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What time is it, really?

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  What time is it, really? Fred <fred@blakemfg.com> - 2018-08-09 16:40 +0200
    Re: What time is it, really? Martin <keine-eile@online.de> - 2018-08-09 16:40 +0200
    Re: What time is it, really? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-08-09 16:40 +0200
      Re: What time is it, really? Jim Popovitch <jim@k4vqc.com> - 2018-08-09 17:00 +0200
        Re: What time is it, really? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-08-09 17:10 +0200
          Re: What time is it, really? Jim Popovitch <jim@k4vqc.com> - 2018-08-09 17:10 +0200
          Re: What time is it, really? john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> - 2018-08-09 20:40 +0200
            Re: What time is it, really? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-08-09 21:50 +0200
              Re: What time is it, really? Fred <fred@blakemfg.com> - 2018-08-09 23:40 +0200
                Re: What time is it, really? Shea Alterio <krusete@gmail.com> - 2018-08-10 00:00 +0200
                Re: What time is it, really? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-08-10 17:20 +0200
                  Re: What time is it, really? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-10 17:40 +0200
                    Re: What time is it, really? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-08-10 21:50 +0200
                  Re: What time is it, really? Fred <fred@blakemfg.com> - 2018-08-10 18:40 +0200
                    Re: What time is it, really? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-08-10 19:50 +0200
                    Re: What time is it, really? Fekete Tamás <fektom@gmail.com> - 2018-08-10 19:50 +0200
                      Re: What time is it, really? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-08-10 20:10 +0200
                      Re: What time is it, really? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-10 20:20 +0200
                      Re: What time is it, really? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-10 23:00 +0200
                        Re: What time is it, really? Fekete Tamás <fektom@gmail.com> - 2018-08-11 11:10 +0200
                    Re: What time is it, really? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-08-10 22:40 +0200
      Re: What time is it, really? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-09 17:10 +0200
      Re: What time is it, really? Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2018-08-09 17:20 +0200
        Re: What time is it, really? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-08-09 18:00 +0200
          Re: What time is it, really? Andre Majorel <aym-naibed@teaser.fr> - 2018-08-09 19:10 +0200
          Re: What time is it, really? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2018-08-09 19:20 +0200
          Re: What time is it, really? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-09 20:00 +0200
      Re: What time is it, really? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2018-08-10 01:30 +0200
    Re: What time is it, really? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2018-08-09 16:50 +0200
      OT: What time is it, really? Martin <keine-eile@online.de> - 2018-08-09 17:10 +0200
        Re: OT: What time is it, really? Martin <keine-eile@online.de> - 2018-08-09 17:20 +0200
          Re: OT: What time is it, really? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2018-08-09 17:50 +0200
            Re: OT: What time is it, really? Martin <keine-eile@online.de> - 2018-08-09 18:10 +0200
          Re: OT: What time is it, really? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-09 18:20 +0200
            Re: OT: What time is it, really? Martin <keine-eile@online.de> - 2018-08-09 18:30 +0200
              Re: OT: What time is it, really? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-09 19:40 +0200
                Re: OT: What time is it, really? Anders Andersson <pipatron@gmail.com> - 2018-08-10 12:00 +0200
                  Re: OT: What time is it, really? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-10 13:50 +0200
        Re: OT: What time is it, really? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2018-08-09 17:20 +0200
      Re: What time is it, really? Fred <fred@blakemfg.com> - 2018-08-09 18:50 +0200
        Re: What time is it, really? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2018-08-09 19:00 +0200
        Re: What time is it, really? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-08-09 19:00 +0200
        Re: What time is it, really? Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2018-08-09 20:00 +0200
    Re: What time is it, really? Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-08-09 16:50 +0200

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#198596

On Fri 10 Aug 2018 at 09:20:42 (-0700), Fred wrote:
> On 08/10/2018 08:18 AM, David Wright wrote:
> >On Thu 09 Aug 2018 at 14:26:30 (-0700), Fred wrote:
> >>Several years ago I built a "network clock" that receives WWVB time
> >>signals, has a clock display and an Ethernet interface so computers
> >>on the local network can ask for the time.  The hardware works and
> >>the software is able to decode the WWVB time code.  I am interested
> >>in finishing it now.  The computers on the network can use a Perl
> >>program to get the time.
> >Interesting. I played around with a Wireless World design in the
> >early 70's (TTL) where the "Rugby" time code (the slow one) was
> >decoded in hardware.

