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What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

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  What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-06-06 04:10 +0200
    Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-06-06 04:50 +0200
    Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2019-06-06 04:50 +0200
      Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-06-06 05:20 +0200
        Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-06-06 17:00 +0200
    Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-06-06 09:30 +0200
      Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-06-06 13:20 +0200
        Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2019-06-06 13:40 +0200
          Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-06-06 14:20 +0200
      Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-06-06 14:30 +0200
        Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-06-06 14:40 +0200
          Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-06-06 21:10 +0200
      Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> - 2019-06-06 17:00 +0200
    Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-06-07 18:00 +0200
      Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-06-08 03:40 +0200
        Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-06-08 04:10 +0200
          Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-06-08 05:50 +0200
            Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-06-08 07:20 +0200
              Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-06-08 10:50 +0200
                Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-06-08 16:30 +0200
                  Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-06-08 17:30 +0200
                    Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2019-06-09 09:20 +0200
                      Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-06-09 10:10 +0200
                        Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-06-09 10:30 +0200
                          Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-06-09 12:00 +0200
                      Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-06-09 13:10 +0200
                        Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2019-06-09 17:00 +0200
                          Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2019-06-09 20:20 +0200
                            Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2019-06-10 06:10 +0200
    Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-06-10 10:50 +0200
      Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-06-10 13:20 +0200
        Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-06-10 15:50 +0200
          Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2019-06-10 16:20 +0200
          Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-06-10 18:00 +0200

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#209759

On Saturday 08 June 2019 10:20:09 am deloptes wrote:

> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > It could be. And the linuxcnc developers/spinners are being made
> > aware of these problem's also.  That particular kernel you see above
> > I will state, has the best latency figures I have ever seen on this
> > particular machine, which with a normal kernel is so horrible I'd
> > never consider actually running a machine with it.  Milliseconds of
> > lag normally. But latency-test shows about 20 microseconds.  So one
> > could even run software stepping, slowly but it would run.  Would be
> > great if the stepping was offloaded to an accessory pci card.
> > Normally we use intel cpu's because their latency-test figures can
> > be as good as 4 microseconds for a puny powered atom board. Intel
> > has of course disco'ed that particular board, and I wish I had
> > bought more of them when they were available.
>
> Did you try running this without systemd? I recall you mentioned
> somewhere you removed it
>
> regards

No. And I doubt there would even be a running system left. I don't think 
I wrote that it had been removed...

I just didn't know that it could be made so pervasive in one swell foop.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#209767

On 08.06.19 11:28, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Saturday 08 June 2019 10:20:09 am deloptes wrote:
> > Did you try running this without systemd? I recall you mentioned
> > somewhere you removed it
> >
> > regards
> 
> No. And I doubt there would even be a running system left. I don't think 
> I wrote that it had been removed...
> 
> I just didn't know that it could be made so pervasive in one swell foop.

Err, Gene, this foop has swelled to 1.2 million lines of code while your
back was turned. Pervasiveness is its essence.

https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/05/25/0538206/systemd-now-has-more-than-12-million-lines-of-code

Erik

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#209769

On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 05:18:20PM +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote:
>Err, Gene, this foop has swelled to 1.2 million lines of code while your
>back was turned. Pervasiveness is its essence.
>
>https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/05/25/0538206/systemd-now-has-more-than-12-million-lines-of-code

Is that a lot, for an init system? Or for an init system + the other systems
that are in the systemd source tree (syslog equivalent, udev, etc.)? If so, what
would be an "appropriate" quantity of source code?

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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#209770

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 09:04:01AM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 09, 2019 at 05:18:20PM +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> >Err, Gene, this foop has swelled to 1.2 million lines of code while your
> >back was turned. Pervasiveness is its essence.
> >
> >https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/05/25/0538206/systemd-now-has-more-than-12-million-lines-of-code
> 
> Is that a lot, for an init system? Or for an init system + the other systems
> that are in the systemd source tree (syslog equivalent, udev, etc.)? If so, what
> would be an "appropriate" quantity of source code?

What's much? What's little?

This was just a typical useless anti-systemd slur: 12 million lines of
code! Wow! (and it carries along a negative judgement without really
saying it, so plausibly deniable).

Way to stir up mud in the discussion without really contributing anything
valuable. For whatever reasons I don't understand.

I tend to ignore such things.

