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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #440949 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-05-31 17:14 -0500 |
| Last post | 2016-06-01 12:38 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 129 — 24 participants |
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_The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-31 17:14 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2016-05-31 16:41 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-05-31 19:25 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> - 2016-05-31 20:05 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2016-06-01 18:32 +1200
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 11:52 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 06:54 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 11:47 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-01 02:16 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-06-01 04:36 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 08:31 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-06-01 09:14 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 07:01 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 11:50 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 10:12 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:23 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 15:04 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 15:17 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 16:01 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-02 02:20 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-02 02:16 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 15:13 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-02 02:26 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 13:11 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-02 21:33 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2016-06-01 09:49 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 07:28 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-06-01 14:48 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-01 09:21 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 12:02 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 10:18 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 12:32 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-01 11:37 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 12:47 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 15:21 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-01 14:33 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 13:45 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-02 13:13 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-02 11:34 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 13:14 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-02 22:44 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-02 16:42 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 19:11 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-02 19:54 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-03 07:03 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-03 12:59 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton leif.roar@dimnakorr.com - 2016-06-06 01:06 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-06-06 21:54 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-06-06 20:43 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-03 12:57 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 11:02 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-03 13:16 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 11:49 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-03 15:45 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 14:49 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2016-06-04 00:41 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-04 09:00 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-03 18:41 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-04 01:23 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-03 01:14 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 19:01 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-03 03:40 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 20:51 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-03 02:42 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 06:47 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-06-03 10:50 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 08:39 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-06-03 12:21 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 10:58 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-06-04 00:31 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-06-06 21:58 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-06 20:04 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-06-07 07:28 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 08:57 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-06-07 10:39 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 18:07 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> - 2016-06-05 15:58 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-05 19:32 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-03 09:26 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-06-03 12:45 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 10:02 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-06-03 13:08 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 11:01 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-06-03 13:08 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-03 18:09 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-06-03 23:51 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-04 04:13 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-04 08:18 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 10:59 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-03 19:33 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-03 13:05 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 11:46 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-03 13:33 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-03 16:10 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-04 13:19 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-05 19:44 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 17:10 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 13:50 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-01 15:31 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 14:49 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-02 02:32 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-02 11:36 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-02 10:44 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-02 11:53 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-06-02 10:36 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 09:53 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-02 12:43 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:14 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 16:48 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 20:18 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 22:13 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 21:38 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 22:25 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 22:47 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 22:57 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-02 11:42 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 14:50 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 13:48 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 16:07 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 15:53 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 19:12 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 20:01 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-02 13:20 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 08:10 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 14:47 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-06-02 06:44 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley) - 2016-06-02 14:02 +0100
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-02 13:23 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 12:38 -0700
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| From | Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 10:02 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <7d141c38-3fe0-4133-b135-96a59830d421@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #441180 |
On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 12:45:16 PM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote: > Probably, but they aren't usually the center of the movie. I can't > think of a movie titled "Car Accident" but there's multiple movies > called "Shark Attack" or a variant thereof. "Crash" 1996 - based on a work by JG Ballard (ObSF) "Smashup on Interstate 5" - 1976 ...and a lot of 'car chase' or racing movies. pt
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| From | Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 13:08 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <niso3s$ljj$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441181 |
On 6/3/2016 10:02 AM, Peter Trei wrote: > On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 12:45:16 PM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote: > >> Probably, but they aren't usually the center of the movie. I can't >> think of a movie titled "Car Accident" but there's multiple movies >> called "Shark Attack" or a variant thereof. > > "Crash" 1996 - based on a work by JG Ballard (ObSF) > > "Smashup on Interstate 5" - 1976 > > ...and a lot of 'car chase' or racing movies. > The four Mad Max movies. -- Privacy IS Security
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 11:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA61C70319F586taustingmail@69.16.179.42> |
| In reply to | #441180 |
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in
news:nisc6n$aev$1@dont-email.me:
> On 6/3/16 12:26 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> On Friday, 3 June 2016 15:50:29 UTC+1, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
>> wrote:
>>> On 6/3/16 5:42 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>>> On Friday, 3 June 2016 03:01:42 UTC+1, Gutless Umbrella
>>>> Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>>>> Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> wrote in
>>>>> news:20160602b@crcomp.net:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Explosive thoughts fill my mind anywhere within a ten mile
>>>>>> radius of a plant.
>>>>>
>>>>> That apparently says more about your mind that the explosive
>>>>> potential of refineries.
>>>>>
>>>>> Refineries catch fire. Not often, but regularly.
>>>>>
>>>>> And they don't explode. Decades of engineering has gone into
>>>>> making it as unlikely as possible for them to explode, and
>>>>> engineers are pretty good at that sort of thing.
>>>>
>>>> Sure. Just look at how safe nuclear plants are.
>>>> They're famous for it. A bunch of movies are made
>>>> about it.
>>>
>>> They are incredibly safe, actually. How many people have
>>> died due to
>>> nuclear power plant accidents? Now how many have died due to
>>> accidents at coal plants (still their major competitor)? How
>>> many died in building hydropower dams? How many could die if
>>> the dam failed?
>>>
>>>
>>> Nuclear power has an absolutely stellar record of safety.
>>> Perfect? No,
>>> nothing in the universe is perfect. But better than any of its
>>> reasonable competitors, yes.
>>
>> Perhaps I am unfair, but I detected complacency
>> about engineers /and private industry/ (or public)
>> being able to build things that don't ggggggggo worng,
>> in both unprecedented and precedented ways.
>
> No one can build things that don't go wrong. The question
> is whether
> they go wrong often enough for you to worry about. Nukes
> generally don't, partly because people are so paranoid about
> them that they're held to standards NO OTHER INDUSTRY is, or
> ever has been.
>
>
>>> People also make movies about shark attacks. How many
>>> shark attacks are
>>> there in a year? How many opportunities do sharks HAVE to
>>> attack people per year? So you're vastly more at risk driving
>>> to work than you are going swimming, yet they make a lot more
>>> movies about killer sharks than about people crashing their
>>> cars on the way to work.
>>
>> If we all swam to work then there'd probably be many
>> more shark attacks. ObSF _Waterworld_.
