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Is it possible to install Debian in such a case.

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  Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-10 10:50 +0200
    Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-10 11:00 +0200
      Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-10 11:10 +0200
        Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-05-10 11:30 +0200
          Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-10 11:50 +0200
        Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-05-10 11:40 +0200
          Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-10 12:00 +0200
            Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-05-10 14:20 +0200
              Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-10 16:20 +0200
            Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-05-10 15:30 +0200
        Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-10 11:50 +0200
          Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-05-10 12:10 +0200
            Tinker team (Was: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case.) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-11 01:10 +0200
              Re: Tinker team (Was: Is it possible to install Debian in such a  case.) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-05-11 09:10 +0200
                Re: Tinker team (Was: Is it possible to install Debian in such a  case.) <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-05-11 10:00 +0200
                Re: Tinker team (Was: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case.) Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2019-05-11 10:00 +0200
          Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-10 12:10 +0200
    Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-05-10 12:40 +0200
      Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-05-10 13:00 +0200
        Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-05-10 13:40 +0200
          Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-05-10 13:50 +0200
            Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-05-10 16:00 +0200
              Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-10 16:20 +0200
                Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-05-10 16:30 +0200
                  Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-10 16:40 +0200
                    Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-05-10 17:00 +0200
                      Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-10 17:10 +0200
                        Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-05-10 17:30 +0200
                          Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-10 18:00 +0200
                            Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-05-10 20:10 +0200
              Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-05-10 17:40 +0200
                Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2019-05-10 18:10 +0200
                  Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-05-10 20:40 +0200
                    Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2019-05-10 22:20 +0200
                      Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-05-21 16:50 +0200
    Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2019-05-10 14:50 +0200
      Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-10 16:30 +0200
        Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2019-05-11 08:30 +0200
          Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-11 14:00 +0200
            Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Pascal Hambourg <pascal@plouf.fr.eu.org> - 2019-05-11 15:00 +0200
            Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-05-11 15:20 +0200
              Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-11 22:30 +0200
                Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-05-12 13:00 +0200
    Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-10 17:00 +0200
      Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-05-10 17:10 +0200
        Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-10 17:20 +0200
        Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-05-10 17:30 +0200
          Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-10 17:40 +0200
          Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-05-10 20:30 +0200
            Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-05-11 17:50 +0200
              Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-05-11 19:30 +0200
                Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-05-11 19:50 +0200
                  Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-05-11 20:30 +0200
                Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-05-11 21:50 +0200
                  Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-05-11 23:10 +0200
              Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-06-27 17:30 +0200
                Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-06-27 18:00 +0200
                  Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-06-27 20:20 +0200
                    Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-06-27 23:30 +0200
                      Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-06-28 01:20 +0200
                      Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-06-28 08:20 +0200
                        Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-06-28 09:40 +0200
                        Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-06-28 09:50 +0200
                        Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-06-28 10:50 +0200
                          Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-06-30 01:10 +0200
                            Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2019-06-30 02:10 +0200
                            Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-06-30 02:10 +0200
    Re: Is it possible to install Debian in such a case. An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> - 2019-05-13 00:20 +0200

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#208570

On Sat 11 May 2019 at 07:51:53 -0400, An Liu wrote:

> Hi, Pascal
> > IIRC and although it did not change with Buster, the initrd.gz in
> > installation images does not include the loop module either. So it is
> > not able be able to mount an ISO image.
> 
> Yes, you are right,  neither could i mount ext4 partitions within busybox
> But it is able to mount vfat partition, maybe it's for UEFI?
> 
> Tested with debian-9.9.0-amd64-netinst.iso

Try booting the mini.iso with GRUB's loopback. You might have a pleasant
surprise!

-- 
Brian.

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#208585

> Try booting the mini.iso with GRUB's loopback. You might have a pleasant
> surprise!
>
Yes, boot with GRUB's loopback, I can start debian-installer, impressive!
But it still failed at detect media step. As we can't mount loop devices in busy
box,  if we could extract the contents in this ISO to some place we
could read (
e.g  USB with fat format),  can we continue this installer ?



-- 
Liu An

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#208594

On Sat 11 May 2019 at 16:21:41 -0400, An Liu wrote:

> > Try booting the mini.iso with GRUB's loopback. You might have a pleasant
> > surprise!
> >
> Yes, boot with GRUB's loopback, I can start debian-installer, impressive!

I used the i-386 stretch mini.iso successfully.

> But it still failed at detect media step. As we can't mount loop devices in busy
> box,  if we could extract the contents in this ISO to some place we
> could read (
> e.g  USB with fat format),  can we continue this installer ?

That's a different issue. The kernel, initrd and the udebs in the
archive have to match what is in the ISO. Something somewhere needs
updating.

