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Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome

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  Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2020-02-21 12:20 +0100
    Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> - 2020-02-21 12:40 +0100
      Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2020-02-21 13:10 +0100
        Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2020-02-21 13:30 +0100
          Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2020-02-21 13:50 +0100
            Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2020-02-21 14:50 +0100
      Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2020-02-21 15:40 +0100
        Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2020-02-21 15:50 +0100
          Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> - 2020-02-21 18:10 +0100
            Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2020-02-21 23:40 +0100
    Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2020-02-21 13:10 +0100
      Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2020-02-21 13:20 +0100
        Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2020-02-21 13:50 +0100
    Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk> - 2020-02-21 13:20 +0100
      Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2020-02-21 13:30 +0100
    Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-02-21 16:40 +0100
      Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2020-02-21 18:30 +0100
        Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-02-21 19:10 +0100
          Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2020-02-21 19:50 +0100
            Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2020-02-21 20:30 +0100
            Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2020-02-21 20:30 +0100
    Re: Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2020-02-21 23:50 +0100

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#219287 — Choice of "mailname" for mail server: suggestions welcome

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I am preparing servers to use with OpenSMTPD and Sympa to provide mail and
mailing list service.

I need to settle on names to define as the "mailname" for each the two
servers I will designate for the DNS MX records for all my mail-enabled
domains. The mailnames should be "fully qualified domain names" (FQDNs) so
they will have names like:

+ mail.example.com
+ smtp.example.com
+ mx.example.com

Does anyone have strong reasons to use one over another, or any other
choice?

Thanks for any help.

Best regards,

-Tom

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#219288

On 2/21/2020 12:09 PM, Tom Browder wrote:
> I am preparing servers to use with OpenSMTPD and Sympa to provide mail and
> mailing list service.
>
> I need to settle on names to define as the "mailname" for each the two
> servers I will designate for the DNS MX records for all my mail-enabled
> domains. The mailnames should be "fully qualified domain names" (FQDNs) so
> they will have names like:
>
> + mail.example.com
> + smtp.example.com
> + mx.example.com
>
> Does anyone have strong reasons to use one over another, or any other
> choice?
>

I might be missing something here but the domain name is what you
buy/what you get.

If your planning to use split DNS, 'internal' and 'external' could be
one option.

For the lists, 'lists.example.com' might not be a bad idea.

You can also use cname record to point to the same thing.

--
John Doe

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#219289

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On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 05:39 john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> wrote:
...

> I might be missing something here but the domain name is what you
> buy/what you get.


Note I own (techically it's more of a rental or lease) multiple domains
hosted across multiple servers which I also fully control (no sharing, full
root control).

As I understand it, a mail server has to use smtp to physically transfer
mail between physical hosts and that requires one name that will resolve to
an IP. Even if the server is hosting multiple domains, the mail for each
still has to use the one "mailname" for transport.

Hence my original question.

-Tom

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#219294

On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 06:00:14 -0600
Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 05:39 john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> wrote:
> ...
> 
> > I might be missing something here but the domain name is what you
> > buy/what you get.  
> 
> 
> Note I own (techically it's more of a rental or lease) multiple
> domains hosted across multiple servers which I also fully control (no
> sharing, full root control).
> 
> As I understand it, a mail server has to use smtp to physically
> transfer mail between physical hosts and that requires one name that
> will resolve to an IP. Even if the server is hosting multiple
> domains, the mail for each still has to use the one "mailname" for
> transport.

Not really, you can have an A record for each domain, with the MX
record for each domain pointing to its 'own' A record. The only common
feature must be the IP address that the A records point to.

You may well have only one PTR record for the address, although
multiple PTRs on one address are valid, but not many ISPs make provision
for that.

> 
> Hence my original question.
> 

I don't really see any reason either way, you can call it
fred.example.com if you wish, as long as the MX records point to it.

You may well have multiple A records for the address, anyway. An
important feature of a mail server is a complementary A-PTR pair, and
not all ISPs allow user setting of the PTR. So you may well have an
A-PTR pair on the IP address, both supplied by the ISP, which bear no
relation to any of your domain names. No problem.

