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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #440949 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-05-31 17:14 -0500 |
| Last post | 2016-06-01 12:38 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 129 — 24 participants |
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_The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-31 17:14 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2016-05-31 16:41 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-05-31 19:25 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> - 2016-05-31 20:05 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> - 2016-06-01 18:32 +1200
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 11:52 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 06:54 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 11:47 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-01 02:16 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-06-01 04:36 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 08:31 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-06-01 09:14 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 07:01 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 11:50 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 10:12 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:23 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 15:04 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 15:17 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 16:01 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-02 02:20 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-02 02:16 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 15:13 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-02 02:26 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 13:11 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-02 21:33 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton -dsr- <dsr-usenet@randomstring.org> - 2016-06-01 09:49 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 07:28 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-06-01 14:48 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-01 09:21 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 12:02 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 10:18 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 12:32 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-01 11:37 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 12:47 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 15:21 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-01 14:33 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 13:45 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-02 13:13 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-02 11:34 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 13:14 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-02 22:44 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-02 16:42 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 19:11 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-02 19:54 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-03 07:03 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-03 12:59 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton leif.roar@dimnakorr.com - 2016-06-06 01:06 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-06-06 21:54 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-06-06 20:43 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-03 12:57 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 11:02 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-03 13:16 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 11:49 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-03 15:45 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 14:49 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Harmon <source@netcom.com> - 2016-06-04 00:41 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-04 09:00 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-03 18:41 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-04 01:23 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-03 01:14 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 19:01 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-03 03:40 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 20:51 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-03 02:42 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 06:47 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-06-03 10:50 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 08:39 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-06-03 12:21 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 10:58 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-06-04 00:31 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-06-06 21:58 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-06 20:04 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-06-07 07:28 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 08:57 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-06-07 10:39 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 18:07 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Moriarty <blues95@ivillage.com> - 2016-06-05 15:58 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-05 19:32 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-03 09:26 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-06-03 12:45 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 10:02 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-06-03 13:08 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 11:01 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-06-03 13:08 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-03 18:09 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-06-03 23:51 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-06-04 04:13 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-04 08:18 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 10:59 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-06-03 19:33 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-03 13:05 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-03 11:46 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-03 13:33 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-03 16:10 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-04 13:19 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-05 19:44 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 17:10 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 13:50 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-01 15:31 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 14:49 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-06-02 02:32 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-02 11:36 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-02 10:44 -0600
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-02 11:53 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-06-02 10:36 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 09:53 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-02 12:43 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 17:14 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 16:48 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 20:18 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 22:13 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 21:38 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 22:25 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 22:47 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 22:57 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-02 11:42 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 14:50 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 13:48 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 16:07 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 15:53 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-06-01 19:12 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 20:01 -0500
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-02 13:20 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-06-02 08:10 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-06-01 14:47 -0700
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-06-02 06:44 -0400
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley) - 2016-06-02 14:02 +0100
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-02 13:23 +0000
Re: _The Borrowed World: A Novel of Post-Apocalyptic Collapse_ (Volume 1) by Franklin Horton Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> - 2016-06-01 12:38 -0700
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| From | Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 22:44 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20160602a@crcomp.net> |
| In reply to | #441130 |
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote in
> news:nipn6g$pa4$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 6/2/2016 8:13 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> David Johnston <Davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote in
>>>> news:ningqs$659$1@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>>> No, I'm not. But you have to have the exact right mix of
>>>>> petroleum vapours to oxygen under pressure to get an
>>>>> explosion. Too much or too little and no kaboom. It's not
>>>>> that easy to get without planning it that way. Otherwise it
>>>>> just catches fire.
>>>>>
>>>> Refinery fires do happen. Refinery explosions, rather less so.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And when they do explode, it usually the hydrogen byproduct
>>> gasses.
>>
>> Refineries use hydrogen to crack long carbon chains and replace
>> sulfur in the fuels. All refineries use natural gas and steam
>> reformers to generate hydrogen. All of this happens when the
>> hydrocarbons are in the vapor phase which is halfway to the
>> combustion point.
>>
> And it all suggest that firing mortars at a refinery would be of some
> concern, even if it doesn't actually explode.
Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the pyrotechnics in
_The Borrowed World_, militants blow up petroleum infrastructure all of
the time.
5/05/2016
Niger Delta militants blow up Chevron Valve Platform in Delta
http://preview.tinyurl.com/guae67g
5/28/2016
JUST IN: Niger Delta Avengers Threaten To Shock The World, Cause
More Damages
http://preview.tinyurl.com/jmofmwt
6/1/2016
Just In: Avengers Blow Up Chevron Oil Wells Again Amid Tight
Security
http://preview.tinyurl.com/j5ppu4n
--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
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| From | Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 16:42 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <niqg8u$k9s$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441145 |
In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> wrote: > Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the pyrotechnics in > _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up petroleum infrastructure all of > the time. <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or otherwise, they simply aren't relevant> Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at a tank farm is likely to produce an explosion? (I think we've pretty much reached the consensus that it PROBABLY won't unless unusual conditions exist.) -- Brought to you by the letter Q and the number .357 Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.
