading President Jeb Bush's US or Nazi sorcerers.
> >> >
> >> > The very first to spring to mind is actually a webcomic, found at
> >> > girlgeniusonline.com . An alternate Europe (and England) in a universe where
> >> > devisors, called "sparks", build gadgets and organisms that toy with the laws
> >> > of physics and are susceptible to Science-Related Memetic Disorder as well
> >> > ( < http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceRelatedMemeticDisorde
> r > )
> >> > {DO NOT CLICK THE ABOVE LINK IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE YOU NEED TO DO TODAY}.
> >>
> >> Yet another (older than GG) AH is _The Man in the High Castle_ by PKD.
> >
> > It doesn't qualify, being neither good nor new.
> 
> There's an even older novella named "Two Dooms" by Cyril M. Kornbluth
> that piques my own interest. It includes time travel, AH, a desert
> setting, and peyote. It's on order now. Here's a review:
> 
>     Review: "Two Dooms" by C. M. Kornbluth
> 
>     This short story was originally published in 1958, and can
>     be classified as a science fantasy piece concerned with
>     alternate history. Cyril M. Kornbluth is one of the most
>     gifted short fiction writers one may encounter in the
>     realm of speculative fiction, and this has to be one of
>     his most brilliant works, though it runs only 34
>     closely-printed pages. Kornbluth uses a plot-device
>     wherein he makes his central character ingest a peyote
>     button administered by a Hopi medicine man. Our protagonist
>     is an overworked, ethically-troubled young scientist,
>     Dr. Edward Royland, working under Oppenheimer on the
>     Manhattan Project in the desert of New Mexico. The peyote
>     and a kind of quantum-shamanic ritual open a temporal
>     portal for the protagonist, who is taken on an odyssey
>     in which he experiences a far future America where the
>     German Nazis and the Japanese Imperialists are the winners
>     of World War II, and the feudalistic, fascistic, racist,
>     and anti-intellectual tenets of these powers have been
>     allowed to develop in the former United States, which
>     these two powers have long ago divided between them in a
>     kind of interlocking confederacy. The result of this has
>     been a complete devolution of the free and democratic
>     society the time-traveling young scientist had once known
>     back in the mid-1940s. In terms of literary publication,
>     this short story anticipates the same scenario found in
>     Phillip K. Dick's brilliant novel, The Man in the High
>     Castle, by six years, and in many ways Kornbluth's tale of
>     an Axis Powers' victory conveys a far more intense experience
>     for the reader in its exploration of the ramifications of
>     both Asian and European versions of fascism upon the lot of
>     the common person, as well as the wreckage it makes of
>     education and scientific advancement.
> 
>     (excerpt)
> 
>     http://goodshortfictiontoread.blogspot.com/2010/03/review-two-dooms-by-c-m-kornbluth.html

Using peyote to "time travel" or to slip between worlds is interesting.
That's 10 years before Casteneda's "Teachings of Don Juan" and 20 before
Chayefsky's "Altered States."  

Kevin R

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#441368

On Tuesday, 7 June 2016 03:29:36 UTC+1, David DeLaney  wrote:
> On 2016-06-06, Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of Turtledove's stuff and the
> > SM Stirling alternate history stuff, along with Stross's Merchant Princes
> > novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for are authors on the way up
> > with stuff that plays the AH reasonably straight--not the Roman empire
> > survives because they tamed dragons and Emperor Marilyn Monroe is now
> > invading President Jeb Bush's US or Nazi sorcerers.
> 
> The very first to spring to mind is actually a webcomic, found at
> girlgeniusonline.com . An alternate Europe (and England) in a universe where
> devisors, called "sparks", build gadgets and organisms that toy with the laws
> of physics and are susceptible to Science-Related Memetic Disorder as well
> ( < http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceRelatedMemeticDisorder > )
> {DO NOT CLICK THE ABOVE LINK IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE YOU NEED TO DO TODAY}.

