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Groups > rec.arts.sf.written > #439256 > unrolled thread
| Started by | michael <me@here.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-05-01 00:26 -0500 |
| Last post | 2016-05-07 14:40 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 138 — 35 participants |
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Creative Political Systems in SF michael <me@here.com> - 2016-05-01 00:26 -0500
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-05-01 08:01 +0100
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-05-01 21:29 +0000
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-01 14:55 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 15:20 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-01 20:57 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-01 19:11 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 19:47 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-01 21:06 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-03 08:32 +0800
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 06:33 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-05-04 20:02 +0300
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 20:48 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 06:51 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-03 08:35 +0800
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-05-04 20:14 +0300
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-05-04 12:17 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 12:30 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-05-04 20:03 +0000
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-04 13:57 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-05 10:24 +0800
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-04 22:38 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-05-05 06:03 +0300
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-05 07:08 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-05 15:14 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-05-05 15:54 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-05-07 17:03 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-07 20:27 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-06 10:16 +0800
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 15:15 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-05-01 23:52 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 21:10 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "cycjec"<cycjec@freeshell.INVALID> - 2016-05-04 13:32 +0000
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-01 07:41 -0500
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2016-05-01 10:24 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 11:23 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2016-05-01 11:56 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-01 16:57 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 15:12 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-05-02 07:32 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-05-04 19:59 +0300
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-05-07 17:00 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-05-10 14:23 +0000
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 15:05 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-05-01 18:30 -0500
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF michael <me@here.com> - 2016-05-03 19:32 -0500
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-05-04 19:56 +0300
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> - 2016-05-07 13:50 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Mart van de Wege <mvdwege@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 09:17 +0200
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-09 14:15 -0500
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> - 2016-05-09 22:56 +0300
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-09 15:02 -0500
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-05-09 13:57 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-05-09 21:00 +0000
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-05-09 18:09 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-09 18:52 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-09 19:35 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-05-10 09:37 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-05-10 12:06 -0500
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-09 16:06 -0500
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-05-09 19:11 -0500
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-05-10 09:36 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-05-10 12:04 -0500
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-05-10 13:11 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-05-09 21:45 -0600
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-05-09 21:39 -0600
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-09 15:26 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-09 18:14 -0500
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2016-05-01 13:56 -0600
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-01 13:07 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 15:10 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2016-05-01 17:00 -0600
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 16:11 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2016-05-01 18:12 -0600
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 19:26 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-02 08:56 +0800
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-01 19:40 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-05-01 18:21 -0500
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2016-05-01 22:57 -0300
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2016-05-01 21:33 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-01 22:33 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 06:54 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-05-06 17:18 +0000
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-05-06 17:58 +0000
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 11:14 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 11:27 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Joe Bernstein <joe@sfbooks.com> - 2016-05-07 10:05 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> - 2016-05-07 17:29 +0000
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-05-07 17:04 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kay Shapero <kay@invalid.net> - 2016-05-06 23:04 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-07 04:53 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kay Shapero <kay@invalid.net> - 2016-05-07 20:55 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 00:07 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-05-09 10:11 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seawasp@sgeinc.invalid.com> - 2016-05-09 10:08 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-05-07 14:25 -0600
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David DeLaney <daviddelaney@earthlink.net> - 2016-05-08 04:52 -0500
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-05-08 15:37 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-05-09 02:20 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-05-09 17:44 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taustinca@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 11:06 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> - 2016-05-06 22:08 +0000
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2016-05-07 00:19 -0300
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> - 2016-05-07 00:21 -0300
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-07 07:22 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-05-07 08:37 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Greg Goss <gossg@gossg.org> - 2016-05-07 14:29 -0600
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-05-09 16:34 +0000
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-10 08:52 +0800
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-09 18:48 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> - 2016-05-09 20:31 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-11 08:33 +0800
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-05-11 05:42 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2016-05-11 18:31 +0000
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF lal_truckee <lal_truckee@yahoo.com> - 2016-05-06 16:30 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2016-05-07 00:09 -0400
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> - 2016-05-07 11:48 +0000
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-07 07:28 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-07 09:43 +0800
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF mcdowell_ag@sky.com - 2016-05-02 03:55 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-05-07 16:56 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-07 19:30 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2016-05-02 08:47 +0800
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-05-02 11:23 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF David Johnston <David@block.net> - 2016-05-02 15:18 -0600
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> - 2016-05-03 02:11 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-05-03 21:35 +0100
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Butch Malahide <fred.galvin@gmail.com> - 2016-05-02 17:44 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-05-03 03:57 +0000
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) - 2016-05-03 04:10 +0000
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> - 2016-05-06 22:48 +0000
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-05-03 11:52 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-04 17:12 -0500
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2016-05-04 17:51 -0500
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF hamish.laws@gmail.com - 2016-05-04 16:56 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF "nuny@bid.nes" <Alien8752@gmail.com> - 2016-05-06 16:45 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> - 2016-05-07 07:09 -0700
Re: Creative Political Systems in SF patmpowers@gmail.com - 2016-05-07 14:40 -0700
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| From | michael <me@here.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-01 00:26 -0500 |
| Subject | Creative Political Systems in SF |
| Message-ID | <u64bibldgtp9bbqtjp5eajbv1sqb83qbuj@4ax.com> |
I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet, facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites. Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit. Facebook in particular is completely choked with it. Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star Planet by H. Beam Piper. The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off scott free. All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it coming." This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to how our society would be different if this was implemented here. Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF that might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this election cycle?
