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'synaptic' removed from buster

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  'synaptic' removed from buster David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2019-04-04 13:00 +0200
    Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2019-04-04 13:00 +0200
      Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2019-04-04 13:40 +0200
        Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> - 2019-04-04 14:50 +0200
          Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-04 15:00 +0200
            Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-04-05 17:10 +0200
              Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-05 17:50 +0200
                Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 23:10 +0200
                  Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 00:40 +0200
                    Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 01:00 +0200
                    Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 01:50 +0200
                  Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-06 04:40 +0200
                    Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-04-06 09:50 +0200
                      Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-10 18:10 +0200
                        Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Nazar Zhuk <nazar@zhuk.online> - 2019-04-11 00:40 +0200
                          Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2019-04-11 01:50 +0200
                            Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-11 05:30 +0200
                          Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-11 05:20 +0200
                            Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Nazar Zhuk <nazar@zhuk.online> - 2019-04-11 21:00 +0200
                              Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-11 22:30 +0200
                    Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-06 15:10 +0200
                      Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-09 22:10 +0200
                  Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-06 10:10 +0200
                    Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-04-06 10:50 +0200
                    Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 11:00 +0200
                      Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Dominic Knight <dominicknight@gmx.com> - 2019-04-06 12:40 +0200
                        Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-09 22:10 +0200
                      Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-04-06 14:10 +0200
                        Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-06 15:00 +0200
                      Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-04-08 14:30 +0200
                  Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jan Claeys <lists@janc.be> - 2019-04-06 14:50 +0200
          Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-04 15:10 +0200
            Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-04 16:20 +0200
              Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-04 18:00 +0200
                Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-04 21:30 +0200
              Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 20:30 +0200
            Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-04-04 19:40 +0200
              Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-04 19:50 +0200
                Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-04 21:50 +0200
                  Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-04-04 22:00 +0200
                    Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-04 22:20 +0200
                      Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-04-04 22:30 +0200
                        Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-04-05 17:10 +0200
                          Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-05 20:30 +0200
                            Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-06 05:20 +0200
                              Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-06 15:30 +0200
                                Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-09 22:40 +0200
                        Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jan Claeys <lists@janc.be> - 2019-04-05 21:40 +0200
                          Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-05 22:40 +0200
                          Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-05 22:40 +0200
                            Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jan Claeys <lists@janc.be> - 2019-04-06 15:00 +0200
                          Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2019-04-06 01:30 +0200
                      Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-04-05 17:10 +0200
                    Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 08:40 +0200
                      Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-05 08:50 +0200
                        Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 09:50 +0200
                          Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-05 12:00 +0200
                            Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 12:20 +0200
                              Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-05 12:30 +0200
                                Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-05 13:40 +0200
                                  Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 13:50 +0200
                                    Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-05 14:10 +0200
                                Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 13:40 +0200
                              Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-05 22:20 +0200
                                Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 03:10 +0200
                      Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-05 11:10 +0200
                        Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 12:00 +0200
          Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2019-04-04 15:50 +0200
            Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> - 2019-04-05 15:30 +0200
              Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 15:40 +0200
                Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> - 2019-04-05 17:30 +0200
              Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-05 19:50 +0200
                Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Charlie <taoquester@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 00:40 +0200
        Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-04 15:00 +0200
    Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-04 14:30 +0200
      Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2019-04-04 16:40 +0200
      Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-04-05 14:50 +0200
        Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2019-04-05 20:40 +0200
          Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-04-05 21:30 +0200
    Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-04 15:00 +0200

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#207016

On 2019-04-05 12:37, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 12:28:18PM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> probably I don't understand. What I'm mooting is who knows what
>> skillful cracker can get hold of your account credentials when
>> online. If user can't do root stuff on strength of their own
>> password then any malignant activity would be limited.
> 
> It's not about user/root as different /persons/, but as different
> /roles/. I want to be able to "do" root on my box (and I want
> everyone to have that possibility on their box). But I want to
> be aware of /when/ I'm playing the root role.

well su root and then enter root's password always seemed to work.

> Cheers
> -- t

-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#207017

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On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 12:46:28PM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> On 2019-04-05 12:37, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 12:28:18PM +0100, mick crane wrote:

[...]

> well su root and then enter root's password always seemed to work.

Yes, of course. I was arguing with the "normal user should be able
to download packages" part -- download, yes. Install, no way.

For this there's no difference between su and sudo.

