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Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control

From vallor <vallor@cultnix.org>
Newsgroups misc.phone.mobile.iphone, comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control
Date 2025-03-27 02:25 +0000
Message-ID <m4jr9kF3im2U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References <mxSEP.104219$541.37800@fx47.iad> <vs1q6r$2jk05$1@dont-email.me> <b2t8uj1mt9jkrvhhqrbo3i1909bmn908g9@4ax.com> <xxxxxx-1B0077.19052426032025@news.supernews.com>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On Wed, 26 Mar 2025 19:05:24 -0400, Johnny LaRue <xxxxxx@yyyyyy.zzz> wrote
in <xxxxxx-1B0077.19052426032025@news.supernews.com>:

> In article <b2t8uj1mt9jkrvhhqrbo3i1909bmn908g9@4ax.com>,
>  Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> You really overstepped, with this one, Winblows is far more advanced
>> than anything Apple actually created in their OS, they borrowed BSD's
>> brain for the hard parts.   The Apple-specific features of macOS are
>> fairly laughable, in truth, although I can understand some people just
>> prefer the platform, flushing money down the toilet to get it.
> 
> So what then is Linux?   That also "borrowed Unix's brain for the hard
> parts".

Actually, there's been some cross-pollenation between BSD and Linux,
most notably with the networking.  Linux then took off, and left
BSD in the dust -- they are still trying to catch up.

> The GUIs that Linux has come up with ARE laughable.   Mostly bad copies
> of Windows.   MacOS GUI is totally unique.

That turns out not to be the case:  there are some fine desktop
environments for Linux, which are getting easier and easier to
configure for a user's needs.

Here is my desktop:

https://imgur.com/tvA68Ne

And before you complain about the taskbar:  it is the natural progression
from NeXTStep and Cairo, the underpinnings of the Mac GUI.  Specifically:
GNUStep and Cairo (on Linux).  The dock at the bottom there is Cairo dock.
I started running it to make sure it was stable enough to put on Mrs.
vallor's new Linux workstation, so she would have an experience similar
to her Mac Studio.

(Some people go so far as to use a window manager theme that has the
buttons on the left.  I think that's crazy.)

The rest of the desktop that you see is xfce4, which is lightweight
and gets the job done.  I'm not as enamored by the pretty blinking
lights as you might be, YMMV.
 
> Windows is an extremely primitive OS.   In fact, it is the only fully
> proprietary OS remaining.   Everything else is Unix-based.   Linux,
> Android, iOS, MacOS, Apple watches.   Linux/Unix even runs on
> mainframes.

I'm not sure why someone would have a problem with that:  it is a
testament to the versatility of Linux.  That's why it seems to be
running everywhere.  It is a trusty OS.

And everyone kept complaining that Linux was "hard to use", despite
the pain one goes through to maintain Apples and Windows machines.
Well, fine:  now there are Chromebooks.

> Windows runs only on Windows PC.   Nothing else.  Because it is neither
> portable nor scalable.   Unix was both from the very beginning.   Look
> how long it has taken to get Windows running on Arm.  And it is still
> not perfect.
> 
> But MacOS has gone thru 3 processor changes.  PPC to Intel to Arm.   All
> very well done.   Because Unix is scalable and portable.

Linux has support for 22 architectures by my count.  I don't
see this as a disadvantage.

> 
> And you flush money down the toilet to buy a Windows PC and then flush
> time down the toilet installing Linux.  What is your point?

What time?  Installing Linux doesn't have to be a trial -- in fact,
you can do what I did, and buy a system with Linux pre-installed.
I then went ahead and installed a different distribution on my System76
workstation -- Linux Mint -- which only took a few minutes.

Mrs. vallor's workstation took a minute or two longer, because I shrunk
the Windows partition on the system down to a bare minimum before
installing Linux Mint there, also.

And another thing:  about Joel's desire for 32G of memory.  If he has
8 cores, and gets into building software with parallel builds, he's
going to want at least 4G/core -- which would be 32G.  I have 32 cores w/
hyperthreading, for a total of 64 threads, so it makes sense that I
have a little over 256G of memory.  Again, YMMV.

And then, there's this:  besides Linux being pleasant to use
and configure, it has sound routing capabilities that I
couldn't duplicate on Windows.  Though controversial in some
circles, pulseaudio does a fine job of putting the sounds I want
where I want them.  This boosts the production quality of streams.  For
example -- when I set it up -- my streams don't have Discord
notification beeps playing on them.