If you have external account users, they will need to set up addresses
for both SMTP and IMAP/POP, and it is slightly more convenient to use
the one name for both, and 'mail' will then be more suitable. It's only
when you get fancy, with separate incoming and outgoing servers, that
you need distinct and meaningful names.

-- 
Joe

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#219295

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On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 06:29 Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 06:00:14 -0600
> Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> wrote:

...

> > As I understand it, a mail server has to use smtp to physically
> > transfer mail between physical hosts and that requires one name that
> > will resolve to an IP. Even if the server is hosting multiple
> > domains, the mail for each still has to use the one "mailname" for
> > transport.
>
> Not really, you can have an A record for each domain, with the MX
> record for each domain pointing to its 'own' A record. The only common
> feature must be the IP address that the A records point to.
>
> You may well have only one PTR record for the address, although
> multiple PTRs on one address are valid, but not many ISPs make provision
> for that.
>

Interesting--I would prefer that. So with all mail stuff on one server, I
can have each domain's MX record point to its own mail server. And I do
have control of the PTR record. I just need to ensure everything resolves
to the correct host IP.

So how does all that jibe with the single name required by OpenSMPTD?

Thanks, Joe.

-Tom

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#219297

On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 06:46:59 -0600
Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 06:29 Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 06:00:14 -0600
> > Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> wrote:  
> 
> ...
> 
> > > As I understand it, a mail server has to use smtp to physically
> > > transfer mail between physical hosts and that requires one name
> > > that will resolve to an IP. Even if the server is hosting multiple
> > > domains, the mail for each still has to use the one "mailname" for
> > > transport.  
> >
> > Not really, you can have an A record for each domain, with the MX
> > record for each domain pointing to its 'own' A record. The only
> > common feature must be the IP address that the A records point to.
> >
> > You may well have only one PTR record for the address, although
> > multiple PTRs on one address are valid, but not many ISPs make
> > provision for that.
> >  
> 
> Interesting--I would prefer that. So with all mail stuff on one
> server, I can have each domain's MX record point to its own mail
> server. And I do have control of the PTR record. I just need to
> ensure everything resolves to the correct host IP.
> 
> So how does all that jibe with the single name required by OpenSMPTD?
> 

Don't know, I'm not familiar with that. But mail server software
shouldn't need to know anything about the DNS records used to route SMTP
mail to it. If so configured, it will look up DNS records of senders,
but not generally its own.

Exim4 has a default mailname, but to the best of my knowledge, it is
used only in the HELO/EHLO banner, and can be overridden for multiple
domains. HELO/EHLO is used to identify the server in logs, and need not
have any relationship to any email domain handled by the server, and is
often (incorrectly) configured as a bare domain name. It is best
configured to the same FQDN that the domain's primary MX record holds.

It is certainly supposed to be a FQDN, and it does need to be
resolvable in public DNS. My mail server, like most, is configured to
reject email from a sender whose HELO is not resolvable, and
particularly those whose HELO appears to be my own domain or public IP
address (yes, some malware does that). DNS servers aren't really
supposed to resolve bare domain names, but most do, aliasing to the
'www' A record, because many people are too lazy to type 'www' in what
should be a web FQDN.

-- 
Joe

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#219299

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 12:38:45PM +0100, john doe wrote:
> On 2/21/2020 12:09 PM, Tom Browder wrote:
> > I am preparing servers to use with OpenSMTPD and Sympa to provide mail and
> > mailing list service.
> >
> > I need to settle on names to define as the "mailname" for each the two
> > servers I will designate for the DNS MX records for all my mail-enabled
> > domains. The mailnames should be "fully qualified domain names" (FQDNs) so
> > they will have names like:
> >
> > + mail.example.com
> > + smtp.example.com
> > + mx.example.com
> >
> > Does anyone have strong reasons to use one over another, or any other
> > choice?
> >
> 
> I might be missing something here but the domain name is what you
> buy/what you get.
> 
> If your planning to use split DNS, 'internal' and 'external' could be
> one option.
> 
> For the lists, 'lists.example.com' might not be a bad idea.
> 
> You can also use cname record to point to the same thing.
> 
> --
> John Doe
>


Don't do THAT!