-- 
Brian.

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#208522

Hi, All,

I'm very happy to see many people try to help, and want to describe
why i have such kind of questions

As all knows,  redhat 8 was announced available serveral days ago, and
i got the DVD iso, and i want to have a try
(for myself i use debian on my pc, but enterprise customs use RHEL/CentOS/SLES )

And i managed  to install it from harddisk

But i'm lazy
1. i don't want extract files from iso
2. i don't want to cp *.iso /dev/sdb  (dd )to destroy my data on USB
stick to make it as install media
3. I have grub
4. i have a spare partition on my PC (say /dev/sda9) to install it

Can we do that?
We have a solution for debian, as mentioned, use hd-media (vmlinuz,
initrd.gz with iso-scan)   in step 2 , so it's not a really a problem

But this should have share the  common ground in installation, isn't?

That's why i post my question here.

FYI

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 2:48 AM An Liu <sourceonly@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, List
>
> Image the following case
>
> What I Have.
> a USB stick with
> 1.  a portable GRUB (either UEFI or legacy)
> 2.  a install ISO, such as debian-9.9.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso (mayb would e
> a LiveCD make life easier?)
>
> What we want.Have Debian installed (could assume that we could do
> whatever we could, such as re-partitation the whole harddisk)
>
>
> The Answer to this question is most probably yes, but how.
>
>
> The work around is to boot with  vmliunz and initrd.gz from
> http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/stretch/main/installer-amd64/current/images/hd-media/
> the cost is very small as these two file size total is less than 20M
>
>
> I wonder if there is a way to finish install only in GRUB, without
> initrd involved
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Liu An



-- 
Liu An

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#208525

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 08:57:20AM -0600, An Liu wrote:
> As all knows,  redhat 8 was announced available serveral days ago, and
> i got the DVD iso, and i want to have a try

> We have a solution for debian, as mentioned, use hd-media (vmlinuz,
> initrd.gz with iso-scan)   in step 2 , so it's not a really a problem
> 
> But this should have share the  common ground in installation, isn't?
> 
> That's why i post my question here.

This makes no sense.  If you want to learn how to install Red Hat, you
should ask a Red Hat mailing list, not a Debian mailing list.

We don't know how to install Red Hat.

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#208527

> This makes no sense.  If you want to learn how to install Red Hat, you
> should ask a Red Hat mailing list, not a Debian mailing list.
>

> We don't know how to install Red Hat.

Yes, That's why I don't ask how to do here but to figure it out, as
talking that is something of topic
I just wonder if Debian could do this way, and asking.

BTW, I don't want to make you sense, if you don't feel comfortable.

-- 
Liu An

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#208530

On Fri 10 May 2019 at 11:04:47 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 08:57:20AM -0600, An Liu wrote:
> > As all knows,  redhat 8 was announced available serveral days ago, and
> > i got the DVD iso, and i want to have a try
> 
> > We have a solution for debian, as mentioned, use hd-media (vmlinuz,
> > initrd.gz with iso-scan)   in step 2 , so it's not a really a problem
> > 
> > But this should have share the  common ground in installation, isn't?
> > 
> > That's why i post my question here.
> 
> This makes no sense.  If you want to learn how to install Red Hat, you
> should ask a Red Hat mailing list, not a Debian mailing list.

We had the dubious pleasure of being invited to assist with a Windows
setup a few days ago:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/05/msg00377.html

Not a squeak of protest from anyone. The poster was "well pleased" with
the help given.

> We don't know how to install Red Hat.

I am not sure An Liu is asking for help with installing Red Hat. 

-- 
Brian.

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#208533

HI, Brian,
> I am not sure An Liu is asking for help with installing Red Hat.

No, because all problem settled.  Cheers.

Actually there is a 'LIVE OS' hidden in RHEL's DVD,  then followed by
switch-root  within a dracut image,
which differs from Debian's installation. I'll look into it if i can
go through with Debian install with busybox :)

Thank you


-- 
Liu An

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#208542

On Fri 10 May 2019 at 16:28:09 (+0100), Brian wrote:
> On Fri 10 May 2019 at 11:04:47 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 08:57:20AM -0600, An Liu wrote:
> > > As all knows,  redhat 8 was announced available serveral days ago, and
> > > i got the DVD iso, and i want to have a try
> > 
> > > We have a solution for debian, as mentioned, use hd-media (vmlinuz,
> > > initrd.gz with iso-scan)   in step 2 , so it's not a really a problem
> > > 
> > > But this should have share the  common ground in installation, isn't?
> > > 
> > > That's why i post my question here.
> > 
> > This makes no sense.  If you want to learn how to install Red Hat, you
> > should ask a Red Hat mailing list, not a Debian mailing list.
> 
> We had the dubious pleasure of being invited to assist with a Windows
> setup a few days ago:
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/05/msg00377.html
> 
> Not a squeak of protest from anyone. The poster was "well pleased" with
> the help given.