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| From | Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-01 08:01 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <ddabibp7saq6664lehibjfv98u7h2elrrd@jwbrown.co.uk> |
| In reply to | #439256 |
On Sun, 01 May 2016 00:26:05 -0500, michael <me@here.com> wrote: >I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been >happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet, >facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites. > >Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked >at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit. >Facebook in particular is completely choked with it. > >Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made >me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star >Planet by H. Beam Piper. > >The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing >politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off >scott free. All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it >coming." This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to >how our society would be different if this was implemented here. > >Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF >that might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this >election cycle? Sheckley: Ticket to Tranai -- Jerry Brown A cat may look at a king (but probably won't bother)
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| From | Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-01 21:29 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20160501a@crcomp.net> |
| In reply to | #439262 |
Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> wrote: > On Sun, 01 May 2016 00:26:05 -0500, michael <me@here.com> wrote: > >>I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been >>happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet, >>facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites. >> >>Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked >>at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit. >>Facebook in particular is completely choked with it. >> >>Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made >>me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star >>Planet by H. Beam Piper. >> >>The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing >>politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off >>scott free. All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it >>coming." This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to >>how our society would be different if this was implemented here. >> >>Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF >>that might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this >>election cycle? > > Sheckley: Ticket to Tranai _Ticket_ offers a practical solution to vexing politicians - off with their heads. Decapitation by majority vote perhaps offers a more just solution. Decapitation by majority keeps a running total of votes to decapitate. Just as soon as the votes reach a majority !!BOOM!! off with the head. Citizens can rescind their vote at any time prior to decapitation when a citizen has a change of heart. Rescinded votes can later be recast and so on. How to improve the flip side of the coin, whereby the Supreme President kills with impunity, takes more thought. A kill limit might make things more fair. With a kill limit the President can only kill one person per hour or something. -- Don Kuenz KB7RPU
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| From | Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-01 14:55 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <3aa009ca-1802-497d-af41-7a56285d31eb@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #439318 |
On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:32:53 PM UTC-4, Don Kuenz wrote: > Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> wrote: > > On Sun, 01 May 2016 00:26:05 -0500, michael <me@here.com> wrote: > > > >>I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been > >>happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet, > >>facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites. > >> > >>Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked > >>at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit. > >>Facebook in particular is completely choked with it. > >> > >>Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made > >>me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star > >>Planet by H. Beam Piper. > >> > >>The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing > >>politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off > >>scott free. All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it > >>coming." This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to > >>how our society would be different if this was implemented here. > >> > >>Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF > >>that might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this > >>election cycle? > > > > Sheckley: Ticket to Tranai > > _Ticket_ offers a practical solution to vexing politicians - off with > their heads. Decapitation by majority vote perhaps offers a more just > solution. > > Decapitation by majority keeps a running total of votes to decapitate. > Just as soon as the votes reach a majority !!BOOM!! off with the head. > Citizens can rescind their vote at any time prior to decapitation when > a citizen has a change of heart. Rescinded votes can later be recast and > so on. > > How to improve the flip side of the coin, whereby the Supreme President > kills with impunity, takes more thought. A kill limit might make things > more fair. With a kill limit the President can only kill one person per > hour or something. > > -- > Don Kuenz KB7RPU Many wouldn't want to live in L Neil Smith's North American Confederacy fron "The Probability Broach" and its sequels. The representation system in the Continental Congress is interesting, though. Delegates vote on measures, then the votes are weighted depending on how many proxies have been electronically assigned to each delegate by the citizens. Given the advances in internet tech since the novel was published, 38 years ago, we might be able to replicate a system to do this now. Making it secure would probably be the toughest problem. Kevin R
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| From | patmpowers@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-01 15:20 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <a17fee1e-a856-411a-af49-b18347d698e0@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #439321 |
On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:55:57 PM UTC-4, Kevrob wrote: > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:32:53 PM UTC-4, Don Kuenz wrote: > > Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> wrote: > > > On Sun, 01 May 2016 00:26:05 -0500, michael <me@here.com> wrote: > > > > > >>I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been > > >>happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet, > > >>facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites. > > >> > > >>Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked > > >>at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit. > > >>Facebook in particular is completely choked with it. > > >> > > >>Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made > > >>me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star > > >>Planet by H. Beam Piper. > > >> > > >>The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing > > >>politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off > > >>scott free. All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it > > >>coming." This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to > > >>how our society would be different if this was implemented here. > > >> > > >>Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF > > >>that might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this > > >>election cycle? > > > > > > Sheckley: Ticket to Tranai > > > > _Ticket_ offers a practical solution to vexing politicians - off with > > their heads. Decapitation by majority vote perhaps offers a more just > > solution. > > > > Decapitation by majority keeps a running total of votes to decapitate. > > Just as soon as the votes reach a majority !!BOOM!! off with the head. > > Citizens can rescind their vote at any time prior to decapitation when > > a citizen has a change of heart. Rescinded votes can later be recast and > > so on. > > > > How to improve the flip side of the coin, whereby the Supreme President > > kills with impunity, takes more thought. A kill limit might make things > > more fair. With a kill limit the President can only kill one person per > > hour or something. > > > > -- > > Don Kuenz KB7RPU > > Many wouldn't want to live in L Neil Smith's North American > Confederacy fron "The Probability Broach" and its sequels. > The representation system in the Continental Congress is > interesting, though. Delegates vote on measures, then the > votes are weighted depending on how many proxies have > been electronically assigned to each delegate by the citizens. > > Given the advances in internet tech since the novel was > published, 38 years ago, we might be able to replicate > a system to do this now. Making it secure would probably > be the toughest problem. > > Kevin R That seems like quite a reasonable idea. The geographic representation system is inferior, obsolete, and inevitably produces pork. Even dove Sanders got military pork for Vermont. He had to. It's his job. Why shouldn't I give my vote to whomever in Congress best represents me? Making it as secure as the current system would be easy. It really might work.
