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Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

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  Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow  from recent events Jonathan Wiltshire <jmw@debian.org> - 2021-03-31 00:40 +0200
    Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Nicolas Dandrimont <olasd@debian.org> - 2021-03-31 01:00 +0200
    Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Thadeu Lima de Souza Cascardo <cascardo@minaslivre.org> - 2021-03-31 02:20 +0200
    Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-03-31 02:40 +0200
    Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Richard Laager <rlaager@debian.org> - 2021-03-31 03:20 +0200
      Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Jonathan Wiltshire <jmw@debian.org> - 2021-03-31 08:30 +0200
        Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Richard Laager <rlaager@debian.org> - 2021-03-31 19:30 +0200
    Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2021-03-31 08:50 +0200
    Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Zlatan Todoric <zlatan@riseup.net> - 2021-03-31 09:00 +0200
    Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Paride Legovini <paride@debian.org> - 2021-03-31 10:40 +0200
    Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2021-03-31 10:50 +0200
    Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Micha Lenk <micha@debian.org> - 2021-03-31 11:20 +0200
    Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Gard Spreemann <gspr@nonempty.org> - 2021-03-31 12:00 +0200
    Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Kurt Roeckx <kurt@roeckx.be> - 2021-03-31 19:30 +0200
    Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Richard Laager <rlaager@debian.org> - 2021-03-31 19:30 +0200
    Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Richard Laager <rlaager@debian.org> - 2021-03-31 19:30 +0200
    Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2021-03-31 21:00 +0200
    Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and  grow from recent events Philipp Kern <pkern@debian.org> - 2021-04-01 18:40 +0200

#2246 — Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

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This is a late amendment proposal which I hope seconders will feel able to
support in time for it to make the ballot paper. It is late because I feel
strongly that events in the past few days [1] [2] [3] [4] risk overtaking
this GR; Debian already has enough criticism for being slow to respond, and
I want to head off anything which might reinforce that view.

1: https://www.fsf.org/news/preliminary-board-statement-on-fsf-governance
2: https://www.fsf.org/news/update-on-work-to-improve-governance-at-the-fsf
3: https://www.fsf.org/news/welcoming-ian-kelling-to-staff-seat-on-fsfs-board-of-directors
4: https://www.fsf.org/news/statement-from-the-fsf-board-of-directors-meeting-on-march-29-2021

I acknowledge that this text is not worded so strongly as many people would
like it to be. However, I don't believe in fueling fires and I would like
to see Debian calling for overhaul of FSF governance without joining any
lynch mobs. There are competing extreme opinions at the moment, and I'm
hoping this is a text on which we can have broader agreement.

CHOICE TEXT FOLLOWS:

This is a position statement of the Debian Developers in accordance with
our constitution, section 4.1.5.

The Developers firmly believe that leaders in any prominent organisation
are, and should be, held to the highest standards of accountability.

We are disappointed that issues of transparency and accountability in the
governance of the Free Software Foundation have led to unresolved and
serious complaints of impropriety by its founder Richard Stallman over a
number of years whilst in the position of president and as a member of the
board. In particular, we are deeply concerned that the board saw fit to
reinstate him without properly considering the effect of its actions on
those complainants.

The Developers acknowledge that people make mistakes but believe that where
those people are in leadership positions, they must be held accountable for
their mistakes. We believe that the most important part of making mistakes
is learning from them and changing behaviour. We are most concerned that
Richard and the board have not sufficiently acknowledged or learned from
issues which have affected a large number of people and that Richard
remains a significant influence on both the FSF board and the GNU project.

We call upon the Free Software Foundation to further steps it has taken in
March 2021 to overhaul governance of the organisation, and to work
tirelessly to ensure its aim is fulfilled. We believe that only through
properly accountable governance can members of an organisation ensure their
voice is heard. The Free Software Foundation must do everything in its
power to protect its staff and members, and the wider community, including
a robust and transparent process for dealing with complaints.

We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
reinstated him, to consider their positions.

The Developers are proud that contributors to free software come from all
walks of life and that our diverse experience and opinions are a strength
of software freedom. But we must never cease in our efforts to ensure that
all contributors are treated with respect, and that they feel safe and
secure in our communities - including when we meet in person.

END CHOICE TEXT


-- 
Jonathan Wiltshire                                      jmw@debian.org
Debian Developer                         http://people.debian.org/~jmw

4096R: 0xD3524C51 / 0A55 B7C5 1223 3942 86EC  74C3 5394 479D D352 4C51

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#2249 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

