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Net Install: Installation halts for disk change

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  Net Install: Installation halts for disk change John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2020-02-26 22:20 +0100
    Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2020-02-27 04:30 +0100
      Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change Peter Ehlert <peter@sdi-baja.com> - 2020-02-27 05:10 +0100
        Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2020-02-27 05:40 +0100
          Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2020-02-27 08:20 +0100
        Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2020-02-27 08:10 +0100
          Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-02-27 09:50 +0100
            Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2020-02-27 14:30 +0100
            Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change Peter Ehlert <peter@sdi-baja.com> - 2020-02-27 15:30 +0100
            Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2020-02-27 23:20 +0100
          Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2020-02-27 15:50 +0100
            Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2020-02-27 23:20 +0100
              Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-03-01 02:20 +0100
                Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2020-03-01 03:50 +0100
                  Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-03-01 09:30 +0100
                  Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-03-01 16:50 +0100
      Re: Net Install: Installation halts for disk change John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> - 2020-02-27 08:10 +0100

#219505 — Net Install: Installation halts for disk change

For my Thinkpad, I burned CDs with:
	(1) debian-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
	(2) firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
and	(3) firmware-edu-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso [just in case]

A. Disk (1) begins without problem, then stops for wifi firmware:

> "Some of your hardware needs non-free firmware files to operate. ... The missing firmware files are:
> 	iwlwifi-8265-{22..36}.ucode
> If you have such media available now, insert it and continue."

To my surprise, the CD drive eject button did not work - I had to use a pin to open the tray and replace the CD. Probably as a consequence, the new disc was not read. I tried to get it to read the new disc by unplugging and returning the drive, and it seemed read (judging from drive activity) - but still did not see the files. Finally I left it unplugged for a half hour, then returned it, and it finally did read, as one (or more?) files loaded, then the script moved on.
  
Next, the install script moved on to "Configure the network", and an error message:

> "Network autoconfiguration failed: Your network is probably not using the DHCP protocol. Alternatively, the DHCP server may be slow or some network hardware is not working properly."

So clearly "Configure the network" is about a wired link, not wifi - which makes one wonder: Why did we just pause to get wifi driver files? [I asked this question in another thread, but if anyone wants to answer it here, I would be grateful.]

I ran the script twice from boot -- the first time with the default "Graphical Install", the second time using "Install" for more info -- both times with the same result: Unable to get the CD drive eject to work to change disks. The second time, knowing what was coming, I just skipped that part and the network configured automatically over the cable.

So here is the question: When net installing from CD, what is the anticipated order of operation?  When the script says, "If you have such media available now, insert it and continue", doesn't it expect a CD change? If so, should it not, on a "Yes" answer, either
	 (a) automatically eject the CD or
	 (b) provide a manual eject "button" or
	 (c) at least release the drive so that its own eject button can be used?

John

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#219516

On 2/26/20, John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> wrote:
> For my Thinkpad, I burned CDs with:
> 	(1) debian-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
> 	(2) firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
> and	(3) firmware-edu-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso [just in case]
>
> A. Disk (1) begins without problem, then stops for wifi firmware:

Try it with one of the non-free network install ISOs from
https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/

My first try installing Debian was with an 'official' install DVD & I
had to find an ethernet cable to make a connection because wifi
wouldn't work :(

Maybe they've got instructions somewhere that somebody understands to
get all the hardware on their machine working..  me?  I went with the
"unofficial alternative build includes non-free firmware for extra
support for some awkward hardware." and didn't have any problems.

Regards,
Lee

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#219518

On 2/26/20 7:20 PM, Lee wrote:
> On 2/26/20, John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> wrote:
>> For my Thinkpad, I burned CDs with:
>> 	(1) debian-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>> 	(2) firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>> and	(3) firmware-edu-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso [just in case]
>>
>> A. Disk (1) begins without problem, then stops for wifi firmware:
> Try it with one of the non-free network install ISOs from
> https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/
I have been using these: 
https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/10.3.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
> My first try installing Debian was with an 'official' install DVD & I
> had to find an ethernet cable to make a connection because wifi
> wouldn't work :(
>
> Maybe they've got instructions somewhere that somebody understands to
> get all the hardware on their machine working..  me?  I went with the
> "unofficial alternative build includes non-free firmware for extra
> support for some awkward hardware." and didn't have any problems.
>
> Regards,
> Lee
>
>

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#219520

On 2/26/20, Peter Ehlert <peter@sdi-baja.com> wrote:
>
> On 2/26/20 7:20 PM, Lee wrote:
>> On 2/26/20, John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> wrote:
>>> For my Thinkpad, I burned CDs with:
>>> 	(1) debian-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>>> 	(2) firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>>> and	(3) firmware-edu-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso [just in case]
>>>
>>> A. Disk (1) begins without problem, then stops for wifi firmware:
>>
>> Try it with one of the non-free network install ISOs from
>> https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/

> I have been using these:
> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/10.3.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/

try booting with
  firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
It should Just Work -- as in no stopping with a prompt for missing firmware.