I do prefer sudo because (a) it makes it easy to gain privileges
for just one command (thus it makes it easy to avoid simple mistakes),
and (b) it gives finer control for specific scenarios (the backup
example). But hey, whatever floats your boat.

Cheers
-- t

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#207015

On 2019-04-05 11:27, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 11:07:42AM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> well normal user isn't supposed to do system things. Sudo makes me
>> nervous.
> 
> You don't seem to understand sudo.
> 
> It lets you control finely under which conditions a normal user
> is able to change to root. One posibility (one edit of /etc/sudoers
> away) would be "never", if you like that.
> 
> Another (imo more sensible) would be: when doing backup, always;
> when installing packages, only this or that user, giving her 
> credentials;
> or giving root's credentials.
> 
> You name it.
> 
> Cheers
> -- t
probably I don't understand. What I'm mooting is who knows what skillful 
cracker can get hold of your account credentials when online. If user 
can't do root stuff on strength of their own password then any malignant 
activity would be limited.
-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#207051

On Fri 05 Apr 2019 at 11:07:42 (+0100), mick crane wrote:
> On 2019-04-05 10:51, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 08:43:32AM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> > > On 2019-04-05 07:46, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > >On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 07:37:05AM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> > > >
> > > >[...]
> > > >
> > > >>Making you be root to download stuff off the internet never seemed
> > > >>like a good idea.
> > > >
> > > >And letting "you" (not root) install things in system directories
> > > >(/usr/bin et al) seems to be as bad an idea [...]
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > what's the issue with
> > > seeing what's available as you,
> > > checking what you need as root,
> > > downloading as you,
> > > install as root.

>From this and other posts of yours, you seem to feel very vulnerable
when connected to anywhere outside your system, as if you're under
a man-in-the-middle attack all the time.

If your user account is compromised through, say, unwise browsing of
the web, then downloading packages/checksums as user will make for
far greater vulnerability, and root could end up installing all sorts
of bogus stuff.

> > Imagine some random javascript (running as you, the "normal" user
> > starts doing system things (browser sandboxing? nah!). At this point
> > I'd hope I get asked for my password, to get a chance to stop the
> > whole shenanigan. But that's just me...
> 
> well normal user isn't supposed to do system things. Sudo makes me
> nervous.

Let's take a real scenario. You've sent some largish emails, and are
impatient to close down the machine. How do you find out whether your
emails have actually left your system? Two easy ways: see if material
is still queued, or check exim's log. Two problems: /var/spool/exim4
can't be read at all (Debian-exim required) and neither can
/var/log/exim4 (adm required).

You can fix the latter by being included in adm. Now you can see
which have left the machine, and you *might* notice emails that failed
if there's not too much traffic. OTOH you don't want to be included in
Debian-exim and be able to read/interfere with/delete emails, but need
to see the spool.

A solution is for root to add lines like:

Cmnd_Alias      EMAILQUEUED = /bin/ls -lR /var/spool/exim4/
ME              MYHOSTS         = (EMAIL)               EMAILQUEUED
## who          where           = (as_whom)             what

to a file like /etc/sudoers.d/foo so that you (defined as ME) can
run that specific command as Debian-exim (EMAIL) on given hosts.
Now, a bash function can be defined to handle all the typing for
you (as user):

my-q ()
{
    [ -n "$1" ] && printf '%s\n' "Usage:	$FUNCNAME
	checks the outbound mail queue." 1>&2 && return 1;
    ps -p $(pgrep exim4);
    sudo -u Debian-exim ls -lR /var/spool/exim4/
}

$ my-q

Cheers,
David.

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#207063

On 2019-04-05 21:13, David Wright wrote:

> From this and other posts of yours, you seem to feel very vulnerable
> when connected to anywhere outside your system, as if you're under
> a man-in-the-middle attack all the time.

Do I come across like that ?
It is probably correct. I think it is because I don't understand all of 
this stuff.
I understand bits here and there, yet it does seem increasingly 
difficult to know what exactly is going on.

