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Groups > linux.debian.user > #220294 > unrolled thread

Buster without systemd?

Started byMarc Shapiro <marcnshap@gmail.com>
First post2020-03-23 02:40 +0100
Last post2020-03-24 16:30 +0100
Articles 6 on this page of 66 — 27 participants

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  Buster without systemd? Marc Shapiro <marcnshap@gmail.com> - 2020-03-23 02:40 +0100
    Re: Buster without systemd? The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2020-03-23 03:20 +0100
      Re: Buster without systemd? Sven Joachim <svenjoac@gmx.de> - 2020-03-23 07:10 +0100
      Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-23 09:30 +0100
    Re: Buster without systemd? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2020-03-23 08:30 +0100
      Re: Buster without systemd? Renato Gallo <renato@aster-lab.com> - 2020-03-23 09:10 +0100
        Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-23 09:40 +0100
        Re: Buster without systemd? Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-03-23 09:50 +0100
          Re: Buster without systemd? Renato Gallo <renato@aster-lab.com> - 2020-03-23 10:20 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-03-23 11:00 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Dave Sherohman <dave@sherohman.org> - 2020-03-24 14:50 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2020-03-24 18:10 +0100
                Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-25 10:40 +0100
                  Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-25 11:10 +0100
        Re: Buster without systemd? Toni Mas <antomassol@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 00:20 +0100
    Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-23 09:30 +0100
    Re: Buster without systemd? Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2020-03-23 14:00 +0100
      Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-23 15:30 +0100
      Re: Buster without systemd? Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-03-23 15:50 +0100
        Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-23 16:10 +0100
        Re: Buster without systemd? Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-03-23 16:40 +0100
          Re: Buster without systemd? Tony van der Hoff <lists@vanderhoff.org> - 2020-03-23 17:50 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-23 18:10 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-03-23 18:30 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-03-23 18:30 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 12:40 +0100
                Re: Buster without systemd? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-03-24 14:10 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-03-23 18:40 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2020-03-23 20:40 +0100
                Re: Buster without systemd? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2020-03-23 21:30 +0100
                  Re: Buster without systemd? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-03-23 22:00 +0100
                    Re: Buster without systemd? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2020-03-24 00:10 +0100
                      Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 11:30 +0100
                        Re: Buster without systemd? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2020-03-24 12:10 +0100
                          Re: Buster without systemd? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-03-24 12:30 +0100
                          Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 12:40 +0100
                            Re: Buster without systemd? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 15:20 +0100
                              Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 16:10 +0100
                                Re: Buster without systemd? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 21:10 +0100
                          Re: Buster without systemd? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-03-24 15:00 +0100
                            Re: Buster without systemd? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2020-03-24 18:20 +0100
                  Re: Buster without systemd? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-03-23 22:20 +0100
                  Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-24 10:00 +0100
                    Re: Buster without systemd? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2020-03-24 11:00 +0100
                      Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-24 11:40 +0100
                        Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 12:10 +0100
                          Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-24 12:30 +0100
                          Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 12:40 +0100
                      Re: Buster without systemd? David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 14:10 +0100
                        Re: Buster without systemd? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2020-03-24 18:00 +0100
                    Re: Buster without systemd? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-03-24 14:20 +0100
                      Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-24 14:40 +0100
                        Re: Buster without systemd? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-03-24 15:40 +0100
                Re: Buster without systemd? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-03-24 03:30 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 16:40 +0100
                Re: Buster without systemd? Sven Joachim <svenjoac@gmx.de> - 2020-03-24 19:30 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2020-03-23 18:40 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-03-23 19:40 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-03-24 10:00 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2020-03-23 20:00 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Klaus Singvogel <deb-user-ml@singvogel.net> - 2020-03-23 20:50 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-03-24 04:10 +0100
                Re: Buster without systemd? Klaus Singvogel <klaus@singvogel.net> - 2020-03-24 17:40 +0100
          Re: Buster without systemd? Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 00:40 +0100
            Re: Buster without systemd? Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-03-24 01:30 +0100
              Re: Buster without systemd? Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-03-24 16:30 +0100

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#220330

FromKlaus Singvogel <deb-user-ml@singvogel.net>
Date2020-03-23 20:50 +0100
Message-ID<zNBfc-4WS-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#220319
Tony van der Hoff wrote:
> I know it's a sensitive subject, and I really don't want to upset the list,
> there's been enough of that already, but why are some people so afraid of
> systemd?