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| From | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-01 20:57 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.31907011a25a64cd98a151@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #439327 |
In article <a17fee1e-a856-411a-af49-b18347d698e0@googlegroups.com>, patmpowers@gmail.com says... > > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:55:57 PM UTC-4, Kevrob wrote: > > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:32:53 PM UTC-4, Don Kuenz wrote: > > > Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> wrote: > > > > On Sun, 01 May 2016 00:26:05 -0500, michael <me@here.com> wrote: > > > > > > > >>I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been > > > >>happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet, > > > >>facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites. > > > >> > > > >>Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked > > > >>at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit. > > > >>Facebook in particular is completely choked with it. > > > >> > > > >>Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made > > > >>me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star > > > >>Planet by H. Beam Piper. > > > >> > > > >>The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing > > > >>politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off > > > >>scott free. All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it > > > >>coming." This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to > > > >>how our society would be different if this was implemented here. > > > >> > > > >>Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF > > > >>that might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this > > > >>election cycle? > > > > > > > > Sheckley: Ticket to Tranai > > > > > > _Ticket_ offers a practical solution to vexing politicians - off with > > > their heads. Decapitation by majority vote perhaps offers a more just > > > solution. > > > > > > Decapitation by majority keeps a running total of votes to decapitate. > > > Just as soon as the votes reach a majority !!BOOM!! off with the head. > > > Citizens can rescind their vote at any time prior to decapitation when > > > a citizen has a change of heart. Rescinded votes can later be recast and > > > so on. > > > > > > How to improve the flip side of the coin, whereby the Supreme President > > > kills with impunity, takes more thought. A kill limit might make things > > > more fair. With a kill limit the President can only kill one person per > > > hour or something. > > > > > > -- > > > Don Kuenz KB7RPU > > > > Many wouldn't want to live in L Neil Smith's North American > > Confederacy fron "The Probability Broach" and its sequels. > > The representation system in the Continental Congress is > > interesting, though. Delegates vote on measures, then the > > votes are weighted depending on how many proxies have > > been electronically assigned to each delegate by the citizens. > > > > Given the advances in internet tech since the novel was > > published, 38 years ago, we might be able to replicate > > a system to do this now. Making it secure would probably > > be the toughest problem. > > > > Kevin R > > That seems like quite a reasonable idea. The geographic representation system is inferior, obsolete, and inevitably produces pork. Even dove Sanders got military pork for Vermont. He had to. It's his job. Why shouldn't I give my vote to whomever in Congress best represents me? > > Making it as secure as the current system would be easy. It really might work. A problem with any system needs to deal with is the urban vs rural issue--laws that make perfect sense for somebody living in a slum in New York may make no sense at all for a farmer in Iowa and vice versa. However the slum dwellers, collectively, are a much larger voting block even though they make a far less significant contribution to the survival of society.
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| From | Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-01 19:11 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <9af2cdc6-e723-46dc-a368-5dcecd4e1646@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #439365 |
On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 8:57:45 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <a17fee1e-a856-411a-af49-b18347d698e0@googlegroups.com>,
> patmpowers@gmail.com says...
> >
> > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:55:57 PM UTC-4, Kevrob wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:32:53 PM UTC-4, Don Kuenz wrote:
> > > > Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> > > > > On Sun, 01 May 2016 00:26:05 -0500, michael <me@here.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >>I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been
> > > > >>happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet,
> > > > >>facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked
> > > > >>at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit.
> > > > >>Facebook in particular is completely choked with it.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made
> > > > >>me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star
> > > > >>Planet by H. Beam Piper.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing
> > > > >>politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off
> > > > >>scott free. All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it
> > > > >>coming." This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to
> > > > >>how our society would be different if this was implemented here.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF
> > > > >>that might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this
> > > > >>election cycle?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sheckley: Ticket to Tranai
> > > >
> > > > _Ticket_ offers a practical solution to vexing politicians - off with
> > > > their heads. Decapitation by majority vote perhaps offers a more just
> > > > solution.
> > > >
> > > > Decapitation by majority keeps a running total of votes to decapitate.
> > > > Just as soon as the votes reach a majority !!BOOM!! off with the head.
> > > > Citizens can rescind their vote at any time prior to decapitation when
> > > > a citizen has a change of heart. Rescinded votes can later be recast and
> > > > so on.
> > > >
> > > > How to improve the flip side of the coin, whereby the Supreme President
> > > > kills with impunity, takes more thought. A kill limit might make things
> > > > more fair. With a kill limit the President can only kill one person per
> > > > hour or something.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Don Kuenz KB7RPU
> > >
> > > Many wouldn't want to live in L Neil Smith's North American
> > > Confederacy fron "The Probability Broach" and its sequels.
> > > The representation system in the Continental Congress is
> > > interesting, though. Delegates vote on measures, then the
> > > votes are weighted depending on how many proxies have
> > > been electronically assigned to each delegate by the citizens.
> > >
> > > Given the advances in internet tech since the novel was
> > > published, 38 years ago, we might be able to replicate
> > > a system to do this now. Making it secure would probably
> > > be the toughest problem.
> > >
> > > Kevin R
> >
> > That seems like quite a reasonable idea. The geographic representation system is inferior, obsolete, and inevitably produces pork. Even dove Sanders got military pork for Vermont. He had to. It's his job. Why shouldn't I give my vote to whomever in Congress best represents me?
> >
> > Making it as secure as the current system would be easy. It really might work.
>
> A problem with any system needs to deal with is the urban vs rural
> issue--laws that make perfect sense for somebody living in a slum in New
> York may make no sense at all for a farmer in Iowa and vice versa.
> However the slum dwellers, collectively, are a much larger voting block
> even though they make a far less significant contribution to the
> survival of society.
The reality is that "slum dwellers" - and by that I am assuming
you mean those who live in our center cities and who are, statistically
speaking, likelier to be members of racial and/or linguistic
minorities (blacks and Hispanics) - are demographic groups most
strongly tie to the current version of the Democratic party. If
you have ever been, as I have, a resident of one of those cities
who supports a different party, you might welcome the chance to be
represented by someone who more nearly agrees with you.