I was pissed off, but I bit my tongue. And you can't get a question
about apt answered here:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/05/msg00418.html

> > We don't know how to install Red Hat.
> 
> I am not sure An Liu is asking for help with installing Red Hat. 

I understand that. But, because of the earlier post that I mentioned before,
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/05/msg00032.html
and the thread where you commented on an overlooked paragraph in
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FAQ#Q:_How_can_I_install_sid_.28unstable.29_with_DebianInstaller.3F
I took a look at this page to see if the two ideas were related.
That led me nowhere, but further up this page I did see:

Q: How to install with boot floppies + netinst.iso mounted as a loop
device in the ramdisk from a ext2 partition?

A: You can boot the installer directly from a hard disk using LILO or
GRUB, and the *hd-media initrd* will find your netinst.iso. See the
DebianInstall for details.

which takes you up to the DebianInstall page itself. If there were
any details here about that Q&A, they seem to have gone. The closest
approach to an answer would be Debootstrap, but that has nothing to
do with the netinst.iso.

But it does seem that a recipe to do what's promised by the Q&A
would answer this thread's OP: "Install Debian from Grub+ISO".
I think Greg's reference is the closest approach, but again it
involves debootstrap rather than the d-i. The Q&A implies that
you can jump from Grub into the netinst.iso. The least obvious
part is the *hd-media initrd* referred to above. What and where?

My interest in this stems from a Laptop on which you are blind until
the kernel loads (ie text pours down the screen). No boot selection
menu, no CMOS screens, no Grub screens.

Cheers,
David.

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#208577

On Fri 10 May 2019 at 13:20:39 -0500, David Wright wrote:

> On Fri 10 May 2019 at 16:28:09 (+0100), Brian wrote:
> > 
> > I am not sure An Liu is asking for help with installing Red Hat. 
> 
> I understand that. But, because of the earlier post that I mentioned before,
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/05/msg00032.html
> and the thread where you commented on an overlooked paragraph in
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FAQ#Q:_How_can_I_install_sid_.28unstable.29_with_DebianInstaller.3F
> I took a look at this page to see if the two ideas were related.
> That led me nowhere, but further up this page I did see:
> 
> Q: How to install with boot floppies + netinst.iso mounted as a loop
> device in the ramdisk from a ext2 partition?

"boot floppies"; that's a blast from the past!
 
> A: You can boot the installer directly from a hard disk using LILO or
> GRUB, and the *hd-media initrd* will find your netinst.iso. See the
> DebianInstall for details.

Now augmented to be more useful (hopefully).

> which takes you up to the DebianInstall page itself. If there were
> any details here about that Q&A, they seem to have gone. The closest
> approach to an answer would be Debootstrap, but that has nothing to
> do with the netinst.iso.

I found nothing on the DebianInstall page either and, like you, don't
consider debootstrap comes into it.
 
> But it does seem that a recipe to do what's promised by the Q&A
> would answer this thread's OP: "Install Debian from Grub+ISO".
> I think Greg's reference is the closest approach, but again it
> involves debootstrap rather than the d-i. The Q&A implies that
> you can jump from Grub into the netinst.iso. The least obvious
> part is the *hd-media initrd* referred to above. What and where?

Although it is not abundantly clear, I think An Liu was after a way of
booting a netinst or DVD-1 image using GRUB's loopback device. This is,
as has been said a few times in this thread, not possible using the
initrds of those images.

Quite a few people have asked for the loop module to be added to d-i's
initrd and have even provided patches. Up to now the d-i team have not
provided this facility. loopback with GRUB can be done if the hd-media
initrd is used with the d-i kernel, but it can be a bit fraught.

> My interest in this stems from a Laptop on which you are blind until
> the kernel loads (ie text pours down the screen). No boot selection
> menu, no CMOS screens, no Grub screens.

You are in a bad way. I wouldn't even wish that on those users who see
-user as a Windows support list. :)

-- 
Brian.