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Le Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 11:28:47PM +0100, Jonathan Wiltshire a écrit :
> CHOICE TEXT FOLLOWS:
> 
> This is a position statement of the Debian Developers in accordance with
> our constitution, section 4.1.5.
> 
> The Developers firmly believe that leaders in any prominent organisation
> are, and should be, held to the highest standards of accountability.
> 
> We are disappointed that issues of transparency and accountability in the
> governance of the Free Software Foundation have led to unresolved and
> serious complaints of impropriety by its founder Richard Stallman over a
> number of years whilst in the position of president and as a member of the
> board. In particular, we are deeply concerned that the board saw fit to
> reinstate him without properly considering the effect of its actions on
> those complainants.
> 
> The Developers acknowledge that people make mistakes but believe that where
> those people are in leadership positions, they must be held accountable for
> their mistakes. We believe that the most important part of making mistakes
> is learning from them and changing behaviour. We are most concerned that
> Richard and the board have not sufficiently acknowledged or learned from
> issues which have affected a large number of people and that Richard
> remains a significant influence on both the FSF board and the GNU project.
> 
> We call upon the Free Software Foundation to further steps it has taken in
> March 2021 to overhaul governance of the organisation, and to work
> tirelessly to ensure its aim is fulfilled. We believe that only through
> properly accountable governance can members of an organisation ensure their
> voice is heard. The Free Software Foundation must do everything in its
> power to protect its staff and members, and the wider community, including
> a robust and transparent process for dealing with complaints.
> 
> We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
> reinstated him, to consider their positions.
> 
> The Developers are proud that contributors to free software come from all
> walks of life and that our diverse experience and opinions are a strength
> of software freedom. But we must never cease in our efforts to ensure that
> all contributors are treated with respect, and that they feel safe and
> secure in our communities - including when we meet in person.
> 
> END CHOICE TEXT

Seconded.

Thank you,
-- 
Nicolas Dandrimont

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#2250 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

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On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 11:28:47PM +0100, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
> This is a late amendment proposal which I hope seconders will feel able to
> support in time for it to make the ballot paper. It is late because I feel
> strongly that events in the past few days [1] [2] [3] [4] risk overtaking
> this GR; Debian already has enough criticism for being slow to respond, and
> I want to head off anything which might reinforce that view.
> 
> 1: https://www.fsf.org/news/preliminary-board-statement-on-fsf-governance
> 2: https://www.fsf.org/news/update-on-work-to-improve-governance-at-the-fsf
> 3: https://www.fsf.org/news/welcoming-ian-kelling-to-staff-seat-on-fsfs-board-of-directors
> 4: https://www.fsf.org/news/statement-from-the-fsf-board-of-directors-meeting-on-march-29-2021
> 
> I acknowledge that this text is not worded so strongly as many people would
> like it to be. However, I don't believe in fueling fires and I would like
> to see Debian calling for overhaul of FSF governance without joining any
> lynch mobs. There are competing extreme opinions at the moment, and I'm
> hoping this is a text on which we can have broader agreement.
> 
> CHOICE TEXT FOLLOWS:
> 
> This is a position statement of the Debian Developers in accordance with
> our constitution, section 4.1.5.
> 
> The Developers firmly believe that leaders in any prominent organisation
> are, and should be, held to the highest standards of accountability.
> 
> We are disappointed that issues of transparency and accountability in the
> governance of the Free Software Foundation have led to unresolved and
> serious complaints of impropriety by its founder Richard Stallman over a
> number of years whilst in the position of president and as a member of the
> board. In particular, we are deeply concerned that the board saw fit to
> reinstate him without properly considering the effect of its actions on
> those complainants.
> 
> The Developers acknowledge that people make mistakes but believe that where
> those people are in leadership positions, they must be held accountable for
> their mistakes. We believe that the most important part of making mistakes
> is learning from them and changing behaviour. We are most concerned that
> Richard and the board have not sufficiently acknowledged or learned from
> issues which have affected a large number of people and that Richard
> remains a significant influence on both the FSF board and the GNU project.
> 
> We call upon the Free Software Foundation to further steps it has taken in
> March 2021 to overhaul governance of the organisation, and to work
> tirelessly to ensure its aim is fulfilled. We believe that only through
> properly accountable governance can members of an organisation ensure their
> voice is heard. The Free Software Foundation must do everything in its
> power to protect its staff and members, and the wider community, including
> a robust and transparent process for dealing with complaints.
> 
> We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
> reinstated him, to consider their positions.
> 
> The Developers are proud that contributors to free software come from all
> walks of life and that our diverse experience and opinions are a strength
> of software freedom. But we must never cease in our efforts to ensure that
> all contributors are treated with respect, and that they feel safe and
> secure in our communities - including when we meet in person.
> 
> END CHOICE TEXT
> 

Seconded.

> 
> -- 
> Jonathan Wiltshire                                      jmw@debian.org
> Debian Developer                         http://people.debian.org/~jmw
> 
> 4096R: 0xD3524C51 / 0A55 B7C5 1223 3942 86EC  74C3 5394 479D D352 4C51
> 

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#2251 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