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| From | Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 19:11 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA61BCD5C19430melchizedek@216.166.97.131> |
| In reply to | #441147 |
Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote in news:niqg8u$k9s$1@dont-email.me: > In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> > wrote: > >> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the pyrotechnics >> in _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up petroleum infrastructure >> all of the time. > > <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or otherwise, they > simply aren't relevant> > > Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at a tank farm > is likely to produce an explosion? (I think we've pretty much reached > the consensus that it PROBABLY won't unless unusual conditions exist.) > Here's Lynn's original quote: "Each team hit one target using 81 mm mortars stolen from Guard units. The book had the three biggest refineries in the USA were hit in their tank farms which spread back into the refining equipment. " No explosion required. I argued that the earthen berms surrounding tanks would prevent the 'spread'. pt
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| From | Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-02 19:54 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <niqrgc$7pt$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441149 |
In article <XnsA61BCD5C19430melchizedek@216.166.97.131>, Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: > Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote in news:niqg8u$k9s$1@dont-email.me: > > > In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> > > wrote: > > > >> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the pyrotechnics > >> in _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up petroleum infrastructure > >> all of the time. > > > > <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or otherwise, they > > simply aren't relevant> > > > > Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at a tank farm > > is likely to produce an explosion? (I think we've pretty much reached > > the consensus that it PROBABLY won't unless unusual conditions exist.) > > > > Here's Lynn's original quote: > > "Each team hit one target using 81 mm mortars stolen from Guard units. > The book had the three biggest refineries in the USA were hit in their > tank farms which spread back into the refining equipment. " > > No explosion required. I argued that the earthen berms surrounding tanks > would prevent the 'spread'. > > pt Oops, my bad in that context. Last time I was paying attention, the question seemed to have shifted into the realm of "Would hitting a tank with a mortar make the tank blow up? and maybe cause others to go off?" Which, as I noted, seems to have been hashed out to "probably not" elsethread. As far as the fire (if one actually occurred) from such an act being able to spread back into the refining equipment, I'd expect that to be another unlikely occurrence. I'd be shocked stupid to find that there isn't some regulation to the tune of "tanks must be located no less than X feet away from the cracking process", where "X" is some ?reasonable? distance some governmental body (OSHA?) considers adequate to keep either one from setting the other aflame if it catches - regardless of why it might catch. And I'd be just as surprised if there wasn't also a regulation requiring some sort of automatically operated "keep-a-fire-in-the-line-from-spreading" device in the lines between the tank farm and the cracker(s). I'd have to agree with you - I'd expect fire in a tank farm to be unlikely to spread to the refining operation. Or the other way around, for that matter. -- Brought to you by the letter Q and the number .357 Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.
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| From | Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 07:03 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20160602e@crcomp.net> |
| In reply to | #441154 |
Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote: > In article <XnsA61BCD5C19430melchizedek@216.166.97.131>, > Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote in news:niqg8u$k9s$1@dont-email.me: >> >> > In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the pyrotechnics >> >> in _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up petroleum infrastructure >> >> all of the time. >> > >> > <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or otherwise, they >> > simply aren't relevant> >> > >> > Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at a tank farm >> > is likely to produce an explosion? (I think we've pretty much reached >> > the consensus that it PROBABLY won't unless unusual conditions exist.) >> > >> >> Here's Lynn's original quote: >> >> "Each team hit one target using 81 mm mortars stolen from Guard units. >> The book had the three biggest refineries in the USA were hit in their >> tank farms which spread back into the refining equipment. " >> >> No explosion required. I argued that the earthen berms surrounding tanks >> would prevent the 'spread'. >> >> pt > > Oops, my bad in that context. Last time I was paying attention, the > question seemed to have shifted into the realm of "Would hitting a tank > with a mortar make the tank blow up? and maybe cause others to go off?" > > Which, as I noted, seems to have been hashed out to "probably not" > elsethread. > > As far as the fire (if one actually occurred) from such an act being > able to spread back into the refining equipment, I'd expect that to be > another unlikely occurrence. I'd be shocked stupid to find that there > isn't some regulation to the tune of "tanks must be located no less than > X feet away from the cracking process", where "X" is some ?reasonable? > distance some governmental body (OSHA?) considers adequate to keep > either one from setting the other aflame if it catches - regardless of > why it might catch. And I'd be just as surprised if there wasn't also a > regulation requiring some sort of automatically operated > "keep-a-fire-in-the-line-from-spreading" device in the lines between the > tank farm and the cracker(s). I'd have to agree with you - I'd expect > fire in a tank farm to be unlikely to spread to the refining operation. > Or the other way around, for that matter. My anonymous source told me that refineries use HAZOP to minimize potential hazards. HAZOP makes secondary explosions and fires highly improbable. The cognitive dissonance in _The Borrowed World_ is that Horton has the wrong villains break the infrastructure. In the real world, Horton's villains are more interested in killing people than breaking infrastructure. This thread more-or-less touched on that aspect at first. Before it got lost in the shuffle. -- Don Kuenz KB7RPU