>
> But still not enough to worry about, because sharks
> actually don't like
> eating us. Worldwide death toll last year from sharks: about 25.
> Worldwide death toll from lightning strikes: somewhere between
> 6,000 and 24,000, depending on what sources you ask. Traffic
> fatalities last year, worldwide: about 1.25 million.
>
> Yet we generally aren't trembling with fear when we get in
> our cars,
> buses, or whatever, despite the fact that it is hundreds of
> times more likely we'll die that way than by lightning, and
> fifty thousand times more likely we'll die that way then by
> shark attack.
Got any comparative figures that look at traffic deaths _per mile
driven_, or shark attacks _hour spent in the water_, or lightning
deaths _per round of golf_?
>
>
>>
>> And for that matter, I suspect that in movies overall
>> there are more car accidents than there are shark attacks.
>>
>
>
> Probably, but they aren't usually the center of the movie.
> I can't
> think of a movie titled "Car Accident" but there's multiple
> movies called "Shark Attack" or a variant thereof.
>
There've been a few, usually with demon possessed cars.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 13:08 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <niso31$ljj$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441180 |
On 6/3/2016 9:45 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote: > On 6/3/16 12:26 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote: >> On Friday, 3 June 2016 15:50:29 UTC+1, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote: >>> On 6/3/16 5:42 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote: >>>> On Friday, 3 June 2016 03:01:42 UTC+1, Gutless Umbrella Carrying >>>> Sissy wrote: >>>>> Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> wrote in news:20160602b@crcomp.net: >>>>> >>>>>> Explosive thoughts fill my mind anywhere within a ten mile >>>>>> radius of a plant. >>>>> >>>>> That apparently says more about your mind that the explosive >>>>> potential of refineries. >>>>> >>>>> Refineries catch fire. Not often, but regularly. >>>>> >>>>> And they don't explode. Decades of engineering has gone into making >>>>> it as unlikely as possible for them to explode, and engineers are >>>>> pretty good at that sort of thing. >>>> >>>> Sure. Just look at how safe nuclear plants are. >>>> They're famous for it. A bunch of movies are made >>>> about it. >>> >>> They are incredibly safe, actually. How many people have died due to >>> nuclear power plant accidents? Now how many have died due to accidents >>> at coal plants (still their major competitor)? How many died in building >>> hydropower dams? How many could die if the dam failed? >>> >>> >>> Nuclear power has an absolutely stellar record of safety. >>> Perfect? No, >>> nothing in the universe is perfect. But better than any of its >>> reasonable competitors, yes. >> >> Perhaps I am unfair, but I detected complacency >> about engineers /and private industry/ (or public) >> being able to build things that don't ggggggggo worng, >> in both unprecedented and precedented ways. > > No one can build things that don't go wrong. The question is whether > they go wrong often enough for you to worry about. Nukes generally > don't, partly because people are so paranoid about them that they're > held to standards NO OTHER INDUSTRY is, or ever has been. > > >>> People also make movies about shark attacks. How many shark >>> attacks are >>> there in a year? How many opportunities do sharks HAVE to attack people >>> per year? So you're vastly more at risk driving to work than you are >>> going swimming, yet they make a lot more movies about killer sharks than >>> about people crashing their cars on the way to work. >> >> If we all swam to work then there'd probably be many >> more shark attacks. ObSF _Waterworld_. > > But still not enough to worry about, because sharks actually don't > like eating us. Worldwide death toll last year from sharks: about 25. > Worldwide death toll from lightning strikes: somewhere between 6,000 and > 24,000, depending on what sources you ask. Traffic fatalities last year, > worldwide: about 1.25 million. > > Yet we generally aren't trembling with fear when we get in our cars, > buses, or whatever, despite the fact that it is hundreds of times more > likely we'll die that way than by lightning, and fifty thousand times > more likely we'll die that way then by shark attack. > > >> >> And for that matter, I suspect that in movies overall >> there are more car accidents than there are shark attacks. >> > > > Probably, but they aren't usually the center of the movie. I can't > think of a movie titled "Car Accident" but there's multiple movies > called "Shark Attack" or a variant thereof. > > "Sharknado 4" is coming! (Now doesn't that strike horror in your heart?) -- Privacy IS Security
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| From | Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 18:09 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <daa44b0b-7896-4d23-b9a2-8c37a46a822d@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #441180 |
On Friday, 3 June 2016 17:45:16 UTC+1, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote: > On 6/3/16 12:26 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote: > > If we all swam to work then there'd probably be many > > more shark attacks. ObSF _Waterworld_. > > But still not enough to worry about, because sharks actually don't like > eating us. Worldwide death toll last year from sharks: about 25. > Worldwide death toll from lightning strikes: somewhere between 6,000 and > 24,000, depending on what sources you ask. Traffic fatalities last year, > worldwide: about 1.25 million. > > Yet we generally aren't trembling with fear when we get in our cars, > buses, or whatever, despite the fact that it is hundreds of times more > likely we'll die that way than by lightning, and fifty thousand times > more likely we'll die that way then by shark attack. Okay. <http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/shark-attack.htm> : "It is very rare for a shark to make repeated attacks and actually feed on a human victim. The shark is simply mistaking a human for something it usually eats. Once the shark gets a taste, it realizes that this isn't its usual food, and it lets go." I think we do fear vehicle accidents, though. A truck tipped over today and the traffic holdup was, well, if I believed that "horrendous" is a word then I'd have used it in this sentence. Even on the roads /nearby/.
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| From | "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 23:51 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <nitj8l$42e$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441215 |
On 6/3/16 9:09 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Friday, 3 June 2016 17:45:16 UTC+1, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 6/3/16 12:26 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>> If we all swam to work then there'd probably be many
>>> more shark attacks. ObSF _Waterworld_.
>>
>> But still not enough to worry about, because sharks actually don't like
>> eating us. Worldwide death toll last year from sharks: about 25.
>> Worldwide death toll from lightning strikes: somewhere between 6,000 and
>> 24,000, depending on what sources you ask. Traffic fatalities last year,
>> worldwide: about 1.25 million.