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Le mardi 30 mars 2021 à 23:28:47+0100, Jonathan Wiltshire a écrit :
> This is a late amendment proposal which I hope seconders will feel able to
> support in time for it to make the ballot paper. It is late because I feel
> strongly that events in the past few days [1] [2] [3] [4] risk overtaking
> this GR; Debian already has enough criticism for being slow to respond, and
> I want to head off anything which might reinforce that view.
> 
> 1: https://www.fsf.org/news/preliminary-board-statement-on-fsf-governance
> 2: https://www.fsf.org/news/update-on-work-to-improve-governance-at-the-fsf
> 3: https://www.fsf.org/news/welcoming-ian-kelling-to-staff-seat-on-fsfs-board-of-directors
> 4: https://www.fsf.org/news/statement-from-the-fsf-board-of-directors-meeting-on-march-29-2021
> 
> I acknowledge that this text is not worded so strongly as many people would
> like it to be. However, I don't believe in fueling fires and I would like
> to see Debian calling for overhaul of FSF governance without joining any
> lynch mobs. There are competing extreme opinions at the moment, and I'm
> hoping this is a text on which we can have broader agreement.
> 
> CHOICE TEXT FOLLOWS:
> 
> This is a position statement of the Debian Developers in accordance with
> our constitution, section 4.1.5.
> 
> The Developers firmly believe that leaders in any prominent organisation
> are, and should be, held to the highest standards of accountability.
> 
> We are disappointed that issues of transparency and accountability in the
> governance of the Free Software Foundation have led to unresolved and
> serious complaints of impropriety by its founder Richard Stallman over a
> number of years whilst in the position of president and as a member of the
> board. In particular, we are deeply concerned that the board saw fit to
> reinstate him without properly considering the effect of its actions on
> those complainants.
> 
> The Developers acknowledge that people make mistakes but believe that where
> those people are in leadership positions, they must be held accountable for
> their mistakes. We believe that the most important part of making mistakes
> is learning from them and changing behaviour. We are most concerned that
> Richard and the board have not sufficiently acknowledged or learned from
> issues which have affected a large number of people and that Richard
> remains a significant influence on both the FSF board and the GNU project.
> 
> We call upon the Free Software Foundation to further steps it has taken in
> March 2021 to overhaul governance of the organisation, and to work
> tirelessly to ensure its aim is fulfilled. We believe that only through
> properly accountable governance can members of an organisation ensure their
> voice is heard. The Free Software Foundation must do everything in its
> power to protect its staff and members, and the wider community, including
> a robust and transparent process for dealing with complaints.
> 
> We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
> reinstated him, to consider their positions.
> 
> The Developers are proud that contributors to free software come from all
> walks of life and that our diverse experience and opinions are a strength
> of software freedom. But we must never cease in our efforts to ensure that
> all contributors are treated with respect, and that they feel safe and
> secure in our communities - including when we meet in person.
> 
> END CHOICE TEXT

Seconded.

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

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#2252 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

On 3/30/21 5:28 PM, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
> We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
> reinstated him, to consider their positions.
Can you elaborate on the intended meaning here? Is "position" their 
position to reinstate RMS, or their position as a member of the board?

Is this intentionally "consider" as opposed to "reconsider"? If so, is 
that intended to be a weaker form of reconsider?


Looking at the text as a whole, while there is talk of accountability, 
it's unclear to me what you actually want to happen. In contrast, I am 
able to understand the other choices: Choice 1 says RMS and the FSF 
board all need to go. Choice A/2 says we are taking no position as a 
project. Choice B/3 says RMS needs to go, and FSF needs to fix whatever 
allowed him to come back.

Is the general sense here that you would find it acceptable that RMS 
stays on the board, as long as he/they acknowledge past 
("mistakes"|"impropriety"), "learn from them[,] and change behavior"?

-- 
Richard

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#2255 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 08:13:59PM -0500, Richard Laager wrote:
> On 3/30/21 5:28 PM, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
> > We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
> > reinstated him, to consider their positions.
> Can you elaborate on the intended meaning here? Is "position" their position
> to reinstate RMS, or their position as a member of the board?
> 
> Is this intentionally "consider" as opposed to "reconsider"? If so, is that
> intended to be a weaker form of reconsider?

No, and no. "To consider one's position" in business and politics is a
(probably rather English) euphemism; being invited to consider your
position is a clear indication that you ought to be resigning over some
matter. I've chosen this form of words for that recognition. The difference
between consdidering, reconsidering and continually considering is, I think
largely academic. What we really want is genuine reflection by individuals
on how their actions have been perceived.


> Looking at the text as a whole, while there is talk of accountability, it's
> unclear to me what you actually want to happen. In contrast, I am able to
> understand the other choices: Choice 1 says RMS and the FSF board all need
> to go. Choice A/2 says we are taking no position as a project. Choice B/3
> says RMS needs to go, and FSF needs to fix whatever allowed him to come
> back.
> 
> Is the general sense here that you would find it acceptable that RMS stays
> on the board, as long as he/they acknowledge past
> ("mistakes"|"impropriety"), "learn from them[,] and change behavior"?

This is a position statement by an entire body of developers, by majority,
some options of which could be seen as dictating the actions of another
organisation. A number of people have already expressed discomfort at that
idea.

I'm suggesting that the developers as a whole take a broader position,
callling for reformative action at the top of the FSF and by extension the
whole free software community without dictating what it should be - but the
expectation being that some people got it wrong and ought to resign.