Regards
Lee

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#219526

On 2020-02-26 23:34, Lee wrote:
> On 2/26/20, Peter Ehlert wrote:
>> On 2/26/20 7:20 PM, Lee wrote:
>>> On 2/26/20, John Kaufmann wrote:
>>>> For my Thinkpad, I burned CDs with:
>>>>	 	(1) debian-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>>>>	 	(2) firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>>>> and	(3) firmware-edu-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso [just in case]
>>>>
>>>> A. Disk (1) begins without problem, then stops for wifi firmware:
>>>
>>> Try it with one of the non-free network install ISOs from
>>> https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/
> 
>> I have been using these:
>> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/10.3.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
> 
> try booting with
>    firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
> It should Just Work -- as in no stopping with a prompt for missing firmware.

Indeed it does, Lee. Thanks. But I infer that you did not recognize that is the file (2) cited in the OP. And (as I just noted above in this thread) there's a lesson in that: this has been WAY over-complicated. As a Debian newbie I don't want to be critical, but do want to take lessons from this experience to help me do some cleanup when I have a bit more Debian under my belt. This distro is too good to hide its light (from newcomers) under a bushel.

Regards,
John

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#219525

On 2020-02-26 22:49, Peter Ehlert wrote:
> On 2/26/20 7:20 PM, Lee wrote:
>> On 2/26/20, John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> wrote:
>>> For my Thinkpad, I burned CDs with:
>>>     (1) debian-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>>>     (2) firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>>> and    (3) firmware-edu-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso [just in case]
>>>
>>> A. Disk (1) begins without problem, then stops for wifi firmware:
>> Try it with one of the non-free network install ISOs from
>> https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/
> I have been using these: https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/10.3.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
> ...
Thanks, Peter - but on top of Lee's answer, I'm beginning to get a sense that debian.org has /way/ over-complicated the installation images. (If the choice of images seems too complicated, that's only because it it.)  For example, just look at the pages you and Lee referenced:

	Lee: cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/
	You: cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/10.3.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/

Two pages to serve the same purpose is WAY too much churn. Then look at the /files/ from those two pages:

	Lee's page: [660M] firmware-10.3.0-amd64-i386-netinst.iso
	Your  page: [377M] firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso

It's almost as if two different people (or parties) are taking cracks at the same issue simply because no one is in charge to rationalize it for the sake of the people who matter: Those who are looking for a way to get started on Debian. But it gets even worse: Both pages use the SAME boilerplate text above the file links, so it would be easy to confuse them. Even someone who has read the instructions <https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch06.en.html> carefully (as I did) has no hint of the unnecessary complications.

There's no reason there should be two places for people to go for the same thing. As it happens, the file from your page is the one I had already downloaded [(2) above], but even you did not recognize it because this has been over-complicated. And looking at both files, knowing that they contain much of the same material, I'm inclined to think that the other one [at 660M rather than 377M] has been more carefully assembled to get as much as practicable onto one installation disk.

I'm taking a lesson from this: some cleanup is in order.

Thanks,
John

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#219528

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Jo, 27 feb 20, 02:03:56, John Kaufmann wrote:
> On 2020-02-26 22:49, Peter Ehlert wrote:
> > On 2/26/20 7:20 PM, Lee wrote:
> > > On 2/26/20, John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> wrote:
> > > > For my Thinkpad, I burned CDs with:
> > > >     (1) debian-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
> > > >     (2) firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
> > > > and    (3) firmware-edu-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso [just in case]
> > > > 
> > > > A. Disk (1) begins without problem, then stops for wifi firmware:
> > > Try it with one of the non-free network install ISOs from
> > > https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/
> > I have been using these: https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/10.3.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
> > ...
> Thanks, Peter - but on top of Lee's answer, I'm beginning to get a 
> sense that debian.org has /way/ over-complicated the installation 
> images. (If the choice of images seems too complicated, that's only 
> because it it.)  For example, just look at the pages you and Lee 
> referenced:
> 
> 	Lee: cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/
> 	You: cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/10.3.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
> 
> Two pages to serve the same purpose is WAY too much churn. Then look 
> at the /files/ from those two pages:
> 
> 	Lee's page: [660M] firmware-10.3.0-amd64-i386-netinst.iso
> 	Your  page: [377M] firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
> 
> It's almost as if two different people (or parties) are taking cracks 
> at the same issue simply because no one is in charge to rationalize it 
> for the sake of the people who matter: Those who are looking for a way 
> to get started on Debian. But it gets even worse: Both pages use the 
> SAME boilerplate text above the file links, so it would be easy to 
> confuse them. Even someone who has read the instructions 
> <https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch06.en.html> carefully 
> (as I did) has no hint of the unnecessary complications.
> 
> There's no reason there should be two places for people to go for the 
> same thing. As it happens, the file from your page is the one I had 
> already downloaded [(2) above], but even you did not recognize it 
> because this has been over-complicated. And looking at both files, 
> knowing that they contain much of the same material, I'm inclined to 
> think that the other one [at 660M rather than 377M] has been more 
> carefully assembled to get as much as practicable onto one 
> installation disk.
> 
> I'm taking a lesson from this: some cleanup is in order.

