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WRITING to NTFS drives

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  WRITING to NTFS drives deb <deb@rangingthoughts.org> - 2019-03-11 19:20 +0100
    Re: WRITING to NTFS drives Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-03-11 19:50 +0100
      Joe - Re: WRITING to NTFS drives deb <deb@rangingthoughts.org> - 2019-03-11 20:10 +0100
        Re: Joe - Re: WRITING to NTFS drives Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2019-03-11 21:00 +0100
    Re: WRITING to NTFS drives "Alexander V. Makartsev" <avbetev@gmail.com> - 2019-03-11 20:50 +0100
      Alexander -- Re: WRITING to NTFS drives deb <deb@rangingthoughts.org> - 2019-03-13 00:40 +0100
    Re: WRITING to NTFS drives Thomas D Dial <tdial@acm.org> - 2019-03-11 21:00 +0100
      Tom --- Re: WRITING to NTFS drives deb <deb@rangingthoughts.org> - 2019-03-13 00:50 +0100
    Re: WRITING to NTFS drives David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2019-03-13 03:00 +0100
      David --- Re: WRITING to NTFS drives deb <deb@rangingthoughts.org> - 2019-03-13 16:20 +0100
        Re: David --- Re: WRITING to NTFS drives Thomas D Dial <tdial@acm.org> - 2019-03-13 21:10 +0100
          (Thank you Tom) Re: David --- Re: WRITING to NTFS drives deb <deb@rangingthoughts.org> - 2019-03-13 21:30 +0100
            Re: (Thank you Tom) Re: David --- Re: WRITING to NTFS drives Linux-Fan <Ma_Sys.ma@web.de> - 2019-03-13 22:00 +0100
              Re: (Thank you Tom) Re: David --- Re: WRITING to NTFS drives Thomas D Dial <tdial@acm.org> - 2019-03-14 03:20 +0100
    Re: WRITING to NTFS drives Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2019-05-28 08:50 +0200
    Re: WRITING to NTFS drives mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-05-29 07:30 +0200
      Re: WRITING to NTFS drives deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-05-29 08:30 +0200
        Re: WRITING to NTFS drives mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-05-29 09:40 +0200
          Re: WRITING to NTFS drives deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2019-05-29 12:20 +0200
            Re: WRITING to NTFS drives mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2019-05-29 18:40 +0200
    Re: WRITING to NTFS drives songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2019-05-29 17:40 +0200
      Re: WRITING to NTFS drives Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2019-05-31 09:00 +0200

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#206161 — WRITING to NTFS drives

I saw this question come up

and it set off bells.


Someone asked what the status of WRITING to NTFS drives was.

That it was not yet supported (?) .



*MY* Assumptions:

  * MIXED NETWORK, with Win, Mac, Linux (EXT4 formatted).

  * many portable 1-5TB drives making the rounds, formatted with NTFS.

  * data loss is unacceptable [to the highest degree that is possible].



I know that I can read (and verify) files just fine from NTFS on Debian 9.8

but [if you have direct experience with this]

is writing to these drives from debian actually safe?


[if you have direct experience with this]

what process/tool(s) do you use to validate the writes?


What are other places to ask this?


Thank you!

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#206165

On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 14:13:38 -0400
deb <deb@rangingthoughts.org> wrote:

> I saw this question come up
> 
> and it set off bells.
> 
> 
> Someone asked what the status of WRITING to NTFS drives was.
> 
> That it was not yet supported (?) .
> 

I don't think that has been true for several years, though it certainly
was at one time.

> 
> 
> *MY* Assumptions:
> 
>   * MIXED NETWORK, with Win, Mac, Linux (EXT4 formatted).
> 
>   * many portable 1-5TB drives making the rounds, formatted with NTFS.
> 
>   * data loss is unacceptable [to the highest degree that is
> possible].
> 
> 
> 
> I know that I can read (and verify) files just fine from NTFS on
> Debian 9.8
> 
> but [if you have direct experience with this]
> 
> is writing to these drives from debian actually safe?
> 
> 
> [if you have direct experience with this]
> 
> what process/tool(s) do you use to validate the writes?
> 

Yes, that is my current belief. If I need media that supports larger
files than FAT provides for, between OSes, I have no hesitation in using
NTFS.

