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Groups > linux.debian.user > #220328 > unrolled thread
| Started by | kjonca@fastmail.com (Kamil Jońca) |
|---|---|
| First post | 2020-03-23 20:10 +0100 |
| Last post | 2020-03-25 13:00 +0100 |
| Articles | 8 on this page of 28 — 13 participants |
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Re: Buster without systemd? kjonca@fastmail.com (Kamil Jońca) - 2020-03-23 20:10 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2020-03-23 23:20 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 11:40 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 15:10 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 16:30 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-03-24 16:50 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 20:50 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-25 17:10 +0100
Re: ethernet cfg via cmdline (was: Buster without systemd?) Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2020-03-25 17:40 +0100
Re: ethernet cfg via kernel cmdline (was: Buster without systemd?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-25 18:10 +0100
Re: ethernet cfg via kernel cmdline (was: Buster without systemd?) Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-26 15:40 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-03-24 17:10 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2020-03-24 20:50 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 21:00 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-03-25 04:30 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-03-25 08:40 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-03-25 20:10 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? Liam O'Toole <liam.p.otoole@gmail.com> - 2020-03-25 21:40 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? [with backtrack] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-03-26 03:20 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? [with backtrack] deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-03-26 08:30 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? [with backtrack] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-03-27 04:30 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? [with backtrack] mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2020-03-27 08:20 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? [with backtrack] Liam O'Toole <liam.p.otoole@gmail.com> - 2020-03-26 11:10 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? [with backtrack] rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-03-26 12:20 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-25 10:10 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-03-25 12:20 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2020-03-25 12:50 +0100
Re: Buster without systemd? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-03-25 13:00 +0100
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-03-27 04:30 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Buster without systemd? [with backtrack] |
| Message-ID | <zONR1-SR-31@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #220500 |
On Thu 26 Mar 2020 at 08:03:38 (+0100), deloptes wrote:
> David Wright wrote:
>
> Well I do not know o use systemd-networkd, so your assumption is not
> correct. It was meant and in the context of some kind of GUI be it CLI or X
OK, so I completely misinterpreted what the "it" referred to in
your response to Andrei ("I find it amazing how *it* works").
We'd been talking about the increasing "desires" of systemd,
including "[to] manage network interfaces", ie systemd-networkd,
which was specifically mentioned by Andrei. NetworkManager had
only cropped up in a list of examples of other software, so
I wasn't aware we were changing subject.
That's cleared that up.
> > I don't want a desktop. In fact, wicd doesn't even need X, as it can
> > run quite happily on a VC to configure a new AP.
> >
> > When I return to somewhere I have been before, wicd (the daemon)
> > usually connects before I have typed my passphrase to unlock /home.
> > (That assumes I'm logging in.)
>
> This is good that you have something useful and you can work with it. Please
> do not impose to others. Everybody is free to use whatever suits the needs
> the best.
Where do you get the idea that I'm imposing anything on anyone?
I just wrote what I don't use (system-networkd) and what I do
(wicd), and gave my reason, something that people often overlook
when they suggest software. (Look at the thread "how to keep 2 PCs
partially in sync" for example.)
> May be 10y ago I've used wicd several time. In my world all GTK is ... well
> crap. I do not know why people want to write something like this in C, but
> on the other hand if it works - it works.
I've never used wicd-gtk so, as well as not talking about NetworkManager,
I'm not talking about GTK, nor about what is or isn't written in C.
I use wicd-curses, a TUI that runs, as I wrote, on VCs as well as X.
I have no idea what language(s) wicd and curses are written in, and
that played no part in my decision of what to use.
> Anyway this is my personal opinion. If you ask Torvald about C++ he has the
> same opinion as me about C.
> It is good that there are different opinions
Sure, but I wonder why you interpret my posts as complaints, or as
impositions on other people. Especially in a thread about systemd,
which always seems to bring out the worst in some people. I'm neutral
on systemd, and use it because Debian does. Having used Debian since
its first release, I'm still quite happy to run with their choices.