> A solution is for root to add lines like:
> 
> Cmnd_Alias      EMAILQUEUED = /bin/ls -lR /var/spool/exim4/
> ME              MYHOSTS         = (EMAIL)               EMAILQUEUED
> ## who          where           = (as_whom)             what
> 
> to a file like /etc/sudoers.d/foo so that you (defined as ME) can
> run that specific command as Debian-exim (EMAIL) on given hosts.
> Now, a bash function can be defined to handle all the typing for
> you (as user):
> 
> my-q ()
> {
>     [ -n "$1" ] && printf '%s\n' "Usage:	$FUNCNAME
> 	checks the outbound mail queue." 1>&2 && return 1;
>     ps -p $(pgrep exim4);
>     sudo -u Debian-exim ls -lR /var/spool/exim4/
> }
> 
> $ my-q
> 

thanks for that.

> Cheers,
> David.

mick

-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#207004

On Friday 05 April 2019 02:37:05 mick crane wrote:

> On 2019-04-04 20:57, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 03:46:52PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >> The solution seems simple enough, fix wayland.  This is after all a
> >> multiuser and multitasking OS, why go out of the way, way out of
> >> the way
> >> to make it work like win-3.0?
> >
> > The notion of running a client as user X to talk to a display server
> > running as user Y seems to directly contradict the Wayland security
> > model.  As far as I can understand it, given the rather vague
> > Wayland documentation I've seen so far.
> >
> > I think the "correct" fix for synaptic would be to redesign it to
> > run the
> > graphical interface as you, communicating with an auxiliary process
> > that
> > runs as root which can install and remove packages.  That second
> > process
> > could be a child of synaptic, or an independent daemon of some kind.
> > Authentication methods to be determined by whomever does the work.
> >
> > I would not describe this solution as "simple".  Maybe you had a
> > different
> > solution in mind.
>
> Making you be root to download stuff off the internet never seemed
> like a good idea.
>
> mick

Good point, Mick. But then who owns /var/cache/apt?


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#207007

On 2019-04-05 10:06, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 05 April 2019 02:37:05 mick crane wrote:
> 
>> On 2019-04-04 20:57, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>> > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 03:46:52PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> >> The solution seems simple enough, fix wayland.  This is after all a
>> >> multiuser and multitasking OS, why go out of the way, way out of
>> >> the way
>> >> to make it work like win-3.0?
>> >
>> > The notion of running a client as user X to talk to a display server
>> > running as user Y seems to directly contradict the Wayland security
>> > model.  As far as I can understand it, given the rather vague
>> > Wayland documentation I've seen so far.
>> >
>> > I think the "correct" fix for synaptic would be to redesign it to
>> > run the
>> > graphical interface as you, communicating with an auxiliary process
>> > that
>> > runs as root which can install and remove packages.  That second
>> > process
>> > could be a child of synaptic, or an independent daemon of some kind.
>> > Authentication methods to be determined by whomever does the work.
>> >
>> > I would not describe this solution as "simple".  Maybe you had a
>> > different
>> > solution in mind.
>> 
>> Making you be root to download stuff off the internet never seemed
>> like a good idea.
>> 
>> mick
> 
> Good point, Mick. But then who owns /var/cache/apt?

I dunno, I asked a similar question when I installed gentoo over a dial 
up modem.
2 weeks on the phone line as root didn't seem sensible.


> Cheers, Gene Heskett

-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#206957

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On Thu, 04 Apr 2019 09:20:51 -0300
Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> wrote:

Hello Francisco,

>	What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been using

To add to what Curt and Reco have said:  Running Synaptic using a
Wayland/Gnome combo,by clicking on an icon, it doesn't start.  Not very
helpful, I think you'll agree. Especially for software that's aimed
squarely at GUI users.  Started from a shell an error is, however,
reported.  It's unfortunate that, as yet, a remedy has not been
forthcoming.

I would hope that if somebody does come up with a fix, Synaptic would be
reintroduced to Buster quickly.

Of course, anybody that already has Synaptic installed won't lose it,
it'll simply be marked as 'local/obsolete'.  Only if/when its remaining
installed causes a conflict somewhere, will Synaptic be considered for
removal.

Full bug report thread starts here:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=818366
It's not overly long, nor too technical - by which I mean: *I* understood
it, so it can't be that hard.   :-)

-- 
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
White people going to school, where they teach you to be thick
White Riot - The Clash

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#207027

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Greetings!

On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 14:46 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> To add to what Curt and Reco have said:  Running Synaptic using a
> Wayland/Gnome combo,by clicking on an icon, it doesn't start.  Not very
> helpful, I think you'll agree. Especially for software that's aimed
> squarely at GUI users.  Started from a shell an error is, however,
> reported.  It's unfortunate that, as yet, a remedy has not been
> forthcoming.