RFC2181 section 10.3 says you can't point your MX record to a CNAME

-H


-- 
Henning Follmann           | hfollmann@itcfollmann.com

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#219300

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On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 08:37 Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com>
wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 12:38:45PM +0100, john doe wrote:

...

> Don't do THAT!
>
> RFC2181 section 10.3 says you can't point your MX record to a CNAME
>

Maybe that's why Namecheap has the MXE record that points to an IP.

Besides the relevant RFCs, can anyone recommend a good book that covers all
this. I have a couple of the O'Reilly books on "Postfix" and "DNS and Bind"
and I am going back to refresh myself, but any other recs?

Thanks.

-Tom

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#219303

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 08:47:36AM -0600, Tom Browder wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 08:37 Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 12:38:45PM +0100, john doe wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> > Don't do THAT!
> >
> > RFC2181 section 10.3 says you can't point your MX record to a CNAME
> >
> 
> Maybe that's why Namecheap has the MXE record that points to an IP.
> 
> Besides the relevant RFCs, can anyone recommend a good book that covers all
> this. I have a couple of the O'Reilly books on "Postfix" and "DNS and Bind"
> and I am going back to refresh myself, but any other recs?
>

For years I operated a couple of sendmail installations. That and the
O'Reilly Sendmail book tought me a lot.
Today I prefer postfix. There is a german book from Peer Heinlein.
This is an excellent source if you want to set up a multidomain
mailserver completely driven by a LDAP directory.

-H

-- 
Henning Follmann           | hfollmann@itcfollmann.com

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#219312

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 11:04 AM Henning Follmann
<hfollmann@itcfollmann.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 08:47:36AM -0600, Tom Browder wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 08:37 Henning Follmann <hfollmann@itcfollmann.com>
...
> For years I operated a couple of sendmail installations. That and the
> O'Reilly Sendmail book tought me a lot.
> Today I prefer postfix. There is a german book from Peer Heinlein.
> This is an excellent source if you want to set up a multidomain
> mailserver completely driven by a LDAP directory.

That got some good reviews--sorry my old German-speaking roommate is not nearby.

Thanks, Henning.

-Tom

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#219290

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Hi tom,

Quoting Tom Browder (2020-02-21 12:09:47)
> I am preparing servers to use with OpenSMTPD and Sympa to provide mail 
> and mailing list service.
> 
> I need to settle on names to define as the "mailname" for each the two 
> servers I will designate for the DNS MX records for all my 
> mail-enabled domains. The mailnames should be "fully qualified domain 
> names" (FQDNs) so they will have names like:
> 
> + mail.example.com
> + smtp.example.com
> + mx.example.com
> 
> Does anyone have strong reasons to use one over another, or any other 
> choice?

Depends on the purpose of the name(s).

If you run everything on a single host, then mail.example.com.

If you need to distinguish mail routing from other tasks (e.g. when 
running a spam filter on a different host and you want to tell other 
smtp servers to deliver to that instead of directly to your main mail 
server), then mx.example.com (or mx1.example.com) for that.

Similar for other names: Use protocol or other special name to emphasize 
that service, otherwise it is more confusing than helping.

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#219292

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On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 06:00 Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> wrote:

> Hi tom,
>
...

> > Does anyone have strong reasons to use one over another, or any other
>
> choice?
>
...

> Depends on the purpose of the name(s).

...

Thanks, Jonas, that makes good sense. Based on that I should use "mail" and
maybe "mail2" for my backup mail server.

One of the reasons I asked was I know Gmail used to use something like "
smtp.gmail.com" for its smtp server and thought that might be popular among
sysadmins with such servers.

-Tom

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#219296

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Quoting Tom Browder (2020-02-21 13:17:52)
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 06:00 Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> wrote:
> 
> > Hi tom,
> >
> ...
> 
> > > Does anyone have strong reasons to use one over another, or any other
> >
> > choice?
> >
> ...
> 
> > Depends on the purpose of the name(s).
> 
> ...
> 
> Thanks, Jonas, that makes good sense. Based on that I should use 
> "mail" and maybe "mail2" for my backup mail server.

