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useless languages

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  useless languages Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2019-07-12 13:10 +0200
    Re: useless languages Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-07-12 13:10 +0200
      Re: useless languages Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-07-12 13:40 +0200
        Re: useless languages Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-07-12 14:10 +0200
          Don't disable recoomends by default Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-07-12 14:20 +0200
            Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Stephan Seitz <stse+debian@fsing.rootsland.net> - 2019-07-12 14:40 +0200
              Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-07-12 17:20 +0200
                Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2019-07-12 17:30 +0200
                  Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-07-12 19:00 +0200
                Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Urs Thuermann <urs@isnogud.escape.de> - 2019-08-05 23:10 +0200
                  Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-08-05 23:50 +0200
                  Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2019-08-06 07:50 +0200
                    Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-06 12:10 +0200
                  Re: Don't disable recoomends by default <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-08-06 09:40 +0200
                    Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-06 20:50 +0200
                      Re: Don't disable recoomends by default <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-08-07 09:20 +0200
                  Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-06 13:20 +0200
                  Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-06 15:00 +0200
                  Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-06 20:00 +0200
                  Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-08-06 21:50 +0200
            Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-07-12 14:40 +0200
              Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-07-12 17:30 +0200
                Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-07-12 19:20 +0200
                Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-07-12 19:30 +0200
                  Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-07-12 20:00 +0200
                  Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2019-07-12 23:20 +0200
                    Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-07-12 23:40 +0200
                      Re: Don't disable recoomends by default John Crawley <john@bunsenlabs.org> - 2019-07-13 04:00 +0200
                        Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-07-13 04:30 +0200
                          Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Urs Thuermann <urs@isnogud.escape.de> - 2019-08-05 23:10 +0200
                            Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-08-05 23:30 +0200
                    Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-07-12 23:50 +0200
                      Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2019-07-13 06:50 +0200
                    Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-07-13 10:40 +0200
                      Re: Don't disable recoomends by default Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-07-13 14:00 +0200
                    Re: Don't disable recoomends by default mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-08-06 09:40 +0200
    Re: useless languages David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2019-07-13 04:30 +0200
      Re: useless languages Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2019-07-13 09:30 +0200
      Re: useless languages Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2019-07-13 16:30 +0200
    Re: useless localisation files Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2019-07-13 06:40 +0200

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#211293 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 09:13:29AM -0300, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting Reco (2019-07-12 09:01:33)
> > > > Disabling installing Recommends by default also helps a great deal 
> > > > with all those dependencies you don't want.
> > > 
> > > Above may break your system in confusing to debug ways,
> > 
> > Rly? Recommends are called that for a reason.
> 
> Yes, and the reason is well defined: Packages requires in "all but 
> unusual installations." - quoted from Debian Policy §7.2.

This only shows us that one can prove anything by using selective
quoting. Full quote, btw is:

This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency.
The Recommends field should list packages that would be found together
with this one in all but unusual installations.


Therefore Debian Policy explicitly says that Recommends are not
required.


> > If Recommend is actually needed for the correct functioning of the
> > package - it's a bug in a package.
> 
> Wrong.  If a package is possibly to use for any purpose at all, even if 
> exotic and unusual, then it makes sense to recommend instead of depend 
> on a package.

Let's take everyone's favorite package, systemd.
It's Recommends as of stretch are libpam-systemd and dbus.
Both are not required for the OS to boot and systemd to function. Also,
they are optional for the users' login.
Moreover, there's no need for both libpam-systemd and dbus to be
installed on a typical server (be it file server, print server, db
server or a web server).
Of course, if server environment is "exotic and unusual" to someone -
that's an entirely different matter.


> > Recommends are useful sometime, and it's a useful default to install 
> > them. But it comes with the cost and the cost is a dependency bloat.
> 
> Wrong.  Suggests are for packages useful only "sometimes", recommends 
> are for pacakges needed in "all but unusual installations."

See above.