I'm a longtime fan, but I think "pandemic of mad 
scientists" does not count as "playing Alternate 
History reasonably straight".  (If you don't live in 
or near Europe then you may have not noticed that.)
Any real-life people and places are involved mainly 
as comedy devices; this Europe is composed of small
city-states governed by squabbling geniuses,
moderated in the recent-ish past by the peacemaking 
"Heterodyne Boys", the indiscriminately destructive 
mysterious "Other", and the peacemaking-but-oppressive
Baron Wulfenbach.  Settings include Paris, Mechanicsburg, 
and Beetleburg (not as bad as it sounds), and the 
Master of Paris lives, or at least works, where he 
can see everything that happens in his domain, from
the summit of his Awful Tower.

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#441385

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 7:38:16 AM UTC-4, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Tuesday, 7 June 2016 03:29:36 UTC+1, David DeLaney  wrote:
> > On 2016-06-06, Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of Turtledove's stuff and the
> > > SM Stirling alternate history stuff, along with Stross's Merchant Princes
> > > novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for are authors on the way up
> > > with stuff that plays the AH reasonably straight--not the Roman empire
> > > survives because they tamed dragons and Emperor Marilyn Monroe is now
> > > invading President Jeb Bush's US or Nazi sorcerers.
> > 
> > The very first to spring to mind is actually a webcomic, found at
> > girlgeniusonline.com . An alternate Europe (and England) in a universe where
> > devisors, called "sparks", build gadgets and organisms that toy with the laws
> > of physics and are susceptible to Science-Related Memetic Disorder as well
> > ( < http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceRelatedMemeticDisorder > )
> > {DO NOT CLICK THE ABOVE LINK IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE YOU NEED TO DO TODAY}.
> 
> I'm a longtime fan, but I think "pandemic of mad 
> scientists" does not count as "playing Alternate 
> History reasonably straight".  (If you don't live in 
> or near Europe then you may have not noticed that.)
> Any real-life people and places are involved mainly 
> as comedy devices; this Europe is composed of small
> city-states governed by squabbling geniuses,
> moderated in the recent-ish past by the peacemaking 
> "Heterodyne Boys", the indiscriminately destructive 
> mysterious "Other", and the peacemaking-but-oppressive
> Baron Wulfenbach.  Settings include Paris, Mechanicsburg, 
> and Beetleburg (not as bad as it sounds), and the 
> Master of Paris lives, or at least works, where he 
> can see everything that happens in his domain, from
> the summit of his Awful Tower.

If you haven't already, post the same question in the 
USENET group soc.history.what-if

Kevin R

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#441389

On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 21:29:35 -0500, David DeLaney
<daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote
in<news:P4adnTLW9v0SrMvKnZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@earthlink.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 2016-06-06, Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of
>> Turtledove's stuff and the SM Stirling alternate
>> history stuff, along with Stross's Merchant Princes
>> novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for are
>> authors on the way up with stuff that plays the AH
>> reasonably straight--not the Roman empire survives
>> because they tamed dragons and Emperor Marilyn Monroe
>> is now invading President Jeb Bush's US or Nazi
>> sorcerers.

> The very first to spring to mind is actually a webcomic,
> found at girlgeniusonline.com . An alternate Europe (and
> England) in a universe where devisors, called "sparks",
> build gadgets and organisms that toy with the laws of
> physics and are susceptible to Science-Related Memetic
> Disorder as well ( < http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceRelatedMemeticDisorder
> > )

I don’t think that this counts as playing the AH reasonably
straight.  

> {DO NOT CLICK THE ABOVE LINK IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE YOU NEED TO DO TODAY}.