Only if by "backup" you mean mirror of mail services generally - i.e. 
also for your users to connect to for fetching their mail when the 
primary server is down.

Otherwise, if you mean MX backup then I would use "mx2" for the backup 
host (and I would then consider naming the primary host _both_ "mail" 
and "mx1" so that I can use "mx1" and "mx2" for MX records.


> One of the reasons I asked was I know Gmail used to use something like 
> " smtp.gmail.com" for its smtp server and thought that might be 
> popular among sysadmins with such servers.

Lots of names are popular for various reasons.

Google has numerous hosts serving specifc services, likely with failover 
so that one hostname is even used for multiple hosts behind the scenes.

So if your setup is complex, then name each service, and number it too.

...but if you want simplicity, then beware that for each hostname you 
may (now or later) need to fumble with TLS certificates and/or DNSSEC 
signing keys.

...and beware that your users are not helped by hosts named by services 
but will likely find it geeky that they need to use "smpt2" to send and 
"pop3" to receive (unless of course they are all geeks, where they might 
prefer hosts named by characters in Tolkien books or Star Wars).


As Michael also mentioned, some mail clients blindly assume the world 
uses specific names for user-facing incoming and outgoing services, and 
probe those names before asking the user.  Personally I have found it 
least confusing for my users to tell them that "the server is 
mail-dot-our-domain for all user-facing services - both incoming and 
outgoing", and I then setup hints for those mail clients that wants to 
auto-configure.

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#219291

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On 21/02/2020 11:09, Tom Browder wrote:
> I am preparing servers to use with OpenSMTPD and Sympa to provide mail 
> and mailing list service.
>
> I need to settle on names to define as the "mailname" for each the two 
> servers I will designate for the DNS MX records for all my 
> mail-enabled domains. The mailnames should be "fully qualified domain 
> names" (FQDNs) so they will have names like:
>
> + mail.example.com <http://mail.example.com>
> + smtp.example.com <http://smtp.example.com>
> + mx.example.com <http://mx.example.com>
>
> Does anyone have strong reasons to use one over another, or any other 
> choice?
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> Best regards,
>
> -Tom
>

I don't know your use case but using 'regular' names like 
smtp.example.com, imap.example.com, pop3.example.com etc, help with the 
auto config processes used on devices, thus making it easier for users 
to setup accounts on their devices.

-- 
Michael Howard

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#219293

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On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 06:17 Michael Howard <mike@dewberryfields.co.uk>
wrote:
...

> I don't know your use case but using 'regular' names like smtp.example.com,
> imap.example.com, pop3.example.com etc, help with the auto config
> processes used on devices, thus making it easier for users to setup
> accounts on their devices.
>

I'm not planning on anything at the moment but supporting mailing lists,
but you have a good point for any future expansion.

Thanks, Michael.

-Tom

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#219302

On Fri 21 Feb 2020 at 05:09:47 -0600, Tom Browder wrote:

> I am preparing servers to use with OpenSMTPD and Sympa to provide mail and
> mailing list service.
> 
> I need to settle on names to define as the "mailname" for each the two
> servers I will designate for the DNS MX records for all my mail-enabled
> domains. The mailnames should be "fully qualified domain names" (FQDNs) so
> they will have names like:
> 
> + mail.example.com
> + smtp.example.com
> + mx.example.com
> 
> Does anyone have strong reasons to use one over another, or any other
> choice?

I wouldn't use any of those with Exim because I am aware of the function
of /etc/mailname in its sending of mail. What does /etc/mailname do on
OpenSMTPD?

-- 
Brian.

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#219304

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On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 09:36 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:

> On Fri 21 Feb 2020 at 05:09:47 -0600, Tom Browder wrote:
>
...
| > I need to settle on names to define as the "mailname" for each the two

> > servers I will designate for the DNS MX records for all my mail-enabled
> > domains. The mailnames should be "fully qualified domain names" (FQDNs)
> so
>
...