And if that sounded like a systemd proponent: I still run stretch
*without* systemd. I don't like its approach. But I like less the
discussion style which has developed around it. We're running in
circles, it seems.

Cheers
-- t

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#209771

On 2019-06-09, <tomas@tuxteam.de> <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
>
> What's much? What's little?
>
> This was just a typical useless anti-systemd slur: 12 million lines of

1.2 millions lines, actually, because the url dropped the decimal point,
thus multiplying by a factor of ten the other point, which I agree is
meaningless in and of and by itself. 

-- 
“Decisions are never really made – at best they manage to emerge, from a chaos
of peeves, whims, hallucinations and all around assholery.” – Thomas Pynchon

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#209772

On Sunday 09 June 2019 03:18:20 am Erik Christiansen wrote:

> On 08.06.19 11:28, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Saturday 08 June 2019 10:20:09 am deloptes wrote:
> > > Did you try running this without systemd? I recall you mentioned
> > > somewhere you removed it
> > >
> > > regards
> >
> > No. And I doubt there would even be a running system left. I don't
> > think I wrote that it had been removed...
> >
> > I just didn't know that it could be made so pervasive in one swell
> > foop.
>
> Err, Gene, this foop has swelled to 1.2 million lines of code while
> your back was turned. Pervasiveness is its essence.
>
> https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/05/25/0538206/systemd-now-has-more
>-than-12-million-lines-of-code
>
> Erik

And what do we call that Erik, thats much bigger than a normal foop, a 
megafoop maybe?  Good grief, Charley Brown.  And we're stuck with it. :(

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#209775

On 09.06.19 06:59, Gene Heskett wrote:
> And what do we call that Erik, thats much bigger than a normal foop, a 
> megafoop maybe?  Good grief, Charley Brown.  And we're stuck with it. :(

Well now, there are folks who have observed that not all progress is
forward, and not all code bloat and pervasiveness is a benison,
resulting in at least two ways to remain essentially debian without
remaining stuck in the foop, mega or otherwise.

One simple method is from the "Insidious systemd" thread on this list.
Quoting from <20190527144308.0398ce4b@debian9>:

On 27.05.19 14:43, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> I used the "approved" conversion documented on Debian's web site
> somewhere: apt (or apt-get) install sysvinit-core.
...
> Totally automatic. All of systemd's libraries remained along with udev
> and a couple others I don't recall.  It freed up about 6 or 7 MB of
> RAM over a systemd boot.

One apt-get install is about as easy as it could be.

Some residual unused libraries mouldering in the background do no harm,
but if they offend, then there is devuan. While my laptop and main
desktop are pre-systemd debian, I've run devuan on another host for some
time. It is only sans-systemd debian, remaining true in other regards.
Downloading an image, putting it on a usb stick, and doing yet another
install is a bit more work, and another list to subscribe to. There are
a number of debian users who appear satisfied with the sysvinit-core
package. To my mind it neatly solves the problem of an old bloke, happy
with traditional sysvinit, having to load wetware RAM with a completely
new way to get the same bucket of water from the well as we've been
doing for decades. (Speaking of self, here.)

Erik

-- 
"If you want to eat hippopotamus, you've got to pay the freight."
 - attributed to an IBM guy, about why IBM software uses so much memory.

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#209777

On Mon 10 Jun 2019 at 00:52:21 +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote:

> 
> On 09.06.19 06:59, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > And what do we call that Erik, thats much bigger than a normal foop, a 
> > megafoop maybe?  Good grief, Charley Brown.  And we're stuck with it. :(
> 
> Well now, there are folks who have observed that not all progress is
> forward, .....

Indeed there are; their promotion of "backward progress" mangles the
English language and brings into doubt any subsequent argument being
promoted. Are these the same people who observe "forward regression"
in some processes?

Incidentally, the OP has no intention of changing the init system he
is using. He has enough problems on his plate already.

-- 
Brian.

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#209784

On 09.06.19 19:11, Brian wrote:
> On Mon 10 Jun 2019 at 00:52:21 +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On 09.06.19 06:59, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > And what do we call that Erik, thats much bigger than a normal foop, a 
> > > megafoop maybe?  Good grief, Charley Brown.  And we're stuck with it. :(
> > 
> > Well now, there are folks who have observed that not all progress is
> > forward, .....
> 
> Indeed there are; their promotion of "backward progress" mangles the
> English language and brings into doubt any subsequent argument being
> promoted. Are these the same people who observe "forward regression"
> in some processes?