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#208578

On Saturday 11 May 2019 11:42:04 am Brian wrote:

> On Fri 10 May 2019 at 13:20:39 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > On Fri 10 May 2019 at 16:28:09 (+0100), Brian wrote:
> > > I am not sure An Liu is asking for help with installing Red Hat.
> >
> > I understand that. But, because of the earlier post that I mentioned
> > before, https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/05/msg00032.html
> > and the thread where you commented on an overlooked paragraph in
> > https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FAQ#Q:_How_can_I_install_sid
> >_.28unstable.29_with_DebianInstaller.3F I took a look at this page to
> > see if the two ideas were related. That led me nowhere, but further
> > up this page I did see:
> >
> > Q: How to install with boot floppies + netinst.iso mounted as a loop
> > device in the ramdisk from a ext2 partition?
>
> "boot floppies"; that's a blast from the past!
>
> > A: You can boot the installer directly from a hard disk using LILO
> > or GRUB, and the *hd-media initrd* will find your netinst.iso. See
> > the DebianInstall for details.
>
> Now augmented to be more useful (hopefully).
>
> > which takes you up to the DebianInstall page itself. If there were
> > any details here about that Q&A, they seem to have gone. The closest
> > approach to an answer would be Debootstrap, but that has nothing to
> > do with the netinst.iso.
>
> I found nothing on the DebianInstall page either and, like you, don't
> consider debootstrap comes into it.
>
> > But it does seem that a recipe to do what's promised by the Q&A
> > would answer this thread's OP: "Install Debian from Grub+ISO".
> > I think Greg's reference is the closest approach, but again it
> > involves debootstrap rather than the d-i. The Q&A implies that
> > you can jump from Grub into the netinst.iso. The least obvious
> > part is the *hd-media initrd* referred to above. What and where?
>
> Although it is not abundantly clear, I think An Liu was after a way of
> booting a netinst or DVD-1 image using GRUB's loopback device. This
> is, as has been said a few times in this thread, not possible using
> the initrds of those images.
>
> Quite a few people have asked for the loop module to be added to d-i's
> initrd and have even provided patches. Up to now the d-i team have not
> provided this facility. loopback with GRUB can be done if the hd-media
> initrd is used with the d-i kernel, but it can be a bit fraught.
>
> > My interest in this stems from a Laptop on which you are blind until
> > the kernel loads (ie text pours down the screen). No boot selection
> > menu, no CMOS screens, no Grub screens.
>
> You are in a bad way. I wouldn't even wish that on those users who see
> -user as a Windows support list. :)

FWIW Brian, i did finally get that "W" box to work this morning. Up to 
now clicking on the Powershell link did nothing, but this morning it 
asked me for my usernme and passwd, and from that shell everything 
worked. I even downloaded and installed the software needed to run the 
vna app, and it all Just Worked.  I have no clue why it was so 
obstreperous prior to this morning. So theoreticly I won't be asking for 
windows support again. For those that did try to help, it appears 
that "run as administrator" is no longer part of windows 10 home 
edition, but PowerShell seems to be the magic twanger now. Again, many 
thanks to those that did hold their nose and try to help. It was 
appreciated.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#208580

On Sat, 11 May 2019 13:26:33 -0400
Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> wrote:


>  For those that did try to help, it appears 
> that "run as administrator" is no longer part of windows 10 home 
> edition, 

Works For Me (tm).

Most applications have a right-click Run As Administrator option. What
you don't have is the right to join a domain or easy control of file
permissions, and probably one or two other little oddities. My Win10 is
Home, and I fired it up specifically to test it. Smooth and slick, few
bugs, but entirely too pushy for my liking.

-- 
Joe

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#208581

On Saturday 11 May 2019 01:46:07 pm Joe wrote:

> On Sat, 11 May 2019 13:26:33 -0400
>
> Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> wrote:
> >  For those that did try to help, it appears
> > that "run as administrator" is no longer part of windows 10 home
> > edition,
>
> Works For Me (tm).
>
> Most applications have a right-click Run As Administrator option. What
> you don't have is the right to join a domain or easy control of file
> permissions, and probably one or two other little oddities. My Win10
> is Home, and I fired it up specifically to test it. Smooth and slick,
> few bugs, but entirely too pushy for my liking.

You forgot to mention slow. I've got decade older hardware, thats half 
the speed and 1/4 the cores and still obviously faster. But in an hours 
playing with my new test gear, I suppose I can get used to the lag.  
What truly amazes me is that this comes with a 3 port RF bridge good up 
to 60MHz, that has 43db of directivity at 1 MHz.  And its about the size 
of a normal pack of smokes. To get 43db, there has to be some very 
shiney mirrors and a lot of that famous magic smoke in that little $100 
box!