BUT... if I have the means easily available, and I usually do, I would
initially format the media in Windows. I don't suppose its actually
necessary, but in the past I've seen Windows complain about the
formatting of media carried out under Linux, though never to the point
of losing data. I have a couple of USB sticks in current use that
Windows always complains about and offers to fix (though it never
does). It costs me nothing to be sure. 

Similarly, there are programs running on Windows that can deal with
various extN filesystems, but I would never use such a program for an
initial formatting if I also had a Linux machine available. Why take a
chance?

-- 
Joe

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#206167 — Joe - Re: WRITING to NTFS drives

On 3/11/19 2:47 PM, Joe wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 14:13:38 -0400
> deb <deb@rangingthoughts.org> wrote:
>
>> I saw this question come up
>>
>> and it set off bells.
>>
>>
>> Someone asked what the status of WRITING to NTFS drives was.
>>
>> That it was not yet supported (?) .
>>
> I don't think that has been true for several years, though it certainly
> was at one time.
>
>>
>> *MY* Assumptions:
>>
>>    * MIXED NETWORK, with Win, Mac, Linux (EXT4 formatted).
>>
>>    * many portable 1-5TB drives making the rounds, formatted with NTFS.
>>
>>    * data loss is unacceptable [to the highest degree that is
>> possible].
>>
>>
>>
>> I know that I can read (and verify) files just fine from NTFS on
>> Debian 9.8
>>
>> but [if you have direct experience with this]
>>
>> is writing to these drives from debian actually safe?
>>
>>
>> [if you have direct experience with this]
>>
>> what process/tool(s) do you use to validate the writes?
>>
> Yes, that is my current belief. If I need media that supports larger
> files than FAT provides for, between OSes, I have no hesitation in using
> NTFS.
>
> BUT... if I have the means easily available, and I usually do, I would
> initially format the media in Windows. I don't suppose its actually
> necessary, but in the past I've seen Windows complain about the
> formatting of media carried out under Linux, though never to the point
> of losing data. I have a couple of USB sticks in current use that
> Windows always complains about and offers to fix (though it never
> does). It costs me nothing to be sure.
>
> Similarly, there are programs running on Windows that can deal with
> various extN filesystems, but I would never use such a program for an
> initial formatting if I also had a Linux machine available. Why take a
> chance?
>

Joe:


a. Whew!

b. Understood on NTFS drives should be formatted on Windows machines.


The very last thing that I want to do is to have systematic data 
corruption on Windowsy drives traced back to Linux-anything.


Thank you!

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#206171 — Re: Joe - Re: WRITING to NTFS drives

On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 14:59:25 -0400
deb <deb@rangingthoughts.org> wrote:

> On 3/11/19 2:47 PM, Joe wrote:
> > On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 14:13:38 -0400
> > deb <deb@rangingthoughts.org> wrote:
> >  
> >> I saw this question come up
> >>
> >> and it set off bells.
> >>
> >>
> >> Someone asked what the status of WRITING to NTFS drives was.
> >>
> >> That it was not yet supported (?) .
> >>  
> > I don't think that has been true for several years, though it
> > certainly was at one time.
> >  
> >>
> >> *MY* Assumptions:
> >>
> >>    * MIXED NETWORK, with Win, Mac, Linux (EXT4 formatted).
> >>
> >>    * many portable 1-5TB drives making the rounds, formatted with
> >> NTFS.
> >>
> >>    * data loss is unacceptable [to the highest degree that is
> >> possible].
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I know that I can read (and verify) files just fine from NTFS on
> >> Debian 9.8
> >>
> >> but [if you have direct experience with this]
> >>
> >> is writing to these drives from debian actually safe?
> >>
> >>
> >> [if you have direct experience with this]
> >>
> >> what process/tool(s) do you use to validate the writes?
> >>  
> > Yes, that is my current belief. If I need media that supports larger
> > files than FAT provides for, between OSes, I have no hesitation in
> > using NTFS.
> >
> > BUT... if I have the means easily available, and I usually do, I
> > would initially format the media in Windows. I don't suppose its
> > actually necessary, but in the past I've seen Windows complain
> > about the formatting of media carried out under Linux, though never
> > to the point of losing data. I have a couple of USB sticks in
> > current use that Windows always complains about and offers to fix
> > (though it never does). It costs me nothing to be sure.
> >
> > Similarly, there are programs running on Windows that can deal with
> > various extN filesystems, but I would never use such a program for
> > an initial formatting if I also had a Linux machine available. Why
> > take a chance?
> >  
> 
> Joe:
> 
> 
> a. Whew!
> 
> b. Understood on NTFS drives should be formatted on Windows machines.
> 
> 
> The very last thing that I want to do is to have systematic data 
> corruption on Windowsy drives traced back to Linux-anything.
>

I have no evidence that there is any problem at all, I just try to
avoid the easily-avoidable risks.