No, that's just your lack of understanding being expressed by you. Many
of the nuances of the meaning of "progress" may be found in:

 1. To make progress; to move forward in space; to continue
  onward in course; to proceed; to advance; to go on; as,
   railroads are progressing. "As his recovery progressed."
    --Thackeray.

Please think on the following example. A party might progress (continue
onward in course) deeper into a swamp, the mire might progress (advance)
up the sides of their boots, and their progress (procession) may grow
progressively slower and more laboured. Does this progress (advance)
their goals?

Once you apply your mind to it, I'm sure that you can understand these
nuances of the English language. (If English is not your first language,
then your uninformative overly opinionated interruption is excused. ;)

> Incidentally, the OP has no intention of changing the init system he
> is using. He has enough problems on his plate already.

How fortunate Gene is to have you to tell him what he wants. Perhaps
you'll also tell him to be grateful for your decisionmaking on his
behalf? 

Incidentally, I thank you for leaving the task of providing informative
contributions, outlining real-world options, to the helpfully inclined.
It'll save confusion.

Erik

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#209790

On 2019-06-06, Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> wrote:
>   
> What do I do next to get rid of this nearly invisible agetty gizmo once 
> this machine is booted?  It might be handy if this machine is truly 
> hung, but I can count those instances on one hand with fingers left over 
> in the 21 years I have been a linux only house.

Maybe

    sudo systemctl stop serial-getty@ttyS0.service

if you haven't already tried it.


> Thanks all;
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


-- 
“Decisions are never really made – at best they manage to emerge, from a chaos
of peeves, whims, hallucinations and all around assholery.” – Thomas Pynchon

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#209792

On Monday 10 June 2019 04:46:33 am Curt wrote:

> On 2019-06-06, Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> wrote:
> > What do I do next to get rid of this nearly invisible agetty gizmo
> > once this machine is booted?  It might be handy if this machine is
> > truly hung, but I can count those instances on one hand with fingers
> > left over in the 21 years I have been a linux only house.
>
> Maybe
>
>     sudo systemctl stop serial-getty@ttyS0.service
>
> if you haven't already tried it.

No, after a reboot, I don't need to.

minicom is working, sorta.  Theres enough diffs in the protocol to 
call "working" by a rather fuzzy definition.  But at least /dev/ttyS0 is 
now available for MY use. That was the squawk. I still have not found 
where the previous boot, to the same kernel/etc might have decided to 
grab /dev/ttyS0 for its own use. The previous boot did send 7 or 8 bytes 
of data that was just random line noise to the legacy machine on the 
receiving end that cable. Other than that, I'm still clueless.

If I were to file a bug, it would be against java's current (stretch) 
jre.  It has no backward compatibility with the wheezy version and has 
broken another utility we use so badly that the majority of it has now 
been re-written in pypy.  So we at least have the function, if not 
the "purty" we had with the wheezy version of the jre. The purty will be 
improved I am sure. The pypy effort is quite young yet.

>
> > Thanks all;
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#209796

On 2019-06-10, Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> wrote:
>>
>> Maybe
>>
>>     sudo systemctl stop serial-getty@ttyS0.service
>>
>> if you haven't already tried it.
>
> No, after a reboot, I don't need to.
>
> minicom is working, sorta.  Theres enough diffs in the protocol to 
> call "working" by a rather fuzzy definition.  But at least /dev/ttyS0 is 
> now available for MY use. That was the squawk. I still have not found 
> where the previous boot, to the same kernel/etc might have decided to 
> grab /dev/ttyS0 for its own use. The previous boot did send 7 or 8 bytes 
> of data that was just random line noise to the legacy machine on the 
> receiving end that cable. Other than that, I'm still clueless.

Well, Michael Stone's guess was a good one (though, apparently, wrong).

Of course, you don't show any logs so it's anybody's guess.

Here's another: modemmanager probing ttyS0 trying to identify a modem.

Probably not, though. Anyway, it's working, which is enough for some of
us in this crazy old world.