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| From | Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 12:59 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <nisght$pgj$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441162 |
On 6/3/2016 2:03 AM, Don Kuenz wrote: > Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote: >> In article <XnsA61BCD5C19430melchizedek@216.166.97.131>, >> Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote in news:niqg8u$k9s$1@dont-email.me: >>> >>>> In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the pyrotechnics >>>>> in _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up petroleum infrastructure >>>>> all of the time. >>>> >>>> <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or otherwise, they >>>> simply aren't relevant> >>>> >>>> Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at a tank farm >>>> is likely to produce an explosion? (I think we've pretty much reached >>>> the consensus that it PROBABLY won't unless unusual conditions exist.) >>>> >>> >>> Here's Lynn's original quote: >>> >>> "Each team hit one target using 81 mm mortars stolen from Guard units. >>> The book had the three biggest refineries in the USA were hit in their >>> tank farms which spread back into the refining equipment. " >>> >>> No explosion required. I argued that the earthen berms surrounding tanks >>> would prevent the 'spread'. >>> >>> pt >> >> Oops, my bad in that context. Last time I was paying attention, the >> question seemed to have shifted into the realm of "Would hitting a tank >> with a mortar make the tank blow up? and maybe cause others to go off?" >> >> Which, as I noted, seems to have been hashed out to "probably not" >> elsethread. >> >> As far as the fire (if one actually occurred) from such an act being >> able to spread back into the refining equipment, I'd expect that to be >> another unlikely occurrence. I'd be shocked stupid to find that there >> isn't some regulation to the tune of "tanks must be located no less than >> X feet away from the cracking process", where "X" is some ?reasonable? >> distance some governmental body (OSHA?) considers adequate to keep >> either one from setting the other aflame if it catches - regardless of >> why it might catch. And I'd be just as surprised if there wasn't also a >> regulation requiring some sort of automatically operated >> "keep-a-fire-in-the-line-from-spreading" device in the lines between the >> tank farm and the cracker(s). I'd have to agree with you - I'd expect >> fire in a tank farm to be unlikely to spread to the refining operation. >> Or the other way around, for that matter. > > My anonymous source told me that refineries use HAZOP to minimize > potential hazards. HAZOP makes secondary explosions and fires highly > improbable. > > The cognitive dissonance in _The Borrowed World_ is that Horton has the > wrong villains break the infrastructure. In the real world, Horton's > villains are more interested in killing people than breaking > infrastructure. > > This thread more-or-less touched on that aspect at first. Before it got > lost in the shuffle. > > -- > Don Kuenz KB7RPU True, very true. If the terrorists switch from killing people to killing infrastructure though, look out! Lynn
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| From | leif.roar@dimnakorr.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-06 01:06 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <rP-dnQgegblJj8jKnZ2dnUU78LvNnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #441191 |
Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote: > > True, very true. If the terrorists switch from killing > people to killing infrastructure though, look out! > These scenarios only work if you ignore the systems that are in place to protect and repair broken infrastructure _as well as_ society's capability for adapting to crises and adverse circumstances. -- Leif Roar Moldskred
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| From | David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-06 21:54 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <P4adnSzW9v3BqsvKnZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #441316 |
On 2016-06-06, leif.roar@dimnakorr.com <leif.roar@dimnakorr.com> wrote: > Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote: >> True, very true. If the terrorists switch from killing >> people to killing infrastructure though, look out! > > These scenarios only work if you ignore the systems that > are in place to protect and repair broken infrastructure > _as well as_ society's capability for adapting to crises > and adverse circumstances. Well, yeah! See, in this worldview society, and government, are Irretrievably Broken and must be Torn Down to create a Better To-morrow; therefore any attempt by gummint to fix the destroyed infrastructure will be totally ineffectual, as will any attempts by mainstream society to ostracize, track down, and/or educate the terrorists trying to Bring It All Down Boom. So the inevitable result is apocalypse, and soon. This worldview does have some trouble with the fact that apocalypse keeps _not arriving_, either on schedule or accidentally. But so far it seems good at denying or rationalizing away the fact that the Inevitable keeps not happening. (Note that I am NOT saying Lynn is of this worldview; he's just a fan of post-apoc books written by folks who seemingly do partake of it. We all have our comfort reading.) Dave, will maintain society for food. some tweakage of customs or settling may occur. opinions respected by weight, not by volume. -- \/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK> http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