	Thanks for your input, and Curt and Reco as well. 

	I'm not a big user of Synaptic myself, although sometimes it's easier to
mark several packages and not worry about dependencies, instead of going through
all the trouble of making several apt searches in command line. 

\begin{rant}

	That being said, my *main* beef with Synaptic being out of Buster is an
entirely different matter. I would not object to removing it from the release,
*if* a viable alternative was available with at least the same level of
functionality, which does *not* seem to be the case. 
	What is even worse, though, is the attitude of some people about that. I
asked the same question I asked in my previous email in #debian-next yesterday,
only to leave the channel before the flamewar became full fledged. I was
"gently" reminded by certain people there of why, in the end, I have never gone
all the way into trying to become a DM or a DD. Synaptic, which provides a very
useful functionality to a large number of users, was unapologetically removed
from the release because it does not work with the "default" installation. Which
is understandable, but also extreme. If someone happens to *not* use the default
installation, be it by not using Gnome, or not using Wayland, they are kept from
updating an important piece of their maintenance toolkit. And that's
inexcusable, especially when all they can say about it is "maintainer didn't do
his job" or "if you want this fixed, do it yourself".
	Well, no. Being a free software user or even a Debian enthusiast does
not make me a specialist in packaging, or in Synaptic internals, or Wayland
internals for that matter. When someone who claims to be a Debian Developer or
Maintainer or whatever, who is in a position of being responsible for ensuring
that the release is as good as it can be, excuses themselves from fixing a
Release Critical bug just because "they have better things to do", they are not
doing a very good job. And, to be quite honest, I don't think they should be in
that position.

	Sadly, it's an attitude that I have encountered more often than not when
trying to dialogue with people involved in Debian (or in Gnome, by the way). And
that's just very sad.

\end{rant}

Have a good day, gentlemen.
Francisco

-- 
[]'s,

Francisco M Neto

GPG: 4096R/D692FBF0

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#207028

On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 00:25, Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> wrote:
>
> Have a good day, gentlemen.

Why are the good wishes to gentlemen only?

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#207034

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On Sat, 2019-04-06 at 00:29 +1100, David wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 00:25, Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> wrote:
> > Have a good day, gentlemen.
> 
> Why are the good wishes to gentlemen only?

	Proverbial gentlemen. Ladies and other gender denominations are,
naturally, all included <3

Francisco

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#207039

On Friday 05 April 2019 09:03:40 Francisco M Neto wrote:

> Greetings!
>
> On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 14:46 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > To add to what Curt and Reco have said:  Running Synaptic using a
> > Wayland/Gnome combo,by clicking on an icon, it doesn't start.  Not
> > very helpful, I think you'll agree. Especially for software that's
> > aimed squarely at GUI users.  Started from a shell an error is,
> > however, reported.  It's unfortunate that, as yet, a remedy has not
> > been forthcoming.
>
> 	Thanks for your input, and Curt and Reco as well.
>
> 	I'm not a big user of Synaptic myself, although sometimes it's easier
> to mark several packages and not worry about dependencies, instead of
> going through all the trouble of making several apt searches in
> command line.
>
> \begin{rant}
>
> 	That being said, my *main* beef with Synaptic being out of Buster is
> an entirely different matter. I would not object to removing it from
> the release, *if* a viable alternative was available with at least the
> same level of functionality, which does *not* seem to be the case.
> 	What is even worse, though, is the attitude of some people about
> that. I asked the same question I asked in my previous email in
> #debian-next yesterday, only to leave the channel before the flamewar
> became full fledged. I was "gently" reminded by certain people there
> of why, in the end, I have never gone all the way into trying to
> become a DM or a DD. Synaptic, which provides a very useful
> functionality to a large number of users, was unapologetically removed
> from the release because it does not work with the "default"
> installation. Which is understandable, but also extreme. If someone
> happens to *not* use the default installation, be it by not using
> Gnome, or not using Wayland, they are kept from updating an important
> piece of their maintenance toolkit. And that's inexcusable, especially
> when all they can say about it is "maintainer didn't do his job" or
> "if you want this fixed, do it yourself".
> 	Well, no. Being a free software user or even a Debian enthusiast does
> not make me a specialist in packaging, or in Synaptic internals, or
> Wayland internals for that matter. When someone who claims to be a
> Debian Developer or Maintainer or whatever, who is in a position of
> being responsible for ensuring that the release is as good as it can
> be, excuses themselves from fixing a Release Critical bug just because
> "they have better things to do", they are not doing a very good job.
> And, to be quite honest, I don't think they should be in that
> position.
>
> 	Sadly, it's an attitude that I have encountered more often than not
> when trying to dialogue with people involved in Debian (or in Gnome,
> by the way). And that's just very sad.
>
> \end{rant}
>
> Have a good day, gentlemen.
> Francisco