> I wouldn't use any of those with Exim because I am aware of the function
> of /etc/mailname in its sending of mail. What does /etc/mailname do on
> OpenSMTPD?


The source of my info is in this link:


https://poolp.org/posts/2019-09-14/setting-up-a-mail-server-with-opensmtpd-dovecot-and-rspamd/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

-Tom

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#219305

On Fri 21 Feb 2020 at 11:22:58 -0600, Tom Browder wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 09:36 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri 21 Feb 2020 at 05:09:47 -0600, Tom Browder wrote:
> >
> ...
> | > I need to settle on names to define as the "mailname" for each the two
> 
> > > servers I will designate for the DNS MX records for all my mail-enabled
> > > domains. The mailnames should be "fully qualified domain names" (FQDNs)
> > so
> >
> ...
> 
> > I wouldn't use any of those with Exim because I am aware of the function
> > of /etc/mailname in its sending of mail. What does /etc/mailname do on
> > OpenSMTPD?
> 
> 
> The source of my info is in this link:
> 
> 
> https://poolp.org/posts/2019-09-14/setting-up-a-mail-server-with-opensmtpd-dovecot-and-rspamd/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Thanks, I will read the page in detail later. Meanwhile, I did a quick
search on the page for "mailname" and didn't get anything. Anyway, what
I really wanted to know was what function *you* thought /etc/mailname
played in OpenSMTPD because it would determine what you chose for it.

On Exim it is used to qualify a local part without a domain name. After
I installed OpenSMTPD it seems to me that this is also what OpenSMTPD
does. In other words, if I had mailname as gmail.com, a mail I send to
tombrowder (no domain name) would go to tombrowder@gmail.com.

Apologies if I have missed the point and this is something you have
factored into your planning.

-- 
Brian.

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#219306

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 12:05 PM Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri 21 Feb 2020 at 11:22:58 -0600, Tom Browder wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 09:36 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
...
> Thanks, I will read the page in detail later. Meanwhile, I did a quick
> search on the page for "mailname" and didn't get anything. Anyway, what
> I really wanted to know was what function *you* thought /etc/mailname
> played in OpenSMTPD because it would determine what you chose for it.
>
> On Exim it is used to qualify a local part without a domain name. After
> I installed OpenSMTPD it seems to me that this is also what OpenSMTPD
> does. In other words, if I had mailname as gmail.com, a mail I send to
> tombrowder (no domain name) would go to tombrowder@gmail.com.

Brian, you may be right. I cannot find anything in the man pages, but
it may have been stated during the installation of the Debian package.
I'll uninstall and reinstall to see if I can capture the
instructions...

-Tom

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#219308

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 12:36 PM Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 12:05 PM Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
> > Thanks, I will read the page in detail later. Meanwhile, I did a quick
> > search on the page for "mailname" and didn't get anything. Anyway, what
> > I really wanted to know was what function *you* thought /etc/mailname
> > played in OpenSMTPD because it would determine what you chose for it.
> >
> > On Exim it is used to qualify a local part without a domain name. After
> > I installed OpenSMTPD it seems to me that this is also what OpenSMTPD
> > does. In other words, if I had mailname as gmail.com, a mail I send to
> > tombrowder (no domain name) would go to tombrowder@gmail.com.
>
> Brian, you may be right. I cannot find anything in the man pages, but
> it may have been stated during the installation of the Debian package.
> I'll uninstall and reinstall to see if I can capture the
> instructions...

Okay, here are the instructions, just as you said:

The "mail name" is used as the domain name in the email address for
messages that only have a "local part" (such as
  │ <jrandomuser> or <root>). It should be a fully qualified domain
name (FQDN) that you are entitled to use.
  │
  │ For instance, to allow the local host to generate mail with
addresses such as <jrandomuser@example.org>, set the
  │ system mail name to "example.org".

So, I guess I can trust opensmtpd to do the right thing if I set up
its configuration properly. And for the DNS just make every domain
have its own mail server (as long as everything eventually maps the
the correct server IP listening on port 25).

Thanks.

-Tom

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