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Groups > linux.debian.user > #206946 > unrolled thread
| Started by | David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2019-04-04 13:00 +0200 |
| Last post | 2019-04-04 15:00 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 80 — 24 participants |
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'synaptic' removed from buster David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2019-04-04 13:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2019-04-04 13:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2019-04-04 13:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> - 2019-04-04 14:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-04 15:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-04-05 17:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-05 17:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 23:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 00:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 01:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 01:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-06 04:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-04-06 09:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-10 18:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Nazar Zhuk <nazar@zhuk.online> - 2019-04-11 00:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Lee <ler762@gmail.com> - 2019-04-11 01:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-11 05:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-11 05:20 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Nazar Zhuk <nazar@zhuk.online> - 2019-04-11 21:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-11 22:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-06 15:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-09 22:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-06 10:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-04-06 10:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 11:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Dominic Knight <dominicknight@gmx.com> - 2019-04-06 12:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-09 22:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster rhkramer@gmail.com - 2019-04-06 14:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-06 15:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-04-08 14:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jan Claeys <lists@janc.be> - 2019-04-06 14:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-04 15:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-04 16:20 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-04 18:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-04 21:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 20:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-04-04 19:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2019-04-04 19:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-04 21:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-04-04 22:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-04 22:20 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2019-04-04 22:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-04-05 17:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-05 20:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-06 05:20 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-06 15:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-09 22:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jan Claeys <lists@janc.be> - 2019-04-05 21:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-05 22:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-05 22:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jan Claeys <lists@janc.be> - 2019-04-06 15:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> - 2019-04-06 01:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2019-04-05 17:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 08:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-05 08:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 09:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-05 12:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 12:20 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-05 12:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-05 13:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 13:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2019-04-05 14:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 13:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2019-04-05 22:20 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 03:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-05 11:10 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 12:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> - 2019-04-04 15:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> - 2019-04-05 15:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2019-04-05 15:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> - 2019-04-05 17:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-05 19:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Charlie <taoquester@gmail.com> - 2019-04-06 00:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-04 15:00 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2019-04-04 14:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2019-04-04 16:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-04-05 14:50 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2019-04-05 20:40 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2019-04-05 21:30 +0200
Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2019-04-04 15:00 +0200
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| From | David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-04 13:00 +0200 |
| Subject | 'synaptic' removed from buster |
| Message-ID | <xJ8g9-im-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
People accustomed to using synaptic might want to begin considering alternative tools, because synaptic has been removed from buster. More info: https://tracker.debian.org/news/1037065/synaptic-removed-from-testing/ https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/synaptic https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=818366#55 https://release.debian.org/buster/freeze_policy.html https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/b7ylny/synaptic_no_longer_in_buster_should_i_start/
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| From | "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-04 13:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJ8ga-im-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206946 |
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On 04.04.2019 15:52, David wrote: > People accustomed to using synaptic might want to begin considering > alternative tools, because synaptic has been removed from buster. > > More info: > https://tracker.debian.org/news/1037065/synaptic-removed-from-testing/ > https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/synaptic > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=818366#55 > https://release.debian.org/buster/freeze_policy.html > https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/b7ylny/synaptic_no_longer_in_buster_should_i_start/ > Considering the date, it must be an April Fool's joke. If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages before. -- With kindest regards, Alexander. ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀
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| From | Brad Rogers <brad@fineby.me.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-04 13:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJ8SS-L9-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206947 |
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On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 15:58:33 +0500
"Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Alexander,
>Considering the date, it must be an April Fool's joke.
It's not.
>If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories
>some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages
>before.
Indeed. Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for it to
be re-instated. However, not working properly in Gnome is considered
(understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.
--
Regards _
/ ) "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)rad never immediately apparent"
It's not your heart, it's your bank I want to break
It's Yer Money - Wonder Stuff
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| From | Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-04 14:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJ9YB-1ot-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206948 |
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On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote: > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages > > before. > > Indeed. Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for it to > be re-instated. However, not working properly in Gnome is considered > (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper. What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been using both without a single hiccup for years... --Francisco
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| From | Curt <curty@free.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-04 15:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJa8i-1rV-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206952 |
On 2019-04-04, Francisco M Neto <fmneto@fmneto.com.br> wrote: > > > On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote: >> If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories >> > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages >> > before. >>=20 >> Indeed. Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for it to >> be re-instated. However, not working properly in Gnome is considered >> (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper. > > What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been using both > without a single hiccup for years... > My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo (which is the default combo starting with Buster).