-- 
Joe

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#206169

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 11.03.2019 23:13, deb wrote:
>
>
> I saw this question come up
>
> and it set off bells.
>
>
> Someone asked what the status of WRITING to NTFS drives was.
>
> That it was not yet supported (?) .
>
>
>
> *MY* Assumptions:
>
>  * MIXED NETWORK, with Win, Mac, Linux (EXT4 formatted).
>
>  * many portable 1-5TB drives making the rounds, formatted with NTFS.
>
>  * data loss is unacceptable [to the highest degree that is possible].
>
>
>
> I know that I can read (and verify) files just fine from NTFS on
> Debian 9.8
>
> but [if you have direct experience with this]
>
> is writing to these drives from debian actually safe?
>
Short answer: Yes, it is safe.
Long answer: Yes, but it depends, because NTFS is not just a bunch of
files, it has hidden metadata sections, journal, substream files,
junctions, windows-style ACLs and permissions, file compression, disk
quotas, file audit, probably more (hidden) features.
You've probably read my answer to that previous question about NTFS, so
I just want to add to that. Writing data\files to NTFS is fine as long
as you take into account that some of the features could be not fully
supported.
So you should be careful with writing\deleting\moving files on a system
partition (with installed windows os), but if you use NTFS with Portable
USB Storage devices it should be fine, as long as you(your users) don't
unplug USB connector as soon as progress bar of file transfer process
has reached 100%.
>
> [if you have direct experience with this]
>
> what process/tool(s) do you use to validate the writes?
Take into account that USB storage devices are quick to send data into
memory buffer, but much slower to actually write data to drive. So
"sync" command is useful to ensure data is fully written, before you
send command to unmount\eject the device and physically disconnect it
from USB port, otherwise data loss or filesystem corruption will occur.
>
>
> What are other places to ask this?
You can go to homepage of "ntfs-3g" driver [1] and its support forums. [2]

>
> Thank you!
>
>
>
>
[1] https://www.tuxera.com/community/ntfs-3g-advanced/
[2] https://forum.tuxera.com/


-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ 

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#206203 — Alexander -- Re: WRITING to NTFS drives

On 3/11/19 3:47 PM, Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:
> On 11.03.2019 23:13, deb wrote:
>>
>>
>> I saw this question come up
>>
>> and it set off bells.
>>
>>
>> Someone asked what the status of WRITING to NTFS drives was.
>>
>> That it was not yet supported (?) .
>>
>>
>>
>> *MY* Assumptions:
>>
>>  * MIXED NETWORK, with Win, Mac, Linux (EXT4 formatted).
>>
>>  * many portable 1-5TB drives making the rounds, formatted with NTFS.
>>
>>  * data loss is unacceptable [to the highest degree that is possible].
>>
>>
>>
>> I know that I can read (and verify) files just fine from NTFS on 
>> Debian 9.8
>>
>> but [if you have direct experience with this]
>>
>> is writing to these drives from debian actually safe?
>>
> Short answer: Yes, it is safe.
> Long answer: Yes, but it depends, because NTFS is not just a bunch of 
> files, it has hidden metadata sections, journal, substream files, 
> junctions, windows-style ACLs and permissions, file compression, disk 
> quotas, file audit, probably more (hidden) features.
> You've probably read my answer to that previous question about NTFS, 
> so I just want to add to that. Writing data\files to NTFS is fine as 
> long as you take into account that some of the features could be not 
> fully supported.
> So you should be careful with writing\deleting\moving files on a 
> system partition (with installed windows os), but if you use NTFS with 
> Portable USB Storage devices it should be fine, as long as you(your 
> users) don't unplug USB connector as soon as progress bar of file 
> transfer process has reached 100%.
>>
>> [if you have direct experience with this]
>>
>> what process/tool(s) do you use to validate the writes?
> Take into account that USB storage devices are quick to send data into 
> memory buffer, but much slower to actually write data to drive. So 
> "sync" command is useful to ensure data is fully written, before you 
> send command to unmount\eject the device and physically disconnect it 
> from USB port, otherwise data loss or filesystem corruption will occur.
>>
>>
>> What are other places to ask this?
> You can go to homepage of "ntfs-3g" driver [1] and its support forums. [2]
>
>>
>> Thank you!
>>
>>
>>
>>
> [1] https://www.tuxera.com/community/ntfs-3g-advanced/
> [2] https://forum.tuxera.com/
>


Excellent answer Alexander.