Brian
-- 
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties.  The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#441675

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 2:23:25 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 21:29:35 -0500, David DeLaney
> <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote
> in<news:P4adnTLW9v0SrMvKnZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@earthlink.com> in
> rec.arts.sf.written:
> 
> > On 2016-06-06, Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >> I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of
> >> Turtledove's stuff and the SM Stirling alternate
> >> history stuff, along with Stross's Merchant Princes
> >> novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for are
> >> authors on the way up with stuff that plays the AH
> >> reasonably straight--not the Roman empire survives
> >> because they tamed dragons and Emperor Marilyn Monroe
> >> is now invading President Jeb Bush's US or Nazi
> >> sorcerers.
> 
> > The very first to spring to mind is actually a webcomic,
> > found at girlgeniusonline.com . An alternate Europe (and
> > England) in a universe where devisors, called "sparks",
> > build gadgets and organisms that toy with the laws of
> > physics and are susceptible to Science-Related Memetic
> > Disorder as well ( < http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceRelatedMemeticDisorder
> > > )
> 
> I don’t think that this counts as playing the AH reasonably
> straight.  

Then again, neither does most of the stuff the OP listed.  This fight is long-lost, but "alternate history" to me means some discrete (though not necessarily identified) historical event goes differently, with the author exploring how this plays out.  Turtledove's Agent of Byzantium stories are a good example, where Mohamed had centuries earlier converted to Christianity, and went on to be a beloved saint.  Any story that begins with a modern community being transported back in time by magic (however this magic is hand-waved) is something other than alternate history.  

Richard R. Hershberger

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#441680

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 9:38:17 AM UTC-4, Richard Hershberger wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 2:23:25 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> > On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 21:29:35 -0500, David DeLaney
> > <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote
> > in<news:P4adnTLW9v0SrMvKnZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@earthlink.com> in
> > rec.arts.sf.written:
> > 
> > > On 2016-06-06, Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > >> I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of
> > >> Turtledove's stuff and the SM Stirling alternate
> > >> history stuff, along with Stross's Merchant Princes
> > >> novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for are
> > >> authors on the way up with stuff that plays the AH
> > >> reasonably straight--not the Roman empire survives
> > >> because they tamed dragons and Emperor Marilyn Monroe
> > >> is now invading President Jeb Bush's US or Nazi
> > >> sorcerers.
> > 
> > > The very first to spring to mind is actually a webcomic,
> > > found at girlgeniusonline.com . An alternate Europe (and
> > > England) in a universe where devisors, called "sparks",
> > > build gadgets and organisms that toy with the laws of
> > > physics and are susceptible to Science-Related Memetic
> > > Disorder as well ( < http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceRelatedMemeticDisorder
> > > > )
> > 
> > I don’t think that this counts as playing the AH reasonably
> > straight.  
> 
> Then again, neither does most of the stuff the OP listed.  This fight is long-lost, but "alternate history" to me means some discrete (though not necessarily identified) historical event goes differently, with the author exploring how this plays out.  Turtledove's Agent of Byzantium stories are a good example, where Mohamed had centuries earlier converted to Christianity, and went on to be a beloved saint.  Any story that begins with a modern community being transported back in time by magic (however this magic is hand-waved) is something other than alternate history.  
> 
>

I think of the two types as "pure alternate history," and the other as
fantasy or as alternate history influenced scientifiction. If you add no
fantasy nor sf trappings to the tale, it is pure AH, but that can get
out of control.  Consider how Steve Stirling has faster technological
development as a downstream knock-on effect from the more complete
US victory in the War of Independence, requiring United Empire Loyalists
to decamp to British South Africa, lost to the Dutch in a different
peace settlement.  By "The Stone Dogs" the tech level is quite a bit
ahead of late 20th century Earth-Prime.  

Twain's "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" has fantasy trappings,
just as Mattheson's "Bid Time Return" does.  The same thing for Finney's
"Time and Again."   Stories with scientifictional trappings can be said
to be equally fantastic, but in an SFish way: Leo Frankowki's Conrad 
Stargard winds up in medieval Poland by time machine; Stirling's ISOT is
at first a mysterious event, later revealed as alien space bat monkey
business; the same applies for Eric Flint's versions: the Assiti Shards
are to blame.  It's all Clarke's 3rd Law territory, but you could say the
same for Wells' "Time Machine," and any number of classic SF tropes:
FTL travel especially.  "Man (or Woman or Town) Out of Time" stories
are their own sub-genre by now, no matter the similarity to pure AH.