One other gismo I wish those folks would make, a TDR. OTOH, I've made one 
a couple times, accurate enough I can tell a tower crew where to take it 
apart to find the burnt stuff.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#208583

On Sat 11 May 2019 at 13:26:33 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Saturday 11 May 2019 11:42:04 am Brian wrote:
 
[...]

> > You are in a bad way. I wouldn't even wish that on those users who see
> > -user as a Windows support list. :)
> 
> FWIW Brian, i did finally get that "W" box to work this morning. Up to 
> now clicking on the Powershell link did nothing, but this morning it 
> asked me for my usernme and passwd, and from that shell everything 
> worked. I even downloaded and installed the software needed to run the 
> vna app, and it all Just Worked.  I have no clue why it was so 
> obstreperous prior to this morning. So theoreticly I won't be asking for 
> windows support again. For those that did try to help, it appears 
> that "run as administrator" is no longer part of windows 10 home 
> edition, but PowerShell seems to be the magic twanger now. Again, many 
> thanks to those that did hold their nose and try to help. It was 
> appreciated.

-user is described as "Community assistance and support for Debian
users.", so it looks like a user has carte blanche to post what he
wants; it depends what is meant by "Debian users". I am a Debian user
and am having problems with my mobile phone. Should I seek help here?

Glad you sorted your issue - really. But one hopes that most users
appreciate that Debian-based questions are the practical focus on
this list and do not abuse its purpose, as spammers do.

-- 
Brian.

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#208586

On Sat, 11 May 2019 20:41:04 +0100
Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:

> On Sat 11 May 2019 at 13:26:33 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> 
> > On Saturday 11 May 2019 11:42:04 am Brian wrote:  
>  
> [...]
> 
> > > You are in a bad way. I wouldn't even wish that on those users
> > > who see -user as a Windows support list. :)  
> > 
> > FWIW Brian, i did finally get that "W" box to work this morning. Up
> > to now clicking on the Powershell link did nothing, but this
> > morning it asked me for my usernme and passwd, and from that shell
> > everything worked. I even downloaded and installed the software
> > needed to run the vna app, and it all Just Worked.  I have no clue
> > why it was so obstreperous prior to this morning. So theoreticly I
> > won't be asking for windows support again. For those that did try
> > to help, it appears that "run as administrator" is no longer part
> > of windows 10 home edition, but PowerShell seems to be the magic
> > twanger now. Again, many thanks to those that did hold their nose
> > and try to help. It was appreciated.  
> 
> -user is described as "Community assistance and support for Debian
> users.", so it looks like a user has carte blanche to post what he
> wants; it depends what is meant by "Debian users". I am a Debian user
> and am having problems with my mobile phone. Should I seek help here?

If you have reason to believe that one of us can help you, why not? But
I think the subject of other OSes is a little less OT than most
subjects. We're generally not rabid Linux bigots here, and I'm sure I'm
not the only one to walk the dark path occasionally, though less so now
than in the past.

> 
> Glad you sorted your issue - really. But one hopes that most users
> appreciate that Debian-based questions are the practical focus on
> this list and do not abuse its purpose, as spammers do.
> 

My viewpoint, as you know as you've almost quoted me, is that if there
is no real abuse, then one Debian user is entitled to ask if the other
Debian users here have the knowledge to help in something OT. If they
don't, it dies there. If they do, it usually runs its course in a few
posts, and there's something in the archive that might help someone
else one day.

This is considered a high-volume group, at least by modern standards,
but it's not as if we have to scroll through pages of OT stuff to find
one post about Debian. *That* would be abuse. I would also think we
would be a bit more generous to long-established posters than we would
towards someone who made his first post here to ask something OT.

-- 
Joe

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#210437

On Sat 11 May 2019 at 16:42:04 (+0100), Brian wrote:
> On Fri 10 May 2019 at 13:20:39 -0500, David Wright wrote:

> > My interest in this stems from a Laptop on which you are blind until
> > the kernel loads (ie text pours down the screen). No boot selection
> > menu, no CMOS screens, no Grub screens.
> 
> You are in a bad way. I wouldn't even wish that on those users who see
> -user as a Windows support list. :)

I made some progress with this laptop. I think it's a problem with the
hardware that might involve something charging up with use. Left for a
week or two (or more), I get a period of time when the screen works,
and this was long enough to get though the early installation and
install the rest via ssh as I usually do.