I live in a district that hasn't elected a Republican since 1981,
and that one-termer was replaced by a Dem two years later. The
district I lived in in Milwaukee had a Democratic congressman
for 61 straight years. My neighborhood was redistricted, and
the district it was placed in has been Democratic 6 years
longer. Much of this is due to gerrymandering, though not all
of it. None of the 25%, 30%, or 40% of the people who voted for
anybody but the donkey candidate had any practical representation
of _their views_ for a lifetime. This is where proportional
representation or other alternatives to first-past-the-post
elections are superior.
A proxy voting system could be restricted to a particular state,
or even to districts, but we'd have to make the Federal House
much larger. Smith's system seems to be unicameral, but his
Congress is severely part-time, only convening in emergencies.
Having our modern legislatures restrict themselves like
that would require the greatest suspension of disbelief.
Kevin R
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| From | patmpowers@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-01 19:47 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <98014369-9faa-4418-a781-aa247d505ad4@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #439381 |
On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 10:11:41 PM UTC-4, Kevrob wrote: > > A proxy voting system could be restricted to a particular state, > or even to districts, but we'd have to make the Federal House > much larger. Why? > Smith's system seems to be unicameral, but his > Congress is severely part-time, only convening in emergencies. > That seems silly. If I'm gonna give some schmuck my proxy, he better be on the job alla time. I dunno what Smith's system is, but it's an attractive idea. I sure as heck wouldn't give my proxy to my local Congressman. It would give me and many others representation of my beliefs, and avoid the dreadful prospect of having ordinary people vote directly for or against bills. What's not to like? If you did that in our current system 99% of the time it would make no difference, but if the people really wanted something they would get it. That 1% matters a lot.
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| From | Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-01 21:06 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <9b183a47-556f-4228-9eea-9642ff570666@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #439387 |
On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 10:47:42 PM UTC-4, patmp...@gmail.com wrote: > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 10:11:41 PM UTC-4, Kevrob wrote: > > > > A proxy voting system could be restricted to a particular state, > > or even to districts, but we'd have to make the Federal House > > much larger. > > Why? > > > Smith's system seems to be unicameral, but his > > Congress is severely part-time, only convening in emergencies. > > > > That seems silly. If I'm gonna give some schmuck my proxy, he better be on the job alla time. > > I dunno what Smith's system is, but it's an attractive idea. I sure as heck wouldn't give my proxy to my local Congressman. It would give me and many others representation of my beliefs, and avoid the dreadful prospect of having ordinary people vote directly for or against bills. What's not to like? > > If you did that in our current system 99% of the time it would make no difference, but if the people really wanted something they would get it. That 1% matters a lot. Google Books has a preview. The chapter explaining how Gallatinist Representative Participatory Democracy works is here: http://preview.tinyurl.com/GRPD-Congress OR http://tinyurl.com/GRPD-Congress Which is: https://books.google.com/books?id=bNQjCvWeLuUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=probability+broach&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBiqXitLrMAhVLGB4KHfBoA1kQuwUIHjAA#v=onepage&q=probability%20broach&f=false Go to page 213. A citizen might attend as a delegate and represent only himself, though he might bring proxies of hundreds, thousands or more to the festivities. Make a good speech on the floor, and those watching can add their proxies to your total. Those who don't like what you said can fire you on the spot. Kevin R
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| From | Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-03 08:32 +0800 |
| Message-ID | <doq9t1Fu3cgU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #439396 |
On 2/05/2016 12:06 PM, Kevrob wrote: > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 10:47:42 PM UTC-4, patmp...@gmail.com wrote: >> On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 10:11:41 PM UTC-4, Kevrob wrote: >>> >>> A proxy voting system could be restricted to a particular state, >>> or even to districts, but we'd have to make the Federal House >>> much larger. >> >> Why? >> >>> Smith's system seems to be unicameral, but his >>> Congress is severely part-time, only convening in emergencies. >>> >> >> That seems silly. If I'm gonna give some schmuck my proxy, he better be on the job alla time. >> >> I dunno what Smith's system is, but it's an attractive idea. I sure as heck wouldn't give my proxy to my local Congressman. It would give me and many others representation of my beliefs, and avoid the dreadful prospect of having ordinary people vote directly for or against bills. What's not to like? >> >> If you did that in our current system 99% of the time it would make no difference, but if the people really wanted something they would get it. That 1% matters a lot. > > Google Books has a preview. The chapter explaining how > Gallatinist Representative Participatory Democracy works > is here: http://preview.tinyurl.com/GRPD-Congress OR > > http://tinyurl.com/GRPD-Congress > > Which is: > > https://books.google.com/books?id=bNQjCvWeLuUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=probability+broach&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBiqXitLrMAhVLGB4KHfBoA1kQuwUIHjAA#v=onepage&q=probability%20broach&f=false > > Go to page 213. > > A citizen might attend as a delegate and represent only himself, > though he might bring proxies of hundreds, thousands or more > to the festivities. Make a good speech on the floor, and those > watching can add their proxies to your total. Those who don't > like what you said can fire you on the spot. Is this government by rhetoric? -- Robert B. born England a long time ago; Western Australia since 1972
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| From | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-02 06:33 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.3190f6ef2931646598a157@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #439387 |
In article <98014369-9faa-4418-a781-aa247d505ad4@googlegroups.com>, patmpowers@gmail.com says... > > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 10:11:41 PM UTC-4, Kevrob wrote: > > > > A proxy voting system could be restricted to a particular state, > > or even to districts, but we'd have to make the Federal House > > much larger. > > Why? > > > Smith's system seems to be unicameral, but his > > Congress is severely part-time, only convening in emergencies. > > > > That seems silly. If I'm gonna give some schmuck my proxy, he better > be on the job alla time. One of the problems with the current system is that Congress is in session far too long--idle hands find the devil's work. > > I dunno what Smith's system is, but it's an attractive idea. I sure as heck wouldn't give my proxy to my local Congressman. It would give me and many others representation of my beliefs, and avoid the dreadful prospect of having ordinary people vote directly for or against bills. What's not to like? > > If you did that in our current system 99% of the time it would make no difference, but if the people really wanted something they would get it. That 1% matters a lot.