(I'm back to scared again).

This will take some onsite research and testing.

My initial thought is to restrict Linux users to using a /linux folder 
on the drives; if not a flat-out separate partition (but that would be 
hard to make happen).


Thank you for the response!

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#206170

On Mon, 2019-03-11 at 14:13 -0400, deb wrote:
> I saw this question come up
> 
> and it set off bells.
> 
> 
> Someone asked what the status of WRITING to NTFS drives was.
> 
> That it was not yet supported (?) .
> 
> 
> 
> *MY* Assumptions:
> 
>   * MIXED NETWORK, with Win, Mac, Linux (EXT4 formatted).
> 
>   * many portable 1-5TB drives making the rounds, formatted with NTFS.
> 
>   * data loss is unacceptable [to the highest degree that is
> possible].
> 
> 
> 
> I know that I can read (and verify) files just fine from NTFS on
> Debian 9.8
> 
> but [if you have direct experience with this]
> 
> is writing to these drives from debian actually safe?
> 
> 
> [if you have direct experience with this]
> 
> what process/tool(s) do you use to validate the writes?
> 
One data point, clearly in need of additional support (or refutation).

I will lay claim to having, in a small number of cases, written to NTFS
file systems using recent (jessie, stretch, buster) Debian versions.

Validation was that the files subsequently were readable, modifiable,
and rewritable by Windows 10 or Windows 7 applications. Some of them
later were readable, modifiable, and rewritable on the originating Linux
system.

This is a somewhat weak claim, since it involved only a small (but
double digit) number of files, and only a few applications (mostly
OpenOffice or LibreOffice Calc and MS-Office Excel).

On one occasion I managed, largely by trial and error, to repair an NTFS
file system using tools available on Debian (buster, I think, but maybe
stretch).

Tom Dial
> 
> What are other places to ask this?
> 
> 
> Thank you!

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#206204 — Tom --- Re: WRITING to NTFS drives

On 3/11/19 3:35 PM, Thomas D Dial wrote:
> On Mon, 2019-03-11 at 14:13 -0400, deb wrote:
>> I saw this question come up
>>
>> and it set off bells.
>>
>>
>> Someone asked what the status of WRITING to NTFS drives was.
>>
>> That it was not yet supported (?) .
>>
>>
>>
>> *MY* Assumptions:
>>
>>    * MIXED NETWORK, with Win, Mac, Linux (EXT4 formatted).
>>
>>    * many portable 1-5TB drives making the rounds, formatted with NTFS.
>>
>>    * data loss is unacceptable [to the highest degree that is
>> possible].
>>
>>
>>
>> I know that I can read (and verify) files just fine from NTFS on
>> Debian 9.8
>>
>> but [if you have direct experience with this]
>>
>> is writing to these drives from debian actually safe?
>>
>>
>> [if you have direct experience with this]
>>
>> what process/tool(s) do you use to validate the writes?
>>
> One data point, clearly in need of additional support (or refutation).
>
> I will lay claim to having, in a small number of cases, written to NTFS
> file systems using recent (jessie, stretch, buster) Debian versions.
>
> Validation was that the files subsequently were readable, modifiable,
> and rewritable by Windows 10 or Windows 7 applications. Some of them
> later were readable, modifiable, and rewritable on the originating Linux
> system.
>
> This is a somewhat weak claim, since it involved only a small (but
> double digit) number of files, and only a few applications (mostly
> OpenOffice or LibreOffice Calc and MS-Office Excel).
>
> On one occasion I managed, largely by trial and error, to repair an NTFS
> file system using tools available on Debian (buster, I think, but maybe
> stretch).
>
> Tom Dial
>

Tom

Thank you!

It's good to hear it has worked, even in small samples.


I'm faced with people running everywhere with these things, and dozens 
of drives.


[potential] shudder.