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| From | Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-06 20:43 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <nj5fse$7sr$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441348 |
On 6/6/2016 7:54 PM, David DeLaney wrote: > > Dave, will maintain society for food. some tweakage of customs or settling may > occur. opinions respected by weight, not by volume. > Not even volume of fire? ;) -- Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey for Summer 2016
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| From | Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 12:57 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <nisgev$pgj$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441154 |
On 6/2/2016 9:54 PM, Don Bruder wrote: > In article <XnsA61BCD5C19430melchizedek@216.166.97.131>, > Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote in news:niqg8u$k9s$1@dont-email.me: >> >>> In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the pyrotechnics >>>> in _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up petroleum infrastructure >>>> all of the time. >>> >>> <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or otherwise, they >>> simply aren't relevant> >>> >>> Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at a tank farm >>> is likely to produce an explosion? (I think we've pretty much reached >>> the consensus that it PROBABLY won't unless unusual conditions exist.) >>> >> >> Here's Lynn's original quote: >> >> "Each team hit one target using 81 mm mortars stolen from Guard units. >> The book had the three biggest refineries in the USA were hit in their >> tank farms which spread back into the refining equipment. " >> >> No explosion required. I argued that the earthen berms surrounding tanks >> would prevent the 'spread'. >> >> pt > > Oops, my bad in that context. Last time I was paying attention, the > question seemed to have shifted into the realm of "Would hitting a tank > with a mortar make the tank blow up? and maybe cause others to go off?" > > Which, as I noted, seems to have been hashed out to "probably not" > elsethread. > > As far as the fire (if one actually occurred) from such an act being > able to spread back into the refining equipment, I'd expect that to be > another unlikely occurrence. I'd be shocked stupid to find that there > isn't some regulation to the tune of "tanks must be located no less than > X feet away from the cracking process", where "X" is some ?reasonable? > distance some governmental body (OSHA?) considers adequate to keep > either one from setting the other aflame if it catches - regardless of > why it might catch. And I'd be just as surprised if there wasn't also a > regulation requiring some sort of automatically operated > "keep-a-fire-in-the-line-from-spreading" device in the lines between the > tank farm and the cracker(s). I'd have to agree with you - I'd expect > fire in a tank farm to be unlikely to spread to the refining operation. > Or the other way around, for that matter. Most USA refineries are over 50 years old and laid out before any regulations. There has only been one refinery built in the last 30 years in the USA. Lynn
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 11:02 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA61C705FED97Ftaustingmail@69.16.179.42> |
| In reply to | #441189 |
Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote in
news:nisgev$pgj$1@dont-email.me:
> On 6/2/2016 9:54 PM, Don Bruder wrote:
>> In article <XnsA61BCD5C19430melchizedek@216.166.97.131>,
>> Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote in
>>> news:niqg8u$k9s$1@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>> In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz
>>>> <garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the
>>>>> pyrotechnics in _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up
>>>>> petroleum infrastructure all of the time.
>>>>
>>>> <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or
>>>> otherwise, they simply aren't relevant>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at a
>>>> tank farm is likely to produce an explosion? (I think we've
>>>> pretty much reached the consensus that it PROBABLY won't
>>>> unless unusual conditions exist.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Here's Lynn's original quote:
>>>
>>> "Each team hit one target using 81 mm mortars stolen from
>>> Guard units. The book had the three biggest refineries in the
>>> USA were hit in their tank farms which spread back into the
>>> refining equipment. "
>>>
>>> No explosion required. I argued that the earthen berms
>>> surrounding tanks would prevent the 'spread'.
>>>
>>> pt
>>
>> Oops, my bad in that context. Last time I was paying attention,
>> the question seemed to have shifted into the realm of "Would
>> hitting a tank with a mortar make the tank blow up? and maybe
>> cause others to go off?"
>>
>> Which, as I noted, seems to have been hashed out to "probably
>> not" elsethread.
>>
>> As far as the fire (if one actually occurred) from such an act
>> being able to spread back into the refining equipment, I'd
>> expect that to be another unlikely occurrence. I'd be shocked
>> stupid to find that there isn't some regulation to the tune of
>> "tanks must be located no less than X feet away from the
>> cracking process", where "X" is some ?reasonable? distance some
>> governmental body (OSHA?) considers adequate to keep either one
>> from setting the other aflame if it catches - regardless of
>> why it might catch. And I'd be just as surprised if there
>> wasn't also a regulation requiring some sort of automatically
>> operated "keep-a-fire-in-the-line-from-spreading" device in the
>> lines between the tank farm and the cracker(s). I'd have to
>> agree with you - I'd expect fire in a tank farm to be unlikely
>> to spread to the refining operation. Or the other way around,
>> for that matter.
>
> Most USA refineries are over 50 years old and laid out before
> any regulations. There has only been one refinery built in the
> last 30 years in the USA.
>
And, of course, it's literally physically impossible for anyone to
ever upgrade anything in any way, so every single one of them is
exactly the same as the day it was built, eh?