The names are quite self-explanatory, one image is for amd64 only (64bit 
PCs) and one is for amd64 and i386 (older 32bit-only PCs, or if for some 
reason you must install 32bit OS on 64bit hardware).

It might be a good idea to stop building the multiarch image in 2020. 
Most users should install amd64 anyway and those that *really* need i386 
are likely able to find the correct image anyway.


Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#219544

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On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:46:55 +0200
Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:

> It might be a good idea to stop building the multiarch image in 2020. 
> Most users should install amd64 anyway and those that *really* need
> i386 are likely able to find the correct image anyway.

On the other tentacle, some of us have both amd64 and i386 boxen, and
might prefer the convenience of only downloading, burning and having
one CD for the lot.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

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#219553

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On 2/27/20 12:46 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Jo, 27 feb 20, 02:03:56, John Kaufmann wrote:
>> On 2020-02-26 22:49, Peter Ehlert wrote:
>>> On 2/26/20 7:20 PM, Lee wrote:
>>>> On 2/26/20, John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> wrote:
>>>>> For my Thinkpad, I burned CDs with:
>>>>>      (1) debian-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>>>>>      (2) firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>>>>> and    (3) firmware-edu-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso [just in case]
>>>>>
>>>>> A. Disk (1) begins without problem, then stops for wifi firmware:
>>>> Try it with one of the non-free network install ISOs from
>>>> https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/
>>> I have been using these: https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/10.3.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
>>> ...
>> Thanks, Peter - but on top of Lee's answer, I'm beginning to get a
>> sense that debian.org has /way/ over-complicated the installation
>> images. (If the choice of images seems too complicated, that's only
>> because it it.)  For example, just look at the pages you and Lee
>> referenced:
>>
>> 	Lee: cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/
>> 	You: cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/10.3.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
>>
>> Two pages to serve the same purpose is WAY too much churn. Then look
>> at the /files/ from those two pages:
>>
>> 	Lee's page: [660M] firmware-10.3.0-amd64-i386-netinst.iso
>> 	Your  page: [377M] firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>>
>> It's almost as if two different people (or parties) are taking cracks
>> at the same issue simply because no one is in charge to rationalize it
>> for the sake of the people who matter: Those who are looking for a way
>> to get started on Debian. But it gets even worse: Both pages use the
>> SAME boilerplate text above the file links, so it would be easy to
>> confuse them. Even someone who has read the instructions
>> <https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch06.en.html> carefully
>> (as I did) has no hint of the unnecessary complications.
>>
>> There's no reason there should be two places for people to go for the
>> same thing. As it happens, the file from your page is the one I had
>> already downloaded [(2) above], but even you did not recognize it
>> because this has been over-complicated. And looking at both files,
>> knowing that they contain much of the same material, I'm inclined to
>> think that the other one [at 660M rather than 377M] has been more
>> carefully assembled to get as much as practicable onto one
>> installation disk.
>>
>> I'm taking a lesson from this: some cleanup is in order.
> The names are quite self-explanatory, one image is for amd64 only (64bit
> PCs) and one is for amd64 and i386 (older 32bit-only PCs, or if for some
> reason you must install 32bit OS on 64bit hardware).
Self-explanatory? Maybe for you but the differences between the 
amd64-i386 and the amd64 went over my head. Thank for pointing that 
difference out.
I never claimed to be all that bright.
Yes, having One ISO to install on both will be a Great boon for me.
<https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/firmware-10.3.0-amd64-i386-netinst.iso> 

>
> It might be a good idea to stop building the multiarch image in 2020.
> Most users should install amd64 anyway and those that *really* need i386
> are likely able to find the correct image anyway.

I beg to differ.

perhaps a bit of website cleanup and some boilerplate edits might help, 
but the Content is excellent.

>
>
> Kind regards,
> Andrei

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#219593

On 2020-02-27 03:46, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Jo, 27 feb 20, 02:03:56, John Kaufmann wrote:

Distribution directories:

>> [1] cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/
>> [2] cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/10.3.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
>> 
>> Two pages to serve the same purpose is too much churn. Then look at the /files/ from those two pages:
>>
>> [1]: [660M] firmware-10.3.0-amd64-i386-netinst.iso
>> [2]: [377M] firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>> ...
>> I'm taking a lesson from this: some cleanup is in order.
> 
> The names are quite self-explanatory, one image is for amd64 only (64bit
> PCs) and one is for amd64 and i386 (older 32bit-only PCs, or if for some
> reason you must install 32bit OS on 64bit hardware).
> 
> It might be a good idea to stop building the multiarch image in 2020.
> Most users should install amd64 anyway and those that *really* need i386
> are likely able to find the correct image anyway.

You are right. In a distribution targeting multi-architectures, I'm sorry that I neglected the special case of the x86/x64 history that makes them such a commonly-needed joint target (as opposed to other architectures). I read carelessly; it's in the first line of each page, under "What in this directory?".