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| From | Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-04 20:02 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.319457927d166659989942@news.kolumbus.fi> |
| In reply to | #439426 |
In article <MPG.3190f6ef2931646598a157@news.eternal-september.org>, j.clarke.873638@gmail.com says... > > In article <98014369-9faa-4418-a781-aa247d505ad4@googlegroups.com>, > patmpowers@gmail.com says... > > > > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 10:11:41 PM UTC-4, Kevrob wrote: > > > > > > A proxy voting system could be restricted to a particular state, > > > or even to districts, but we'd have to make the Federal House > > > much larger. > > > > Why? > > > > > Smith's system seems to be unicameral, but his > > > Congress is severely part-time, only convening in emergencies. > > > > > > > That seems silly. If I'm gonna give some schmuck my proxy, he better > > be on the job alla time. > > One of the problems with the current system is that Congress is in > session far too long--idle hands find the devil's work. One of the problems with the current system is that politics is a job. -- Juho Julkunen
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| From | patmpowers@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-01 20:48 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <a1849aac-339a-4538-8d5b-5b3c47a47ee8@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #439365 |
On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 8:57:45 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote: > > > That seems like quite a reasonable idea. The geographic representation system is inferior, obsolete, and inevitably produces pork. Even dove Sanders got military pork for Vermont. He had to. It's his job. Why shouldn't I give my vote to whomever in Congress best represents me? > > > > Making it as secure as the current system would be easy. It really might work. > > A problem with any system needs to deal with is the urban vs rural > issue--laws that make perfect sense for somebody living in a slum in New > York may make no sense at all for a farmer in Iowa and vice versa. > However the slum dwellers, collectively, are a much larger voting block > even though they make a far less significant contribution to the > survival of society. I don't see that any system is going to resolve this basic conflict automatically. I don't see why the proposed system would make either wholesome country folk or scurrilous slum dwellers any more powerful than they are now. One man one vote. It would allow people to negate gerrymandering, and give representation to everyone. If you are a wholesome country gentleman who due to adverse circumstances must reside in Scurriolus Slumm then you would be able to assign your proxy to Handsome Downhome Values Gent. And vice versa. You could live in Haarlem and assign your vote to David Duke. What's not to like?
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| From | "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-02 06:51 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.3190fb1d808613e98a158@news.eternal-september.org> |
| In reply to | #439393 |
In article <a1849aac-339a-4538-8d5b-5b3c47a47ee8@googlegroups.com>, patmpowers@gmail.com says... > > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 8:57:45 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote: > > > > > That seems like quite a reasonable idea. The geographic representation system is inferior, obsolete, and inevitably produces pork. Even dove Sanders got military pork for Vermont. He had to. It's his job. Why shouldn't I give my vote to whomever in Congress best represents me? > > > > > > Making it as secure as the current system would be easy. It really might work. > > > > A problem with any system needs to deal with is the urban vs rural > > issue--laws that make perfect sense for somebody living in a slum in New > > York may make no sense at all for a farmer in Iowa and vice versa. > > However the slum dwellers, collectively, are a much larger voting block > > even though they make a far less significant contribution to the > > survival of society. > > I don't see that any system is going to resolve this basic conflict automatically. > > I don't see why the proposed system would make either wholesome country folk or scurrilous slum dwellers any more powerful than they are now. One man one vote. It would allow people to negate gerrymandering, and give representation to everyone. > > If you are a wholesome country gentleman who due to adverse circumstances must reside in Scurriolus Slumm then you would be able to assign your proxy to Handsome Downhome Values Gent. And vice versa. You could live in Haarlem and assign your vote to David Duke. What's not to like? It's not a matter of values. It's a matter of people living where there are 70,000 per square mile have different needs from people living where there are 10 per square mile. But there are a lot more people living where there are 70,000 per square mile so the voices of the people living 10 per square mile get drowned out.
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| From | Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-03 08:35 +0800 |
| Message-ID | <doqa39Fu489U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #439393 |
On 2/05/2016 11:48 AM, patmpowers@gmail.com wrote: > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 8:57:45 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote: >> >>> That seems like quite a reasonable idea. The geographic representation system is inferior, obsolete, and inevitably produces pork. Even dove Sanders got military pork for Vermont. He had to. It's his job. Why shouldn't I give my vote to whomever in Congress best represents me? >>> >>> Making it as secure as the current system would be easy. It really might work. >> >> A problem with any system needs to deal with is the urban vs rural >> issue--laws that make perfect sense for somebody living in a slum in New >> York may make no sense at all for a farmer in Iowa and vice versa. >> However the slum dwellers, collectively, are a much larger voting block >> even though they make a far less significant contribution to the >> survival of society. > > I don't see that any system is going to resolve this basic conflict automatically. > > I don't see why the proposed system would make either wholesome country folk or scurrilous slum dwellers any more powerful than they are now. One man one vote. It would allow people to negate gerrymandering, and give representation to everyone. > > If you are a wholesome country gentleman who due to adverse circumstances must reside in Scurriolus Slumm then you would be able to assign your proxy to Handsome Downhome Values Gent. And vice versa. You could live in Haarlem and assign your vote to David Duke. What's not to like? > I think you need some way of getting local issues across. Wholesome country gentleman might share many of my views, but have no sympathy with my objection to the superhighway through the one remaining stretch of pristine forest near me. -- Robert B. who actually lives less than 3km from the city centre
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| From | Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-04 20:14 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <MPG.31945a77b94304c2989943@news.kolumbus.fi> |
| In reply to | #439365 |