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 13:16 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <nishhc$uc8$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441194 |
On 6/3/2016 1:02 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote: > Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote in > news:nisgev$pgj$1@dont-email.me: > >> On 6/2/2016 9:54 PM, Don Bruder wrote: >>> In article <XnsA61BCD5C19430melchizedek@216.166.97.131>, >>> Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote in >>>> news:niqg8u$k9s$1@dont-email.me: >>>> >>>>> In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz >>>>> <garbage@crcomp.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the >>>>>> pyrotechnics in _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up >>>>>> petroleum infrastructure all of the time. >>>>> >>>>> <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or >>>>> otherwise, they simply aren't relevant> >>>>> >>>>> Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at a >>>>> tank farm is likely to produce an explosion? (I think we've >>>>> pretty much reached the consensus that it PROBABLY won't >>>>> unless unusual conditions exist.) >>>>> >>>> >>>> Here's Lynn's original quote: >>>> >>>> "Each team hit one target using 81 mm mortars stolen from >>>> Guard units. The book had the three biggest refineries in the >>>> USA were hit in their tank farms which spread back into the >>>> refining equipment. " >>>> >>>> No explosion required. I argued that the earthen berms >>>> surrounding tanks would prevent the 'spread'. >>>> >>>> pt >>> >>> Oops, my bad in that context. Last time I was paying attention, >>> the question seemed to have shifted into the realm of "Would >>> hitting a tank with a mortar make the tank blow up? and maybe >>> cause others to go off?" >>> >>> Which, as I noted, seems to have been hashed out to "probably >>> not" elsethread. >>> >>> As far as the fire (if one actually occurred) from such an act >>> being able to spread back into the refining equipment, I'd >>> expect that to be another unlikely occurrence. I'd be shocked >>> stupid to find that there isn't some regulation to the tune of >>> "tanks must be located no less than X feet away from the >>> cracking process", where "X" is some ?reasonable? distance some >>> governmental body (OSHA?) considers adequate to keep either one >>> from setting the other aflame if it catches - regardless of >>> why it might catch. And I'd be just as surprised if there >>> wasn't also a regulation requiring some sort of automatically >>> operated "keep-a-fire-in-the-line-from-spreading" device in the >>> lines between the tank farm and the cracker(s). I'd have to >>> agree with you - I'd expect fire in a tank farm to be unlikely >>> to spread to the refining operation. Or the other way around, >>> for that matter. >> >> Most USA refineries are over 50 years old and laid out before >> any regulations. There has only been one refinery built in the >> last 30 years in the USA. >> > And, of course, it's literally physically impossible for anyone to > ever upgrade anything in any way, so every single one of them is > exactly the same as the day it was built, eh? Once laid out, it is very difficult (and expensive) to change a large plant like that. If the refinery is not operating then they are losing money. In fact, most refineries are rarely 100% shutdown. Just about the only time one is ever 100% shutdown is a power failure as most refineries generate their own power but use the grid for frequency and voltage regulation. Sure, the layout can be changed but it is difficult. And most of the large (500,000+ barrels/day) refineries in the USA are approaching 100 years of age. Lynn
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 11:49 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA61C785EB2770taustingmail@69.16.179.43> |
| In reply to | #441197 |
Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote in
news:nishhc$uc8$1@dont-email.me:
> On 6/3/2016 1:02 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote in
>> news:nisgev$pgj$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 6/2/2016 9:54 PM, Don Bruder wrote:
>>>> In article <XnsA61BCD5C19430melchizedek@216.166.97.131>,
>>>> Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote in
>>>>> news:niqg8u$k9s$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz
>>>>>> <garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the
>>>>>>> pyrotechnics in _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up
>>>>>>> petroleum infrastructure all of the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or
>>>>>> otherwise, they simply aren't relevant>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at a
>>>>>> tank farm is likely to produce an explosion? (I think we've
>>>>>> pretty much reached the consensus that it PROBABLY won't
>>>>>> unless unusual conditions exist.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's Lynn's original quote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Each team hit one target using 81 mm mortars stolen from
>>>>> Guard units. The book had the three biggest refineries in
>>>>> the USA were hit in their tank farms which spread back into
>>>>> the refining equipment. "
>>>>>
>>>>> No explosion required. I argued that the earthen berms
>>>>> surrounding tanks would prevent the 'spread'.
>>>>>
>>>>> pt
>>>>
>>>> Oops, my bad in that context. Last time I was paying
>>>> attention, the question seemed to have shifted into the realm
>>>> of "Would hitting a tank with a mortar make the tank blow up?
>>>> and maybe cause others to go off?"
>>>>
>>>> Which, as I noted, seems to have been hashed out to "probably
>>>> not" elsethread.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the fire (if one actually occurred) from such an
>>>> act being able to spread back into the refining equipment,
>>>> I'd expect that to be another unlikely occurrence. I'd be
>>>> shocked stupid to find that there isn't some regulation to
>>>> the tune of "tanks must be located no less than X feet away
>>>> from the cracking process", where "X" is some ?reasonable?
>>>> distance some governmental body (OSHA?) considers adequate to
>>>> keep either one from setting the other aflame if it catches -
>>>> regardless of why it might catch. And I'd be just as
>>>> surprised if there wasn't also a regulation requiring some
>>>> sort of automatically operated
>>>> "keep-a-fire-in-the-line-from-spreading" device in the lines
>>>> between the tank farm and the cracker(s). I'd have to agree
>>>> with you - I'd expect fire in a tank farm to be unlikely
>>>> to spread to the refining operation. Or the other way around,
>>>> for that matter.