It's no excuse, but page titles (if there must be different pages) could help, as well as a more regular directory tree:
	Why is one page under "cdimage.debian.org/images/.."
	  and the other under "cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/.."

If there is demand for combined x86/x64, then that's not a complication. If I have 'fresh-eyes' thoughts about this, they are probably best explored with the Debian CD team, not here. My objective is making distribution as painless as possible; I'm sure they have the same objective, and have given the matter more thought.

Thanks for your clarity, as well as your excellent FAQ page.

Kind regards,
John

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#219557

On 2/27/20, John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> wrote:
> On 2020-02-26 22:49, Peter Ehlert wrote:
>> On 2/26/20 7:20 PM, Lee wrote:
>>> On 2/26/20, John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> wrote:
>>>> For my Thinkpad, I burned CDs with:
>>>>     (1) debian-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>>>>     (2) firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>>>> and    (3) firmware-edu-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso [just in case]
>>>>
>>>> A. Disk (1) begins without problem, then stops for wifi firmware:
>>>
>>> Try it with one of the non-free network install ISOs from
>>> https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/
>>
>> I have been using these:
>> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/10.3.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
>> ...
> Thanks, Peter - but on top of Lee's answer, I'm beginning to get a sense
> that debian.org has /way/ over-complicated the installation images.

I think they don't do a good job of explaining things for newbies -
especially the implications of "free software only" (or whatever term
they use - I'm too lazy to go look) images.

> (If the
> choice of images seems too complicated, that's only because it it.)  For
> example, just look at the pages you and Lee referenced:
>
> 	Lee:
> cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/
> 	You:
> cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/10.3.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
>
> Two pages to serve the same purpose is WAY too much churn.

except they do NOT serve the same purpose.  I've got machines with
Intel 32 and 64 bit CPUs.  The /multi-arch/ image works for both; the
/amd64/ will work only on an Intel 64 bit cpu.

> Then look at the
> /files/ from those two pages:
>
> 	Lee's page: [660M] firmware-10.3.0-amd64-i386-netinst.iso
> 	Your  page: [377M] firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>
> It's almost as if two different people (or parties) are taking cracks at the
> same issue simply because no one is in charge to rationalize it for the sake
> of the people who matter: Those who are looking for a way to get started on
> Debian.

nit: you're only "looking for a way to get started" once.

Yes, they could make it easier for someone without a linux background,
but look at it as a learning experience :)   And I suspect "the people
who matter" are current Debian users, not the clueless looking for a
MS Windows alternative (like me).

> But it gets even worse: Both pages use the SAME boilerplate text
> above the file links, so it would be easy to confuse them. Even someone who
> has read the instructions
> <https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch06.en.html> carefully (as I
> did) has no hint of the unnecessary complications.
>
> There's no reason there should be two places for people to go for the same
> thing. As it happens, the file from your page is the one I had already
> downloaded [(2) above], but even you did not recognize it because this has
> been over-complicated.

I noticed (2) was the non-free install image..  but the OP booted from
the 'free software only' image and it's not terribly surprising that
the 'find the non-free driver' software failed to find anything on an
ISO image.  It's probably looking for files and doesn't know how to
unpack an ISO image.

> And looking at both files, knowing that they contain
> much of the same material, I'm inclined to think that the other one [at 660M
> rather than 377M] has been more carefully assembled to get as much as
> practicable onto one installation disk.
>
> I'm taking a lesson from this: some cleanup is in order.

Whereas I think the issue is that most linux documentation assumes too
much background knowledge.  But I suppose that's what the mailing
lists are for - a shortcut for finding out what info you're missing :)

Regards,
Lee

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#219594

On 2020-02-27 09:41, Lee wrote:
> On 2/27/20, John Kaufmann wrote:

>> ... I'm beginning to get a sense
>> that debian.org has /way/ over-complicated the installation images.
> 
> I think they don't do a good job of explaining things for newbies -
> especially the implications of "free software only" (or whatever term
> they use - I'm too lazy to go look) images.

Agreed: that is well-explained, and in fuzzy principle I like the explanation. In functional terms, it only became an issue for me when the image I was installing paused to ask for a disk with needed wifi drivers. (See the thread title.) So I have two problems with free/non-free - one philosophical/operational, one regarding the image installation script:

  1) If one can only make a working system with "non-free" drivers, what is the alternative? - a non-working system? What is the point of being a stickler about a "free" installation if that installation itself /requests/ "non-free" components? [Are all OEM hardware drivers by definition "non-free"?]

  2) When the installation pauses to ask for the insertion of a new medium (i.e., a disk change) requiring drivers, how is that supposed to execute if the installation does not prompt, or even allow, the CD drive to change disks (OP of this thread)? Despite excellent replies to this thread, I'm sad that no reply has addressed that issue.


>> (If the choice of images seems too complicated, that's only because it is.)  For
>> example, just look at the pages ...:
>> ...
>> cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/
>> cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/10.3.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
>>
>> Two pages to serve the same purpose is too much churn.
> 
> except they do NOT serve the same purpose.  I've got machines with
> Intel 32 and 64 bit CPUs.  The /multi-arch/ image works for both; the
> /amd64/ will work only on an Intel 64 bit cpu.