Extremely well said, Francisco

Attitudes do not seem to be improving despite the beatings. Perhaps we 
should start a go-fund-me for a few beers now & then?

TANSTAAFL applies here too folks.

We all tend to forget these guys like to eat and pay the rent, so most 
have a $dayjob unless a student with an arm long enough to reach Daddy's 
wallet.  And we users should not so readily forget that.

Sadly there are times when I too am blatantly forgetfull of that. Thanks 
to all the people that make debian happen.

 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#207058

	Received from Gene on Fri, 5 Apr 2019 13:42:57 -0400 Re:
	'synaptic' removed from buster

> We all tend to forget these guys like to eat and pay the rent, so
> most have a $dayjob unless a student with an arm long enough to reach
> Daddy's wallet. And we users should not so readily forget that.

> Sadly there are times when I too am blatantly forgetfull of that.
> Thanks to all the people that make debian happen.

I have to second Gene's sentiments. Because in truth, have the same
lapse sometimes for just a moment. We know so little about those who
code, maintain and manage the whole Debian operating system and the
individual packages.

As well, we never get the whole story. A maintainer or one who has/is
working on the coding of a package may be told that something just
doesn't fit into the whole tapestry, leaving a piece hanging or
creating a loop that might be snagged.

How many have submitted work that has brought them great joy and had it
knocked back for some reason to be redone, or parts to be redone? We
don't read about it. because certainly in my case, don't know where
to look, so are unable to say, thank you for your efforts.

I know nothing about writing code, or much about computers [that's
probably why some of the terminology used may be rubbish] so am unable
to help as my infrequent posts to this list indicate. I bludge off the
work of others who know more and can/do more with computers and those
on this list who share information.

Volunteering in various fields I know a little about, the reason I am
unable to contribute to the maintainers, coders and others who do what
they can when they can for Debian and it's packages. Understand the
frustration that those who volunteer for Debian might feel.

I admit to momentary frustration when something doesn't work as I would
wish, or as it did in the past. But know in Testing this does happen.
Take time to consider all those working, often as volunteers, to
create something that will, when ready, give me great pleasure and
increase my productivity.

Though I write it too seldom, I appreciate all the work that is done,
and all those who do it to make Debian what it is today. More strength
to your arm,

Stay well,
Charlie

	East Gippsland Wildlife Rehabilitators Inc..
                     http://www.egwildlife.com.au/

-- 
	Registered Linux User:- 329524
	***********************************************

	The world is full of magic things, patiently waiting for our
	senses to grow sharper. ---W.B. Yeats

	***********************************************

	Debian GNU/Linux - Magic indeed.

	-----------------------------------------------------

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#206955

On Thursday 04 April 2019 07:33:13 Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 15:58:33 +0500
> "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello Alexander,
>
> >Considering the date, it must be an April Fool's joke.
>
> It's not.
>
> >If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories
> >some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages
> >before.
>
> Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for it
> to be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome is
> considered (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.

For gnome maybe.I can't nuke that paranoid POS quick enough.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#206950

On 2019-04-04, David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> wrote:
> People accustomed to using synaptic might want to begin considering
> alternative tools, because synaptic has been removed from buster.
>
> More info:
> https://tracker.debian.org/news/1037065/synaptic-removed-from-testing/
> https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/synaptic
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=818366#55
> https://release.debian.org/buster/freeze_policy.html
> https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/b7ylny/synaptic_no_longer_in_buster_should_i_start/
>
>

Owlett's gonna be pissed.

Synaptic doesn't play nice with the Wayland protocol, Gnome desktop with
Wayland is the new default desktop/login mode in Buster, so Synaptic's out? 