>>
>> Yet we generally aren't trembling with fear when we get in our cars,
>> buses, or whatever, despite the fact that it is hundreds of times more
>> likely we'll die that way than by lightning, and fifty thousand times
>> more likely we'll die that way then by shark attack.
>
> Okay. <http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/shark-attack.htm> :
> "It is very rare for a shark to make repeated attacks and
> actually feed on a human victim. The shark is simply mistaking
> a human for something it usually eats. Once the shark gets a
> taste, it realizes that this isn't its usual food, and it lets go."
>
> I think we do fear vehicle accidents, though.
Maybe you do. I don't. That is, I don't get into my car and have a
thrill of terror that I may die. I just drive without worry at all,
unless I see a specifically dangerous situation.
The point being that THAT is a far, far, far more likely way to be
injured or killed. But we don't tend to worry about it much.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| From | Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-04 04:13 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <f8b81cc9-b654-4f73-b0f9-69e75e6d2b69@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #441217 |
On Saturday, 4 June 2016 04:51:52 UTC+1, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote: > On 6/3/16 9:09 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote: > > On Friday, 3 June 2016 17:45:16 UTC+1, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote: > >> On 6/3/16 12:26 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote: > >>> If we all swam to work then there'd probably be many > >>> more shark attacks. ObSF _Waterworld_. > >> > >> But still not enough to worry about, because sharks actually don't like > >> eating us. Worldwide death toll last year from sharks: about 25. > >> Worldwide death toll from lightning strikes: somewhere between 6,000 and > >> 24,000, depending on what sources you ask. Traffic fatalities last year, > >> worldwide: about 1.25 million. > >> > >> Yet we generally aren't trembling with fear when we get in our cars, > >> buses, or whatever, despite the fact that it is hundreds of times more > >> likely we'll die that way than by lightning, and fifty thousand times > >> more likely we'll die that way then by shark attack. > > > > Okay. <http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/shark-attack.htm> : > > "It is very rare for a shark to make repeated attacks and > > actually feed on a human victim. The shark is simply mistaking > > a human for something it usually eats. Once the shark gets a > > taste, it realizes that this isn't its usual food, and it lets go." > > > > I think we do fear vehicle accidents, though. > > Maybe you do. I don't. That is, I don't get into my car and have a > thrill of terror that I may die. I just drive without worry at all, > unless I see a specifically dangerous situation. > > The point being that THAT is a far, far, far more likely way to be > injured or killed. But we don't tend to worry about it much. Hmm... I'll suggest that you could drive closer than you do to the car in front, and probably survive. But you don't do that. Because you're afraid of what /could/ happen. But you are used to being afraid.
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| From | David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-04 08:18 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <niunun$mp3$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441227 |
On 6/4/2016 5:13 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote: > On Saturday, 4 June 2016 04:51:52 UTC+1, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote: >> On 6/3/16 9:09 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote: >>> On Friday, 3 June 2016 17:45:16 UTC+1, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote: >>>> On 6/3/16 12:26 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote: >>>>> If we all swam to work then there'd probably be many >>>>> more shark attacks. ObSF _Waterworld_. >>>> >>>> But still not enough to worry about, because sharks actually don't like >>>> eating us. Worldwide death toll last year from sharks: about 25. >>>> Worldwide death toll from lightning strikes: somewhere between 6,000 and >>>> 24,000, depending on what sources you ask. Traffic fatalities last year, >>>> worldwide: about 1.25 million. >>>> >>>> Yet we generally aren't trembling with fear when we get in our cars, >>>> buses, or whatever, despite the fact that it is hundreds of times more >>>> likely we'll die that way than by lightning, and fifty thousand times >>>> more likely we'll die that way then by shark attack. >>> >>> Okay. <http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/shark-attack.htm> : >>> "It is very rare for a shark to make repeated attacks and >>> actually feed on a human victim. The shark is simply mistaking >>> a human for something it usually eats. Once the shark gets a >>> taste, it realizes that this isn't its usual food, and it lets go." >>> >>> I think we do fear vehicle accidents, though. >> >> Maybe you do. I don't. That is, I don't get into my car and have a >> thrill of terror that I may die. I just drive without worry at all, >> unless I see a specifically dangerous situation. >> >> The point being that THAT is a far, far, far more likely way to be >> injured or killed. But we don't tend to worry about it much. > > Hmm... I'll suggest that you could drive closer than > you do to the car in front, and probably survive. > But you don't do that. Because you're afraid of what > /could/ happen. But you are used to being afraid. > Wanting to avoid an accident isn't the same thing as being afraid of the prospect of dying in one. I wouldn't exactly say my concern about repair bills and insurance rates qualifies as "fear".
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 10:59 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA61C6FD1E6D52taustingmail@69.16.179.42> |
| In reply to | #441179 |
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote in
news:79d69b96-80f0-4cb4-acb9-32a1e79c0161@googlegroups.com:
> If we all swam to work then there'd probably be many
> more shark attacks. ObSF _Waterworld_.
Or a *lot* fewer sharks.
>
> And for that matter, I suspect that in movies overall
> there are more car accidents than there are shark attacks.
>
Mostly, that aren't accidents. They're quite deliberate.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 19:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20160603a@crcomp.net> |
| In reply to | #441167 |
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
> On Friday, 3 June 2016 03:01:42 UTC+1, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> wrote in news:20160602b@crcomp.net:
>>
>> > Explosive thoughts fill my mind anywhere within a ten mile
>> > radius of a plant.
>>
>> That apparently says more about your mind that the explosive
>> potential of refineries.
>>
>> Refineries catch fire. Not often, but regularly.
>>
>> And they don't explode. Decades of engineering has gone into making
>> it as unlikely as possible for them to explode, and engineers are
>> pretty good at that sort of thing.
>
> Sure. Just look at how safe nuclear plants are.
> They're famous for it. A bunch of movies are made
> about it.
>
> And, then again, safety engineering costs money,
> and if there hasn't been a national disaster lately,
> saving money becomes a greater priority.
You just hit bullet point four on a HAZOP website. [1]
HAZOP Cons
A HAZOP focuses on single events rather than combinations
of possible events.