Quite right; I was careless. That said, Debian targets many architectures. The special case of x64 evolving out of the x86 instruction set has made x86/x64 a common joint target (as opposed to other architectures), which my carelessness ignored.

Maybe, though, a case can be made for more formal regularity to highlight /intentional/ distinctions. For example,
  - Should the x86/x64 distribution be under a directory tree "/images/.." while the the x86/x64 distribution is under a directory tree "/cdimage/.."? (Surely that is a distinction without intent or motivation?)
  - Could the two pages have page *titles* to highlight their distinct purposes [the usual reason for page titles ;-)]?
  - Could they be handled on a single page, along with other architecture targets (assuming a suitably clear and compact format - like a table?)?

> ...
> nit: you're only "looking for a way to get started" once.
> 
> Yes, they could make it easier for someone without a linux background,
> but look at it as a learning experience :)   And I suspect "the people
> who matter" are current Debian users, not the clueless looking for a
> MS Windows alternative (like me).

I do look at this as a learning experience, and in that effort am grateful not only for Debian but for this excellent list. "The people who matter" are all who want to use Debian, regardless where they come from.  Before it died, my last Thinkpad was running Mint/Xfce for years, and I found I was attracted to two communities which seemed to be excellent places to find answers: Arch and Debian. So I thought my next move would be to Arch (or Manjaro) or Debian.

My new Thinkpad came with Windows 10. I had to get concrete about the distro decision in a hurry, so reexamined my thinking and settled on Debian (because of a preference for stable rather than rolling releases - among other things, I wanted to learn more about the server side). I have not been disappointed.


>> I'm taking a lesson from this: some cleanup is in order.
> 
> Whereas I think the issue is that most linux documentation assumes too
> much background knowledge.  But I suppose that's what the mailing
> lists are for - a shortcut for finding out what info you're missing :)

That's a good point, but I actually don't mind the OS learning curve -- though I do try to shorten it for others (to get them to move to something cleaner than MS). My questions here have been about the Debian ecosystem and installation quirks, and I think I have learned some things that could be tidied up to make life simpler (which, among other things, could only help my objective of offering people a Windows escape route). With all the help received on this list, I have learned a meta-lesson: that the place to explore those apparent 'lessons learned' is with the Debian CD team.

Kind regards,
John

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#219662

On Thu 27 Feb 2020 at 17:13:26 (-0500), John Kaufmann wrote:
> On 2020-02-27 09:41, Lee wrote:
> > On 2/27/20, John Kaufmann wrote:
> 
> > > ... I'm beginning to get a sense
> > > that debian.org has /way/ over-complicated the installation images.
> > 
> > I think they don't do a good job of explaining things for newbies -
> > especially the implications of "free software only" (or whatever term
> > they use - I'm too lazy to go look) images.
> 
> Agreed: that is well-explained, and in fuzzy principle I like the explanation. In functional terms, it only became an issue for me when the image I was installing paused to ask for a disk with needed wifi drivers. (See the thread title.) So I have two problems with free/non-free - one philosophical/operational, one regarding the image installation script:
> 
>  1) If one can only make a working system with "non-free" drivers, what is the alternative? - a non-working system? What is the point of being a stickler about a "free" installation if that installation itself /requests/ "non-free" components? [Are all OEM hardware drivers by definition "non-free"?]

The premise of your question is wrong. None of my three desktop
machines needs any non-free driver. One uses a firmware blob for
sound, which it never saw until it was 12 years old when I ditched
its predecessor, a Tucson mobo'd PC. I don't think Debian has ever
carried it (Yamaha ymfpci) in the timespan over which I've used it.

>  2) When the installation pauses to ask for the insertion of a new medium (i.e., a disk change) requiring drivers, how is that supposed to execute if the installation does not prompt, or even allow, the CD drive to change disks (OP of this thread)? Despite excellent replies to this thread, I'm sad that no reply has addressed that issue.

I'm not certain the issue has been addressed at all, mainly because
there's never any real need. AIUI, and correct me if I'm wrong, you
downloaded both a free d-i and a firmware one onto two CDs, and
installed using the former. Then you needed to load the firmware from
somewhere, and wanted to use the other CD as the source.

Almost nobody finds themselves in this situation, nor are they intended
to. The idea is that you put any non-included drivers, whether they're
from Debian or elsewhere, onto a USB stick (or SD card, or whatever),
which you can insert at any time. (If it's already inserted, it won't
be asked for.)