Reco

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#211304 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

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Quoting Reco (2019-07-12 09:34:17)
> On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 09:13:29AM -0300, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > Quoting Reco (2019-07-12 09:01:33)
> > > > > Disabling installing Recommends by default also helps a great 
> > > > > deal with all those dependencies you don't want.
> > > > 
> > > > Above may break your system in confusing to debug ways,
> > > 
> > > Rly? Recommends are called that for a reason.
> > 
> > Yes, and the reason is well defined: Packages requires in "all but 
> > unusual installations." - quoted from Debian Policy §7.2.
> 
> This only shows us that one can prove anything by using selective 
> quoting. Full quote, btw is:
> 
> This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency.
> The Recommends field should list packages that would be found together
> with this one in all but unusual installations.
> 
> 
> Therefore Debian Policy explicitly says that Recommends are not
> required.

Sorry if you feel that I mislead you by quoting narrowly. I fail to 
recognize how your larger quote changes my point of mine, however.

Indeed Debian policy do not _require_ recommendations.  They do however 
recommend to install them except in unusual installations.

Turning off recommendations is saying "this system is unusual in all 
possible ways" which I insist is wrong and bad advice!


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#211309 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

On Fri 12 Jul 2019 at 12:24:49 -0300, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

> Quoting Reco (2019-07-12 09:34:17)
> > On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 09:13:29AM -0300, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > > Quoting Reco (2019-07-12 09:01:33)
> > > > > > Disabling installing Recommends by default also helps a great 
> > > > > > deal with all those dependencies you don't want.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Above may break your system in confusing to debug ways,
> > > > 
> > > > Rly? Recommends are called that for a reason.
> > > 
> > > Yes, and the reason is well defined: Packages requires in "all but 
> > > unusual installations." - quoted from Debian Policy §7.2.
> > 
> > This only shows us that one can prove anything by using selective 
> > quoting. Full quote, btw is:
> > 
> > This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency.
> > The Recommends field should list packages that would be found together
> > with this one in all but unusual installations.
> > 
> > 
> > Therefore Debian Policy explicitly says that Recommends are not
> > required.
> 
> Sorry if you feel that I mislead you by quoting narrowly. I fail to 
> recognize how your larger quote changes my point of mine, however.
> 
> Indeed Debian policy do not _require_ recommendations.  They do however 
> recommend to install them except in unusual installations.
> 
> Turning off recommendations is saying "this system is unusual in all 
> possible ways" which I insist is wrong and bad advice!

I would like to bore everyone with my activities over the past few days.
There is a thin client; it has one task to do and has 945M of disk space
to do it in. Try it sometime.

I have to carefully read the outputs of 'apt show' and test. The default
package installation is with --no-install-recommends. Tedious and time-
consuming, but I get what I want. Miss a recommendation and I'm stuffed.

Are you an average user? Lots of disk space? Want a trouble-free system?
Stick with the default installing recommended packages advice.

-- 
Brian.

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#211310 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

	Hi.

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 12:24:49PM -0300, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting Reco (2019-07-12 09:34:17)
> > On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 09:13:29AM -0300, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > > Quoting Reco (2019-07-12 09:01:33)
> > > > > > Disabling installing Recommends by default also helps a great 
> > > > > > deal with all those dependencies you don't want.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Above may break your system in confusing to debug ways,
> > > > 
> > > > Rly? Recommends are called that for a reason.
> > > 
> > > Yes, and the reason is well defined: Packages requires in "all but 
> > > unusual installations." - quoted from Debian Policy §7.2.
> > 
> > This only shows us that one can prove anything by using selective 
> > quoting. Full quote, btw is:
> > 
> > This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency.
> > The Recommends field should list packages that would be found together
> > with this one in all but unusual installations.
> > 
> > 
> > Therefore Debian Policy explicitly says that Recommends are not
> > required.
> 
> Sorry if you feel that I mislead you by quoting narrowly.
> I fail to recognize how your larger quote changes my point of mine,
> however.

I see nothing to apologise for. You made some bold claims, I showed they
do not universally apply. Each of us stayed at their respective
opinions, let's leave it at that.


> Indeed Debian policy do not _require_ recommendations.  They do however 
> recommend to install them except in unusual installations.
> Turning off recommendations is saying "this system is unusual in all 
> possible ways" which I insist is wrong and bad advice!