Correction: it was the fast code I was using. I was confused by the
fact that we also used a BCD-encoded slow code on some of our clocks
around the same time; the latter was necessarily slow because there
were mechanical relays that had to be able to follow it.

> I haven't tried chrony as I have renewed interest in completing the
> "network clock" project I started some time ago.  There are far more
> interesting "home projects" than you can shake a stick at.  I ran
> ntpdate once as root and it did correct the time.
> 
> WWVB supposedly covers the continental US. but I am sure there are
> areas that don't get useful signal strength.  The software for my
> clock is to the point of changing the signal time intervals into
> bits so the next step is doing something with the bits.

Best of luck with this, and far better done in software. I turned up
a reference to the one I played with:
http://www.keith-snook.info/wireless-world-magazine/Wireless-World-1976/Self-setting%20time%20code%20clock.pdf
and its lifetime would have lasted until 1998 when they turned off
the fast code at MSF. But 1976 was about the time that microprocessors
were becoming affordable for this kind of work.

AFAIK signal strength is not an issue for us as there's not a lot
between here and CO. The only radio clock I've known to have an issue
was one that wouldn't synchronise in a UK church vestry. I swapped it
for an ancient electric wall clock, and the radio one worked perfectly
in our basement.

Cheers,
David.

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#198494

On Thursday 09 August 2018 10:35:23 Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 07:19:46AM -0700, Fred wrote:
> > So I installed ntpdate as suggested but it is
> > not active yet.
>
> Whoever suggested that is using outdated information.  Install ntp and
> not ntpdate.
>
+1

> The current versions of the ntp package (since, like, Debian 6.x I
> think) incorporate the one-time clock slamming feature of ntpdate, so
> you don't need ntpdate at all.
>
> > If I ask google what time it is in Mesa AZ. the response agrees
> > closely with an "atomic" clock I have.  The computer clock is about
> > 10 min. fast.
>
> Once you've had ntp installed for several minutes (and possibly
> rebooted, if your clock was particularly bad), you can query it with
> "ntpq -p" to see how it's doing.
>
> Unfortunately, the output format of ntpq -p isn't DOCUMENTED anywhere,
> so it's a bit cryptic.  The most important thing to know, which is not
> stated anywhere except word of mouth like this email, is that the
> "offset" column is reporting milliseconds, not seconds.

Something else I had forgotten is the loading on the level 2 servers. But 
was reminded just now. I have ntp running on my router, and this machine 
is running on the routers time broadcasts which you can enable in 
dd-wrt, and most of the rest of my machines are set and controlled by 
the this machines rebroadcast, see the man pages about how to do that. 
So I supposedly have only one actual query going out to the network time 
servers despite there being 7 to 8 machines on my local network, so that 
6 or 7 machines that are not banging on the level 2 servers.

Thats simply being a good net citizen.
-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#198497

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On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 10:35:23AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 07:19:46AM -0700, Fred wrote:
>> So I installed ntpdate as suggested but it is
>> not active yet.
>
>Whoever suggested that is using outdated information.  Install ntp and
>not ntpdate.
>
>The current versions of the ntp package (since, like, Debian 6.x I think)
>incorporate the one-time clock slamming feature of ntpdate, so you don't
>need ntpdate at all.
>
>> If I ask google what time it is in Mesa AZ. the response agrees closely with
>> an "atomic" clock I have.  The computer clock is about 10 min. fast.
>
>Once you've had ntp installed for several minutes (and possibly rebooted,
>if your clock was particularly bad), you can query it with "ntpq -p" to
>see how it's doing.
>
>Unfortunately, the output format of ntpq -p isn't DOCUMENTED anywhere, so
>it's a bit cryptic.  The most important thing to know, which is not stated
>anywhere except word of mouth like this email, is that the "offset" column
>is reporting milliseconds, not seconds.
>

Actually, quoting http://doc.ntp.org/current-stable/debug.html: "Note 
that, except for explicit calendar dates, times are in milliseconds and 
frequencies are in parts-per-million (PPM).