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#206205

On 3/11/19 11:13 AM, deb wrote:
> 
> 
> I saw this question come up
> 
> and it set off bells.
> 
> 
> Someone asked what the status of WRITING to NTFS drives was.
> 
> That it was not yet supported (?) .
> 
> 
> 
> *MY* Assumptions:
> 
>   * MIXED NETWORK, with Win, Mac, Linux (EXT4 formatted).
> 
>   * many portable 1-5TB drives making the rounds, formatted with NTFS.
> 
>   * data loss is unacceptable [to the highest degree that is possible].
> 
> 
> 
> I know that I can read (and verify) files just fine from NTFS on Debian 9.8
> 
> but [if you have direct experience with this]
> 
> is writing to these drives from debian actually safe?
> 
> 
> [if you have direct experience with this]
> 
> what process/tool(s) do you use to validate the writes?
> 
> 
> What are other places to ask this?
> 
> 
> Thank you!


On 3/12/19 4:40 PM, deb wrote:
> I'm faced with people running everywhere with these things, and dozens 
> of drives.

Writing to NTFS file systems using Debian has worked for me for the 
current and past few releases of Debian Stable.  It is not a common 
use-case for me any more, so I'll refrain from making comments.


However, it seems like you have a large sneaker net with many sneakers 
and even more feet.  My experiences with a few sneakers and two feet 
prompted me to pursue better solutions (Ethernet network, file server, 
version control server, backups, archives, images, etc.).  I am curious 
why you don't do the same?


David

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#206231 — David --- Re: WRITING to NTFS drives

On 3/12/19 9:50 PM, David Christensen wrote:
> On 3/11/19 11:13 AM, deb wrote:
>>
>>
>> I saw this question come up
>>
>> and it set off bells.
>>
>>
>> Someone asked what the status of WRITING to NTFS drives was.
>>
>> That it was not yet supported (?) .
>>
>>
>>
>> *MY* Assumptions:
>>
>>   * MIXED NETWORK, with Win, Mac, Linux (EXT4 formatted).
>>
>>   * many portable 1-5TB drives making the rounds, formatted with NTFS.
>>
>>   * data loss is unacceptable [to the highest degree that is possible].
>>
>>
>>
>> I know that I can read (and verify) files just fine from NTFS on 
>> Debian 9.8
>>
>> but [if you have direct experience with this]
>>
>> is writing to these drives from debian actually safe?
>>
>>
>> [if you have direct experience with this]
>>
>> what process/tool(s) do you use to validate the writes?
>>
>>
>> What are other places to ask this?
>>
>>
>> Thank you!
>
>
> On 3/12/19 4:40 PM, deb wrote:
>> I'm faced with people running everywhere with these things, and 
>> dozens of drives.
>
> Writing to NTFS file systems using Debian has worked for me for the 
> current and past few releases of Debian Stable.  It is not a common 
> use-case for me any more, so I'll refrain from making comments.
>
>
> However, it seems like you have a large sneaker net with many sneakers 
> and even more feet.  My experiences with a few sneakers and two feet 
> prompted me to pursue better solutions (Ethernet network, file server, 
> version control server, backups, archives, images, etc.).  I am 
> curious why you don't do the same?
>
>
> David
>
>

Brace yourself.

They take the drives back and forth *Home*.

(As well as back & forth to clients)..

There is equal volume pumping around the LAN as well.

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#206235 — Re: David --- Re: WRITING to NTFS drives

On Wed, 2019-03-13 at 11:12 -0400, deb wrote:
> On 3/12/19 9:50 PM, David Christensen wrote:
> > On 3/11/19 11:13 AM, deb wrote:
> > > 
> > > I saw this question come up
> > > 
> > > and it set off bells.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Someone asked what the status of WRITING to NTFS drives was.
> > > 
> > > That it was not yet supported (?) .
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > *MY* Assumptions:
> > > 
> > >   * MIXED NETWORK, with Win, Mac, Linux (EXT4 formatted).
> > > 
> > >   * many portable 1-5TB drives making the rounds, formatted with
> > > NTFS.
> > > 
> > >   * data loss is unacceptable [to the highest degree that is
> > > possible].
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I know that I can read (and verify) files just fine from NTFS on 
> > > Debian 9.8
> > > 
> > > but [if you have direct experience with this]
> > > 
> > > is writing to these drives from debian actually safe?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [if you have direct experience with this]
> > > 
> > > what process/tool(s) do you use to validate the writes?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > What are other places to ask this?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Thank you!
> > 
> > On 3/12/19 4:40 PM, deb wrote:
> > > I'm faced with people running everywhere with these things, and 
> > > dozens of drives.
> > 
> > Writing to NTFS file systems using Debian has worked for me for the 
> > current and past few releases of Debian Stable.  It is not a common 
> > use-case for me any more, so I'll refrain from making comments.
> > 
> > 
> > However, it seems like you have a large sneaker net with many
> > sneakers 
> > and even more feet.  My experiences with a few sneakers and two
> > feet 
> > prompted me to pursue better solutions (Ethernet network, file
> > server, 
> > version control server, backups, archives, images, etc.).  I am 
> > curious why you don't do the same?
> > 
> > 
> > David
> > 
> > 
> 
> Brace yourself.
> 
> They take the drives back and forth *Home*.
> 
> (As well as back & forth to clients)..
> 
> There is equal volume pumping around the LAN as well.