I left out installing grub, and I had also already set Grub's timeout
to 60 seconds in order that I know I'm on Grub's blue screen even when
I can't see it. That enabled me to boot the old system, update grub to
probe the new one, reboot (blind) to the new system, and then update
grub on the new system and install it in the MBR when I was sure
everything was working. (Remember that once the system is up and
running, it can drive a monitor just fine.)

That has led to finding these lines in systemd's journal:

Jun 27 09:47:04 west systemd[1]: Created slice system-systemd\x2dbacklight.slice.
Jun 27 09:47:04 west systemd[1]: Starting Load/Save Screen Backlight Brightness of backlight:intel_backlight...
Jun 27 09:47:04 west systemd[1]: Started Load/Save Screen Backlight Brightness of backlight:intel_backlight.
Jun 27 09:47:06 west systemd[1]: Starting Load/Save Screen Backlight Brightness of backlight:dell_backlight...
Jun 27 09:47:06 west systemd-backlight[615]: Failed to write system 'brightness' attribute: Input/output error
Jun 27 09:47:06 west systemd[1]: systemd-backlight@backlight:dell_backlight.service: Main process exited, code=exited, status=1/FAILURE
Jun 27 09:47:06 west systemd[1]: Failed to start Load/Save Screen Backlight Brightness of backlight:dell_backlight.
Jun 27 09:47:06 west systemd[1]: systemd-backlight@backlight:dell_backlight.service: Unit entered failed state.
Jun 27 09:47:06 west systemd[1]: systemd-backlight@backlight:dell_backlight.service: Failed with result 'exit-code'.

which suggests there's something wrong with the backlight.

Also from following this thread, I realised that putting lines like:

menuentry "Install Debian via HTTP" {
        search --no-floppy --label --set=root <LABEL-OF-ROOT-FS>
        linux   /boot/linux
        initrd  /boot/initrd.gz
}

into grub.cfg, I can drop a pair of netboot files into /boot and then
boot from them, without having to write to and boot from USB sticks
(which is beyond the capabilities of my older machines). I hadn't
realised it was so simple, particularly when you have two root
partitions on your system disk.

Cheers,
David.

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#210439

	Hi.

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 10:24:51AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> That has led to finding these lines in systemd's journal:
...
> Jun 27 09:47:06 west systemd-backlight[615]: Failed to write system 'brightness' attribute: Input/output error
...
> which suggests there's something wrong with the backlight.

Hardly. More likely there's something wrong with the appropriate kernel
facility.
Basically what this systemd unit tries to do is to write a saved value
to /sys/class/backlight/intel_backlight/brightness.
Kernel responds to this with EIO, which is unusual for the laptop (to be
expected for the desktop as there's no backlight there).

It may be possible to workaround this with certain knobs of i915 kernel
module (enable_dpcd_backlight or invert_brightness), I'd try the latter
first.
I.e. try adding "i915.invert_brightness=1" or
"i915.enable_dpcd_backlight=1" to the kernel's commandline.

Reco

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#210441

On Thu 27 Jun 2019 at 18:44:59 (+0300), Reco wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 10:24:51AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > That has led to finding these lines in systemd's journal:
> ...
> > Jun 27 09:47:06 west systemd-backlight[615]: Failed to write system 'brightness' attribute: Input/output error
> ...
> > which suggests there's something wrong with the backlight.
> 
> Hardly. More likely there's something wrong with the appropriate kernel
> facility.

I'm afraid that's unlikely, based on the evidence that you snipped:

    > On Fri 10 May 2019 at 13:20:39 -0500, David Wright wrote:
    > > My interest in this stems from a Laptop on which you are blind until
    > > the kernel loads (ie text pours down the screen). No boot selection
    > > menu, no CMOS screens, no Grub screens.
              ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑

When the laptop is being powered up regularly, the display works for
about as long as the progress bar on the DELL screen takes to cross
from side to side: I would estimate it's about one second. The problem
came on gradually in Jan 2017. During use, the screen would flicker
a little, then die.

So my strategy was (1) set the CMOS to boot USB/optical/hard drive in
that order. I did that a year ago, after it had been powered off for
a week. (2) Leave a stretch installation USB stick by it, ready for
whenever I got a chance to use it. (3) Go on holiday. When I got
back, I had a long enough period with a display showing to get to:

  ┌────────────────┤ [!!] Continue installation remotely using SSH ├────────────────┐   
  │                                                                                 │   
  │                                    Start SSH                                    │   
  │ To continue the installation, please use an SSH client to connect to the IP     │   
  │ address 192.168.1.xxx fe80::xxx:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx and log in as the "installer"    │   
  │ user. For example:                                                              │   
  │                                                                                 │   
  │    ssh installer@192.168.1.xxx                                                  │   
  │                                                                                 │   
  │ The fingerprint of this SSH server's host key is:                               │   
  │                                                                                 │   
  │ SHA256:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                              │   
  │                                                                                 │   
  │ Please check this carefully against the fingerprint reported by your SSH client.│   
  │                                                                                 │   
  │                                  <Continue>                                     │   
  │                                                                                 │   
  └─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘   

at which point I'm home and dry.