Cheers,
David.
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| From | mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-03-27 08:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Buster without systemd? [with backtrack] |
| Message-ID | <zORrz-3bt-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #220541 |
On 2020-03-27 03:12, David Wright wrote: <snipped> > I'm still quite happy to run with their choices. I'm also very happy to use this free software that works. for example I used to use fetchmail and procmail now I use getmail and dovecot-deliver. I have no idea how dovecot does the mail transport but I'm sure I could find out, same way I could probably find out about systemd even though this old fart moans about things getting more complicated. mick -- Key ID 4BFEBB31
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| From | Liam O'Toole <liam.p.otoole@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-03-26 11:10 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Buster without systemd? [with backtrack] |
| Message-ID | <zOxCz-7nF-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #220495 |
On Wed, 25 Mar, 2020 at 21:02:17 -0500, David Wright wrote: > On Wed 25 Mar 2020 at 20:18:29 (+0000), Liam O'Toole wrote: > > > > For what it's worth, Network Manager doesn't need a GUI either. Tools > > such as nmcli and nmtui allow you to configure and control network > > connections from the command line. > > There seems to be some confusion in this subthread. Going back a little: [...] My remark was simply a response to yours about wicd not requiring X. I hope it hasn't added to the confusion.
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| From | rhkramer@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-03-26 12:20 +0100 |
| Subject | Re: Buster without systemd? [with backtrack] |
| Message-ID | <zOyIh-80n-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #220495 |
I can't help you (don't use WiFi / Network Manager / etc. very often), but I applaud you for putting the effort into trying to clarify the discussion! (No new content below this line.) On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 10:02:17 PM David Wright wrote: > On Wed 25 Mar 2020 at 20:18:29 (+0000), Liam O'Toole wrote: > > For what it's worth, Network Manager doesn't need a GUI either. Tools > > such as nmcli and nmtui allow you to configure and control network > > connections from the command line. > > There seems to be some confusion in this subthread. Going back a little: > > On Tue 24 Mar 2020 at 12:14:57 (+0200), Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > systemd-networkd is not meant to do very complicated configurations. > > On Tue 24 Mar 2020 at 14:49:03 (+0100), deloptes wrote: > > well - for static IP you don't need systemd, but it is a relief for > > the dynamic stuff - i.e. wireless and cabled networks that change. I > > find it amazing how it works .... not that I say I am starting to > > love systemd :) […] > > On Tue 24 Mar 2020 at 10:44:54 (-0500), David Wright wrote: > > I looked at what documentation I could find, but carried on using > > > > wicd-curses, and the arch wiki seems to agree with what I found: > > "systemd-networkd does not have a proper interactive management > > > > interface neither via command-line nor graphical". > > > > The interface is what matters when you're travelling with a laptop. > > So this is a conversation about systemd-networkd, not NetworkManager, > in a thread that's about systemd, not Gnome or any other desktop/DE. > > I think the next message in the subthread led to others' confusion, > so I'm going to add two annotations to the quote (which should clarify > what I understand it to mean), and then repeat the reply I gave before: > > On Tue 24 Mar 2020 at 20:34:24 (+0100), deloptes wrote: > > David Wright wrote: > > > I looked at what documentation I could find, but carried on using > > > wicd-curses, and the arch wiki seems to agree with what I found: > > > > > > "systemd-networkd does not have a proper interactive management > > > interface neither via command-line nor graphical". > > > > > > The interface is what matters when you're travelling with a laptop. > > > > But the purpose of systemd is not to give you an interface. This is > > provided > > ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ Here, I presume the word intended is > "systemd-networkd". ↓↓↓↓↓↓↓ > > > by each desktop. Systemd will give you the low level service management - > > AFAIK it works via dbus. > > Here, I presume that the "network manager" that > systemd ↓ is talking to (via dbus) is systemd-networkd, > ↓ and *not* NetworkManager (aka network-manager). > ↓ > ↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓ > > > systemd <-> dbus <-> network-manager > > > > network-manager-interface > > > > This is my understanding how it works or should work. > > I don't want a desktop. In fact, wicd doesn't even need X, as it can > run quite happily on a VC to configure a new AP. > > When I return to somewhere I have been before, wicd (the daemon) > usually connects before I have typed my passphrase to unlock /home. > (That assumes I'm logging in.) > > Cheers, > David.