>>>
>>> Most USA refineries are over 50 years old and laid out before
>>> any regulations. There has only been one refinery built in
>>> the last 30 years in the USA.
>>>
>> And, of course, it's literally physically impossible for anyone
>> to ever upgrade anything in any way, so every single one of
>> them is exactly the same as the day it was built, eh?
>
> Once laid out, it is very difficult (and expensive) to change a
> large plant like that.
Petrochemical companies make lots of money. And safety features
don't always (or even generally) require rebuilding the entire
plant. Adding berms between tanks, changing out valves to add more
automated shutdown features, that sort of thing.
> If the refinery is not operating then
> they are losing money.
Maintance, repairs and upgrades are part of the schedule.
> In fact, most refineries are rarely 100%
> shutdown.
Most refineries don't need to be for scheduled stuff. Nor do they
need to be to do safety feature upgrades.
> Just about the only time one is ever 100% shutdown is
> a power failure as most refineries generate their own power but
> use the grid for frequency and voltage regulation.
>
> Sure, the layout can be changed but it is difficult. And most
> of the large (500,000+ barrels/day) refineries in the USA are
> approaching 100 years of age.
>
Layout doesn't need to be changed to incorporate new technology and
new safety equipment. It's rather idiotic to suggest it does.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 15:45 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <nisqa3$up9$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #441200 |
On 6/3/2016 1:49 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote in
> news:nishhc$uc8$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 6/3/2016 1:02 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>> Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote in
>>> news:nisgev$pgj$1@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>>> On 6/2/2016 9:54 PM, Don Bruder wrote:
>>>>> In article <XnsA61BCD5C19430melchizedek@216.166.97.131>,
>>>>> Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote in
>>>>>> news:niqg8u$k9s$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz
>>>>>>> <garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the
>>>>>>>> pyrotechnics in _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up
>>>>>>>> petroleum infrastructure all of the time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or
>>>>>>> otherwise, they simply aren't relevant>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at a
>>>>>>> tank farm is likely to produce an explosion? (I think we've
>>>>>>> pretty much reached the consensus that it PROBABLY won't
>>>>>>> unless unusual conditions exist.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's Lynn's original quote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Each team hit one target using 81 mm mortars stolen from
>>>>>> Guard units. The book had the three biggest refineries in
>>>>>> the USA were hit in their tank farms which spread back into
>>>>>> the refining equipment. "
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No explosion required. I argued that the earthen berms
>>>>>> surrounding tanks would prevent the 'spread'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> pt
>>>>>
>>>>> Oops, my bad in that context. Last time I was paying
>>>>> attention, the question seemed to have shifted into the realm
>>>>> of "Would hitting a tank with a mortar make the tank blow up?
>>>>> and maybe cause others to go off?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Which, as I noted, seems to have been hashed out to "probably
>>>>> not" elsethread.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as the fire (if one actually occurred) from such an
>>>>> act being able to spread back into the refining equipment,
>>>>> I'd expect that to be another unlikely occurrence. I'd be
>>>>> shocked stupid to find that there isn't some regulation to
>>>>> the tune of "tanks must be located no less than X feet away
>>>>> from the cracking process", where "X" is some ?reasonable?
>>>>> distance some governmental body (OSHA?) considers adequate to
>>>>> keep either one from setting the other aflame if it catches -
>>>>> regardless of why it might catch. And I'd be just as
>>>>> surprised if there wasn't also a regulation requiring some
>>>>> sort of automatically operated
>>>>> "keep-a-fire-in-the-line-from-spreading" device in the lines
>>>>> between the tank farm and the cracker(s). I'd have to agree
>>>>> with you - I'd expect fire in a tank farm to be unlikely
>>>>> to spread to the refining operation. Or the other way around,
>>>>> for that matter.
>>>>
>>>> Most USA refineries are over 50 years old and laid out before
>>>> any regulations. There has only been one refinery built in
>>>> the last 30 years in the USA.
>>>>
>>> And, of course, it's literally physically impossible for anyone
>>> to ever upgrade anything in any way, so every single one of
>>> them is exactly the same as the day it was built, eh?
>>
>> Once laid out, it is very difficult (and expensive) to change a
>> large plant like that.
>
> Petrochemical companies make lots of money. And safety features
> don't always (or even generally) require rebuilding the entire
> plant. Adding berms between tanks, changing out valves to add more
> automated shutdown features, that sort of thing.
>
>> If the refinery is not operating then
>> they are losing money.
>
> Maintance, repairs and upgrades are part of the schedule.
>
>> In fact, most refineries are rarely 100%
>> shutdown.
>
> Most refineries don't need to be for scheduled stuff. Nor do they
> need to be to do safety feature upgrades.