Of course, this is light years ahead of your Mac, because there's
no gaming on Macs to speak of...games are made for PC Windows,
and Linux supports those through subsystems like wine and proton.
Sometimes, the "Windows" game runs _better_ on Linux, thanks to
tricks such as DXVK, which uses Vulkan to service the DX11 and DX12
ABIs.

Penultimately, I wanted to mention something that I've seen in these
advocacy groups, and that is criticizing the Linux of 5- or 10-years ago
as if it were still like that.  That happens when people try Linux, don't
like it, and forever affix in their minds that Linux isn't continuously
advancing.  For example, take printing:  that use to be terrible to
set up on Linux.  Today, it uses CUPS, the same print subsystem used
by Macs -- and it is maintained by Apple.

And finally, it's worth noting that the lines between Linux and Windows
have blurred a bit, because Linux is now a subsystem in Windows.  Before,
Microsoft was trying to emulate the Linux ABI -- then they punted, and
WSL2 is a Linux kernel running as a guest in HyperV.  So in
conclusion:  Linux is useful, friendly, and everywhere -- even
in Microsoft Windows.

-- 
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
   OS: Linux 6.14.0 Release: Mint 22.1 Mem: 258G
   "Remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else."

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Thread

Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-18 18:12 -0400
  Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-20 09:14 -0700
    Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-20 12:23 -0400
      Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-20 13:44 -0400
    Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-20 13:43 -0400
      Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-20 19:50 +0000
        Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Mikey <Mikey.Smith@aol.invalid> - 2025-03-21 15:00 +0000
          Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2025-03-21 19:59 +0000
          Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-21 16:45 -0400
        Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-21 12:26 -0400
          Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-21 23:53 +0000
            Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-21 20:00 -0400
              Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Johnny LaRue <xxxxxx@yyyyyy.zzz> - 2025-03-21 20:27 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-22 00:45 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Johnny LaRue <xxxxxx@yyyyyy.zzz> - 2025-03-25 19:57 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-21 21:49 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-21 22:29 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-22 16:29 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Johnny LaRue <xxxxxx@yyyyyy.zzz> - 2025-03-25 19:59 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Johnny LaRue <xxxxxx@yyyyyy.zzz> - 2025-03-25 20:14 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 20:29 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-26 01:59 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2025-03-22 04:54 -0500
              Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-22 09:22 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-22 19:16 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-26 07:40 +0000
      Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-20 14:26 -0700
        Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-20 17:58 -0400
          Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-20 15:52 -0700
            Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-20 20:48 -0400
              Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-21 12:31 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-03-21 16:47 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-21 13:00 -0400
            Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-21 12:29 -0400
              Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-21 12:40 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-21 15:56 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-21 22:27 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-22 16:36 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-22 14:04 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-22 17:52 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2025-03-22 19:18 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-22 19:23 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-22 19:17 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 08:18 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2025-03-23 12:21 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 14:00 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Adison Vohn Caterson <Adison@Caterson.invalid> - 2025-03-23 18:06 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 14:17 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Adison Vohn Caterson <Adison@Caterson.invalid> - 2025-03-23 18:22 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 14:35 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Adison Vohn Caterson <Adison@Caterson.invalid> - 2025-03-23 18:41 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 14:54 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Adison Vohn Caterson <Adison@Caterson.invalid> - 2025-03-23 19:11 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2025-03-23 21:05 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 14:22 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 17:31 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2025-03-23 22:34 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-24 08:53 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2025-03-24 13:39 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-24 10:48 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2025-03-24 19:59 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 17:47 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2025-03-24 23:12 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 19:36 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 14:42 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 18:57 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2025-03-24 23:20 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 19:38 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 17:46 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2025-03-25 00:59 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 18:17 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2025-03-25 01:30 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 21:58 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 19:44 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 22:52 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 20:16 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 23:24 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 20:40 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 23:45 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 20:48 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 00:02 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 21:10 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 00:26 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-04-09 18:40 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-04-09 11:51 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2025-04-10 10:07 +1200
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-04-09 18:16 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-04-10 19:48 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 21:08 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 18:14 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-24 19:29 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 17:46 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 21:09 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-25 06:24 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 02:31 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2025-03-23 12:20 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 14:13 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2025-03-23 15:39 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 15:52 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Adison Vohn Caterson <Adison@Caterson.invalid> - 2025-03-23 19:58 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 16:11 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Adison Vohn Caterson <Adison@Caterson.invalid> - 2025-03-23 22:12 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2025-03-23 16:02 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 16:09 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 20:25 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 16:34 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 14:43 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-03-24 09:09 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2025-03-24 20:10 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 