Lots of veteran newbies will be seriously discombobulated if they don't have 
their Synaptic, I'd guess.

https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland

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#206961

On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 at 23:21, Curt <curty@free.fr> wrote:
> On 2019-04-04, David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> wrote:

> > People accustomed to using synaptic might want to begin considering
> > alternative tools, because synaptic has been removed from buster.

> Owlett's gonna be pissed.

On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 at 00:26, Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> wrote:

> At this point, the same cognoscenti who bemoan Linux lacking market
> penetration tell him to go read some techie manuals and perform arcane
> incantations. As true ostriches they insist the problem is "operator error".

Ok, let's avoid arcane incantations then ...

Maybe it's time to try Ubuntu, they do a MATE version. [1]
Abandon the ostriches and embrace the market-penetrating Bionic Beaver.

[1] https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/

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#207024

On 04/04/2019 07:20 AM, Curt wrote:
> On 2019-04-04, David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> wrote:
>> People accustomed to using synaptic might want to begin considering
>> alternative tools, because synaptic has been removed from buster.
>>
>> More info:
>> https://tracker.debian.org/news/1037065/synaptic-removed-from-testing/
>> https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/synaptic
>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=818366#55
>> https://release.debian.org/buster/freeze_policy.html
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/b7ylny/synaptic_no_longer_in_buster_should_i_start/
>>
>>
> 
> Owlett's gonna be pissed.

Unsupportable presumption.
If I find Buster "broken" [my definition], I skip that release.
I have no problems with Stretch.

I installed Buster *only* because an application I'm investigating 
requires the version of Python in Buster. I have a personal preference 
to not use back-ports. I generally avoid testing to the extent that when 
a release moves from testing to stable, I wait for at least one point 
release before installing.

I don't recall why, but I installed Stretch before it was "stable". I 
had no problems. That encouraged me to try Buster. Doubt very much if my 
recent problems with Synaptic have much to do directly with Buster. 
[BUG745381 comes close to my concerns]

> 
> Synaptic doesn't play nice with the Wayland protocol, Gnome desktop with
> Wayland is the new default desktop/login mode in Buster, so Synaptic's out?

I agree with one comment on Bug818366 says in part:
" ... if synaptic can't be run on the default desktop in the default
login mode, isn't the average user better of if we don't ship synaptic 
with buster?"
I am NOT a Gnome user, but I understand my much preferred desktop, MATE, 
is likely to have related problems.


> 
> Lots of veteran newbies will be seriously discombobulated if they don't have
> their Synaptic, I'd guess.

Am I a "veteran newbie", or just someone with a different experience and 
set of goals than you?
I took my first programming course before Linus created Linux [in fact 
years before he was born ;] Although some of my jobs involved 
programming, I never classed myself as a "programmer". I abandoned M$ 
because they thought they new my needs/desires better than I.

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#207045

Hello,

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 07:44:32AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> I installed Buster *only* because an application I'm investigating requires
> the version of Python in Buster.

Another option may be to use "virtualenv" or a similar trick to run
just the upstream Python and required modules atop a normal Debian
stable.

    https://www.pythonforbeginners.com/basics/how-to-use-python-virtualenv

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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#207047

On 04/05/2019 01:36 PM, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 07:44:32AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
>> I installed Buster *only* because an application I'm investigating requires
>> the version of Python in Buster.
> 
> Another option may be to use "virtualenv" or a similar trick to run
> just the upstream Python and required modules atop a normal Debian
> stable.
> 
>      https://www.pythonforbeginners.com/basics/how-to-use-python-virtualenv
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 

I suspect I'll go the back-port route. I prefer to learn tools that 
increase my Debian experience over experience with a particular package.
Thanks.

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#206953

On Thursday 04 April 2019 06:52:35 David wrote:

> People accustomed to using synaptic might want to begin considering
> alternative tools, because synaptic has been removed from buster.
>
> More info:
> https://tracker.debian.org/news/1037065/synaptic-removed-from-testing/
> https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/synaptic
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=818366#55
> https://release.debian.org/buster/freeze_policy.html
> https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/b7ylny/synaptic_no_longer_in_
>buster_should_i_start/

We need tar, hot tar, and feathers, lots of them.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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