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| From | Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-05 17:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJyDE-7Y-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #206954 |
On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -0000, Curt wrote: >My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo (which >is the default combo starting with Buster). The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop choice. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
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| From | Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-05 17:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJzgl-lu-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207031 |
Hi. On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:01:50PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -0000, Curt wrote: > > My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo (which > > is the default combo starting with Buster). > > The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop choice. ... on amd64/i386 only. Whenever Wayland is the problem or the solution, punishing all other supported architectures seems extreme. Reco
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| From | Lee <ler762@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-05 23:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJEg1-3BQ-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207035 |
On 4/5/19, Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote:
> Hi.
>
> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:01:50PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -0000, Curt wrote:
>> > My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo (which
>> > is the default combo starting with Buster).
>>
>> The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop choice.
>
> ... on amd64/i386 only. Whenever Wayland is the problem or the solution,
> punishing all other supported architectures seems extreme.
That's what I don't understand. Why remove the package if it's only a
problem with some desktops?
https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland
Unsupported Desktop environments:
Cinnamon: discussed
MATE: planned, source (2014)
XFCE: planned
Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is
installed/selected & not install synaptic? Or patch synaptic to
realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and quit?
Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a bit much.
Lee
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| From | Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-06 00:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJFF8-4qM-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207055 |
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I just found this Ubuntu announcement from January. 17.10 had picked up wayland. But 18.04 dropped back to X.org due to stability and app compatibility issues: https://www.neowin.net/news/ubuntu-1804-will-revert-to-long-in-the-tooth-xorg On Fri, Apr 5, 2019, 4:01 PM Lee <ler762@gmail.com> wrote: > On 4/5/19, Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote: > > Hi. > > > > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:01:50PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -0000, Curt wrote: > >> > My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo (which > >> > is the default combo starting with Buster). > >> > >> The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop choice. > > > > ... on amd64/i386 only. Whenever Wayland is the problem or the solution, > > punishing all other supported architectures seems extreme. > > That's what I don't understand. Why remove the package if it's only a > problem with some desktops? > > https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland > Unsupported Desktop environments: > Cinnamon: discussed > MATE: planned, source (2014) > XFCE: planned > > Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is > installed/selected & not install synaptic? Or patch synaptic to > realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and quit? > > Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a bit > much. > > Lee > >
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| From | Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-06 01:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJFYt-4y8-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207059 |
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I just found this Ubuntu announcement from January. 17.03 had picked up wayland. But 18.04 dropped back to X.org. https://www.neowin.net/news/ubuntu-1804-will-revert-to-long-in-the-tooth-xorg On Fri, Apr 5, 2019, 4:01 PM Lee <ler762@gmail.com> wrote: > On 4/5/19, Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote: > > Hi. > > > > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:01:50PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -0000, Curt wrote: > >> > My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo (which > >> > is the default combo starting with Buster). > >> > >> The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop choice. > > > > ... on amd64/i386 only. Whenever Wayland is the problem or the solution, > > punishing all other supported architectures seems extreme. > > That's what I don't understand. Why remove the package if it's only a > problem with some desktops? > > https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland > Unsupported Desktop environments: > Cinnamon: discussed > MATE: planned, source (2014) > XFCE: planned > > Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is > installed/selected & not install synaptic? Or patch synaptic to > realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and quit? > > Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a bit > much. > > Lee > >
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| From | David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-06 01:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJGKS-54J-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207059 |
On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 09:35, Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> wrote: > > I just found this Ubuntu announcement from January. 17.10 had picked up wayland. But 18.04 dropped back to X.org due to stability and app compatibility issues: > https://www.neowin.net/news/ubuntu-1804-will-revert-to-long-in-the-tooth-xorg Thanks for the information. For anyone who prefers to read the source without the middleman, it links to the actual Ubuntu announcement here: https://blog.ubuntu.com/2018/01/26/bionic-beaver-18-04-lts-to-use-xorg-by-default
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-06 04:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJJpn-6OE-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207055 |
On Fri 05 Apr 2019 at 17:01:33 (-0400), Lee wrote:
> On 4/5/19, Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:01:50PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> >> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -0000, Curt wrote:
> >> > My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo (which
> >> > is the default combo starting with Buster).
> >>
> >> The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop choice.
> >
> > ... on amd64/i386 only. Whenever Wayland is the problem or the solution,
> > punishing all other supported architectures seems extreme.
>
> That's what I don't understand. Why remove the package if it's only a
> problem with some desktops?