The statement calls for results, not how to get there and that is in part
to avoid it beoming dated too quickly. It leaves doors open in the future
only if certain expectations are genuinely and transparently met. Equally,
I do not seek to tie the hands of individuals who *do* wish to express a
desire for more specific actions and who are free to sign the original
petition or any other.

I'd acknowledge that it is a compromise. I'm looking for a text the whole
project can get behind without alienating more moderate voices
within our community.


-- 
Jonathan Wiltshire                                      jmw@debian.org
Debian Developer                         http://people.debian.org/~jmw

4096R: 0xD3524C51 / 0A55 B7C5 1223 3942 86EC  74C3 5394 479D D352 4C51

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#2275 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

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On 3/31/21 1:20 AM, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 08:13:59PM -0500, Richard Laager wrote:
>> On 3/30/21 5:28 PM, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
>>> We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
>>> reinstated him, to consider their positions.
>> Can you elaborate on the intended meaning here? Is "position" their position
>> to reinstate RMS, or their position as a member of the board?
>>
>> Is this intentionally "consider" as opposed to "reconsider"? If so, is that
>> intended to be a weaker form of reconsider?
> 
> No, and no. "To consider one's position" in business and politics is a
> (probably rather English) euphemism; being invited to consider your
> position is a clear indication that you ought to be resigning over some
> matter.

Thanks for clarifying. I'm an en-US speaker and I was not familiar with 
that (possibly en-GB) euphemism.

-- 
Richard

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#2256 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

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Quoting Jonathan Wiltshire (2021-03-31 00:28:47)
> This is a late amendment proposal which I hope seconders will feel able to
> support in time for it to make the ballot paper. It is late because I feel
> strongly that events in the past few days [1] [2] [3] [4] risk overtaking
> this GR; Debian already has enough criticism for being slow to respond, and
> I want to head off anything which might reinforce that view.
> 
> 1: https://www.fsf.org/news/preliminary-board-statement-on-fsf-governance
> 2: https://www.fsf.org/news/update-on-work-to-improve-governance-at-the-fsf
> 3: https://www.fsf.org/news/welcoming-ian-kelling-to-staff-seat-on-fsfs-board-of-directors
> 4: https://www.fsf.org/news/statement-from-the-fsf-board-of-directors-meeting-on-march-29-2021
> 
> I acknowledge that this text is not worded so strongly as many people would
> like it to be. However, I don't believe in fueling fires and I would like
> to see Debian calling for overhaul of FSF governance without joining any
> lynch mobs. There are competing extreme opinions at the moment, and I'm
> hoping this is a text on which we can have broader agreement.
> 
> CHOICE TEXT FOLLOWS:
> 
> This is a position statement of the Debian Developers in accordance with
> our constitution, section 4.1.5.
> 
> The Developers firmly believe that leaders in any prominent organisation
> are, and should be, held to the highest standards of accountability.
> 
> We are disappointed that issues of transparency and accountability in the
> governance of the Free Software Foundation have led to unresolved and
> serious complaints of impropriety by its founder Richard Stallman over a
> number of years whilst in the position of president and as a member of the
> board. In particular, we are deeply concerned that the board saw fit to
> reinstate him without properly considering the effect of its actions on
> those complainants.
> 
> The Developers acknowledge that people make mistakes but believe that where
> those people are in leadership positions, they must be held accountable for
> their mistakes. We believe that the most important part of making mistakes
> is learning from them and changing behaviour. We are most concerned that
> Richard and the board have not sufficiently acknowledged or learned from
> issues which have affected a large number of people and that Richard
> remains a significant influence on both the FSF board and the GNU project.
> 
> We call upon the Free Software Foundation to further steps it has taken in
> March 2021 to overhaul governance of the organisation, and to work
> tirelessly to ensure its aim is fulfilled. We believe that only through
> properly accountable governance can members of an organisation ensure their
> voice is heard. The Free Software Foundation must do everything in its
> power to protect its staff and members, and the wider community, including
> a robust and transparent process for dealing with complaints.
> 
> We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
> reinstated him, to consider their positions.
> 
> The Developers are proud that contributors to free software come from all
> walks of life and that our diverse experience and opinions are a strength
> of software freedom. But we must never cease in our efforts to ensure that
> all contributors are treated with respect, and that they feel safe and
> secure in our communities - including when we meet in person.
> 
> END CHOICE TEXT

Seconded.

This text adresses the concerns I have raised on this list (as far I I 
have so far been able to understand it - and due to the shortened 
processing time I hope that anyone spotting issues in it does so in 
time...).

Thanks, Jonathan!