The HAZOP focus on guide-words allows it to overlook some
hazards not related to a guide-word.
Training is essential for optimum results, especially for
the facilitator.
HAZOPs are typically very time consuming and thus expensive.
Let's take a picture tour of the plant mentioned by me up thread. The
picture quality is poor.
It looks like a lot of HAZOP went into the scene shown in the first
picture. [2] The tank farm seems far enough away nestled into berms.
There's a big black tank laying on the ground all by itself. Maybe it
doesn't play well with all of the other tanks?
In the foreground there's a tank standing in a big old tub (to catch the
condensation of God only knows what?) There's a rusty pipe in the
middle. You can just barely see the left edge of a sign. That sign says
Danger.
The next picture [3] shows lots of interesting features. The pipes in
the group quiver from the pressure. There's even more rust all over the
place.
In the background, the long pipe sticking straight up between the
building and the distant hill is a flare. It's hard to see but there's a
triad at the top with flames coming out of it. It reminds me of a
devil's pitchfork.
That's where HAZOP routes the devil in the details when something gets
upset. The flare is not rusty, it's burnt. Fireballs mostly go up, but
the burned segment gives you an idea of how far down the bottom of a
large fireball can reach. It gives you an idea of how big a fireball
gets around pipes that quiver from pressure.
My anonymous source (shown here with one of his inventions [4]) says
that in some ways a plant resembles an aerosol spray that a daredevil
set on fire. There's no off switch. The daredevil must keep pressing
down on the actuator. Because the flame follows the spray right back to
the spray can in the daredevil's own hand when the actuator is released.
The next picture [5] shows the controller that had a communication
problem. That's why they sent me in. To diagnose the communication
problem.
The last picture [6] shows the panel with the alarm. The phone is on the
desk. HAZOP consensus works a whole lot better for me if there's an
operator sitting in the empty chair when the alarm sounds and the remote
control link is down.
Note.
1. http://gcisolutions.com/gcitn0309.html
2. http://crcomp.net/plant/2.jpg
3. http://crcomp.net/plant/3.jpg
4. http://crcomp.net/plant/4.jpg
5. http://crcomp.net/plant/5.jpg
6. http://crcomp.net/plant/6.jpg
--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
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| From | Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 13:05 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <nisgtd$rv2$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441150 |
On 6/2/2016 8:14 PM, Don Kuenz wrote: > Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote: >> In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> >> wrote: >> >>> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the pyrotechnics in >>> _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up petroleum infrastructure all of >>> the time. >> >> <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or otherwise, they >> simply aren't relevant> >> >> Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at a tank farm is >> likely to produce an explosion? (I think we've pretty much reached the >> consensus that it PROBABLY won't unless unusual conditions exist.) > > Consensus? You guys sat down in front of your PCs and reached a > consensus? That's absolutely beautiful. > > Did you ever visit a plant and feel those big old two foot diameter > steel pipes quiver from the pressure? Then you see the flareup and hear > the alarm. > > At first you tell yourself, "It's probably not an alarm. It's just my > overactive imagination." > > The phone rings. You pick it up and the voice on the other end asks, > "What set off the alarm?" > > You tell the voice on the other end that you're electronics technician > dispatched to fix the communications end of a remote controller. There's > nobody else around and you don't know the first thing about plants. How > does the voice expect you to know what just set off the alarm? You plead > with the voice on the other end to fix whatever just broke. > > The voice says that it's probably nothing so don't worry. Then the voice > hangs up. But the alarm keeps sounding in your ears... > > Explosive thoughts fill my mind anywhere within a ten mile radius of a > plant. May your consensus protect you. > > -- > Don Kuenz KB7RPU I drove into my power plant on fire back in 1983 when I was a junior engineer. That was ... impressive. We melted a 24 MVA utilities transformer to the ground (a 15 ft by 15 ft by 20 ft high transformer). And melted the accompanying copper bus bars and switchgear. We had a direct phase to phase short on a 26,000 volt three phase generator running at 300 MW and capable of 580 MW. That was a bad day BUT no one got hurt. Lynn
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 11:46 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA61C77D1620D7taustingmail@69.16.179.43> |
| In reply to | #441196 |
Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote in
news:nisgtd$rv2$1@dont-email.me:
> On 6/2/2016 8:14 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:
>> Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz
>>> <garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the
>>>> pyrotechnics in _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up
>>>> petroleum infrastructure all of the time.
>>>
>>> <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or otherwise,
>>> they simply aren't relevant>
>>>
>>> Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at a
>>> tank farm is likely to produce an explosion? (I think we've
>>> pretty much reached the consensus that it PROBABLY won't
>>> unless unusual conditions exist.)
>>
>> Consensus? You guys sat down in front of your PCs and reached a
>> consensus? That's absolutely beautiful.
>>
>> Did you ever visit a plant and feel those big old two foot
>> diameter steel pipes quiver from the pressure? Then you see the
>> flareup and hear the alarm.
>>
>> At first you tell yourself, "It's probably not an alarm. It's
>> just my overactive imagination."
>>
>> The phone rings. You pick it up and the voice on the other end
>> asks, "What set off the alarm?"
>>
>> You tell the voice on the other end that you're electronics
>> technician dispatched to fix the communications end of a remote
>> controller. There's nobody else around and you don't know the
>> first thing about plants. How does the voice expect you to know
>> what just set off the alarm? You plead with the voice on the
>> other end to fix whatever just broke.
>>
>> The voice says that it's probably nothing so don't worry. Then
>> the voice hangs up. But the alarm keeps sounding in your
>> ears...
>>
>> Explosive thoughts fill my mind anywhere within a ten mile
>> radius of a plant. May your consensus protect you.
>>
>> --
>> Don Kuenz KB7RPU
>
> I drove into my power plant on fire back in 1983 when I was a
> junior engineer. That was ... impressive. We melted a 24 MVA
> utilities transformer to the ground (a 15 ft by 15 ft by 20 ft
> high transformer). And melted the accompanying copper bus bars
> and switchgear. We had a direct phase to phase short on a
> 26,000 volt three phase generator running at 300 MW and capable
> of 580 MW. That was a bad day BUT no one got hurt.