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland
> Unsupported Desktop environments:
> Cinnamon: discussed
> MATE: planned, source (2014)
> XFCE: planned
>
> Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is
> installed/selected & not install synaptic? Or patch synaptic to
> realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and quit?
I think a better solution would be what's suggested in message #60
of the bug report:
"Why not make a [Conflicts:] with Wayland / Gnome? It's not
possible to make sure that synaptic installs on a [Conflicts:]
that would remove Wayland?"
This is probably the easiest option to support as it should be
possible to implement just by adding a line to the two Packages
files for the architectures affected.
> Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a bit much.
Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way
because there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until
a few people started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using
it myself on X except as an ordinary user.
Cheers,
David.
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| From | Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-06 09:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xJOfo-1ks-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207064 |
On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote: > "Why not make a [Conflicts:] with Wayland / Gnome? It's not > possible to make sure that synaptic installs on a [Conflicts:] > that would remove Wayland?" > >This is probably the easiest option to support as it should be >possible to implement just by adding a line to the two Packages >files for the architectures affected. This is not a proper use of Conflicts:. Xorg and Wayland stuff can be installed side-by-side. Synaptic works fine on Gnome/Xorg. A conflicts: against Gnome would be nonsensical; a conflicts: against Wayland would prevent installing Wayland on a system that has Synaptic already, even if there was no intention to use them together; or prevent Synaptic installing on a system with Wayland present, even if it wasn't in use. >Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way because >there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few people >started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself on X except >as an ordinary user. The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its autoremoval) would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So changing *that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-10 18:10 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xLnXs-3Bv-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207066 |
On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 08:42:31 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote: > > "Why not make a [Conflicts:] with Wayland / Gnome? It's not > > possible to make sure that synaptic installs on a [Conflicts:] > > that would remove Wayland?" > > > > This is probably the easiest option to support as it should be > > possible to implement just by adding a line to the two Packages > > files for the architectures affected. > > This is not a proper use of Conflicts:. > > Xorg and Wayland stuff can be installed side-by-side. Synaptic works fine on > Gnome/Xorg. A conflicts: against Gnome would be nonsensical; a conflicts: > against Wayland would prevent installing Wayland on a system that has Synaptic > already, even if there was no intention to use them together; or prevent > Synaptic installing on a system with Wayland present, even if it wasn't in use. I think you're right, so perhaps NEWS.Debian is the way to go. > > Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way because > > there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few people > > started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself on X except > > as an ordinary user. > > The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its autoremoval) > would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So changing > *that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced. So Debian should have its policy dictated by bugs in an unrelated package. Seems an odd strategy. Cheers, David.
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| From | Nazar Zhuk <nazar@zhuk.online> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-11 00:40 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xLu2R-7fZ-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207253 |
On 4/10/19 10:58 AM, David Wright wrote: > On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 08:42:31 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote: >> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote: >>> Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way because >>> there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few people >>> started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself on X except >>> as an ordinary user. >> >> The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its autoremoval) >> would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So changing >> *that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced. > > So Debian should have its policy dictated by bugs in an unrelated > package. Seems an odd strategy. If a change (Wayland default) is introducing issues to a stable (in a generic sense) system, shouldn't the change be postponed until the issues are resolved? Perhaps with the help from the change proponents. -- Nazar
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| From | Lee <ler762@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-11 01:50 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xLv8B-7So-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207276 |
On 4/10/19, Nazar Zhuk wrote: > On 4/10/19 10:58 AM, David Wright wrote: >> On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 08:42:31 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote: >>> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote: > >>>> Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way >>>> because >>>> there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few >>>> people >>>> started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself on X >>>> except >>>> as an ordinary user. >>> >>> The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its >>> autoremoval) >>> would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So >>> changing >>> *that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced. >> >> So Debian should have its policy dictated by bugs in an unrelated >> package. Seems an odd strategy. > > If a change (Wayland default) is introducing issues to a stable (in a > generic sense) system, shouldn't the change be postponed until the > issues are resolved? Perhaps with the help from the change proponents. My understanding is that sudo synaptic not working for anybody other than root is a desired feature of Wayland - not something that would or should be fixed. But I'm also under the impression that logging in as root & running synaptic works, so removing synaptic altogether still seems a bit excessive. Lee
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-11 05:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xLyzv-1Gw-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207280 |
On Wed 10 Apr 2019 at 19:41:44 (-0400), Lee wrote: > On 4/10/19, Nazar Zhuk wrote: > > On 4/10/19 10:58 AM, David Wright wrote: > >> On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 08:42:31 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote: > >>> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote: > > > >>>> Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way > >>>> because > >>>> there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few > >>>> people > >>>> started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself on X > >>>> except > >>>> as an ordinary user. > >>> > >>> The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its > >>> autoremoval) > >>> would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So > >>> changing > >>> *that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced. > >> > >> So Debian should have its policy dictated by bugs in an unrelated > >> package. Seems an odd strategy. > > > > If a change (Wayland default) is introducing issues to a stable (in a > > generic sense) system, shouldn't the change be postponed until the > > issues are resolved? Perhaps with the help from the change proponents. > > My understanding is that > sudo synaptic > not working for anybody other than root is a desired feature of > Wayland - not something that would or should be fixed. > > But I'm also under the impression that logging in as root & running > synaptic works, so removing synaptic altogether still seems a bit > excessive. I would be surprised if wayland itself, and whatever it's being supported by, will allow you to run them as root. That's not the direction things are moving in, securitywise. Cheers, David.