Now, Turtledove's Worldwar/Colonization series uses an alien invasion
as a point of departure, making it at once a highly implausible
AH series and science fiction.  It doesn't even use FTL: the Lizards 
take 20 years in cold sleep to voyage from Tau Ceti to Sol system.

I enjoy all flavors of these treats, though a well-thought out AH
that doesn't cheat with fantasy or SF elements is often delightful.

Kevin R

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#441712

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 10:23:13 AM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
> On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 9:38:17 AM UTC-4, Richard Hershberger wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 2:23:25 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> > > On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 21:29:35 -0500, David DeLaney
> > > <> wrote
> > > in<> in
> > > rec.arts.sf.written:
> > > 
> > > > On 2016-06-06, Dale Cozort  wrote:
> > > 
> > > >> I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of
> > > >> Turtledove's stuff and the SM Stirling alternate
> > > >> history stuff, along with Stross's Merchant Princes
> > > >> novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for are
> > > >> authors on the way up with stuff that plays the AH
> > > >> reasonably straight--not the Roman empire survives
> > > >> because they tamed dragons and Emperor Marilyn Monroe
> > > >> is now invading President Jeb Bush's US or Nazi
> > > >> sorcerers.
> > > 
> > > > The very first to spring to mind is actually a webcomic,
> > > > found at girlgeniusonline.com . An alternate Europe (and
> > > > England) in a universe where devisors, called "sparks",
> > > > build gadgets and organisms that toy with the laws of
> > > > physics and are susceptible to Science-Related Memetic
> > > > Disorder as well ( < http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceRelatedMemeticDisorder
> > > > > )
> > > 
> > > I don’t think that this counts as playing the AH reasonably
> > > straight.  
> > 
> > Then again, neither does most of the stuff the OP listed.  This fight is long-lost, but "alternate history" to me means some discrete (though not necessarily identified) historical event goes differently, with the author exploring how this plays out.  Turtledove's Agent of Byzantium stories are a good example, where Mohamed had centuries earlier converted to Christianity, and went on to be a beloved saint.  Any story that begins with a modern community being transported back in time by magic (however this magic is hand-waved) is something other than alternate history.  
> > 
> >
> 
> I think of the two types as "pure alternate history," and the other as
> fantasy or as alternate history influenced scientifiction. If you add no
> fantasy nor sf trappings to the tale, it is pure AH, but that can get
> out of control.  Consider how Steve Stirling has faster technological
> development as a downstream knock-on effect from the more complete
> US victory in the War of Independence, requiring United Empire Loyalists
> to decamp to British South Africa, lost to the Dutch in a different
> peace settlement.  By "The Stone Dogs" the tech level is quite a bit
> ahead of late 20th century Earth-Prime.  
> 
> Twain's "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" has fantasy trappings,
> just as Mattheson's "Bid Time Return" does.  The same thing for Finney's
> "Time and Again."   Stories with scientifictional trappings can be said
> to be equally fantastic, but in an SFish way: Leo Frankowki's Conrad 
> Stargard winds up in medieval Poland by time machine; Stirling's ISOT is
> at first a mysterious event, later revealed as alien space bat monkey
> business; the same applies for Eric Flint's versions: the Assiti Shards
> are to blame.  It's all Clarke's 3rd Law territory, but you could say the
> same for Wells' "Time Machine," and any number of classic SF tropes:
> FTL travel especially.  "Man (or Woman or Town) Out of Time" stories
> are their own sub-genre by now, no matter the similarity to pure AH.
> 
> Now, Turtledove's Worldwar/Colonization series uses an alien invasion
> as a point of departure, making it at once a highly implausible
> AH series and science fiction.  It doesn't even use FTL: the Lizards 
> take 20 years in cold sleep to voyage from Tau Ceti to Sol system.
> 
> I enjoy all flavors of these treats, though a well-thought out AH
> that doesn't cheat with fantasy or SF elements is often delightful.
> 
> Kevin R