>
>> Just about the only time one is ever 100% shutdown is
>> a power failure as most refineries generate their own power but
>> use the grid for frequency and voltage regulation.
>>
>> Sure, the layout can be changed but it is difficult. And most
>> of the large (500,000+ barrels/day) refineries in the USA are
>> approaching 100 years of age.
>>
> Layout doesn't need to be changed to incorporate new technology and
> new safety equipment. It's rather idiotic to suggest it does.
Um, wrong. Starting one unit while working on the next unit can be fairly dangerous. Admittedly, BP had been told to get rid of the
vent stacks for years. I'm sure that their planned removal technique did not include explosion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_Refinery_explosion
Lynn
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| From | Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 14:49 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <XnsA61C96C6B93EDtaustingmail@69.16.179.42> |
| In reply to | #441208 |
Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote in
news:nisqa3$up9$1@dont-email.me:
> On 6/3/2016 1:49 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote in
>> news:nishhc$uc8$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 6/3/2016 1:02 PM, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy wrote:
>>>> Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote in
>>>> news:nisgev$pgj$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/2/2016 9:54 PM, Don Bruder wrote:
>>>>>> In article <XnsA61BCD5C19430melchizedek@216.166.97.131>,
>>>>>> Cryptoengineer <treifamily@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote in
>>>>>>> news:niqg8u$k9s$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz
>>>>>>>> <garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the
>>>>>>>>> pyrotechnics in _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up
>>>>>>>>> petroleum infrastructure all of the time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or
>>>>>>>> otherwise, they simply aren't relevant>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at
>>>>>>>> a tank farm is likely to produce an explosion? (I think
>>>>>>>> we've pretty much reached the consensus that it PROBABLY
>>>>>>>> won't unless unusual conditions exist.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here's Lynn's original quote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Each team hit one target using 81 mm mortars stolen from
>>>>>>> Guard units. The book had the three biggest refineries in
>>>>>>> the USA were hit in their tank farms which spread back
>>>>>>> into the refining equipment. "
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No explosion required. I argued that the earthen berms
>>>>>>> surrounding tanks would prevent the 'spread'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> pt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oops, my bad in that context. Last time I was paying
>>>>>> attention, the question seemed to have shifted into the
>>>>>> realm of "Would hitting a tank with a mortar make the tank
>>>>>> blow up? and maybe cause others to go off?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which, as I noted, seems to have been hashed out to
>>>>>> "probably not" elsethread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as the fire (if one actually occurred) from such an
>>>>>> act being able to spread back into the refining equipment,
>>>>>> I'd expect that to be another unlikely occurrence. I'd be
>>>>>> shocked stupid to find that there isn't some regulation to
>>>>>> the tune of "tanks must be located no less than X feet away
>>>>>> from the cracking process", where "X" is some ?reasonable?
>>>>>> distance some governmental body (OSHA?) considers adequate
>>>>>> to keep either one from setting the other aflame if it
>>>>>> catches - regardless of why it might catch. And I'd be just
>>>>>> as surprised if there wasn't also a regulation requiring
>>>>>> some sort of automatically operated
>>>>>> "keep-a-fire-in-the-line-from-spreading" device in the
>>>>>> lines between the tank farm and the cracker(s). I'd have to
>>>>>> agree with you - I'd expect fire in a tank farm to be
>>>>>> unlikely to spread to the refining operation. Or the other
>>>>>> way around, for that matter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most USA refineries are over 50 years old and laid out
>>>>> before any regulations. There has only been one refinery
>>>>> built in the last 30 years in the USA.
>>>>>
>>>> And, of course, it's literally physically impossible for
>>>> anyone to ever upgrade anything in any way, so every single
>>>> one of them is exactly the same as the day it was built, eh?
>>>
>>> Once laid out, it is very difficult (and expensive) to change
>>> a large plant like that.
>>
>> Petrochemical companies make lots of money. And safety features
>> don't always (or even generally) require rebuilding the entire
>> plant. Adding berms between tanks, changing out valves to add
>> more automated shutdown features, that sort of thing.
>>
>>> If the refinery is not operating then
>>> they are losing money.
>>
>> Maintance, repairs and upgrades are part of the schedule.
>>
>>> In fact, most refineries are rarely 100%
>>> shutdown.
>>
>> Most refineries don't need to be for scheduled stuff. Nor do
>> they need to be to do safety feature upgrades.
>>
>>> Just about the only time one is ever 100% shutdown is
>>> a power failure as most refineries generate their own power
>>> but use the grid for frequency and voltage regulation.
>>>
>>> Sure, the layout can be changed but it is difficult. And most
>>> of the large (500,000+ barrels/day) refineries in the USA are
>>> approaching 100 years of age.
>>>
>> Layout doesn't need to be changed to incorporate new technology
>> and new safety equipment. It's rather idiotic to suggest it
>> does.
>
> Um, wrong.
You are, yes, when you claim that nothing has changed in the
technology used at refineries in a hundred years.