In article <MPG.31907011a25a64cd98a151@news.eternal-september.org>, j.clarke.873638@gmail.com says... > > In article <a17fee1e-a856-411a-af49-b18347d698e0@googlegroups.com>, > patmpowers@gmail.com says... > > > > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:55:57 PM UTC-4, Kevrob wrote: > > > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:32:53 PM UTC-4, Don Kuenz wrote: > > > > Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 01 May 2016 00:26:05 -0500, michael <me@here.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been > > > > >>happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet, > > > > >>facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites. > > > > >> > > > > >>Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked > > > > >>at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit. > > > > >>Facebook in particular is completely choked with it. > > > > >> > > > > >>Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made > > > > >>me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star > > > > >>Planet by H. Beam Piper. > > > > >> > > > > >>The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing > > > > >>politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off > > > > >>scott free. All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it > > > > >>coming." This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to > > > > >>how our society would be different if this was implemented here. > > > > >> > > > > >>Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from SF > > > > >>that might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this > > > > >>election cycle? > > > > > > > > > > Sheckley: Ticket to Tranai > > > > > > > > _Ticket_ offers a practical solution to vexing politicians - off with > > > > their heads. Decapitation by majority vote perhaps offers a more just > > > > solution. > > > > > > > > Decapitation by majority keeps a running total of votes to decapitate. > > > > Just as soon as the votes reach a majority !!BOOM!! off with the head. > > > > Citizens can rescind their vote at any time prior to decapitation when > > > > a citizen has a change of heart. Rescinded votes can later be recast and > > > > so on. > > > > > > > > How to improve the flip side of the coin, whereby the Supreme President > > > > kills with impunity, takes more thought. A kill limit might make things > > > > more fair. With a kill limit the President can only kill one person per > > > > hour or something. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Don Kuenz KB7RPU > > > > > > Many wouldn't want to live in L Neil Smith's North American > > > Confederacy fron "The Probability Broach" and its sequels. > > > The representation system in the Continental Congress is > > > interesting, though. Delegates vote on measures, then the > > > votes are weighted depending on how many proxies have > > > been electronically assigned to each delegate by the citizens. > > > > > > Given the advances in internet tech since the novel was > > > published, 38 years ago, we might be able to replicate > > > a system to do this now. Making it secure would probably > > > be the toughest problem. > > > > > > Kevin R > > > > That seems like quite a reasonable idea. The geographic representation system is inferior, obsolete, and inevitably produces pork. Even dove Sanders got military pork for Vermont. He had to. It's his job. Why shouldn't I give my vote to whomever in Congress best represents me? > > > > Making it as secure as the current system would be easy. It really might work. > > A problem with any system needs to deal with is the urban vs rural > issue--laws that make perfect sense for somebody living in a slum in New > York may make no sense at all for a farmer in Iowa and vice versa. > However the slum dwellers, collectively, are a much larger voting block > even though they make a far less significant contribution to the > survival of society. And yet the farmers in Iowa receive over a billion dollars a year in subsidies, largely on city dwellers' coin. That probably doesn't make a lot of sense to the people in the slums of New York, granted. It shouldn't make sense to anyone, except the farmers, of course; whether they actually grow anything or not. -- Juho Julkunen
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| From | Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-04 12:17 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ngdhlg$491$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #439556 |
In article <MPG.31945a77b94304c2989943@news.kolumbus.fi>, Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> wrote: > In article <MPG.31907011a25a64cd98a151@news.eternal-september.org>, > j.clarke.873638@gmail.com says... > > > > In article <a17fee1e-a856-411a-af49-b18347d698e0@googlegroups.com>, > > patmpowers@gmail.com says... > > > > > > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:55:57 PM UTC-4, Kevrob wrote: > > > > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:32:53 PM UTC-4, Don Kuenz wrote: > > > > > Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, 01 May 2016 00:26:05 -0500, michael <me@here.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been > > > > > >>happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet, > > > > > >>facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked > > > > > >>at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit. > > > > > >>Facebook in particular is completely choked with it. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made > > > > > >>me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star > > > > > >>Planet by H. Beam Piper. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing > > > > > >>politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off > > > > > >>scott free. All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it > > > > > >>coming." This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to > > > > > >>how our society would be different if this was implemented here. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from > > > > > >>SF > > > > > >>that might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this > > > > > >>election cycle? > > > > > > > > > > > > Sheckley: Ticket to Tranai > > > > > > > > > > _Ticket_ offers a practical solution to vexing politicians - off with > > > > > their heads. Decapitation by majority vote perhaps offers a more just > > > > > solution. > > > > > > > > > > Decapitation by majority keeps a running total of votes to > > > > > decapitate. > > > > > Just as soon as the votes reach a majority !!BOOM!! off with the > > > > > head. > > > > > Citizens can rescind their vote at any time prior to decapitation > > > > > when > > > > > a citizen has a change of heart. Rescinded votes can later be recast > > > > > and > > > > > so on. > > > > > > > > > > How to improve the flip side of the coin, whereby the Supreme > > > > > President > > > > > kills with impunity, takes more thought. A kill limit might make > > > > > things > > > > > more fair. With a kill limit the President can only kill one person > > > > > per > > > > > hour or something. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Don Kuenz KB7RPU > > > > > > > > Many wouldn't want to live in L Neil Smith's North American > > > > Confederacy fron "The Probability Broach" and its sequels. > > > > The representation system in the Continental Congress is > > > > interesting, though. Delegates vote on measures, then the > > > > votes are weighted depending on how many proxies have > > > > been electronically assigned to each delegate by the citizens. > > > > > > > > Given the advances in internet tech since the novel was > > > > published, 38 years ago, we might be able to replicate > > > > a system to do this now. Making it secure would probably > > > > be the toughest problem. > > > > > > > > Kevin R > > > > > > That seems like quite a reasonable idea. The geographic representation > > > system is inferior, obsolete, and inevitably produces pork. Even dove > > > Sanders got military pork for Vermont. He had to. It's his job. Why > > > shouldn't I give my vote to whomever in Congress best represents me? > > > > > > Making it as secure as the current system would be easy. It really might > > > work. > > > > A problem with any system needs to deal with is the urban vs rural > > issue--laws that make perfect sense for somebody living in a slum in New > > York may make no sense at all for a farmer in Iowa and vice versa. > > However the slum dwellers, collectively, are a much larger voting block > > even though they make a far less significant contribution to the > > survival of society. > > And yet the farmers in Iowa receive over a billion dollars a year in > subsidies, largely on city dwellers' coin. Turn off the farm subsidies in Iowa (or wherever else they're currently going) and watch one of two things happen: A) Food prices in the cities whining about the subsidies will go into orbit. B) Massive numbers of dead bodies will clog the streets of those cities as people starve to death. Or both. (Mostly likely both) -- Brought to you by the letter Q and the number .357 Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.