Most of the Point of Divergence people don't obsess too much about how purely AH something is, but we do often obsess on logical consistency. You want Alien Space Lizards landing during World War II? Fine, as long as progression after that is logical and you write a good story. You want magic and dragons in the Napoleonic wars? That's a problem unless you can convince me that Napoleon or even France would exist in a world with magic and dragons, which you probably can't. Maybe if the dragons and magic were recent arrivals or the magic was recently discovered it would work.

 C.J. Carella does a series of novels where real world superpowers start showing up in an alternate timeline about the time comic book heroes appear in our reality. I don't agree with everything he does in his timeline, but he does make a major effort to work through the implications and make a logically consistent world. Nice touch: His near-equivalent of Superman routinely delivers satellites and space probes to orbit. His world generally makes sense given the premise. Is it AH? Certainly not pure AH, but it comes surprisingly close given where it starts.

I can't be too much of a purist because I workshop my Snapshot novels in POD, and they are sort of like a cross between Farmer's Riverworld and World of the Tiers series--uber-powerful aliens have been making exact copies of Earth continents since dinosaur times and stashing them in pocket universes, where they keep evolving and having history and stuff. Obviously ASB, but once you buy the premise, I play it as straight and logical as I can.

One of the best pure AH novels I've read in a while is Turtledove's Ruled Britannia, where the Spanish Armada succeeded and the Brits are plotting a revolt. Only problem: It went on about 40 pages after the climax, when he should have wrapped it up in five pages.   

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#441684

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016 06:38:15 -0700 (PDT), Richard
Hershberger <rrhersh@gmail.com> wrote
in<news:c18d1ca3-366a-40a0-9057-8160f634fcd2@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 2:23:25 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:

>> On Mon, 06 Jun 2016 21:29:35 -0500, David DeLaney
>> <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> wrote
>> in<news:P4adnTLW9v0SrMvKnZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@earthlink.com> in
>> rec.arts.sf.written:

>>> On 2016-06-06, Dale Cozort <dalecoz2@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>> I'm a big alternate history fan. I've read most of
>>>> Turtledove's stuff and the SM Stirling alternate
>>>> history stuff, along with Stross's Merchant Princes
>>>> novels and Eric Flint's 163X. What I'm looking for are
>>>> authors on the way up with stuff that plays the AH
>>>> reasonably straight--not the Roman empire survives
>>>> because they tamed dragons and Emperor Marilyn Monroe
>>>> is now invading President Jeb Bush's US or Nazi
>>>> sorcerers.

>>> The very first to spring to mind is actually a webcomic,
>>> found at girlgeniusonline.com . An alternate Europe (and
>>> England) in a universe where devisors, called "sparks",
>>> build gadgets and organisms that toy with the laws of
>>> physics and are susceptible to Science-Related Memetic
>>> Disorder as well ( < http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceRelatedMemeticDisorder
>>> > )

>> I don’t think that this counts as playing the AH reasonably
>> straight.  

> Then again, neither does most of the stuff the OP listed.
>  This fight is long-lost, but "alternate history" to me
> means some discrete (though not necessarily identified)
> historical event goes differently, with the author
> exploring how this plays out.  Turtledove's Agent of
> Byzantium stories are a good example, where Mohamed had
> centuries earlier converted to Christianity, and went on
> to be a beloved saint.  Any story that begins with a
> modern community being transported back in time by magic
> (however this magic is hand-waved) is something other
> than alternate history.  

I’m willing to call the 1632 series alternate history: the
authors are exploring how a discrete event -- admittedly
ahistorical -- plays out.  The event is fantastic, but its
consequences are being treated straightforwardly (for as
far as I followed the series, anyway).  I would, however,
qualify ‘alternate history’ by noting that it is also
altered history.

Brian
-- 
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties.  The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

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