My reasons:

Can't debug the start / stop of daemons as good as before. "(ba)sh -x" no
more working.

Not able to move easily a more complex SysV init script to systemd. Lost
functionality by my home-made packages.

Logging (journald) disables searching in /var/log: "grep -r" not really
working there.

My computer "hickups" for 20 seconds at boot. With systemd I don't have
the slighest idea which process delays, as several processes start after
the delay at once. I had the feeling with Init scripts it was more obvious
to see which "startup file" hangs.

As others say: systemd is too fat and has too much functionality. It
throws too fast the experienced software overboard, replacing it by its
own version.

Its flooding syslog/messages with unnecessary information (type: INFO).
But some important messages are not found in syslog nor messages.

No easy way to find out: if and what fails. Example: After months I found
out that mlocate doesn't update it's database anymore: previously updates
were done by cron, but the distri moved to systemd's way (timer) and by
default the updatedb was disabled.

Default values without files: configuration files are not required, but
then some default values are used. You have to know which file by which
filename has to be created and how the variables/values are named. Not to
mention the lack of documentation for some configuration files.

Best regards,
	Klaus.
-- 
Klaus Singvogel
GnuPG-Key-ID: 1024R/5068792D  1994-06-27

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#220345

FromDavid Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk>
Date2020-03-24 04:10 +0100
Message-ID<zNI6Z-Px-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#220330
On Mon 23 Mar 2020 at 20:27:31 (+0100), Klaus Singvogel wrote:
> Tony van der Hoff wrote:
> > I know it's a sensitive subject, and I really don't want to upset the list,
> > there's been enough of that already, but why are some people so afraid of
> > systemd?
> 
> My reasons:

[…]

> Logging (journald) disables searching in /var/log: "grep -r" not really
> working there.

I commented on this already. grep -r is alive and well.

> My computer "hickups" for 20 seconds at boot. With systemd I don't have
> the slighest idea which process delays, as several processes start after
> the delay at once. I had the feeling with Init scripts it was more obvious
> to see which "startup file" hangs.

$ systemd-analyze critical-chain

Is that any help in finding what's waiting for what?

> Its flooding syslog/messages with unnecessary information (type: INFO).

Does removing "info" from the .conf file not work?

> But some important messages are not found in syslog nor messages.

Which ones are missing?

> No easy way to find out: if and what fails. Example: After months I found
> out that mlocate doesn't update it's database anymore: previously updates
> were done by cron, but the distri moved to systemd's way (timer) and by
> default the updatedb was disabled.

I've not touched the default. What did you have to change to make it run?

$ ls -l /var/lib/mlocate/mlocate.db 
-rw-r----- 1 root mlocate 46870853 Mar 23 08:18 /var/lib/mlocate/mlocate.db
$ 

Cheers,
David.

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#220399

FromKlaus Singvogel <klaus@singvogel.net>
Date2020-03-24 17:40 +0100
Message-ID<zNUKS-7S-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#220345
David Wright wrote:
> On Mon 23 Mar 2020 at 20:27:31 (+0100), Klaus Singvogel wrote:
> > My reasons:
[…]
> 
> > My computer "hickups" for 20 seconds at boot. With systemd I don't have
> > the slighest idea which process delays, as several processes start after
> > the delay at once. I had the feeling with Init scripts it was more obvious
> > to see which "startup file" hangs.
> 
> $ systemd-analyze critical-chain
> 
> Is that any help in finding what's waiting for what?

	graphical.target @23.269s
	└─multi-user.target @23.269s
	  └─exim4.service @23.095s +174ms
	    └─network-online.target @23.092s
	      └─network.target @23.086s
		└─networking.service @1.383s +21.702s
		  └─ifupdown-pre.service @285ms +1.096s
		    └─systemd-udev-trigger.service @230ms +54ms
		      └─systemd-udevd-control.socket @228ms
			└─system.slice @218ms
			  └─-.slice @218ms

At least I found a hint where to start: networking.service

> > But some important messages are not found in syslog nor messages.
> 
> Which ones are missing?

When daemons are started (at boot) and how long the startup took for example.