And the key word here is "recommend".
One of the biggest strengths in the Free Software lies in the putting
the user in control.
Mandating to install certain software, assuming that there's only one
"right" way of doing things, using scare tactics like "system is
unusual" - this reeks of non-free software from world-known commercial
entities, and limiting the control of the user over their software.

I say - if the user wants to "break" a system by not installing the
Recommends - let them. Whenever it's curiosity, a way of learning
something new or just a wish to do an OS liposuction.
Either way it won't break (a hint - Recommends weren't always the
default), or the user will learn something new in a process.

Besides, they don't call Debian the Universal OS for nothing. It can
tolerate the surprising amount of "breakage".

Reco

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#211311 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

On Fri 12 Jul 2019 at 20:21:08 +0300, Reco wrote:

> 	Hi.
> 
> On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 12:24:49PM -0300, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > Quoting Reco (2019-07-12 09:34:17)
> > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 09:13:29AM -0300, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > > > Quoting Reco (2019-07-12 09:01:33)
> > > > > > > Disabling installing Recommends by default also helps a great 
> > > > > > > deal with all those dependencies you don't want.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Above may break your system in confusing to debug ways,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Rly? Recommends are called that for a reason.
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, and the reason is well defined: Packages requires in "all but 
> > > > unusual installations." - quoted from Debian Policy §7.2.
> > > 
> > > This only shows us that one can prove anything by using selective 
> > > quoting. Full quote, btw is:
> > > 
> > > This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency.
> > > The Recommends field should list packages that would be found together
> > > with this one in all but unusual installations.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Therefore Debian Policy explicitly says that Recommends are not
> > > required.
> > 
> > Sorry if you feel that I mislead you by quoting narrowly.
> > I fail to recognize how your larger quote changes my point of mine,
> > however.
> 
> I see nothing to apologise for. You made some bold claims, I showed they
> do not universally apply. Each of us stayed at their respective
> opinions, let's leave it at that.
> 
> > Indeed Debian policy do not _require_ recommendations.  They do however 
> > recommend to install them except in unusual installations.
> > Turning off recommendations is saying "this system is unusual in all 
> > possible ways" which I insist is wrong and bad advice!
> 
> And the key word here is "recommend".
> One of the biggest strengths in the Free Software lies in the putting
> the user in control.

Fine.

> Mandating to install certain software, assuming that there's only one
> "right" way of doing things, using scare tactics like "system is
> unusual" - this reeks of non-free software from world-known commercial
> entities, and limiting the control of the user over their software.

I do not think any of that diatribe is the intention of Policy.

> I say - if the user wants to "break" a system by not installing the
> Recommends - let them. Whenever it's curiosity, a way of learning
> something new or just a wish to do an OS liposuction.
> Either way it won't break (a hint - Recommends weren't always the
> default), or the user will learn something new in a process.

That's fine too.
 
> Besides, they don't call Debian the Universal OS for nothing. It can
> tolerate the surprising amount of "breakage".

mc recommends unzip. The OS will get along perfectly well without it.
It's the user who who has to tolerate the breakage.

-- 
Brian.
> 
> Reco
> 

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#211317 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

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On Vi, 12 iul 19, 20:21:08, Reco wrote:
> 
> I say - if the user wants to "break" a system by not installing the
> Recommends - let them. Whenever it's curiosity, a way of learning
> something new or just a wish to do an OS liposuction.

Sure.

Still, I would avoid recommending (ha!) turning off Recommends except if 
a poster has a specific problem that might be solved by it (e.g. space 
constraints).

> Either way it won't break (a hint - Recommends weren't always the
> default), or the user will learn something new in a process.

I'm pretty sure Jonas was around when that happened ;)

> Besides, they don't call Debian the Universal OS for nothing. It can
> tolerate the surprising amount of "breakage".

This is not about "breaking" Debian, but confusing the user (why does mc 
open gziped files, but not zip?)