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#2257 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

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On 3/31/21 00:28, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
> This is a late amendment proposal which I hope seconders will feel able to
> support in time for it to make the ballot paper. It is late because I feel
> strongly that events in the past few days [1] [2] [3] [4] risk overtaking
> this GR; Debian already has enough criticism for being slow to respond, and
> I want to head off anything which might reinforce that view.
>
> 1: https://www.fsf.org/news/preliminary-board-statement-on-fsf-governance
> 2: https://www.fsf.org/news/update-on-work-to-improve-governance-at-the-fsf
> 3: https://www.fsf.org/news/welcoming-ian-kelling-to-staff-seat-on-fsfs-board-of-directors
> 4: https://www.fsf.org/news/statement-from-the-fsf-board-of-directors-meeting-on-march-29-2021
>
> I acknowledge that this text is not worded so strongly as many people would
> like it to be. However, I don't believe in fueling fires and I would like
> to see Debian calling for overhaul of FSF governance without joining any
> lynch mobs. There are competing extreme opinions at the moment, and I'm
> hoping this is a text on which we can have broader agreement.
>
> CHOICE TEXT FOLLOWS:
>
> This is a position statement of the Debian Developers in accordance with
> our constitution, section 4.1.5.
>
> The Developers firmly believe that leaders in any prominent organisation
> are, and should be, held to the highest standards of accountability.
>
> We are disappointed that issues of transparency and accountability in the
> governance of the Free Software Foundation have led to unresolved and
> serious complaints of impropriety by its founder Richard Stallman over a
> number of years whilst in the position of president and as a member of the
> board. In particular, we are deeply concerned that the board saw fit to
> reinstate him without properly considering the effect of its actions on
> those complainants.
>
> The Developers acknowledge that people make mistakes but believe that where
> those people are in leadership positions, they must be held accountable for
> their mistakes. We believe that the most important part of making mistakes
> is learning from them and changing behaviour. We are most concerned that
> Richard and the board have not sufficiently acknowledged or learned from
> issues which have affected a large number of people and that Richard
> remains a significant influence on both the FSF board and the GNU project.
>
> We call upon the Free Software Foundation to further steps it has taken in
> March 2021 to overhaul governance of the organisation, and to work
> tirelessly to ensure its aim is fulfilled. We believe that only through
> properly accountable governance can members of an organisation ensure their
> voice is heard. The Free Software Foundation must do everything in its
> power to protect its staff and members, and the wider community, including
> a robust and transparent process for dealing with complaints.
>
> We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
> reinstated him, to consider their positions.
>
> The Developers are proud that contributors to free software come from all
> walks of life and that our diverse experience and opinions are a strength
> of software freedom. But we must never cease in our efforts to ensure that
> all contributors are treated with respect, and that they feel safe and
> secure in our communities - including when we meet in person.
>
> END CHOICE TEXT
>
Seconded.

I still like some other option better but I want this to be an option too.

Zlatan

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#2259 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

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Jonathan Wiltshire wrote on 31/03/2021:
> This is a late amendment proposal which I hope seconders will feel able to
> support in time for it to make the ballot paper. It is late because I feel
> strongly that events in the past few days [1] [2] [3] [4] risk overtaking
> this GR; Debian already has enough criticism for being slow to respond, and
> I want to head off anything which might reinforce that view.
> 
> 1: https://www.fsf.org/news/preliminary-board-statement-on-fsf-governance
> 2: https://www.fsf.org/news/update-on-work-to-improve-governance-at-the-fsf
> 3: https://www.fsf.org/news/welcoming-ian-kelling-to-staff-seat-on-fsfs-board-of-directors
> 4: https://www.fsf.org/news/statement-from-the-fsf-board-of-directors-meeting-on-march-29-2021
> 
> I acknowledge that this text is not worded so strongly as many people would
> like it to be. However, I don't believe in fueling fires and I would like
> to see Debian calling for overhaul of FSF governance without joining any
> lynch mobs. There are competing extreme opinions at the moment, and I'm
> hoping this is a text on which we can have broader agreement.
> 
> CHOICE TEXT FOLLOWS:
> 
> This is a position statement of the Debian Developers in accordance with
> our constitution, section 4.1.5.
> 
> The Developers firmly believe that leaders in any prominent organisation
> are, and should be, held to the highest standards of accountability.
> 
> We are disappointed that issues of transparency and accountability in the
> governance of the Free Software Foundation have led to unresolved and
> serious complaints of impropriety by its founder Richard Stallman over a
> number of years whilst in the position of president and as a member of the
> board. In particular, we are deeply concerned that the board saw fit to
> reinstate him without properly considering the effect of its actions on
> those complainants.
> 
> The Developers acknowledge that people make mistakes but believe that where
> those people are in leadership positions, they must be held accountable for
> their mistakes. We believe that the most important part of making mistakes
> is learning from them and changing behaviour. We are most concerned that
> Richard and the board have not sufficiently acknowledged or learned from
> issues which have affected a large number of people and that Richard
> remains a significant influence on both the FSF board and the GNU project.
> 
> We call upon the Free Software Foundation to further steps it has taken in
> March 2021 to overhaul governance of the organisation, and to work
> tirelessly to ensure its aim is fulfilled. We believe that only through
> properly accountable governance can members of an organisation ensure their
> voice is heard. The Free Software Foundation must do everything in its
> power to protect its staff and members, and the wider community, including
> a robust and transparent process for dealing with complaints.
> 
> We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
> reinstated him, to consider their positions.
> 
> The Developers are proud that contributors to free software come from all
> walks of life and that our diverse experience and opinions are a strength
> of software freedom. But we must never cease in our efforts to ensure that
> all contributors are treated with respect, and that they feel safe and
> secure in our communities - including when we meet in person.
> 
> END CHOICE TEXT

Seconded.