> Basically what this systemd unit tries to do is to write a saved value
> to /sys/class/backlight/intel_backlight/brightness.
> Kernel responds to this with EIO, which is unusual for the laptop (to be
> expected for the desktop as there's no backlight there).
> 
> It may be possible to workaround this with certain knobs of i915 kernel
> module (enable_dpcd_backlight or invert_brightness), I'd try the latter
> first.
> I.e. try adding "i915.invert_brightness=1" or
> "i915.enable_dpcd_backlight=1" to the kernel's commandline.

Yes, I've also looked at the values from /sys/…/*backlight/… and they
all behave sensibly. But the screen flickers a little, then goes out.
That's why I think it might be something like a capacitor charging up.
Over a period of weeks, it could discharge back to behaving normally.

But I'm not looking for a fix to the problem, just workarounds to make
it possible to do things like install, that require the early screens
which the external monitor won't display.

Cheers,
David.

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#210443

On Thursday 27 June 2019 14:13:22 David Wright wrote:

> On Thu 27 Jun 2019 at 18:44:59 (+0300), Reco wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 10:24:51AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > > That has led to finding these lines in systemd's journal:
> >
> > ...
> >
> > > Jun 27 09:47:06 west systemd-backlight[615]: Failed to
> > > write system 'brightness' attribute: Input/output error
> >
> > ...
> >
> > > which suggests there's something wrong with the backlight.
> >
> > Hardly. More likely there's something wrong with the appropriate
> > kernel facility.
>
> I'm afraid that's unlikely, based on the evidence that you snipped:
>     > On Fri 10 May 2019 at 13:20:39 -0500, David Wright wrote:
>     > > My interest in this stems from a Laptop on which you are blind
>     > > until the kernel loads (ie text pours down the screen). No
>     > > boot selection menu, no CMOS screens, no Grub screens.
>
>               ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
>
> When the laptop is being powered up regularly, the display works for
> about as long as the progress bar on the DELL screen takes to cross
> from side to side: I would estimate it's about one second. The problem
> came on gradually in Jan 2017. During use, the screen would flicker
> a little, then die.
>
> So my strategy was (1) set the CMOS to boot USB/optical/hard drive in
> that order. I did that a year ago, after it had been powered off for
> a week. (2) Leave a stretch installation USB stick by it, ready for
> whenever I got a chance to use it. (3) Go on holiday. When I got
> back, I had a long enough period with a display showing to get to:
>
>   ┌────────────────┤ [!!] Continue installation remotely using SSH
> ├────────────────┐ │                                                  
>                               │ │                                   
> Start SSH                                    │ │ To continue the
> installation, please use an SSH client to connect to the IP     │ │
> address 192.168.1.xxx fe80::xxx:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx and log in as the
> "installer"    │ │ user. For example:                                 
>                             │ │                                       
>                                          │ │    ssh
> installer@192.168.1.xxx                                               
>   │ │                                                                 
>                │ │ The fingerprint of this SSH server's host key is:  
>                             │ │                                       
>                                          │ │
> SHA256:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                    
>          │ │                                                          
>                       │ │ Please check this carefully against the
> fingerprint reported by your SSH client.│ │                           
>                                                      │ │              
>                    <Continue>                                     │ │ 
>                                                                       
>         │
> └─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
>────────────┘
>
> at which point I'm home and dry.
>
> > Basically what this systemd unit tries to do is to write a saved
> > value to /sys/class/backlight/intel_backlight/brightness.
> > Kernel responds to this with EIO, which is unusual for the laptop
> > (to be expected for the desktop as there's no backlight there).
> >
> > It may be possible to workaround this with certain knobs of i915
> > kernel module (enable_dpcd_backlight or invert_brightness), I'd try
> > the latter first.
> > I.e. try adding "i915.invert_brightness=1" or
> > "i915.enable_dpcd_backlight=1" to the kernel's commandline.
>
> Yes, I've also looked at the values from /sys/…/*backlight/… and they
> all behave sensibly. But the screen flickers a little, then goes out.
> That's why I think it might be something like a capacitor charging up.
> Over a period of weeks, it could discharge back to behaving normally.
>
> But I'm not looking for a fix to the problem, just workarounds to make
> it possible to do things like install, that require the early screens
> which the external monitor won't display.
>
> Cheers,
> David.