>
I was impressed by everything working correctly on a tour of a
substation for the city of Anaheim. It included a test of the
cicruit breaker for the 500KV DC line that comes from Nevada (done
twice a year, one of the scheduled during the tour because the guy
who organizes the tour has been an insider in city government his
whole life, and he Knows People).
It started off with Bud, the guy actually doing the tour, who
obviously loved it, and his Shit Eatin' Grin. He noties the ISO
people (because they can tell if the breaker trips), then calls his
office to turn the breaker off. It sounded like a cannon going off.
Everybody jumps, because there was no warning. SEG even more. Then
he opens the manual disconnect - a large piece of copper in an L
shape, maybe 15 feet high and about as long, that swivels away from
the other side to break the circuit. With six foot long tongues of
electrical flames before it actually disconnects. With the break
*off*. OK, that's impressive. Then he recoonects, and tells the
office to turn it back on. And it's even louder, like a bomb going
off. Everything went prefectly.
(The first step of the tour was a physical inspection of everyone
for metal tape measures. It seems that, on a previous tour, someone
found an opening in one of the control panels - that run the entire
system, with hundreds of thousands of volts involved - and decided
to measure how deep it was, with a metal tape measure. Those old
electromechanical control panels were no longer active, though
still maintained as a backup, but it really drove home the "don't
touch *anytghing* unless you want to be breakfast toast" safety
lecture.)
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 13:33 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <nispif$oa4$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441196 |
In article <nisgtd$rv2$1@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote: > On 6/2/2016 8:14 PM, Don Kuenz wrote: > > Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote: > >> In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the pyrotechnics in > >>> _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up petroleum infrastructure all of > >>> the time. > >> > >> <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or otherwise, they > >> simply aren't relevant> > >> > >> Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at a tank farm is > >> likely to produce an explosion? (I think we've pretty much reached the > >> consensus that it PROBABLY won't unless unusual conditions exist.) > > > > Consensus? You guys sat down in front of your PCs and reached a > > consensus? That's absolutely beautiful. > > > > Did you ever visit a plant and feel those big old two foot diameter > > steel pipes quiver from the pressure? Then you see the flareup and hear > > the alarm. > > > > At first you tell yourself, "It's probably not an alarm. It's just my > > overactive imagination." > > > > The phone rings. You pick it up and the voice on the other end asks, > > "What set off the alarm?" > > > > You tell the voice on the other end that you're electronics technician > > dispatched to fix the communications end of a remote controller. There's > > nobody else around and you don't know the first thing about plants. How > > does the voice expect you to know what just set off the alarm? You plead > > with the voice on the other end to fix whatever just broke. > > > > The voice says that it's probably nothing so don't worry. Then the voice > > hangs up. But the alarm keeps sounding in your ears... > > > > Explosive thoughts fill my mind anywhere within a ten mile radius of a > > plant. May your consensus protect you. > > > > -- > > Don Kuenz KB7RPU > > I drove into my power plant on fire back in 1983 when I was a junior > engineer. That was ... impressive. We melted a 24 MVA Lemme check something here - this isn't me doubting you, it's me not sure whether I'm remembering old knowledge right: 24MVA = 1 amp at 24 million (modulo the preferred interpretation of "mega", of course) volts? My "big volts" knowledge, what there is of it, comes from living next door to a fellow who got his start as a hi-volts lineman and worked his way up to the impressive title of "licensed generating station operator". We yacked about the topic often - About 20 years ago. I'm *MUCH* more competent down in the 5-30 volts DC playground. > utilities transformer to the ground (a 15 ft by 15 ft by 20 ft high > transformer). And melted the accompanying copper bus bars and > switchgear. We had a direct phase to phase short on a 26,000 volt three > phase generator running at 300 MW and capable of 580 MW. > That was a bad day BUT no one got hurt. Ouch... Bad day indeed. I may not know a lot, but I DO know that much "oomph" is gonna make a mess when it goes where it shouldn't. I'm betting the genny was re-rated to "toast"? -- Brought to you by the letter Q and the number .357 Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.
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| From | Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 16:10 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <nisrom$4as$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441207 |
On 6/3/2016 3:33 PM, Don Bruder wrote: > In article <nisgtd$rv2$1@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> > wrote: > >> On 6/2/2016 8:14 PM, Don Kuenz wrote: >>> Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote: >>>> In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the pyrotechnics in >>>>> _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up petroleum infrastructure all of >>>>> the time. >>>> >>>> <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or otherwise, they >>>> simply aren't relevant> >>>> >>>> Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at a tank farm is >>>> likely to produce an explosion? (I think we've pretty much reached the >>>> consensus that it PROBABLY won't unless unusual conditions exist.) >>> >>> Consensus? You guys sat down in front of your PCs and reached a >>> consensus? That's absolutely beautiful. >>> >>> Did you ever visit a plant and feel those big old two foot diameter >>> steel pipes quiver from the pressure? Then you see the flareup and hear >>> the alarm. >>> >>> At first you tell yourself, "It's probably not an alarm. It's just my >>> overactive imagination." >>> >>> The phone rings. You pick it up and the voice on the other end asks, >>> "What set off the alarm?" >>> >>> You tell the voice on the other end that you're electronics technician >>> dispatched to fix the communications end of a remote controller. There's >>> nobody else around and you don't know the first thing about plants. How >>> does the voice expect you to know what just set off the alarm? You plead >>> with the voice on the other end to fix whatever just broke. >>> >>> The voice says that it's probably nothing so