18:33 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 14:51 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Adison Vohn Caterson <Adison@Caterson.invalid> - 2025-03-23 19:06 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-23 15:26 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Adison Vohn Caterson <Adison@Caterson.invalid> - 2025-03-23 19:33 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 14:44 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 19:11 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 17:47 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 21:11 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 18:13 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 21:57 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 19:43 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 22:54 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 20:15 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 23:22 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 20:36 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 23:43 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 20:49 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 00:09 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 21:11 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 00:29 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Rudy Canoza <rc@j.kone.invalid> - 2025-03-25 02:32 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 02:41 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-04-04 18:27 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-04-04 16:55 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-04-04 20:08 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-04-04 17:10 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-04-04 20:21 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-04-04 23:11 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-04-05 02:50 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-04-05 16:06 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-04-05 16:17 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Johnny LaRue <xxxxxx@yyyyyy.zzz> - 2025-04-05 20:42 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-04-06 07:42 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-06 08:07 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-04-06 15:44 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-06 12:46 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-04-06 15:59 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-04-06 13:11 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-04-07 08:57 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2025-04-05 15:49 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-04-05 16:16 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-06 01:26 +0000
                Re: πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆApple requires too much money and sacrifice of controlπŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆ πŸŒˆπŸ’πŸŒ»πŸŒΊπŸŒΉπŸŒ»πŸ’πŸŒ·πŸŒΊπŸŒˆJenπŸŒˆπŸ’πŸŒ»πŸŒΊπŸŒΉπŸŒ»πŸ’πŸŒ·πŸŒΊπŸŒˆ Dershmendenderer πŸ’πŸŒ»πŸŒΊπŸŒΉπŸŒ»πŸ’πŸŒ·πŸŒΊπŸΆη¬›πŸŒˆπŸ’πŸŒ»πŸŒΊπŸŒΉπŸŒ»πŸ’πŸŒ·πŸŒΊπŸŒˆ <root@127.0.0.1>  - 2025-04-06 03:18 +0000
                Re: πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆApple requires too much money and sacrifice of controlπŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆ vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-06 03:35 +0000
                Re: πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆApple requires too much money and sacrifice of controlπŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆ vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-04-06 04:31 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-22 19:17 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-03-23 03:15 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2025-03-23 18:01 +1300
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2025-03-23 18:08 +1300
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-03-23 05:37 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 14:45 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-22 23:33 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 14:46 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 19:13 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 17:47 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2025-03-25 00:52 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 17:59 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 21:48 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 19:43 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-24 22:28 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 19:44 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-25 08:43 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 08:48 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 08:12 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 04:20 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 18:48 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 14:54 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-25 17:24 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 20:33 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-25 18:03 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 21:19 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-26 07:40 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-26 08:36 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-26 20:15 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2025-03-27 10:05 +1300
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-26 17:43 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Johnny LaRue <xxxxxx@yyyyyy.zzz> - 2025-03-26 19:05 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-26 19:17 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-03-27 02:25 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control % <pursent100@gmail.com> - 2025-03-26 19:49 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2025-03-27 03:30 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-26 11:57 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-26 20:15 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-26 16:18 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-27 07:45 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-27 08:41 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-27 12:20 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2025-03-28 00:44 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-27 21:20 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-27 18:26 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-27 21:53 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-27 22:42 -0700
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-28 01:45 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-28 07:50 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2025-03-28 02:08 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-27 22:16 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-27 12:06 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-27 18:11 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2025-03-28 00:43 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-27 21:18 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-28 08:26 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-25 14:58 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 15:13 -0400
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-26 02:09 +0000
                Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-21 20:33 -0400
  Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Johnny LaRue <xxxxxx@yyyyyy.zzz> - 2025-03-25 00:00 -0400
    Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 00:06 -0400
      Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-03-24 21:09 -0700
        Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 00:25 -0400
      Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Johnny LaRue <xxxxxx@yyyyyy.zzz> - 2025-03-25 10:13 -0400
        Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 10:20 -0400
        Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-25 11:01 -0400
          Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-03-26 02:05 +0000
    Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-25 08:47 -0400
      Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Johnny LaRue <xxxxxx@yyyyyy.zzz> - 2025-03-25 10:35 -0400
        Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Joel <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 10:41 -0400
        Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2025-03-25 11:04 -0400
          Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2025-03-26 11:09 +1300
        Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2025-03-26 11:16 +1300
      Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-03-25 18:53 +0000
      Re: Apple requires too much money and sacrifice of control Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2025-03-26 11:09 +1300

csiph-web