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#211318 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

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Quoting Andrei POPESCU (2019-07-12 18:17:49)
> On Vi, 12 iul 19, 20:21:08, Reco wrote:
> > I say - if the user wants to "break" a system by not installing the 
> > Recommends - let them. Whenever it's curiosity, a way of learning 
> > something new or just a wish to do an OS liposuction.
> 
> Sure.
> 
> Still, I would avoid recommending (ha!) turning off Recommends except 
> if a poster has a specific problem that might be solved by it (e.g. 
> space constraints).
> 
> > Either way it won't break (a hint - Recommends weren't always the 
> > default), or the user will learn something new in a process.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Jonas was around when that happened ;)

Right: When APT was introduced, the command-line tool apt-get was 
initially intended only as a demo of what the engine could do and lacked 
some features - most notably it had a bug so that it wrongly treated all 
recommends same as suggests.

Personally I didn't notice that because I switched to using the far more 
powerful APT frontend aptitude when that emerged, but apt-get was 
popular and some developers wrongly thought that recommends was same as 
suggests and therefore used depends far more than really needed.

The bug got fixed, and slowly developers learned to make proper use of 
recommends as it was always intended.


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#211327 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

On 2019-07-13 06:39, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> ...some developers wrongly thought that recommends was same as
> suggests and therefore used depends far more than really needed.

This. Installing with Recommends used to pull in a whole slew of things 
that should have been Suggests, so users got into the habit of 
installing without.

 > The bug got fixed, and slowly developers learned to make proper use of
 > recommends as it was always intended.

Most developers anyway.

I remember when Debian systems started installing Recommends /by 
default/ - and there was an outcry - but was this a fixed bug in apt-get 
itself? Wasn't Debian Policy also amended a bit at that point to make 
the purpose of Recommends clearer? Or had it always been that way...

Anyway, even if your system default is to install Recommends, apt-get 
(and apt too?) always gets user approval before installing anything 
beyond the package asked for. If the list looks too long (s)he can 
always hit (N) and try again with
'apt-get install --no-install-recommends <package>'

-- 
John

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#211329 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

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Quoting John Crawley (2019-07-12 22:52:55)
> On 2019-07-13 06:39, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > ...some developers wrongly thought that recommends was same as 
> > suggests and therefore used depends far more than really needed.
> 
> This. Installing with Recommends used to pull in a whole slew of 
> things that should have been Suggests, so users got into the habit of 
> installing without.
> 
>  > The bug got fixed, and slowly developers learned to make proper use 
>  > of recommends as it was always intended.
> 
> Most developers anyway.
> 
> I remember when Debian systems started installing Recommends /by 
> default/ - and there was an outcry - but was this a fixed bug in 
> apt-get itself? Wasn't Debian Policy also amended a bit at that point 
> to make the purpose of Recommends clearer? Or had it always been that 
> way...

Yes, it was a bugfix: Before the change apt-get was _broken_ and after 
the change apt-get behaved as intended.

Yes, there has over the years been various edits to Policy which only 
clarified existing meaning, without changing any meaning - including 
clarifications to what "Recommends" means.

Yes, some interpreted things differently and wanted back the "good old 
days" - despite being unintended and undocumented and suboptimal.

Yes, some developers took quite some time to adapt to the "new" reality 
of a properly working apt-get - and possibly some developers still are 
living in a bubble.  I hope not.


> Anyway, even if your system default is to install Recommends, apt-get 
> (and apt too?) always gets user approval before installing anything 
> beyond the package asked for. If the list looks too long (s)he can 
> always hit (N) and try again with 'apt-get install 
> --no-install-recommends <package>'

...and suppressing recommends exeptionally like that is quite sensible.

Again, my strong criticism is only suppressing recommends by *default*.


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#212278 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> writes:

> Quoting John Crawley (2019-07-12 22:52:55)
> 
> > Anyway, even if your system default is to install Recommends, apt-get 
> > (and apt too?) always gets user approval before installing anything 
> > beyond the package asked for. If the list looks too long (s)he can 
> > always hit (N) and try again with 'apt-get install 
> > --no-install-recommends <package>'
> 
> ...and suppressing recommends exeptionally like that is quite sensible.
> 
> Again, my strong criticism is only suppressing recommends by *default*.