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-11 05:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xLypP-1Dh-1@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207276 |
On Thu 11 Apr 2019 at 00:34:04 (+0200), Nazar Zhuk wrote:
> On 4/10/19 10:58 AM, David Wright wrote:
> > On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 08:42:31 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
>
> > > > Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way because
> > > > there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few people
> > > > started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself on X except
> > > > as an ordinary user.
> > >
> > > The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its autoremoval)
> > > would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So changing
> > > *that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced.
> >
> > So Debian should have its policy dictated by bugs in an unrelated
> > package. Seems an odd strategy.
>
> If a change (Wayland default) is introducing issues to a stable (in a
> generic sense) system, shouldn't the change be postponed until the
> issues are resolved? Perhaps with the help from the change proponents.
I don't think it's an issue that'll be resolved in the direction you
intend. It's the enforcement of a security model that has guided most
of us for years: not running GUI applications as root.
The normal way of circumventing this is to have a non-GUI program that
performs all the work running as root, with a connection to a GUI
client program that runs as the user/administrator.
I'm not in a position to know whether running programs like gparted is
secure enough if the network is disconnected while it is running on,
say, a live system. But for synaptic, it might be written in such a
way that you can get the resolver to run with your friendly interface
as an ordinary user, and then use apt-get, say, to install the list
of packages that synaptic has come up with. Does the latter have a
dry-run option (like -s in apt-get, demonstrated here:)?
$ apt-get -s install synaptic
NOTE: This is only a simulation!
apt-get needs root privileges for real execution.
Keep also in mind that locking is deactivated,
so don't depend on the relevance to the real current situation!
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following additional packages will be installed:
docbook-xml libcairo-perl libept1.5.0 libglib-perl libgtk2-perl libpango-perl libpcre2-8-0
librarian0 libvte-2.91-0 libvte-2.91-common rarian-compat sgml-data
Suggested packages:
docbook docbook-dsssl docbook-xsl docbook-defguide libfont-freetype-perl libgtk2-perl-doc
perlsgml w3-recs opensp libxml2-utils dwww apt-xapian-index software-properties-gtk
The following NEW packages will be installed:
docbook-xml libcairo-perl libept1.5.0 libglib-perl libgtk2-perl libpango-perl libpcre2-8-0
librarian0 libvte-2.91-0 libvte-2.91-common rarian-compat sgml-data synaptic
0 upgraded, 13 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Inst sgml-data (2.0.10 Debian:9.8/stable [all])
[… snipped most of the install and configure lines …]
Conf rarian-compat (0.8.1-6+b1 Debian:9.8/stable [amd64])
$
Cheers,
David.