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#2260 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

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On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 11:28:47PM +0100, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
> CHOICE TEXT FOLLOWS:
> 
> This is a position statement of the Debian Developers in accordance with
> our constitution, section 4.1.5.
> 
> The Developers firmly believe that leaders in any prominent organisation
> are, and should be, held to the highest standards of accountability.
> 
> We are disappointed that issues of transparency and accountability in the
> governance of the Free Software Foundation have led to unresolved and
> serious complaints of impropriety by its founder Richard Stallman over a
> number of years whilst in the position of president and as a member of the
> board. In particular, we are deeply concerned that the board saw fit to
> reinstate him without properly considering the effect of its actions on
> those complainants.
> 
> The Developers acknowledge that people make mistakes but believe that where
> those people are in leadership positions, they must be held accountable for
> their mistakes. We believe that the most important part of making mistakes
> is learning from them and changing behaviour. We are most concerned that
> Richard and the board have not sufficiently acknowledged or learned from
> issues which have affected a large number of people and that Richard
> remains a significant influence on both the FSF board and the GNU project.
> 
> We call upon the Free Software Foundation to further steps it has taken in
> March 2021 to overhaul governance of the organisation, and to work
> tirelessly to ensure its aim is fulfilled. We believe that only through
> properly accountable governance can members of an organisation ensure their
> voice is heard. The Free Software Foundation must do everything in its
> power to protect its staff and members, and the wider community, including
> a robust and transparent process for dealing with complaints.
> 
> We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
> reinstated him, to consider their positions.
> 
> The Developers are proud that contributors to free software come from all
> walks of life and that our diverse experience and opinions are a strength
> of software freedom. But we must never cease in our efforts to ensure that
> all contributors are treated with respect, and that they feel safe and
> secure in our communities - including when we meet in person.
> 
> END CHOICE TEXT

Seconded.

Thanks, Jonathan!


-- 
cheers,
	Holger

 ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
 ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁       holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
 ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ PGP fingerprint: B8BF 5413 7B09 D35C F026 FE9D 091A B856 069A AA1C
 ⠈⠳⣄

Die Faktenlage bzgl. Klimakatastrophe ist so eindeutig und die Folgen sind so
schwerwiegend, dass Parteien und Organisationen, die immer noch wirksame Maß-
nahmen dagegen behindern, als verbrecherisch einzustufen sind.

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#2261 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

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Hi all,

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 11:28:47PM +0100, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
> This is a late amendment proposal which I hope seconders will feel able to
> support in time for it to make the ballot paper. It is late because I feel
> strongly that events in the past few days [1] [2] [3] [4] risk overtaking
> this GR; Debian already has enough criticism for being slow to respond, and
> I want to head off anything which might reinforce that view.
> 
> 1: https://www.fsf.org/news/preliminary-board-statement-on-fsf-governance
> 2: https://www.fsf.org/news/update-on-work-to-improve-governance-at-the-fsf
> 3: https://www.fsf.org/news/welcoming-ian-kelling-to-staff-seat-on-fsfs-board-of-directors
> 4: https://www.fsf.org/news/statement-from-the-fsf-board-of-directors-meeting-on-march-29-2021
> 
> I acknowledge that this text is not worded so strongly as many people would
> like it to be. However, I don't believe in fueling fires and I would like
> to see Debian calling for overhaul of FSF governance without joining any
> lynch mobs. There are competing extreme opinions at the moment, and I'm
> hoping this is a text on which we can have broader agreement.
> 
> CHOICE TEXT FOLLOWS:
> 
> This is a position statement of the Debian Developers in accordance with
> our constitution, section 4.1.5.
> 
> The Developers firmly believe that leaders in any prominent organisation
> are, and should be, held to the highest standards of accountability.
> 
> We are disappointed that issues of transparency and accountability in the
> governance of the Free Software Foundation have led to unresolved and
> serious complaints of impropriety by its founder Richard Stallman over a
> number of years whilst in the position of president and as a member of the
> board. In particular, we are deeply concerned that the board saw fit to
> reinstate him without properly considering the effect of its actions on
> those complainants.
> 
> The Developers acknowledge that people make mistakes but believe that where
> those people are in leadership positions, they must be held accountable for
> their mistakes. We believe that the most important part of making mistakes
> is learning from them and changing behaviour. We are most concerned that
> Richard and the board have not sufficiently acknowledged or learned from
> issues which have affected a large number of people and that Richard
> remains a significant influence on both the FSF board and the GNU project.
> 
> We call upon the Free Software Foundation to further steps it has taken in
> March 2021 to overhaul governance of the organisation, and to work
> tirelessly to ensure its aim is fulfilled. We believe that only through
> properly accountable governance can members of an organisation ensure their
> voice is heard. The Free Software Foundation must do everything in its
> power to protect its staff and members, and the wider community, including
> a robust and transparent process for dealing with complaints.
> 
> We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
> reinstated him, to consider their positions.
> 
> The Developers are proud that contributors to free software come from all
> walks of life and that our diverse experience and opinions are a strength
> of software freedom. But we must never cease in our efforts to ensure that
> all contributors are treated with respect, and that they feel safe and
> secure in our communities - including when we meet in person.
> 
> END CHOICE TEXT

Seconded.