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| From | Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-04 12:30 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <866deb64-d119-44ea-acd7-eca05a378135@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #439568 |
On Wednesday, May 4, 2016 at 3:17:25 PM UTC-4, Don Bruder wrote: > In article <MPG.31945a77b94304c2989943@news.kolumbus.fi>, > Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > In article <MPG.31907011a25a64cd98a151@news.eternal-september.org>, > > j.clarke.873638@gmail.com says... > > > > > > In article <a17fee1e-a856-411a-af49-b18347d698e0@googlegroups.com>, > > > patmpowers@gmail.com says... > > > > > > > > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:55:57 PM UTC-4, Kevrob wrote: > > > > > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:32:53 PM UTC-4, Don Kuenz wrote: > > > > > > Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> wrote: > > > > > > > On Sun, 01 May 2016 00:26:05 -0500, michael <me@here.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been > > > > > > >>happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet, > > > > > > >>facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked > > > > > > >>at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit. > > > > > > >>Facebook in particular is completely choked with it. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made > > > > > > >>me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star > > > > > > >>Planet by H. Beam Piper. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing > > > > > > >>politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off > > > > > > >>scott free. All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it > > > > > > >>coming." This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to > > > > > > >>how our society would be different if this was implemented here. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from > > > > > > >>SF > > > > > > >>that might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this > > > > > > >>election cycle? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sheckley: Ticket to Tranai > > > > > > > > > > > > _Ticket_ offers a practical solution to vexing politicians - off with > > > > > > their heads. Decapitation by majority vote perhaps offers a more just > > > > > > solution. > > > > > > > > > > > > Decapitation by majority keeps a running total of votes to > > > > > > decapitate. > > > > > > Just as soon as the votes reach a majority !!BOOM!! off with the > > > > > > head. > > > > > > Citizens can rescind their vote at any time prior to decapitation > > > > > > when > > > > > > a citizen has a change of heart. Rescinded votes can later be recast > > > > > > and > > > > > > so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > How to improve the flip side of the coin, whereby the Supreme > > > > > > President > > > > > > kills with impunity, takes more thought. A kill limit might make > > > > > > things > > > > > > more fair. With a kill limit the President can only kill one person > > > > > > per > > > > > > hour or something. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Don Kuenz KB7RPU > > > > > > > > > > Many wouldn't want to live in L Neil Smith's North American > > > > > Confederacy fron "The Probability Broach" and its sequels. > > > > > The representation system in the Continental Congress is > > > > > interesting, though. Delegates vote on measures, then the > > > > > votes are weighted depending on how many proxies have > > > > > been electronically assigned to each delegate by the citizens. > > > > > > > > > > Given the advances in internet tech since the novel was > > > > > published, 38 years ago, we might be able to replicate > > > > > a system to do this now. Making it secure would probably > > > > > be the toughest problem. > > > > > > > > > > Kevin R > > > > > > > > That seems like quite a reasonable idea. The geographic representation > > > > system is inferior, obsolete, and inevitably produces pork. Even dove > > > > Sanders got military pork for Vermont. He had to. It's his job. Why > > > > shouldn't I give my vote to whomever in Congress best represents me? > > > > > > > > Making it as secure as the current system would be easy. It really might > > > > work. > > > > > > A problem with any system needs to deal with is the urban vs rural > > > issue--laws that make perfect sense for somebody living in a slum in New > > > York may make no sense at all for a farmer in Iowa and vice versa. > > > However the slum dwellers, collectively, are a much larger voting block > > > even though they make a far less significant contribution to the > > > survival of society. > > > > And yet the farmers in Iowa receive over a billion dollars a year in > > subsidies, largely on city dwellers' coin. > > Turn off the farm subsidies in Iowa (or wherever else they're currently > going) and watch one of two things happen: A) Food prices in the cities > whining about the subsidies will go into orbit. B) Massive numbers of > dead bodies will clog the streets of those cities as people starve to > death. Or both. (Mostly likely both) Paying farmers to NOT grow food (which is what the subsidies do) prevents hunger? How does that work, exactly? pt
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-04 20:03 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <bAsWy.32675$4s3.19207@fx43.iad> |
| In reply to | #439569 |
Peter Trei <petertrei@gmail.com> writes: >On Wednesday, May 4, 2016 at 3:17:25 PM UTC-4, Don Bruder wrote: >> > And yet the farmers in Iowa receive over a billion dollars a year in >> > subsidies, largely on city dwellers' coin. >> >> Turn off the farm subsidies in Iowa (or wherever else they're currently >> going) and watch one of two things happen: A) Food prices in the cities >> whining about the subsidies will go into orbit. B) Massive numbers of >> dead bodies will clog the streets of those cities as people starve to >> death. Or both. (Mostly likely both) > >Paying farmers to NOT grow food (which is what the subsidies do) prevents >hunger? > >How does that work, exactly? Mr. Bruder doesn't appear to understand that the bulk of those subsidies end up going to ADM and Cargill, not to the small family farmer (of which there are only a handful left in Iowa anyway), and in the old days, when they went to a small farmer, it was to artificially keep commodity prices high by controlling production.