> > No easy way to find out: if and what fails. Example: After months I found
> > out that mlocate doesn't update it's database anymore: previously updates
> > were done by cron, but the distri moved to systemd's way (timer) and by
> > default the updatedb was disabled.
> 
> I've not touched the default. What did you have to change to make it run?

Well, this time it was only systemd related, but not Debian. I'm also
running SUSE Linux, and it happened there.

Regards,
	Klaus.
-- 
Klaus Singvogel
GnuPG-Key-ID: 1024R/5068792D  1994-06-27

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#220341

FromPatrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com>
Date2020-03-24 00:40 +0100
Message-ID<zNEPM-7ch-3@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#220318
On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:15:14 +0000
Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> wrote:

> On 23/03/2020 14:28, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:37:47 -0400
> > Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> wrote:
> >  
> >> There is devuan-ascii 2.x but I don't know its equivalent to buster.
> >> That system maintained sysv and still has support.  
> > ASCII is Stretch without systemd or any of the dependencies.  Devuan
> > hasn't release its "Buster" version yet.
> >
> > B
> >  
> It can be upgraded to 'beowulf' using apt of course.

I did that some months ago with Ascii running in Virtualbox.  And it did
work, but there were enough problems then that it wasn't suitable
for general use -- just evaluation. Perhaps there have been
improvements since then, but I'll wait for Beowulf to be officially
released before checking it out again.  Currently, I'll stick with
Stretch running sysvinit until long term support for ceases.

B

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#220342

FromMichael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk>
Date2020-03-24 01:30 +0100
Message-ID<zNFC9-7I1-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#220341
On 23/03/2020 23:20, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:15:14 +0000
> Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 23/03/2020 14:28, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:37:47 -0400
>>> Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> wrote:
>>>   
>>>> There is devuan-ascii 2.x but I don't know its equivalent to buster.
>>>> That system maintained sysv and still has support.
>>> ASCII is Stretch without systemd or any of the dependencies.  Devuan
>>> hasn't release its "Buster" version yet.
>>>
>>> B
>>>   
>> It can be upgraded to 'beowulf' using apt of course.
> I did that some months ago with Ascii running in Virtualbox.  And it did
> work, but there were enough problems then that it wasn't suitable
> for general use -- just evaluation. Perhaps there have been
> improvements since then, but I'll wait for Beowulf to be officially
> released before checking it out again.  Currently, I'll stick with
> Stretch running sysvinit until long term support for ceases.
>
> B
>
I guess it depends exactly what is installed but I have upgraded
via this route a number of times.

-- 
Michael Howard

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#220391

FromPatrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com>
Date2020-03-24 16:30 +0100
Message-ID<zNTF7-7WJ-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
In reply to#220342
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 00:04:18 +0000
Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> wrote:

> On 23/03/2020 23:20, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:15:14 +0000
> > Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> wrote:
> >  
> >> On 23/03/2020 14:28, Patrick Bartek wrote:  
> >>> On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:37:47 -0400
> >>> Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> wrote:
> >>>     
> >>>> There is devuan-ascii 2.x but I don't know its equivalent to buster.
> >>>> That system maintained sysv and still has support.  
> >>> ASCII is Stretch without systemd or any of the dependencies.  Devuan
> >>> hasn't release its "Buster" version yet.
> >>>
> >>> B
> >>>     
> >> It can be upgraded to 'beowulf' using apt of course.  
> > I did that some months ago with Ascii running in Virtualbox.  And it did
> > work, but there were enough problems then that it wasn't suitable
> > for general use -- just evaluation. Perhaps there have been
> > improvements since then, but I'll wait for Beowulf to be officially
> > released before checking it out again.  Currently, I'll stick with
> > Stretch running sysvinit until long term support for ceases.
> >
> > B
> >  
> I guess it depends exactly what is installed but I have upgraded
> via this route a number of times.

I wasn't implying that it wouldn't work.  It's just when I did it
(Fall 2019) Beowulf was less mature and had problems.  I wasn't
expecting it to be stable quality.  I just wanted to evaluate it since
I had problems with Buster trying to keep systemd's init from
wiping out sysvinit and reinstalling itself everytime I installed
something.  Infuriating!

FWIW: My Ascii test install in Virtualbox mirrored my Stretch install:
Basic terminal plus system utilities, X, a window manager (Openbox),
single LXPanel, etc.  No bells and whistles or eye candy. KISS. So, its
upgrade to Beowulf resulted in the same.

B

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