Regards,
Micha

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#2262 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

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Jonathan Wiltshire <jmw@debian.org> writes:

> CHOICE TEXT FOLLOWS:
>
> This is a position statement of the Debian Developers in accordance with
> our constitution, section 4.1.5.
>
> The Developers firmly believe that leaders in any prominent organisation
> are, and should be, held to the highest standards of accountability.
>
> We are disappointed that issues of transparency and accountability in the
> governance of the Free Software Foundation have led to unresolved and
> serious complaints of impropriety by its founder Richard Stallman over a
> number of years whilst in the position of president and as a member of the
> board. In particular, we are deeply concerned that the board saw fit to
> reinstate him without properly considering the effect of its actions on
> those complainants.
>
> The Developers acknowledge that people make mistakes but believe that where
> those people are in leadership positions, they must be held accountable for
> their mistakes. We believe that the most important part of making mistakes
> is learning from them and changing behaviour. We are most concerned that
> Richard and the board have not sufficiently acknowledged or learned from
> issues which have affected a large number of people and that Richard
> remains a significant influence on both the FSF board and the GNU project.
>
> We call upon the Free Software Foundation to further steps it has taken in
> March 2021 to overhaul governance of the organisation, and to work
> tirelessly to ensure its aim is fulfilled. We believe that only through
> properly accountable governance can members of an organisation ensure their
> voice is heard. The Free Software Foundation must do everything in its
> power to protect its staff and members, and the wider community, including
> a robust and transparent process for dealing with complaints.
>
> We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
> reinstated him, to consider their positions.
>
> The Developers are proud that contributors to free software come from all
> walks of life and that our diverse experience and opinions are a strength
> of software freedom. But we must never cease in our efforts to ensure that
> all contributors are treated with respect, and that they feel safe and
> secure in our communities - including when we meet in person.
>
> END CHOICE TEXT

Seconded.

 -- Gard
 

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#2272 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

This option is now also on the website.


Kurt

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#2273 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

On 3/30/21 5:28 PM, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
> CHOICE TEXT FOLLOWS:
> 
> This is a position statement of the Debian Developers in accordance with
> our constitution, section 4.1.5.
> 
> The Developers firmly believe that leaders in any prominent organisation
> are, and should be, held to the highest standards of accountability.
> 
> We are disappointed that issues of transparency and accountability in the
> governance of the Free Software Foundation have led to unresolved and
> serious complaints of impropriety by its founder Richard Stallman over a
> number of years whilst in the position of president and as a member of the
> board. In particular, we are deeply concerned that the board saw fit to
> reinstate him without properly considering the effect of its actions on
> those complainants.
> 
> The Developers acknowledge that people make mistakes but believe that where
> those people are in leadership positions, they must be held accountable for
> their mistakes. We believe that the most important part of making mistakes
> is learning from them and changing behaviour. We are most concerned that
> Richard and the board have not sufficiently acknowledged or learned from
> issues which have affected a large number of people and that Richard
> remains a significant influence on both the FSF board and the GNU project.
> 
> We call upon the Free Software Foundation to further steps it has taken in
> March 2021 to overhaul governance of the organisation, and to work
> tirelessly to ensure its aim is fulfilled. We believe that only through
> properly accountable governance can members of an organisation ensure their
> voice is heard. The Free Software Foundation must do everything in its
> power to protect its staff and members, and the wider community, including
> a robust and transparent process for dealing with complaints.
> 
> We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
> reinstated him, to consider their positions.
> 
> The Developers are proud that contributors to free software come from all
> walks of life and that our diverse experience and opinions are a strength
> of software freedom. But we must never cease in our efforts to ensure that
> all contributors are treated with respect, and that they feel safe and
> secure in our communities - including when we meet in person.
> 
> END CHOICE TEXT

Seconded.

-- 
Richard

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#2274 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