> > > (If the choice of images seems too complicated, that's only because it is.)  For
> > > example, just look at the pages ...:
> > > ...
> > > cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/
> > > cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/10.3.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
> > > 
> > > Two pages to serve the same purpose is too much churn.
> > 
> > except they do NOT serve the same purpose.  I've got machines with
> > Intel 32 and 64 bit CPUs.  The /multi-arch/ image works for both; the
> > /amd64/ will work only on an Intel 64 bit cpu.
> 
> Quite right; I was careless. That said, Debian targets many architectures. The special case of x64 evolving out of the x86 instruction set has made x86/x64 a common joint target (as opposed to other architectures), which my carelessness ignored.
> 
> Maybe, though, a case can be made for more formal regularity to highlight /intentional/ distinctions. For example,
>  - Should the x86/x64 distribution be under a directory tree "/images/.." while the the x86/x64 distribution is under a directory tree "/cdimage/.."? (Surely that is a distinction without intent or motivation?)
>  - Could the two pages have page *titles* to highlight their distinct purposes [the usual reason for page titles ;-)]?
>  - Could they be handled on a single page, along with other architecture targets (assuming a suitably clear and compact format - like a table?)?

I have no idea whether this is true, but there might be some intention
of evolving from cdimage to images, if only because using the term CD
to cover DVDs and USB sticks etc is confusing to some, according to
some posts here.

> > ...
> > nit: you're only "looking for a way to get started" once.
> > 
> > Yes, they could make it easier for someone without a linux background,
> > but look at it as a learning experience :)   And I suspect "the people
> > who matter" are current Debian users, not the clueless looking for a
> > MS Windows alternative (like me).
> 
> I do look at this as a learning experience, and in that effort am grateful not only for Debian but for this excellent list. "The people who matter" are all who want to use Debian, regardless where they come from.  Before it died, my last Thinkpad was running Mint/Xfce for years, and I found I was attracted to two communities which seemed to be excellent places to find answers: Arch and Debian. So I thought my next move would be to Arch (or Manjaro) or Debian.
> 
> My new Thinkpad came with Windows 10. I had to get concrete about the distro decision in a hurry, so reexamined my thinking and settled on Debian (because of a preference for stable rather than rolling releases - among other things, I wanted to learn more about the server side). I have not been disappointed.
> 
> > > I'm taking a lesson from this: some cleanup is in order.
> > 
> > Whereas I think the issue is that most linux documentation assumes too
> > much background knowledge.  But I suppose that's what the mailing
> > lists are for - a shortcut for finding out what info you're missing :)
> 
> That's a good point, but I actually don't mind the OS learning curve -- though I do try to shorten it for others (to get them to move to something cleaner than MS). My questions here have been about the Debian ecosystem and installation quirks, and I think I have learned some things that could be tidied up to make life simpler (which, among other things, could only help my objective of offering people a Windows escape route). With all the help received on this list, I have learned a meta-lesson: that the place to explore those apparent 'lessons learned' is with the Debian CD team.

I would agree that the paths through the web pages might be made a bit
more logical; not just the ISOs but also the md5sums etc. But I
imagine the d-i people have a lot on their (few) hands keeping up
with building the d-i software itself (if indeed it's the same people
responsible).

Cheers,
David.

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#219663

On 2020-02-29 20:20, David Wright wrote:
> On Thu 27 Feb 2020 at 17:13:26 (-0500), John Kaufmann wrote:
>> On 2020-02-27 09:41, Lee wrote:
>>
>> [The free/non-free distinction] ... is well-explained, and in fuzzy principle I like the explanation. In functional terms, it only became an issue for me when the image I was installing paused to ask for a disk with needed wifi drivers. (See the thread title.) So I have two problems with free/non-free - one philosophical/operational, one regarding the image installation script:
>>
>>   1) If one can only make a working system with "non-free" drivers, what is the alternative? - a non-working system? What is the point of being a stickler about a "free" installation if that installation itself /requests/ "non-free" components? [Are all OEM hardware drivers by definition "non-free"?]
> 
> The premise of your question is wrong. None of my three desktop
> machines needs any non-free driver. One uses a firmware blob for
> sound, which it never saw until it was 12 years old when I ditched
> its predecessor, a Tucson mobo'd PC. I don't think Debian has ever
> carried it (Yamaha ymfpci) in the timespan over which I've used it.

But (as noted above) the "free" installation paused to /ask/ for wifi drivers for my Thinkpad, from "non-free" media:

> "If you have such media available now, insert it and continue."

I have to agree with that script: a Thinkpad without wifi could fairly be called a non-working system... which comes back to my two-part first question, about the philosophical/operational aspect of the "free" commitment:
  - Is it a choice between a free non-working system or a non-free working system?
  - Are OEM hardware drivers by definition "non-free"?


>>   2) When the installation pauses to ask for the insertion of a new medium (i.e., a disk change) requiring drivers, how is that supposed to execute if the installation does not prompt, or even allow, the CD drive to change disks (OP of this thread)? Despite excellent replies to this thread, I'm sad that no reply has addressed that issue.
> 
> I'm not certain the issue has been addressed at all, mainly because
> there's never any real need. AIUI, and correct me if I'm wrong, you
> downloaded both a free d-i and a firmware one onto two CDs, and
> installed using the former. Then you needed to load the firmware from
> somewhere, and wanted to use the other CD as the source.

You understand correctly. (I acknowledge a newbie misunderstanding of the firmware image.)

> Almost nobody finds themselves in this situation, nor are they intended
> to. The idea is that you put any non-included drivers, whether they're
> from Debian or elsewhere, onto a USB stick (or SD card, or whatever),
> which you can insert at any time. (If it's already inserted, it won't
> be asked for.)