It appears you have a problem that is more managerial in nature than
technical, that the best technical measures can do no more than
mitigate.

Scary. My employment was in a US DoD agency that was pretty careful
about information assurance generally, where such activity was forbidden
and punished if found. I do not like to think about having to make it
work.

I contacted a relative who does this routinely. Windows alternately, I
contacted a relative who does this routinely about the initial queston
about writing to NTFS file systems from Linux and Windows alternately.
Although he does this in a dual boot environment, and with either Ubuntu
or Mint, they should be similar enough to Debian and the proposed use to
be meaningful.

He did not report problems with NTFS as such, but mentioned possible
OneDrive sync issues and inability of Linux to write to a Windows drive
if it was closed down in a locked state. I knew nothing of such a
"locked state" and Google search for it indicated only issues that
suggest prior file system corruption that needed chkdsk or SFC (and
possibly bootrec, or even Windows refresh or reinstall), so probably not
a meaningful barrier.

Prior testing would be appropriate, with verification of the 90% or more
most common use cases, maybe with help of a relatively knowledgable user
or a few of them.

Tom Dial

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#206237 — (Thank you Tom) Re: David --- Re: WRITING to NTFS drives

On 3/13/19 3:43 PM, Thomas D Dial wrote:
> On Wed, 2019-03-13 at 11:12 -0400, deb wrote:
>> On 3/12/19 9:50 PM, David Christensen wrote:
>>> On 3/11/19 11:13 AM, deb wrote:
>>>> I saw this question come up
>>>>
>>>> and it set off bells.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Someone asked what the status of WRITING to NTFS drives was.
>>>>
>>>> That it was not yet supported (?) .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *MY* Assumptions:
>>>>
>>>>    * MIXED NETWORK, with Win, Mac, Linux (EXT4 formatted).
>>>>
>>>>    * many portable 1-5TB drives making the rounds, formatted with
>>>> NTFS.
>>>>
>>>>    * data loss is unacceptable [to the highest degree that is
>>>> possible].
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know that I can read (and verify) files just fine from NTFS on
>>>> Debian 9.8
>>>>
>>>> but [if you have direct experience with this]
>>>>
>>>> is writing to these drives from debian actually safe?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [if you have direct experience with this]
>>>>
>>>> what process/tool(s) do you use to validate the writes?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What are other places to ask this?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you!
>>> On 3/12/19 4:40 PM, deb wrote:
>>>> I'm faced with people running everywhere with these things, and
>>>> dozens of drives.
>>> Writing to NTFS file systems using Debian has worked for me for the
>>> current and past few releases of Debian Stable.  It is not a common
>>> use-case for me any more, so I'll refrain from making comments.
>>>
>>>
>>> However, it seems like you have a large sneaker net with many
>>> sneakers
>>> and even more feet.  My experiences with a few sneakers and two
>>> feet
>>> prompted me to pursue better solutions (Ethernet network, file
>>> server,
>>> version control server, backups, archives, images, etc.).  I am
>>> curious why you don't do the same?
>>>
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>> Brace yourself.
>>
>> They take the drives back and forth *Home*.
>>
>> (As well as back & forth to clients)..
>>
>> There is equal volume pumping around the LAN as well.
> It appears you have a problem that is more managerial in nature than
> technical, that the best technical measures can do no more than
> mitigate.
>
> Scary. My employment was in a US DoD agency that was pretty careful
> about information assurance generally, where such activity was forbidden
> and punished if found. I do not like to think about having to make it
> work.
>
> I contacted a relative who does this routinely. Windows alternately, I
> contacted a relative who does this routinely about the initial queston
> about writing to NTFS file systems from Linux and Windows alternately.
> Although he does this in a dual boot environment, and with either Ubuntu
> or Mint, they should be similar enough to Debian and the proposed use to
> be meaningful.
>
> He did not report problems with NTFS as such, but mentioned possible
> OneDrive sync issues and inability of Linux to write to a Windows drive
> if it was closed down in a locked state. I knew nothing of such a
> "locked state" and Google search for it indicated only issues that
> suggest prior file system corruption that needed chkdsk or SFC (and
> possibly bootrec, or even Windows refresh or reinstall), so probably not
> a meaningful barrier.
>
> Prior testing would be appropriate, with verification of the 90% or more
> most common use cases, maybe with help of a relatively knowledgable user
> or a few of them.
>
> Tom Dial
>