Before I had suppressed recommends by default in apt.conf I *always*
had to hit 'N' and try again with --no-install-recommends, because
everytime "aptitude full-upgrade" (i.e. no new installs) wanted to
install >100 MB, often 300MB+ of packages I don't want.

urs

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#212281 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

On Mon, Aug 05, 2019 at 11:03:53PM +0200, Urs Thuermann wrote:
>Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> writes:
>
>> Quoting John Crawley (2019-07-12 22:52:55)
>>
>> > Anyway, even if your system default is to install Recommends, apt-get
>> > (and apt too?) always gets user approval before installing anything
>> > beyond the package asked for. If the list looks too long (s)he can
>> > always hit (N) and try again with 'apt-get install
>> > --no-install-recommends <package>'
>>
>> ...and suppressing recommends exeptionally like that is quite sensible.
>>
>> Again, my strong criticism is only suppressing recommends by *default*.
>
>Before I had suppressed recommends by default in apt.conf I *always*
>had to hit 'N' and try again with --no-install-recommends, because
>everytime "aptitude full-upgrade" (i.e. no new installs) wanted to
>install >100 MB, often 300MB+ of packages I don't want.

That's why I always user aptitude interactively, it's easy to just 
override when it tells you what it's about to do. These days it's a meh 
issue, not like the bad old days when a recommends was almost as much 
effort to work around as a depends.

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#211319 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

On Sat 13 Jul 2019 at 00:17:49 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

> On Vi, 12 iul 19, 20:21:08, Reco wrote:
> > 
> > I say - if the user wants to "break" a system by not installing the
> > Recommends - let them. Whenever it's curiosity, a way of learning
> > something new or just a wish to do an OS liposuction.
> 
> Sure.
> 
> Still, I would avoid recommending (ha!) turning off Recommends except if 
> a poster has a specific problem that might be solved by it (e.g. space 
> constraints).
> 
> > Either way it won't break (a hint - Recommends weren't always the
> > default), or the user will learn something new in a process.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Jonas was around when that happened ;)
> 
> > Besides, they don't call Debian the Universal OS for nothing. It can
> > tolerate the surprising amount of "breakage".
> 
> This is not about "breaking" Debian, but confusing the user (why does mc 
> open gziped files, but not zip?)

gzip is already on the system (Priority: required), unzip isn't. But a
confused user wouldn't have this in mind. The recommendation is sound.

-- 
Brian.

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#211332 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

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On Vi, 12 iul 19, 22:40:17, Brian wrote:
> On Sat 13 Jul 2019 at 00:17:49 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > 
> > This is not about "breaking" Debian, but confusing the user (why does mc 
> > open gziped files, but not zip?)
> 
> gzip is already on the system (Priority: required), unzip isn't. But a
> confused user wouldn't have this in mind. The recommendation is sound.

Nitpick: mc doesn't need to Depends: or Recommends: gzip because gzip is 
Essential: yes (see Policy 3.5).

For packages that are not Essential: yes an explicit Depends:, 
Recommends: or Suggests: would have to be added, regardless of the other 
package's priority.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#211339 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

On 2019-07-12, Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Either way it won't break (a hint - Recommends weren't always the
>> default), or the user will learn something new in a process.
>
> I'm pretty sure Jonas was around when that happened ;)
>

I've always used apt-get until apt rolled around recently and never
encountered any impediments to the full appreciation of my applications.

Maybe it's because I usually install the kitchen sink anyway.

There is a problem of vocabulary, though, because the difference between
a suggestion and a recommendation is pretty thin, though certainly
existent, and both express the idea of a conscious, deliberate action of
acceptance by the person to whom the recommendation or suggestion is
made (rejection requiring only that he or she not act upon it).
Rendering the following of a recommendation a default needing no user
action whatsoever thus seems to run counter to the denotation of the
term itself.

It surprises me little, given the above, that even some developers were
(or are still) confused about the matter (which someone mentioned
elsewhere in this thread). 