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| From | Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-05-04 13:57 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <2af992b7-176d-4479-aeb1-a60ce7c43439@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #439569 |
On Wednesday, May 4, 2016 at 3:30:47 PM UTC-4, Peter Trei wrote: > On Wednesday, May 4, 2016 at 3:17:25 PM UTC-4, Don Bruder wrote: > > In article <MPG.31945a77b94304c2989943@news.kolumbus.fi>, > > Juho Julkunen <giaotanj@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > In article <MPG.31907011a25a64cd98a151@news.eternal-september.org>, > > > j.clarke.873638@gmail.com says... > > > > > > > > In article <a17fee1e-a856-411a-af49-b18347d698e0@googlegroups.com>, > > > > patmpowers@gmail.com says... > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:55:57 PM UTC-4, Kevrob wrote: > > > > > > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:32:53 PM UTC-4, Don Kuenz wrote: > > > > > > > Jerry Brown <jerry@jwbrown.co.uk.invalid> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sun, 01 May 2016 00:26:05 -0500, michael <me@here.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>I've spent a few hours this evening catching up on what's been > > > > > > > >>happening in a few online forums that I frequent, including usenet, > > > > > > > >>facebook, and a couple of interest-specific websites. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>Much to my dismay, just about every one of the places I've looked > > > > > > > >>at this evening has been all but overrun with political bullshit. > > > > > > > >>Facebook in particular is completely choked with it. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>Being clubbed in the face with everyone's political opinions made > > > > > > > >>me nostalgic for one of my favorite bits of vintage SF - Lone Star > > > > > > > >>Planet by H. Beam Piper. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>The story is set on the planet of New Texas, where any practicing > > > > > > > >>politician can be assassinated at will, and the killer can get off > > > > > > > >>scott free. All he has to do is prove that the politician "had it > > > > > > > >>coming." This led me to an hour or so of wistful musing as to > > > > > > > >>how our society would be different if this was implemented here. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>Does anyone else have a similar example of a political system from > > > > > > > >>SF > > > > > > > >>that might prove entertaining while we endure the rest of this > > > > > > > >>election cycle? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sheckley: Ticket to Tranai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _Ticket_ offers a practical solution to vexing politicians - off with > > > > > > > their heads. Decapitation by majority vote perhaps offers a more just > > > > > > > solution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Decapitation by majority keeps a running total of votes to > > > > > > > decapitate. > > > > > > > Just as soon as the votes reach a majority !!BOOM!! off with the > > > > > > > head. > > > > > > > Citizens can rescind their vote at any time prior to decapitation > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > a citizen has a change of heart. Rescinded votes can later be recast > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How to improve the flip side of the coin, whereby the Supreme > > > > > > > President > > > > > > > kills with impunity, takes more thought. A kill limit might make > > > > > > > things > > > > > > > more fair. With a kill limit the President can only kill one person > > > > > > > per > > > > > > > hour or something. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Don Kuenz KB7RPU > > > > > > > > > > > > Many wouldn't want to live in L Neil Smith's North American > > > > > > Confederacy fron "The Probability Broach" and its sequels. > > > > > > The representation system in the Continental Congress is > > > > > > interesting, though. Delegates vote on measures, then the > > > > > > votes are weighted depending on how many proxies have > > > > > > been electronically assigned to each delegate by the citizens. > > > > > > > > > > > > Given the advances in internet tech since the novel was > > > > > > published, 38 years ago, we might be able to replicate > > > > > > a system to do this now. Making it secure would probably > > > > > > be the toughest problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kevin R > > > > > > > > > > That seems like quite a reasonable idea. The geographic representation > > > > > system is inferior, obsolete, and inevitably produces pork. Even dove > > > > > Sanders got military pork for Vermont. He had to. It's his job. Why > > > > > shouldn't I give my vote to whomever in Congress best represents me? > > > > > > > > > > Making it as secure as the current system would be easy. It really might > > > > > work. > > > > > > > > A problem with any system needs to deal with is the urban vs rural > > > > issue--laws that make perfect sense for somebody living in a slum in New > > > > York may make no sense at all for a farmer in Iowa and vice versa. > > > > However the slum dwellers, collectively, are a much larger voting block > > > > even though they make a far less significant contribution to the > > > > survival of society. > > > > > > And yet the farmers in Iowa receive over a billion dollars a year in > > > subsidies, largely on city dwellers' coin. > > > > Turn off the farm subsidies in Iowa (or wherever else they're currently > > going) and watch one of two things happen: A) Food prices in the cities > > whining about the subsidies will go into orbit. B) Massive numbers of > > dead bodies will clog the streets of those cities as people starve to > > death. Or both. (Mostly likely both) > > Paying farmers to NOT grow food (which is what the subsidies do) prevents > hunger? > > How does that work, exactly? > > pt It isn't just subsidies to cut back production. USDA has some arcane rules. SCOTUS struck down one weird one, recently: http://reason.com/archives/2015/09/08/hands-off-the-raisins [quote] Two months later, in a decision so obvious as to be almost anticlimactic, the Hornes emerged triumphant on all counts. "The reserve requirement imposed by the Raisin Committee is a clear physical taking," wrote Chief Justice John Roberts for an 8-1 majority. "Actual raisins are transferred from the growers to the Government. Title to the raisins passes to the Raisin Committee." It was a textbook example of a government taking that triggers the Fifth Amendment. The Court was equally blunt in dismissing the 9th Circuit's half-baked claim that personal property deserves less constitutional respect than real property. "The Government has a categorical duty to pay just compensation when it takes your car, just as when it takes your home," Roberts observed. [quote] -Reason magazine article by Damon Root, Oct 2015 issue. Quotas, allotments, marketing boards that give us the "Got Milk" and "Beef: It's what's for dinner" ads. Etc. Kevin R
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