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| From | Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-03-25 10:10 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <zOacV-1po-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #220418 |
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On Ma, 24 mar 20, 20:34:24, deloptes wrote: > > But the purpose of systemd is not to give you an interface. This is provided > by each desktop. Systemd will give you the low level service management - > AFAIK it works via dbus. > > systemd <-> dbus <-> network-manager > | > network-manager-interface > > This is my understanding how it works or should work. As far as I can tell network manager is *not* using systemd-networkd in the background (it doesn't depend on systemd). Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
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| From | deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-03-25 12:20 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <zOceK-2C8-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #220456 |
Andrei POPESCU wrote: > As far as I can tell network manager is *not* using systemd-networkd in > the background (it doesn't depend on systemd). No, it doesn't but both of them use dbus and obviously can talk to each other there. So the advantage is when systemd does something network manager can react and vice versa. but I do not have systemd-networkd or -resolved installed $ dpkg -l | grep systemd ii libpam-systemd:amd64 241-7~deb10u3 amd64 system and service manager - PAM module ii libsystemd0:amd64 241-7~deb10u3 amd64 systemd utility library ii systemd 241-7~deb10u3 amd64 system and service manager ii systemd-sysv:i386 241-7~deb10u3 i386 system and service manager - SysV links I was going to figure out why systemd-sysv:i386 is selected over systemd-sysv:amd64, but couldn't allocate time and motivation so far. And BTW I can not find anything like networkd $ apt-cache search systemd | grep network networkd-dispatcher - Dispatcher service for systemd-networkd connection status changes or resolved $ apt-cache search systemd | grep resolv openvpn-systemd-resolved - integrates OpenVPN with systemd-resolved resolvconf-admin - setuid helper program for setting up the local DNS libnss-mymachines - nss module to resolve hostnames for local container instances libnss-resolve - nss module to resolve names via systemd-resolved I have no idea what people are complaining of here. Shouldn't I stay at home, I would not even read or write this ... pure coincidence.
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| From | Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-03-25 12:50 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <zOcHM-2Mk-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #220470 |
deloptes writes: > but I do not have systemd-networkd or -resolved installed There are no separate packages for systemd-networkd and -resolved; they are shipped as part of the systemd package, but are not enabled by default. You have enable and configure them for them to do anything. Ansgar
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| From | The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2020-03-25 13:00 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <zOcRr-2PA-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #220470 |
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On 2020-03-25 at 07:02, deloptes wrote: > And BTW I can not find anything like networkd > > $ apt-cache search systemd | grep network > networkd-dispatcher - Dispatcher service for systemd-networkd connection > status changes $ apt-file search system$ apt-file search systemd | grep networkd$ systemd: /lib/systemd/systemd-networkd > or resolved > > $ apt-cache search systemd | grep resolv > openvpn-systemd-resolved - integrates OpenVPN with systemd-resolved > resolvconf-admin - setuid helper program for setting up the local DNS > libnss-mymachines - nss module to resolve hostnames for local container > instances > libnss-resolve - nss module to resolve names via systemd-resolved $ apt-file search systemd | grep resolved$ openvpn-systemd-resolved: /etc/openvpn/update-systemd-resolved systemd: /lib/systemd/systemd-resolved Both are in the main systemd package - so anyone who has systemd installed (via Debian) at all, has them installed. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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