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| From | Nazar Zhuk <nazar@zhuk.online> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-11 21:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xLN5v-27h-5@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207287 |
On 4/10/19 10:10 PM, David Wright wrote: > On Thu 11 Apr 2019 at 00:34:04 (+0200), Nazar Zhuk wrote: >> On 4/10/19 10:58 AM, David Wright wrote: >>> On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 08:42:31 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote: >>>> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote: >> >>>>> Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way because >>>>> there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few people >>>>> started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself on X except >>>>> as an ordinary user. >>>> >>>> The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its autoremoval) >>>> would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So changing >>>> *that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced. >>> >>> So Debian should have its policy dictated by bugs in an unrelated >>> package. Seems an odd strategy. >> >> If a change (Wayland default) is introducing issues to a stable (in a >> generic sense) system, shouldn't the change be postponed until the >> issues are resolved? Perhaps with the help from the change proponents. > > I don't think it's an issue that'll be resolved in the direction you > intend. It's the enforcement of a security model that has guided most > of us for years: not running GUI applications as root. In all of history of UNIX and Linux, root means root. You know what you are doing and accept the risks. rm -rf /, vim or wget under root are dangerous too. And Wayland doesn't actually change that, since nothing can, root is still root. You can do: xhost +SI:localuser:root and run whatever you want as root. This is exactly what the latest gparted does [1]. So this "security model" boils down to an annoyance. [1] https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gparted/blob/master/gparted.in#L70 > The normal way of circumventing this is to have a non-GUI program that > performs all the work running as root, with a connection to a GUI > client program that runs as the user/administrator. Yes, that is the Wayland way. And it's now Wayland way or no way for all, not just Wayland users. > ... for synaptic, it might be written in such a > way that you can get the resolver to run with your friendly interface > as an ordinary user, and then use apt-get, say, to install the list > of packages that synaptic has come up with. ... Or just wrap it with a shell script that adds/removes root with xhost like gparted does, unless somebody has a compelling desire to *implement* (as opposed to force someone else to implement) "Wayland way". I tested this and it works like a charm. These are the things that should be considered and resolved when making a breaking change (Wayland default). -- Nazar
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2019-04-11 22:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <xLOuC-37X-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #207338 |
On Thu 11 Apr 2019 at 20:55:20 (+0200), Nazar Zhuk wrote: > On 4/10/19 10:10 PM, David Wright wrote: > > On Thu 11 Apr 2019 at 00:34:04 (+0200), Nazar Zhuk wrote: > > > On 4/10/19 10:58 AM, David Wright wrote: > > > > On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 08:42:31 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote: > > > > > > > > > Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way because > > > > > > there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few people > > > > > > started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself on X except > > > > > > as an ordinary user. > > > > > > > > > > The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its autoremoval) > > > > > would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So changing > > > > > *that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced. > > > > > > > > So Debian should have its policy dictated by bugs in an unrelated > > > > package. Seems an odd strategy. > > > > > > If a change (Wayland default) is introducing issues to a stable (in a > > > generic sense) system, shouldn't the change be postponed until the > > > issues are resolved? Perhaps with the help from the change proponents. > > > > I don't think it's an issue that'll be resolved in the direction you > > intend. It's the enforcement of a security model that has guided most > > of us for years: not running GUI applications as root. > > In all of history of UNIX and Linux, root means root. You know what > you are doing and accept the risks. rm -rf /, vim or wget under root > are dangerous too. The first of these examples is only dangerous if you type it into root's commandline. Once you've pressed <Return>, it's suicidal. The others are why I've never run, say, emacs or mc as root. I've always used nano (from potato, ae until then) and core utilities. > And Wayland doesn't actually change that, since nothing can, root is > still root. You can do: > > xhost +SI:localuser:root > > and run whatever you want as root. This is exactly what the latest > gparted does [1]. > > So this "security model" boils down to an annoyance. > > [1] https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gparted/blob/master/gparted.in#L70 Of course it does. Dealing with security is annoying. People lock their doors, install alarms, can't cut their food on aeroplanes, can't drink in sports venues. On linux, you can cut all that out at a stroke, just use root. That's what many windows users do, they just run as administrator all the time. And taking those risks is unacceptable here. > > The normal way of circumventing this is to have a non-GUI program that > > performs all the work running as root, with a connection to a GUI > > client program that runs as the user/administrator. > > Yes, that is the Wayland way. And it's now Wayland way or no way for > all, not just Wayland users. That's not the "Wayland way"—it's always been the way. Why? Because it dramatically cuts the amount of security auditing that needs doing. If you run graphical toolkits as root, you introduce huge amounts of vulnerable code into the audit. (Look at gparted's dependencies.) > > ... for synaptic, it might be written in such a > > way that you can get the resolver to run with your friendly interface > > as an ordinary user, and then use apt-get, say, to install the list > > of packages that synaptic has come up with. ... > > Or just wrap it with a shell script that adds/removes root with xhost > like gparted does, unless somebody has a compelling desire to > *implement* (as opposed to force someone else to implement) "Wayland > way". > > I tested this and it works like a charm. Of course it does. But cross your fingers and cling to your lucky charm while you're doing so. > These are the things that should be considered and resolved when > making a breaking change (Wayland default). Yes, they have been considered, and found wanting. That's my point. That's why lots of people laboured to make X run as a user process, for example. Sensible people prefer not to move backwards. Cheers, David.
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