Additionally, from http://doc.ntp.org/current-stable/ntpq.html#rv (rv 
allows one to read the offset for a particular association directly), 
"Note that time values are represented in milliseconds and frequency 
values in parts-per-million (PPM)."

-- 
For more information, please reread.

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#198500

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 04:15:36PM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:
> Additionally, from http://doc.ntp.org/current-stable/ntpq.html#rv (rv allows
> one to read the offset for a particular association directly), "Note that
> time values are represented in milliseconds and frequency values in
> parts-per-million (PPM)."

Where do I even start....

OK, let's start with "man ntpq".  The -p option says, "Print  a list of
the peers known to the server as well as a summary of their state.  This is
equivalent to the peers interactive command."

Not very useful.  OK, the man page also says, "SEE ALSO
/usr/share/doc/ntp-doc/html/ntpq.html for the full documentation."

Of course, that file does not exist.

One might try to jump through hoops to try to find out how to obtain
this file, etc.  I'll just assume for the moment that the end result
of those hoops would lead me to a page that's basically the same as
your URL shown above, so I'll skip those hoops.

Now, let's look at the URL you provided.

The #rv anchor points to a section for the "rv" command, which it seems
is an alias for the "readvar" command.  There's no indication that this
is relevant to me in any way.

Right above that, is the peers command.  The man page says that -p is
equivalent to peers, so we have an indication that the peers section of
this page might be relevant!  OK!  So, we read the "peers" section, and
it says, "offset of server relative to this host".

That's it.  No units are mentioned in the output or in the documentation.

If we jump to the end of the page, there's just some tables and stuff.
Nothing comprehensible.  If we jump to the start, and skip the
paragraphs of incomprehensible jargon, there's a sentence that says,
"For examples and usage, see the NTP Debugging Techniques page."

OK, so let's follow that link.

Under "Verifying Correct Operation", it says "The ntpq commands pe, as
and rv are normally sufficient to verify correct operation ...".
What's pe?  Is that short for "peers"?  Let's assume it's short for
"peers", and that whoever wrote this document wasn't writing it for
ordinary humans.

"The pe command displays a list showing the DNS name or IP address for
each association along with selected status and statistics variables."

Then it goes on to talk about the "as" and "rv" commands, which includes
some wording about times being in milliseconds, but why would I read that
paragraph at all?  It's talking about these other two commands that I'm
not using.

...

So, since all of this documentation is not very user-friendly, I
rely on word of mouth to tell people, "Hey, see this offset field?
It's milliseconds, not seconds."

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#198508

On 2018-08-09 11:54 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 04:15:36PM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:
> > Additionally, from
> > http://doc.ntp.org/current-stable/ntpq.html#rv (rv allows
> > one to read the offset for a particular association
> > directly), "Note that time values are represented in
> > milliseconds and frequency values in parts-per-million
> > (PPM)."
> 
> [...] So, since all of this documentation is not very
> user-friendly, I rely on word of mouth to tell people, "Hey,
> see this offset field? It's milliseconds, not seconds."

At times, it's hard to make sense of the collective behaviour of
people.

90% of the population seem to think that any software that
requires reading one line of documentation is worthless.

Then there's those who defend poorly documented software,
insisting that "it's all in there", provided you spend a few
hours or days memorising every text file in the package,
including the source. After which, anyone who's not a moron
would know the answer to their question simply by putting
together one sentence from the man page with the twelfth item in
the FAQ and the entry for version 1.6.9 in the what's-new file.