Thank You!


>

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#206242 — Re: (Thank you Tom) Re: David --- Re: WRITING to NTFS drives

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

> On 3/13/19 3:43 PM, Thomas D Dial wrote:

[...]

>> I contacted a relative who does this routinely. Windows alternately, I
>> contacted a relative who does this routinely about the initial queston
>> about writing to NTFS file systems from Linux and Windows alternately.
>> Although he does this in a dual boot environment, and with either Ubuntu
>> or Mint, they should be similar enough to Debian and the proposed use to
>> be meaningful.
>>
>> He did not report problems with NTFS as such, but mentioned possible
>> OneDrive sync issues and inability of Linux to write to a Windows drive
>> if it was closed down in a locked state. I knew nothing of such a
>> "locked state" and Google search for it indicated only issues that
>> suggest prior file system corruption that needed chkdsk or SFC (and
>> possibly bootrec, or even Windows refresh or reinstall), so probably not
>> a meaningful barrier.
>>
>> Prior testing would be appropriate, with verification of the 90% or more
>> most common use cases, maybe with help of a relatively knowledgable user
>> or a few of them.

[...]

The locked state might be from a feature introduced in Windows 8: Windows
does not shut down by default but rather goes into suspend-to-disk. If the
data is accessed from another OS while Windows is suspended, Windows' and
the other OS' view on the data may be inconsistent and cause file system
corruption.

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-performance-
winpc/win10-fast-start-up-quick-boot-warning-suggestion/5fec376c-
d876-4033-85f6-32c2d2cb5e03

So for external drives there should not be an issue as long as they are
unmounted/disconnected properly prior to a Windows shutdown or alternatively
one can disable "Fast Startup" completely to avoid its risks.

HTH
Linux-Fan

OT: Last time I e-mailed the list, my mail's signature could not be verified
successfuly in (at least not in my e-mail client)... I am not sure how to
debug this so it might again be signed incorrectly? :(

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#206248 — Re: (Thank you Tom) Re: David --- Re: WRITING to NTFS drives

On Wed, 2019-03-13 at 21:57 +0100, Linux-Fan wrote:
> > On 3/13/19 3:43 PM, Thomas D Dial wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > I contacted a relative who does this routinely. Windows
> > > alternately, I
> > > contacted a relative who does this routinely about the initial
> > > queston
> > > about writing to NTFS file systems from Linux and Windows
> > > alternately.
> > > Although he does this in a dual boot environment, and with either
> > > Ubuntu
> > > or Mint, they should be similar enough to Debian and the proposed
> > > use to
> > > be meaningful.
> > > 
> > > He did not report problems with NTFS as such, but mentioned
> > > possible
> > > OneDrive sync issues and inability of Linux to write to a Windows
> > > drive
> > > if it was closed down in a locked state. I knew nothing of such a
> > > "locked state" and Google search for it indicated only issues that
> > > suggest prior file system corruption that needed chkdsk or SFC
> > > (and
> > > possibly bootrec, or even Windows refresh or reinstall), so
> > > probably not
> > > a meaningful barrier.
> > > 
> > > Prior testing would be appropriate, with verification of the 90%
> > > or more
> > > most common use cases, maybe with help of a relatively
> > > knowledgable user
> > > or a few of them.
> 
> [...]
> 
> The locked state might be from a feature introduced in Windows 8:
> Windows
> does not shut down by default but rather goes into suspend-to-disk. If
> the
> data is accessed from another OS while Windows is suspended, Windows'
> and
> the other OS' view on the data may be inconsistent and cause file
> system
> corruption.
> 
> https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-performance-
> winpc/win10-fast-start-up-quick-boot-warning-suggestion/5fec376c-
> d876-4033-85f6-32c2d2cb5e03
> 
> So for external drives there should not be an issue as long as they
> are
> unmounted/disconnected properly prior to a Windows shutdown or
> alternatively
> one can disable "Fast Startup" completely to avoid its risks.
> 
Thank you for the explanation, and reference, which makes sense and
persuades me to make sure fast startup/quick boot is disabled on the
small number of Windows things on my network. The floundering fix I
mentioned in an earlier post may well have been made necessary by this
"feature." Most of the systems here are on all the time, and I rarely am
in such a hurry that a minute or so to boot from cold would be a
problem.