Plus, of course, that's not actually what I said. Shutdowns for
maintenance, repair and upgrades _are_ scheduled, and _do_ happen,
regularly. Not as often as they should, but when you claim that
_nothing_ has changed in any refinery in a hundred years, you look
*stupid*.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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| From | David Harmon <source@netcom.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-04 00:41 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <gKWdnctSKZdqGM_KnZ2dnUU7-TXNnZ2d@earthlink.com> |
| In reply to | #441197 |
On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 13:16:06 -0500 in rec.arts.sf.written, Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote, > >Once laid out, it is very difficult (and expensive) to change a large plant like that. If the refinery is not operating then they >are losing money. In fact, most refineries are rarely 100% shutdown. Just about the only time one is ever 100% shutdown is a power >failure as most refineries generate their own power but use the grid for frequency and voltage regulation. The ExxonMobile refinery in Torrance CA was shut down for over a year following an explosion in Feb. 2015 until recently. http://www.dailybreeze.com/business/20160510/torrance-exxonmobil-refinery-restarts-without-problems
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| From | Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-04 09:00 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <drg8noFbakbU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #441197 |
Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote: >Once laid out, it is very difficult (and expensive) to change a large plant like that. If the refinery is not operating then they >are losing money. In fact, most refineries are rarely 100% shutdown. Just about the only time one is ever 100% shutdown is a power >failure as most refineries generate their own power but use the grid for frequency and voltage regulation. I used to live about 3/4 of a mile from a major base metal smelter. It would shut down for maintenance for the last two weeks of August every year, and everyone (but the mechanical guys) would get their vacation at the same time. The smelter didn't have power internal to the pland grounds, but owned a bunch of dams in the neighborhood. A third (by area, not population) of a very large province was powered by the leftovers from the dams built to electroplate zinc as the final step of smelting. -- We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 18:41 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <8bk4z.2159$7i2.1@fx05.iad> |
| In reply to | #441194 |
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> writes: >Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote in >> Most USA refineries are over 50 years old and laid out before >> any regulations. There has only been one refinery built in the >> last 30 years in the USA. >> >And, of course, it's literally physically impossible for anyone to >ever upgrade anything in any way, so every single one of them is >exactly the same as the day it was built, eh? Not impossible, but the hoops one must need jump through are extensive and long.
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| From | Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-04 01:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20160603b@crcomp.net> |
| In reply to | #441189 |
Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> wrote: > Most USA refineries are over 50 years old and laid out before any > regulations. There has only been one refinery built in the last 30 > years in the USA. It's my hunch that many (most?) oil rigs are also over 50 years old. One of my associates is a savant when it comes to rigs. More about him in a moment. Many people in the oil and gas industry are a little eccentric. Just look at what you do/did with tanks in the old tank farm. That's a little bit crazy (not that there's anything wrong with it). ;) Back in the day they experimented with setting off a nuclear bombs underground to liquefy coal. They called it Project Thunderbird. Old dreams never die. Broken Hill recently tried to use underground jet engines to liquefy coal. Getting back to that savant, he's tightly wound. But he intimately knows every part in every rig, many (most?) of which were custom built over 50 years ago. He talks about those who "poor boy" their rigs because they're too cheap to buy the correct part from him. Then there's the tinker crowd. Rigs are engineered with the big picture in mind. "Improvements" in one area of the rig inevitably degrade other areas. Nonetheless some tinkerers will continue with "improvements" until they wind up with a totally tricked out work of art that passes for a rig. There's a million oil field stories. It's probably a good time for me to get back to SF stories. -- Don Kuenz KB7RPU
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| From | Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-06-03 01:14 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20160602b@crcomp.net> |
| In reply to | #441147 |
Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote: > In article <20160602a@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> > wrote: > >> Although Horton may use poetic license to dramatize the pyrotechnics in >> _The Borrowed World_, militants blow up petroleum infrastructure all of >> the time. > > <snipped your links - true, false, right, wrong, or otherwise, they > simply aren't relevant> > > Yeah, so? What's that got to do with whether shooting at a tank farm is > likely to produce an explosion? (I think we've pretty much reached the > consensus that it PROBABLY won't unless unusual conditions exist.) Consensus? You guys sat down in front of your PCs and reached a consensus? That's absolutely beautiful. Did you ever visit a plant and feel those big old two foot diameter steel pipes quiver from the pressure? Then you see the flareup and hear the alarm. At first you tell yourself, "It's probably not an alarm. It's just my overactive imagination." The phone rings. You pick it up and the voice on the other end asks, "What set off the alarm?" You tell the voice on the other end that you're electronics technician dispatched to fix the communications end of a remote controller. There's nobody else around and you don't know the first thing about plants. How does the voice expect you to know what just set off the alarm? You plead with the voice on the other end to fix whatever just broke. The voice says that it's probably nothing so don't worry. Then the voice hangs up. But the alarm keeps sounding in your ears... Explosive thoughts fill my mind anywhere within a ten mile radius of a plant. May your consensus protect you. -- Don Kuenz KB7RPU
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