Aha! - put the drivers on a /different/ media type, so the script does not need to relinquish the CD drive. Fair enough (acknowledging another newbie glitch). Thanks for the explanation in terms even a simpleton can grasp. That disposes of my second question, about the installation script (but the two-part philosophical/operational question remains).

>>>> (If the choice of images seems too complicated, that's only because it is.)  For
>>>> example, just look at the pages:
>>>> ...
>>>> cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/
>>>> cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/10.3.0+nonfree/amd64/iso-cd/
>>>>
>>>> Two pages to serve the same purpose is too much churn.
>>>
>>> except they do NOT serve the same purpose.  I've got machines with
>>> Intel 32 and 64 bit CPUs.  The /multi-arch/ image works for both; the
>>> /amd64/ will work only on an Intel 64 bit cpu.
>>
>> Quite right; I was careless. That said, Debian targets many architectures. The special case of x64 evolving out of the x86 instruction set has made x86/x64 a common joint target (as opposed to other architectures), which my carelessness ignored.
>>
>> Maybe, though, a case can be made for more formal regularity to highlight /intentional/ distinctions. For example,
>>   - Should the x86/x64 distribution be under a directory tree "/images/.." while the the x86/x64 distribution is under a directory tree "/cdimage/.."? (Surely that is a distinction without intent or motivation?)
>>   - Could the two pages have page *titles* to highlight their distinct purposes [the usual reason for page titles ;-)]?
>>   - Could they be handled on a single page, along with other architecture targets (assuming a suitably clear and compact format - like a table?)?
> 
> I have no idea whether this is true, but there might be some intention
> of evolving from cdimage to images, if only because using the term CD
> to cover DVDs and USB sticks etc is confusing to some, according to
> some posts here.

It /is/ true, but I like your speculation that the directory branch "cdimage" might evolve into the branch "images". However, of course both branches are under the subdomain _"cdimage"_[.debian.org], FWIW. Once I feel comfortable that I have a working grasp of the issues, I will write to the Debian CD team for comment (and possibly to see if I can assist).


>>>> ... I'm taking a lesson from this: some cleanup is in order.
>>>
>>> Whereas I think the issue is that most linux documentation assumes too
>>> much background knowledge.  But I suppose that's what the mailing
>>> lists are for - a shortcut for finding out what info you're missing :)
>>
>> That's a good point, but I actually don't mind the OS learning curve ... My questions here have been about the Debian ecosystem and installation quirks, and I think I have learned some things that could be tidied up to make life simpler (which, among other things, could only help my objective of offering people a Windows escape route). With all the help received on this list, I have learned a meta-lesson: that the place to explore those apparent 'lessons learned' is with the Debian CD team.
> 
> I would agree that the paths through the web pages might be made a bit
> more logical; not just the ISOs but also the md5sums etc. But I
> imagine the d-i people have a lot on their (few) hands keeping up
> with building the d-i software itself (if indeed it's the same people
> responsible).

I don't doubt that, David. Still, I think I might contribute something, and the answers here contribute to that thought.

Thanks,
John

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#219665

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sb, 29 feb 20, 21:45:48, John Kaufmann wrote:
> 
> I have to agree with that script: a Thinkpad without wifi could fairly 
> be called a non-working system... which comes back to my two-part 
> first question, about the philosophical/operational aspect of the 
> "free" commitment:
>  - Is it a choice between a free non-working system or a non-free 
>  working system?

According to the Social Contract[1] the Debian system is free (as in 
freedom).

In the case of firmware this is achieved by providing it (as a service 
to its users) from the non-official part of the archive.

>  - Are OEM hardware drivers by definition "non-free"?

Not necessarily. Many free drivers in the kernel are contributed by the 
OEMs, including Intel, AMD, etc.

Some hardware requires "firmware" in addition to the driver. As far as I 
understand most firmware is just pre-compiled software provided as is, 
without source, which automatically makes it non-free (even if freely
distributable).

Some hardware has free firmware (see firmware-linux-free and the other 
packages in the 'main' archive) and some don't require external firmware 
at all[2].

Debian's position on non-free firmware is making things more difficult 
for owners of specific hardware. Hopefully this works as an incentive to 
consider hardware with better free software support on their next 
purchase.

[1] https://www.debian.org/social_contract

[2] in most cases[3] this is arguably even worse than requiring external 
non-free firmware, because the hardware still uses some firmware stored 
internally which is very difficult or even impossible to upgrade.