That sounds an awful lot like the filter caps have failed. If handy with 
a small screwdriver,  open that lappy and check all the aluminum cans 
for bulging where the scratches are across the tops.  And if possible 
since the psu bricks are well sealed, try a fresh psu.  If the cans have 
bulged tops, that's a sure sign the electrical characteristic called ESR 
has gone above and ohm or so. Unless you are handy with a workstation 
type soldering kit, its probably less trouble to just replace the lappy 
with a new one.  There was a period a decade back where the capacitors 
were legendarily bad.  Your unit may have some of them in it. 

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#210445

On Thu 27 Jun 2019 at 17:20:16 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 27 June 2019 14:13:22 David Wright wrote:
> > On Thu 27 Jun 2019 at 18:44:59 (+0300), Reco wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 10:24:51AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > > > That has led to finding these lines in systemd's journal:
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > > Jun 27 09:47:06 west systemd-backlight[615]: Failed to
> > > > write system 'brightness' attribute: Input/output error
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > > which suggests there's something wrong with the backlight.
> > >
> > > Hardly. More likely there's something wrong with the appropriate
> > > kernel facility.
> >
> > I'm afraid that's unlikely, based on the evidence that you snipped:
> >     > On Fri 10 May 2019 at 13:20:39 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> >     > > My interest in this stems from a Laptop on which you are blind
> >     > > until the kernel loads (ie text pours down the screen). No
> >     > > boot selection menu, no CMOS screens, no Grub screens.
> >
> >               ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
> >
> > When the laptop is being powered up regularly, the display works for
> > about as long as the progress bar on the DELL screen takes to cross
> > from side to side: I would estimate it's about one second. The problem
> > came on gradually in Jan 2017. During use, the screen would flicker
> > a little, then die.
> >
> > So my strategy was (1) set the CMOS to boot USB/optical/hard drive in
> > that order. I did that a year ago, after it had been powered off for
> > a week. (2) Leave a stretch installation USB stick by it, ready for
> > whenever I got a chance to use it. (3) Go on holiday. When I got
> > back, I had a long enough period with a display showing to get to:
> > […]
> > at which point I'm home and dry.
> >
> > > Basically what this systemd unit tries to do is to write a saved
> > > value to /sys/class/backlight/intel_backlight/brightness.
> > > Kernel responds to this with EIO, which is unusual for the laptop
> > > (to be expected for the desktop as there's no backlight there).
> > >
> > > It may be possible to workaround this with certain knobs of i915
> > > kernel module (enable_dpcd_backlight or invert_brightness), I'd try
> > > the latter first.
> > > I.e. try adding "i915.invert_brightness=1" or
> > > "i915.enable_dpcd_backlight=1" to the kernel's commandline.
> >
> > Yes, I've also looked at the values from /sys/…/*backlight/… and they
> > all behave sensibly. But the screen flickers a little, then goes out.
> > That's why I think it might be something like a capacitor charging up.
> > Over a period of weeks, it could discharge back to behaving normally.
> >
> > But I'm not looking for a fix to the problem, just workarounds to make
> > it possible to do things like install, that require the early screens
> > which the external monitor won't display.
> 
> That sounds an awful lot like the filter caps have failed. If handy with 
> a small screwdriver,  open that lappy and check all the aluminum cans 
> for bulging where the scratches are across the tops.  And if possible 
> since the psu bricks are well sealed, try a fresh psu.  If the cans have 
> bulged tops, that's a sure sign the electrical characteristic called ESR 
> has gone above and ohm or so. Unless you are handy with a workstation 
> type soldering kit, its probably less trouble to just replace the lappy 
> with a new one.  There was a period a decade back where the capacitors 
> were legendarily bad.  Your unit may have some of them in it. 

I thought you might pop by! I agree, but I don't think I'll be opening
it up. It went through a bad patch about 8 years ago when it would
just turn itself off (as if you'd held the power button) at random
times, but usually when adjusting the screen angle. Then I had a
failing battery (the large one), during which it was the sole PC I had
access to. Later, the spare smaller battery became worn out, so now it
runs permanently connected to a monitor and the mains PSU. I only run
it because it's fast (2 cores at 1.2GHz) though it does run hot.
AFAICT the PSU is ok as I have a spare that makes no difference. But
it's not worth spending any money on.

Cheers,
David.

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