Tom

> HTH
> Linux-Fan
> 
> OT: Last time I e-mailed the list, my mail's signature could not be
> verified
> successfuly in (at least not in my e-mail client)... I am not sure how
> to
> debug this so it might again be signed incorrectly? :(

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#209285

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Lu, 11 mar 19, 14:13:38, deb wrote:
> 
> Someone asked what the status of WRITING to NTFS drives was.
> 
> That it was not yet supported (?) .

In addition to what was already said in the thread, I've been using the 
excuse that some data might need to be accessible from Windows to use 
NTFS also to share data between users on the same (Debian) system, 
because I can easily enforce uniform permissions via mount options (uid, 
gid, fmask, dmask).

Achieving the same result with native filesystems (extX, btrfs, etc.) 
is... challenging :)

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

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#209360

On 2019-03-11 18:13, deb wrote:

> Someone asked what the status of WRITING to NTFS drives was.

I move files windows -> Debian with WinScp.
You can move files Debian -> Debian with mc and a ssh connection in the 
other window.
Interested to see that there is a ssh server available on windows so it 
should be possible Debian -> Windows with mc.

mick


-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#209361

mick crane wrote:

> I move files windows -> Debian with WinScp.
> You can move files Debian -> Debian with mc and a ssh connection in the
> other window.
> Interested to see that there is a ssh server available on windows so it
> should be possible Debian -> Windows with mc.

I've been writing directly to ntfs with ntfs-3g for many years now. Not on
daily bases, but doing backup and restore couple of times on different
notebooks, PCs etc.

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#209364

On 2019-05-29 07:28, deloptes wrote:
> mick crane wrote:
> 
>> I move files windows -> Debian with WinScp.
>> You can move files Debian -> Debian with mc and a ssh connection in 
>> the
>> other window.
>> Interested to see that there is a ssh server available on windows so 
>> it
>> should be possible Debian -> Windows with mc.
> 
> I've been writing directly to ntfs with ntfs-3g for many years now. Not 
> on
> daily bases, but doing backup and restore couple of times on different
> notebooks, PCs etc.

Thing is you don't know what windows is going to do next.
Was an update a few days ago that I assume was why PC just started 
crashing ( which hasn't happened for years ) and couldn't decide if it 
wanted to boot or not.
Then an hour later there was another update and all started playing 
nicely again.

mick
-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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#209367

mick crane wrote:

> Thing is you don't know what windows is going to do next.
> Was an update a few days ago that I assume was why PC just started
> crashing ( which hasn't happened for years ) and couldn't decide if it
> wanted to boot or not.
> Then an hour later there was another update and all started playing
> nicely again.

But this has nothing to do with the original question. We even do not know
what linux or debian developers will do next ;-)

The point is that OP should know that ntfs-3g works well under linux. I
guess there should be additional thought which user does the writes, but it
does not change the fact that it works fine.

regards

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#209381

On 2019-05-29 11:18, deloptes wrote:
> mick crane wrote:
> 
>> Thing is you don't know what windows is going to do next.
>> Was an update a few days ago that I assume was why PC just started
>> crashing ( which hasn't happened for years ) and couldn't decide if it
>> wanted to boot or not.
>> Then an hour later there was another update and all started playing
>> nicely again.
> 
> But this has nothing to do with the original question. We even do not 
> know
> what linux or debian developers will do next ;-)
> 
> The point is that OP should know that ntfs-3g works well under linux. I
> guess there should be additional thought which user does the writes, 
> but it
> does not change the fact that it works fine.
> 
> regards

You understand I just make the point.
In the past it was considered dangerous to write to NTFS
That seems to work now but you don't know what might change
If this open-ssh implementation is on windows then it is part of their 
thing so should be likely to not wreck anything.

mick

-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

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