[3] as far as I understand there are pieces of hardware that don't need 
any kind of firmware, external or internal.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#219676

On Sat 29 Feb 2020 at 21:45:48 (-0500), John Kaufmann wrote:
> On 2020-02-29 20:20, David Wright wrote:
> > On Thu 27 Feb 2020 at 17:13:26 (-0500), John Kaufmann wrote:
> > > On 2020-02-27 09:41, Lee wrote:
> > > 
> > > [The free/non-free distinction] ... is well-explained, and in fuzzy principle I like the explanation. In functional terms, it only became an issue for me when the image I was installing paused to ask for a disk with needed wifi drivers. (See the thread title.) So I have two problems with free/non-free - one philosophical/operational, one regarding the image installation script:
> > > 
> > >   1) If one can only make a working system with "non-free" drivers, what is the alternative? - a non-working system? What is the point of being a stickler about a "free" installation if that installation itself /requests/ "non-free" components? [Are all OEM hardware drivers by definition "non-free"?]
> > 
> > The premise of your question is wrong. None of my three desktop
> > machines needs any non-free driver. One uses a firmware blob for
> > sound, which it never saw until it was 12 years old when I ditched
> > its predecessor, a Tucson mobo'd PC. I don't think Debian has ever
> > carried it (Yamaha ymfpci) in the timespan over which I've used it.
> 
> But (as noted above) the "free" installation paused to /ask/ for wifi drivers for my Thinkpad, from "non-free" media:
> 
> > "If you have such media available now, insert it and continue."
> 
> I have to agree with that script: a Thinkpad without wifi could fairly be called a non-working system... which comes back to my two-part first question, about the philosophical/operational aspect of the "free" commitment:
>  - Is it a choice between a free non-working system or a non-free working system?
>  - Are OEM hardware drivers by definition "non-free"?

OK, I was talking about systems in general. Once you're looking at a
specific system, particularly a laptop, then it's much more likely that
you'll need either some non-free drivers or at least some non-free
firmware to get a fully functioning system. AFAICT my laptops are only
using firmware that's non-free, but that might be because even the
newest is over 6 years old, so there's been time for free drivers
to be acquired or written.

As every computer I've ever run has either been a loan or inherited,
I don't get to choose the hardware I have to deal with. In the past
I was given a Zyxel G302 wireless card, with which I could only use
a windows driver in ndiswrapper, but I don't use that now because
Powerlines work better.

But there are people here who post suggestions for hardware items that
have free drivers available, if that's a major concern of yours. They
seem to be items that I don't usually see in shops, so they probably
have to be ordered online.

> > I have no idea whether this is true, but there might be some intention
> > of evolving from cdimage to images, if only because using the term CD
> > to cover DVDs and USB sticks etc is confusing to some, according to
> > some posts here.
> 
> It /is/ true, but I like your speculation that the directory branch "cdimage" might evolve into the branch "images". However, of course both branches are under the subdomain _"cdimage"_[.debian.org], FWIW. Once I feel comfortable that I have a working grasp of the issues, I will write to the Debian CD team for comment (and possibly to see if I can assist).
> 
> 
> > > > > ... I'm taking a lesson from this: some cleanup is in order.
> > > > 
> > > > Whereas I think the issue is that most linux documentation assumes too
> > > > much background knowledge.  But I suppose that's what the mailing
> > > > lists are for - a shortcut for finding out what info you're missing :)
> > > 
> > > That's a good point, but I actually don't mind the OS learning curve ... My questions here have been about the Debian ecosystem and installation quirks, and I think I have learned some things that could be tidied up to make life simpler (which, among other things, could only help my objective of offering people a Windows escape route). With all the help received on this list, I have learned a meta-lesson: that the place to explore those apparent 'lessons learned' is with the Debian CD team.
> > 
> > I would agree that the paths through the web pages might be made a bit
> > more logical; not just the ISOs but also the md5sums etc. But I
> > imagine the d-i people have a lot on their (few) hands keeping up
> > with building the d-i software itself (if indeed it's the same people
> > responsible).
> 
> I don't doubt that, David. Still, I think I might contribute something, and the answers here contribute to that thought.

That would probably be much appreciated.

Cheers,
David.

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#219524

On 2020-02-26 22:20, Lee wrote:
> On 2/26/20, John Kaufmann <kaufmann@nb.net> wrote:
>> For my Thinkpad, I burned CDs with:
>> 	(1) debian-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>> 	(2) firmware-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso
>> and	(3) firmware-edu-10.3.0-amd64-netinst.iso [just in case]
>>
>> A. Disk (1) begins without problem, then stops for wifi firmware:
> 
> Try it with one of the non-free network install ISOs from
> https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/current/multi-arch/iso-cd/
> 
> My first try installing Debian was with an 'official' install DVD & I
> had to find an ethernet cable to make a connection because wifi
> wouldn't work :(
> 
> Maybe they've got instructions somewhere that somebody understands to
> get all the hardware on their machine working..  me?  I went with the
> "unofficial alternative build includes non-free firmware for extra
> support for some awkward hardware." and didn't have any problems.

Really?! - it's just that simple? I appreciate your answer, Lee, but I feel really stupid: In an earlier thread ["jigdo error"] Thomas Schmitt recommended (1) above and Andrei Popescu recommended (2) - which I thought was just to fill in the hardware drivers as needed for the disk (1) install.  So yes, I used (2), and it went without a hitch -- almost feels too easy, like I should do some kind of penance for such an easy setup. But, looking ahead in the thread to Peter Ehlert's answer, I see that things get more (and unnecessarily) complicated.

Thanks,
John

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