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On 3/30/21 5:28 PM, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
> CHOICE TEXT FOLLOWS:
> 
> This is a position statement of the Debian Developers in accordance with
> our constitution, section 4.1.5.
> 
> The Developers firmly believe that leaders in any prominent organisation
> are, and should be, held to the highest standards of accountability.
> 
> We are disappointed that issues of transparency and accountability in the
> governance of the Free Software Foundation have led to unresolved and
> serious complaints of impropriety by its founder Richard Stallman over a
> number of years whilst in the position of president and as a member of the
> board. In particular, we are deeply concerned that the board saw fit to
> reinstate him without properly considering the effect of its actions on
> those complainants.
> 
> The Developers acknowledge that people make mistakes but believe that where
> those people are in leadership positions, they must be held accountable for
> their mistakes. We believe that the most important part of making mistakes
> is learning from them and changing behaviour. We are most concerned that
> Richard and the board have not sufficiently acknowledged or learned from
> issues which have affected a large number of people and that Richard
> remains a significant influence on both the FSF board and the GNU project.
> 
> We call upon the Free Software Foundation to further steps it has taken in
> March 2021 to overhaul governance of the organisation, and to work
> tirelessly to ensure its aim is fulfilled. We believe that only through
> properly accountable governance can members of an organisation ensure their
> voice is heard. The Free Software Foundation must do everything in its
> power to protect its staff and members, and the wider community, including
> a robust and transparent process for dealing with complaints.
> 
> We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
> reinstated him, to consider their positions.
> 
> The Developers are proud that contributors to free software come from all
> walks of life and that our diverse experience and opinions are a strength
> of software freedom. But we must never cease in our efforts to ensure that
> all contributors are treated with respect, and that they feel safe and
> secure in our communities - including when we meet in person.
> 
> END CHOICE TEXT

Seconded.

Signed this time. Ugh!

-- 
Richard

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#2277 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

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Hello,

On Tue 30 Mar 2021 at 11:28PM +01, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:

> CHOICE TEXT FOLLOWS:
>
> This is a position statement of the Debian Developers in accordance with
> our constitution, section 4.1.5.
>
> The Developers firmly believe that leaders in any prominent organisation
> are, and should be, held to the highest standards of accountability.
>
> We are disappointed that issues of transparency and accountability in the
> governance of the Free Software Foundation have led to unresolved and
> serious complaints of impropriety by its founder Richard Stallman over a
> number of years whilst in the position of president and as a member of the
> board. In particular, we are deeply concerned that the board saw fit to
> reinstate him without properly considering the effect of its actions on
> those complainants.
>
> The Developers acknowledge that people make mistakes but believe that where
> those people are in leadership positions, they must be held accountable for
> their mistakes. We believe that the most important part of making mistakes
> is learning from them and changing behaviour. We are most concerned that
> Richard and the board have not sufficiently acknowledged or learned from
> issues which have affected a large number of people and that Richard
> remains a significant influence on both the FSF board and the GNU project.
>
> We call upon the Free Software Foundation to further steps it has taken in
> March 2021 to overhaul governance of the organisation, and to work
> tirelessly to ensure its aim is fulfilled. We believe that only through
> properly accountable governance can members of an organisation ensure their
> voice is heard. The Free Software Foundation must do everything in its
> power to protect its staff and members, and the wider community, including
> a robust and transparent process for dealing with complaints.
>
> We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
> reinstated him, to consider their positions.
>
> The Developers are proud that contributors to free software come from all
> walks of life and that our diverse experience and opinions are a strength
> of software freedom. But we must never cease in our efforts to ensure that
> all contributors are treated with respect, and that they feel safe and
> secure in our communities - including when we meet in person.
>
> END CHOICE TEXT

Seconded.

-- 
Sean Whitton

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#2351 — Re: Amendment to RMS/FSF GR: Option 4, assert the need to learn and grow from recent events

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On 31.03.21 00:28, Jonathan Wiltshire wrote:
> CHOICE TEXT FOLLOWS:
> 
> This is a position statement of the Debian Developers in accordance with
> our constitution, section 4.1.5.
> 
> The Developers firmly believe that leaders in any prominent organisation
> are, and should be, held to the highest standards of accountability.
> 
> We are disappointed that issues of transparency and accountability in the
> governance of the Free Software Foundation have led to unresolved and
> serious complaints of impropriety by its founder Richard Stallman over a
> number of years whilst in the position of president and as a member of the
> board. In particular, we are deeply concerned that the board saw fit to
> reinstate him without properly considering the effect of its actions on
> those complainants.
> 
> The Developers acknowledge that people make mistakes but believe that where
> those people are in leadership positions, they must be held accountable for
> their mistakes. We believe that the most important part of making mistakes
> is learning from them and changing behaviour. We are most concerned that
> Richard and the board have not sufficiently acknowledged or learned from
> issues which have affected a large number of people and that Richard
> remains a significant influence on both the FSF board and the GNU project.
> 
> We call upon the Free Software Foundation to further steps it has taken in
> March 2021 to overhaul governance of the organisation, and to work
> tirelessly to ensure its aim is fulfilled. We believe that only through
> properly accountable governance can members of an organisation ensure their
> voice is heard. The Free Software Foundation must do everything in its
> power to protect its staff and members, and the wider community, including
> a robust and transparent process for dealing with complaints.
> 
> We urge Richard Stallman and the remaining members of the board which
> reinstated him, to consider their positions.
> 
> The Developers are proud that contributors to free software come from all
> walks of life and that our diverse experience and opinions are a strength
> of software freedom. But we must never cease in our efforts to ensure that
> all contributors are treated with respect, and that they feel safe and
> secure in our communities - including when we meet in person.
> 
> END CHOICE TEXT

Seconded. Thank you.

Kind regards
Philipp Kern

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