> If I were to file a bug, it would be against java's current (stretch) 
> jre.  It has no backward compatibility with the wheezy version and has 
> broken another utility we use so badly that the majority of it has now 
> been re-written in pypy.  So we at least have the function, if not 
> the "purty" we had with the wheezy version of the jre. The purty will be 
> improved I am sure. The pypy effort is quite young yet.
>
>>
>> > Thanks all;
>> >
>> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


-- 
“Decisions are never really made – at best they manage to emerge, from a chaos
of peeves, whims, hallucinations and all around assholery.” – Thomas Pynchon

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#209798

On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 01:44:36PM -0000, Curt wrote:
>Well, Michael Stone's guess was a good one (though, apparently, wrong).

The one thing I've learned is that Gene does weird things to his systems 
and has issues that nobody else has. I'll throw out a guess, but I won't 
waste a lot of time on it. It is certain that systemd doesn't generally 
activate a getty on a serial port, so something's turning it on. But, 
playing 20,000 questions and getting straight answers to 10,000 of them 
after reading 10,000 pages of anecdotes just isn't fun for most people, 
so we'll probably just leave this in the "undocumented weirdness" pile 
and move on.

>Of course, you don't show any logs so it's anybody's guess.

Bingo.

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#209800

On Monday 10 June 2019 09:44:36 am Curt wrote:

> On 2019-06-10, Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> wrote:
> >> Maybe
> >>
> >>     sudo systemctl stop serial-getty@ttyS0.service
> >>
> >> if you haven't already tried it.
> >
> > No, after a reboot, I don't need to.
> >
> > minicom is working, sorta.  Theres enough diffs in the protocol to
> > call "working" by a rather fuzzy definition.  But at least
> > /dev/ttyS0 is now available for MY use. That was the squawk. I still
> > have not found where the previous boot, to the same kernel/etc might
> > have decided to grab /dev/ttyS0 for its own use. The previous boot
> > did send 7 or 8 bytes of data that was just random line noise to the
> > legacy machine on the receiving end that cable. Other than that, I'm
> > still clueless.
>
> Well, Michael Stone's guess was a good one (though, apparently,
> wrong).
>
> Of course, you don't show any logs so it's anybody's guess.
>
logs are a mess. Everything I ran for email support on wheezy, that kept 
its own logs, is now spamming syslog to the extent that in an hour, any 
interesting log events have scrolled well of the 10,000 line buffer I 
give each shell. Finding anything in that mess even with grep is almost 
impossible, because you can highlight it to do a copy/paste to an email, 
and theres nothing in the buffer after switching windows and positioning 
the cursor for the paste, its already scrolled off screen, which cancels 
the highlight.

Trying to move spamd's log is hopeless because now they have no 
permissions to use /var/log.  Thats such a pain in the ass to make it 
work that I gave it up on wheezy and made a log dir in my home dir and 
fixed logrotate to service them there. What the hell, I thought /var/log 
was where to find/keep logs, but when only root can use it, its the same 
as the belly appendages on a boar hog. Useless. Just because of someones 
paranoia.
 
> Here's another: modemmanager probing ttyS0 trying to identify a modem.
>
> Probably not, though. Anyway, it's working, which is enough for some
> of us in this crazy old world.

> > If I were to file a bug, it would be against java's current
> > (stretch) jre.  It has no backward compatibility with the wheezy
> > version and has broken another utility we use so badly that the
> > majority of it has now been re-written in pypy.  So we at least have
> > the function, if not the "purty" we had with the wheezy version of
> > the jre. The purty will be improved I am sure. The pypy effort is
> > quite young yet.
> >
> >> > Thanks all;
> >> >
> >> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett

Sorry for the bad mood. I can barely walk from the back pain. I've 2 
riding mowers all apart in the driveway, 2 crushed disks in my back 
making me miserable after 2 days of working on it, and still much of a 
day yet getting a rider back in a state I can climb on, twist the key 
and mow.  And its 3+ feet deep in places in the back yard.  That or 
$1800 to get far enough up the quality ladder to get rid of the kawasaki 
or briggs and scrapiron motors. Both are problem children.  Kohler 
engines just work.  Honda engines just work. And the guy who could pick 
up 200 lbs and walk it all over town? At 84 he doesn't live here 
anymore.



Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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