don't worry. Then the voice >>> hangs up. But the alarm keeps sounding in your ears... >>> >>> Explosive thoughts fill my mind anywhere within a ten mile radius of a >>> plant. May your consensus protect you. >>> >>> -- >>> Don Kuenz KB7RPU >> >> I drove into my power plant on fire back in 1983 when I was a junior >> engineer. That was ... impressive. We melted a 24 MVA > > Lemme check something here - this isn't me doubting you, it's me not > sure whether I'm remembering old knowledge right: 24MVA = 1 amp at 24 > million (modulo the preferred interpretation of "mega", of course) > volts? > > My "big volts" knowledge, what there is of it, comes from living next > door to a fellow who got his start as a hi-volts lineman and worked his > way up to the impressive title of "licensed generating station > operator". We yacked about the topic often - About 20 years ago. I'm > *MUCH* more competent down in the 5-30 volts DC playground. > >> utilities transformer to the ground (a 15 ft by 15 ft by 20 ft high >> transformer). And melted the accompanying copper bus bars and >> switchgear. We had a direct phase to phase short on a 26,000 volt three >> phase generator running at 300 MW and capable of 580 MW. >> That was a bad day BUT no one got hurt. > > Ouch... Bad day indeed. I may not know a lot, but I DO know that much > "oomph" is gonna make a mess when it goes where it shouldn't. I'm > betting the genny was re-rated to "toast"? That particular transformer was 24 MVA = 26,000 volts at 920+ amps. It transformed the three phase generator power from 26,000 volts down to the 4,160 volts for all of the equipment belonging to that plant. Usually around 6 or 7 MVA unless we were running the boiler startup feed pump with it's 10,000 hp electric motor. That added on another 8 MVA if I remember correctly. The steam turbine generator actually survived the event. The unit utility transformer took the hit and basically melted. I do not remember where the fault actually occurred, either in the copper bus bar or in the transformer itself. The main transformer survived also, rated 600 MVA if I remember correctly. She transformed 26,000 volts to 345,000 volts. We ran a 480 volt three phase 6/0 wire patch cable from the #5 unit to the dead unit, #6, and got #6's base utilities back up including the ultra important steam turbine turning gear (dont want no shaft bow from a hot turbine). I got to help with that (all hands on deck!). We wired that three phase 6/0 wire patch cable LIVE between the units as the #5 and #4 units were holding our west Texas grid together. Me and another guy had ropes tied on the electrician connecting that 6/0 three phase cable to the #5 switch gear. Just in case he went live. We then got a couple of temporary 4,160 volt circuit breakers and a whole lot of copper bus bar from other plants in the system. We were back up in two weeks. This was in July of 1983 in the west Texas city of Colorado City. You don't want to be down in July in Texas. Momma gotta have her air conditioning. Lynn
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-04 13:19 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <JzA4z.4605$Ql2.2170@fx02.iad> |
| In reply to | #441207 |
Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> writes: >In article <nisgtd$rv2$1@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> >wrote: >> I drove into my power plant on fire back in 1983 when I was a junior >> engineer. That was ... impressive. We melted a 24 MVA > >Lemme check something here - this isn't me doubting you, it's me not >sure whether I'm remembering old knowledge right: 24MVA = 1 amp at 24 >million (modulo the preferred interpretation of "mega", of course) >volts? Call it 24 megawatts. Watts are the real power, VA is the apparent power, the product of the voltage applied by the current sunk.
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| From | Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-05 19:44 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <nj2h23$pr8$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441230 |
On 6/4/2016 8:19 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote: > Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> writes: >> In article <nisgtd$rv2$1@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> >> wrote: > >>> I drove into my power plant on fire back in 1983 when I was a junior >>> engineer. That was ... impressive. We melted a 24 MVA >> >> Lemme check something here - this isn't me doubting you, it's me not >> sure whether I'm remembering old knowledge right: 24MVA = 1 amp at 24 >> million (modulo the preferred interpretation of "mega", of course) >> volts? > > Call it 24 megawatts. Watts are the real power, VA is the apparent power, > the product of the voltage applied by the current sunk. Power Transformers are rated on volts * amps. Most generators can run a power factor as low as 0.85 without overheating the generator stator. The power loss due to heat dissipation does not take the power factor into account. Lynn
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 17:10 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA61BAEC1CDE87taustingmail@69.16.179.42> |
| In reply to | #441145 |
Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> wrote in news:20160602a@crcomp.net:
>
> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote in
>> news:nipn6g$pa4$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 6/2/2016 8:13 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote in
>>>>> news:ningqs$659$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>
>>>>>> No, I'm not. But you have to have the exact right mix of
>>>>>> petroleum vapours to oxygen under pressure to get an
>>>>>> explosion. Too much or too little and no kaboom. It's not
>>>>>> that easy to get without planning it that way. Otherwise
>>>>>> it just catches fire.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Refinery fires do happen. Refinery explosions, rather less
>>>>> so.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And when they do explode, it usually the hydrogen byproduct
>>>> gasses.
>>>
>>> Refineries use hydrogen to crack long carbon chains and
>>> replace sulfur in the fuels. All refineries use natural gas
>>> and steam reformers to generate hydrogen. All of this happens
>>> when the hydrocarbons are in the vapor phase which is halfway
>>> to the combustion point.
>>>
>> And it all suggest that firing mortars at a refinery would be
>> of some concern, even if it doesn't actually explode.
>
> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the
> pyrotechnics in _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up
> petroleum infrastructure all of the time.
>
> 5/05/2016
> Niger Delta militants blow up Chevron Valve Platform in
> Delta http://preview.tinyurl.com/guae67g
"destroyed the platform using dynamite"
Dynamite explodes. No shit, Sherlock.