-- 
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” 
― Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

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#211343 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

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Quoting Curt (2019-07-13 05:36:05)
> On 2019-07-12, Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Either way it won't break (a hint - Recommends weren't always the 
> >> default), or the user will learn something new in a process.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure Jonas was around when that happened ;)
> >
> 
> I've always used apt-get until apt rolled around recently and never 
> encountered any impediments to the full appreciation of my 
> applications.
> 
> Maybe it's because I usually install the kitchen sink anyway.
> 
> There is a problem of vocabulary, though, because the difference 
> between a suggestion and a recommendation is pretty thin,

You feel there a problem of vocabolary for the text in Debian Policy 
defining the term, or only when not looking up its definition in the 
context of packages?

If the former then I encourage you to file a friendly bugreport against 
package debian-policy - the maintainers are nice people who appreciates 
suggestions for improving the wording in the text.

If the latter then I am not sure how that can be helped...


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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#212300 — Re: Don't disable recoomends by default

On 2019-07-12 22:17, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Vi, 12 iul 19, 20:21:08, Reco wrote:
>> 
>> I say - if the user wants to "break" a system by not installing the
>> Recommends - let them. Whenever it's curiosity, a way of learning
>> something new or just a wish to do an OS liposuction.
> 
> Sure.
> 
> Still, I would avoid recommending (ha!) turning off Recommends except 
> if
> a poster has a specific problem that might be solved by it (e.g. space
> constraints).
> 
>> Either way it won't break (a hint - Recommends weren't always the
>> default), or the user will learn something new in a process.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Jonas was around when that happened ;)
> 
>> Besides, they don't call Debian the Universal OS for nothing. It can
>> tolerate the surprising amount of "breakage".
> 
> This is not about "breaking" Debian, but confusing the user (why does 
> mc
> open gziped files, but not zip?)
> 
> Kind regards,
> Andrei

Being a user who hasn't read the policy I thought it was.

Requires: "This program won't work without these things."
Recommends: "These things can be called by the program and will improve 
it's functionality."
Suggests: "I see what you are interested in doing. I want to be helpful, 
you don't have installed but have you seen these programs that do things 
in the same area."

mick



-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#211328

On 7/12/19 4:03 AM, Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
> hi,
> when installing some packages (chromiun for example), I get a lot of
> useless languages (task-marathi-desktop task-nepali-desktop ...)
> Is there a way to get rid of them?
> 
> best regards,

I added the following line to my root .profile to prevent apt-get from 
downloading and installing 'recommended' packages;

     alias apt-get='apt-get --no-install-recommends'


david

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#211335

On Fri, 12 Jul 2019, David Christensen wrote:

> On 7/12/19 4:03 AM, Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
>> hi,
>> when installing some packages (chromiun for example), I get a lot of
>> useless languages (task-marathi-desktop task-nepali-desktop ...)
>> Is there a way to get rid of them?
>> 
>> best regards,
>
> I added the following line to my root .profile to prevent apt-get from 
> downloading and installing 'recommended' packages;
>
>    alias apt-get='apt-get --no-install-recommends'

hi David,
thank you for the tip. I'll add that to my .kshrc, where I put all
my aliases

best regards,
-- 
Pierre Frenkiel

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#211346

David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> writes:

> On 7/12/19 4:03 AM, Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
>> hi,
>> when installing some packages (chromiun for example), I get a lot of
>> useless languages (task-marathi-desktop task-nepali-desktop ...)
>> Is there a way to get rid of them?
>>
>> best regards,
>
> I added the following line to my root .profile to prevent apt-get from
> downloading and installing 'recommended' packages;
>
>     alias apt-get='apt-get --no-install-recommends'

There is currently a lengthy thread discussing why this is a bad idea
with the subject "Re: Don't disable recoomends by default"
Even if it were a good idea, the way to do it would be in the
apt configuration, not by aliasing a command.

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#211331 — Re: useless localisation files

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On Vi, 12 iul 19, 13:03:33, Pierre Frenkiel wrote:
> hi,
> when installing some packages (chromiun for example), I get a lot of
> useless languages (task-marathi-desktop task-nepali-desktop ...)

I would argue that no language is useless ;)

The localisation files, specific fonts and spelling dictionaries are 
indeed probably not needed by people not understanding the language.

Please try 'aptitude why task-marathi-desktop' to see why those packages 
are being installed.

> Is there a way to get rid of them?

Typically by uninstalling ;)

What did you try and didn't work?

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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