Want to try for something relevant? No? Didn't think so.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 13:50 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ninhqt$p0u$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441025 |
In article <ningqs$659$1@dont-email.me>, David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote: > On 6/1/2016 2:21 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote: > > On 6/1/2016 12:37 PM, David Johnston wrote: > >> On 6/1/2016 11:32 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote: > >>> On 6/1/2016 12:18 PM, Peter Trei wrote: > >>>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 1:02:27 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote: > >>>>> On 6/1/2016 8:49 AM, -dsr- wrote: > >>>>>> On 2016-05-31, Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote: > >>>>>>> _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume > >>>>>>> 1) by Franklin Horton > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Borrowed-World-Novel-Post-Apocalyptic-Collapse/d > >>>>>>> p/1511974419 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> First in a series of three books about an apocalyptic collapse of > >>>>>>> the United States. I purchased the trade paperback version which > >>>>>>> was a very easy read for my old eyes. This is a POD (print on > >>>>>>> demand) printing. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Basically, the plot of the story is that ISIS sends 100 small teams > >>>>>>> of operatives to destroy valuable infrastructure in the USA such > >>>>>>> as refineries, electric grid auto-transformers, bridges, dams, and > >>>>>>> internet peering points in one night. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Finally a workable premise! Except that 100 is not enough, even if > >>>>>> they all > >>>>>> manage to hit ten targets in that night. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 100 could seriously inconvenience any single state, except perhaps > >>>>>> Texas or > >>>>>> California. (The other big states have low populations, so you can > >>>>>> do more > >>>>>> relative damage in an area.) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Let's see: a truck full of AFNO at each tank farm at a refinery, > >>>>>> dynamite > >>>>>> to take out bridges and water treatment plants, guns to overcome > >>>>>> local security > >>>>>> and fast police response... sure, you could make half the population > >>>>>> of the US > >>>>>> unhappy for 3 months. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Life in America immediately > >>>>>>> transforms for worse as the electrical grids and communication > >>>>>>> grids die and the various governmental agencies seize the remaining > >>>>>>> automobile and truck fuel. Food immediately becomes scarce as the > >>>>>>> stores are cleaned out and there is no fuel for the trucks to > >>>>>>> resupply them. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Whoops, this went off the rails fast. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Is it always the case that apocalypso nuts assume that everyone is as > >>>>>> antisocial as they are? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -dsr- > >>>>> > >>>>> Each team hit one target using 81 mm mortars stolen from Guard > >>>>> units. The book had the three biggest refineries in the USA were hit > >>>>> in their tank farms which spread back into the refining equipment. > >>>>> Those three refineries make 125 million gallons of gasoline and > >>>>> diesel per day. BTW, there are only 100 refineries left in the USA > >>>>> with most of them along the Gulf Coast. > >>>> > >>>> OK, I realize we're talking in your area of expertise, not mine, but > >>>> every > >>>> petrochemical tank farm I've seen in the first world has each tank > >>>> surrounded > >>>> by earthen berms specifically to prevent the kind of spread the > >>>> author is > >>>> relying on here. Tank failures and fires are not unforeseen scenarios. > >>>> Did > >>>> the author provide a plausible mechanism by which safety precautions > >>>> were > >>>> overcome? > >>>> > >>>> pt > >>> > >>> Not all of the refinery tank farms that are over 100 years old have > >>> berms. I have no idea on the specifics of these. > >>> > >>> The berms will hold back a collapsing tank. They will not hold back a > >>> 10 million barrel tank that explodes. I must admit that I do not know > >>> about the plausibility of a tank explosion at all. I have modeled many > >>> pressure vessels with external fires but never an oil tank with an > >>> internal fire. > >>> > >>> Lynn > >> > >> The conditions under which a vessel containing flammable liquid will > >> explode are kind of specific. Usually all you get is a fire. > > > > Are you assuming that the vessel that just got an incendiary device > > dropped into it is 100% full of liquid? > > No, I'm not. But you have to have the exact right mix of petroleum > vapours to oxygen under pressure to get an explosion. Too much or too > little and no kaboom. It's not that easy to get without planning it > that way. Otherwise it just catches fire. If it even does that much... -- Brought to you by the letter Q and the number .357 Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.
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| From | David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 15:31 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <nink6r$ho2$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441032 |
On 6/1/2016 2:50 PM, Don Bruder wrote: > In article <ningqs$659$1@dont-email.me>, > David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> On 6/1/2016 2:21 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote: >>> On 6/1/2016 12:37 PM, David Johnston wrote: >>>> On 6/1/2016 11:32 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote: >>>>> On 6/1/2016 12:18 PM, Peter Trei wrote: >>>>>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 1:02:27 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote: >>>>>>> On 6/1/2016 8:49 AM, -dsr- wrote: >>>>>>>> On 2016-05-31, Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume >>>>>>>>> 1) by Franklin Horton >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Borrowed-World-Novel-Post-Apocalyptic-Collapse/d >>>>>>>>> p/1511974419 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> First in a series of three books about an apocalyptic collapse of >>>>>>>>> the United States. I purchased the trade paperback version which >>>>>>>>> was a very easy read for my old eyes. This is a POD (print on >>>>>>>>> demand) printing. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Basically, the plot of the story is that ISIS sends 100 small teams >>>>>>>>> of operatives to destroy valuable infrastructure in the USA such >>>>>>>>> as refineries, electric grid auto-transformers, bridges, dams, and >>>>>>>>> internet peering points in one night. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Finally a workable premise! Except that 100 is not enough, even if >>>>>>>> they all >>>>>>>> manage to hit ten targets in that night. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 100 could seriously inconvenience any single state, except perhaps >>>>>>>> Texas or >>>>>>>> California. (The other big states have low populations, so you can >>>>>>>> do more >>>>>>>> relative damage in an area.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let's see: a truck full of AFNO at each tank farm at a refinery, >>>>>>>> dynamite >>>>>>>> to take out bridges and water treatment plants, guns to overcome >>>>>>>> local security >>>>>>>> and fast police response... sure, you could make half the population >>>>>>>> of the US >>>>>>>> unhappy for 3 months. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Life in America immediately >>>>>>>>> transforms for worse as the electrical grids and communication >>>>>>>>> grids die and the various governmental agencies seize the remaining >>>>>>>>> automobile and truck fuel. Food immediately becomes scarce as the >>>>>>>>> stores are cleaned out and there is no fuel for the trucks to >>>>>>>>> resupply them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Whoops, this went off the rails fast. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is it always the case that apocalypso nuts assume that everyone is as >>>>>>>> antisocial as they are? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -dsr- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Each team hit one target using 81 mm mortars stolen from Guard >>>>>>> units. The book had the three biggest refineries in the USA were hit >>>>>>> in their tank farms which spread back into the refining equipment. >>>>>>> Those three refineries make 125 million gallons of gasoline and >>>>>>> diesel per day. BTW, there are only 100 refineries left in the USA >>>>>>> with most of them along the Gulf Coast. >>>>>> >>>>>> OK, I realize we're talking in your area of expertise, not mine, but >>>>>> every >>>>>> petrochemical tank farm I've seen in the first world has each tank >>>>>> surrounded >>>>>> by earthen berms specifically to prevent the kind of spread the >>>>>> author is >>>>>> relying on here. Tank failures and fires are not unforeseen scenarios. >>>>>> Did >>>>>> the author provide a plausible mechanism by which safety precautions >>>>>> were >>>>>> overcome? >>>>>> >>>>>> pt >>>>> >>>>> Not all of the refinery tank farms that are over 100 years old have >>>>> berms. I have no idea on the specifics of these. >>>>> >>>>> The berms will hold back a collapsing tank. They will not hold back a >>>>> 10 million barrel tank that explodes. I must admit that I do not know >>>>> about the plausibility of a tank explosion at all. I have modeled many >>>>> pressure vessels with external fires but never an oil tank with an >>>>> internal fire. >>>>> >>>>> Lynn >>>> >>>> The conditions under which a vessel containing flammable liquid will >>>> explode are kind of specific. Usually all you get is a fire. >>> >>> Are you assuming that the vessel that just got an incendiary device >>> dropped into it is 100% full of liquid? >> >> No, I'm not. But you have to have the exact right mix of petroleum >> vapours to oxygen under pressure to get an explosion. Too much or too >> little and no kaboom. It's not that easy to get without planning it >> that way. Otherwise it just catches fire. > > If it even does that much... > Yes. If.
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-01 14:49 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA61A96BA532DAtaustingmail@69.16.179.43> |
| In reply to | #441032 |
Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote in
news:ninhqt$p0u$2@dont-email.me:
> In article <ningqs$659$1@dont-email.me>,
> David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 6/1/2016 2:21 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> > On 6/1/2016 12:37 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>> >> On 6/1/2016 11:32 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> >>> On 6/1/2016 12:18 PM, Peter Trei wrote:
>> >>>> On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 1:02:27 PM UTC-4, Lynn
>> >>>> McGuire wrote:
>> >>>>> On 6/1/2016 8:49 AM, -dsr- wrote:
>> >>>>>> On 2016-05-31, Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic
>> >>>>>>> Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/Borrowed-World-Novel-Post-Apocalyp
>> >>>>>>> tic-Collapse/d p/1511974419
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> First in a series of three books about an apocalyptic
>> >>>>>>> collapse of the United States. I purchased the trade
>> >>>>>>> paperback version which was a very easy read for my old
>> >>>>>>> eyes. This is a POD (print on demand) printing.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Basically, the plot of the story is that ISIS sends 100
>> >>>>>>> small teams of operatives to destroy valuable
>> >>>>>>> infrastructure in the USA such as refineries, electric
>> >>>>>>> grid auto-transformers, bridges, dams, and internet
>> >>>>>>> peering points in one night.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Finally a workable premise! Except that 100 is not
>> >>>>>> enough, even if they all
>> >>>>>> manage to hit ten targets in that night.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 100 could seriously inconvenience any single state,
>> >>>>>> except perhaps Texas or
>> >>>>>> California. (The other big states have low populations,
>> >>>>>> so you can do more
>> >>>>>> relative damage in an area.)
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Let's see: a truck full of AFNO at each tank farm at a
>> >>>>>> refinery, dynamite
>> >>>>>> to take out bridges and water treatment plants, guns to
>> >>>>>> overcome local security
>> >>>>>> and fast police response... sure, you could make half
>> >>>>>> the population of the US
>> >>>>>> unhappy for 3 months.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Life in America immediately
>> >>>>>>> transforms for worse as the electrical grids and
>> >>>>>>> communication grids die and the various governmental
>> >>>>>>> agencies seize the remaining automobile and truck fuel.
>> >>>>>>> Food immediately becomes scarce as the stores are
>> >>>>>>> cleaned out and there is no fuel for the trucks to
>> >>>>>>> resupply them.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Whoops, this went off the rails fast.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Is it always the case that apocalypso nuts assume that
>> >>>>>> everyone is as antisocial as they are?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> -dsr-
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Each team hit one target using 81 mm mortars stolen from
>> >>>>> Guard units. The book had the three biggest refineries
>> >>>>> in the USA were hit in their tank farms which spread back
>> >>>>> into the refining equipment. Those three refineries make
>> >>>>> 125 million gallons of gasoline and diesel per day. BTW,
>> >>>>> there are only 100 refineries left in the USA with most
>> >>>>> of them along the Gulf Coast.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> OK, I realize we're talking in your area of expertise, not
>> >>>> mine, but every
>> >>>> petrochemical tank farm I've seen in the first world has
>> >>>> each tank surrounded
>> >>>> by earthen berms specifically to prevent the kind of
>> >>>> spread the author is
>> >>>> relying on here. Tank failures and fires are not
>> >>>> unforeseen scenarios. Did
>> >>>> the author provide a plausible mechanism by which safety
>> >>>> precautions were
>> >>>> overcome?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> pt
>> >>>
>> >>> Not all of the refinery tank farms that are over 100 years
>> >>> old have berms. I have no idea on the specifics of these.
>> >>>
>> >>> The berms will hold back a collapsing tank. They will not
>> >>> hold back a 10 million barrel tank that explodes. I must
>> >>> admit that I do not know about the plausibility of a tank
>> >>> explosion at all. I have modeled many pressure vessels
>> >>> with external fires but never an oil tank with an internal
>> >>> fire.
>> >>>
>> >>> Lynn
>> >>
>> >> The conditions under which a vessel containing flammable
>> >> liquid will explode are kind of specific. Usually all you
>> >> get is a fire.
>> >
>> > Are you assuming that the vessel that just got an incendiary
>> > device dropped into it is 100% full of liquid?
>>
>> No, I'm not. But you have to have the exact right mix of
>> petroleum vapours to oxygen under pressure to get an explosion.
>> Too much or too little and no kaboom. It's not that easy to
>> get without planning it that way. Otherwise it just catches
>> fire.
>
> If it even does that much...
>
https://www.google.com/search?q=refinery+fires&biw=731&bih=532
&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=
0ahUKEwjQz_LD5YfNAhVRxWMKHd40CdIQ_AUIBygC&dpr=1.75
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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