Is there no middle ground at all ? Are we condemned to choose
between two forms of insanity ?

Sorry, pet peeve. Nothing personal.

-- 
André Majorel <http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/>
I trust bugs.debian.org to not publish my email address for
spammers to harvest.

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#198509

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Greg Wooledge (2018-08-09):
> Not very useful.  OK, the man page also says, "SEE ALSO
> /usr/share/doc/ntp-doc/html/ntpq.html for the full documentation."
                 ^^^^^^^
> 
> Of course, that file does not exist.
> 
> One might try to jump through hoops to try to find out how to obtain
> this file, etc.

You mean, like installing the ntp-doc package, maybe ?

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#198515

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 11:54:54AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 04:15:36PM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:
>> Additionally, from http://doc.ntp.org/current-stable/ntpq.html#rv (rv allows
>> one to read the offset for a particular association directly), "Note that
>> time values are represented in milliseconds and frequency values in
>> parts-per-million (PPM)."
>
>Where do I even start....

It sounds like you should start with a user/client/desktop oriented time 
program. There's no reason for most users to be running ntpd in 2018. If 
you're running a server syncing to a PPS source or somesuch then you 
need ntpd. But at that point you're going to have to learn a lot of 
domain-specific jargon to do that thing, at which point the ntpd 
documentation is fine. If you want something that's fire and forget, 
then install openntpd or systemd-timesyncd and call it a day.

Mike Stone

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#198533

Greg Wooledge wrote:

> Whoever suggested that is using outdated information.  Install ntp and
> not ntpdate.

I did not suggested this but I also use ntpdate. Especially on laptop that
is not connected to the network all the time it does not make sense, as you
get those nasty mails that ntp server is not reachable.
I added simple cron job many moons ago to let ntpdate run twice a day - why
should I have a daemon running?

anyway, both is valid and one can choose what better suits. The memory
footprint of ntp is indeed really small.

regards

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#198488

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Fred (2018-08-09):
> Someone complained off list about the timestamp in my emails being off.
> Being a hardware person I think hardware should work properly and clocks
> should keep accurate time.  So I installed ntpdate as suggested but it is
> not active yet.

Nowadays, unless you have religions objections, you should just enable
systemd-timesyncd, it is the most lightweight and transparent way of
enabling network time synchronization with nowadays Debian.

ntpdate is not really good because it only does punctual queries; ntpd
and timesyncd will keep stats and adjust more accurately.

> If I ask google what time it is in Mesa AZ. the response agrees closely with
> an "atomic" clock I have.  The computer clock is about 10 min. fast.
> 
> fred@ragnok:~$ /usr/sbin/ntpdate -q time.nist.gov
> server 2610:20:6f96:96::4, stratum 1, offset -610.512368, delay 0.09421
> server 132.163.96.4, stratum 1, offset -610.509394, delay 0.08899
>  9 Aug 06:51:15 ntpdate[13672]: step time server 132.163.96.4
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> offset -610.509394 sec
> 
> fred@ragnok:~$ date
> Thu Aug  9 06:51:18 MST 2018
> 
> The time server is quite close to the computer clock.

If you are looking at the time I underlined above, I am pretty sure
(looking at the source) that it is the local time, not the time returned
by the server.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#198491 — OT: What time is it, really?

> Nowadays, unless you have religions objections, you should just enable
> systemd-timesyncd, it is the most lightweight and transparent way of
> enabling network time synchronization with nowadays Debian.

First of: The documentation sucks!
Do you know if this software can be tricked in a way, that it does serve ntp in my local network? I ran into that some weeks ago an it did not want to. So I'm back on ntpd.

Martin 

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#198495 — Re: OT: What time is it, really?

Am 09.08.2018 um 17:12 schrieb Nicolas George:
> Martin (2018-08-09):
>> First of: The documentation sucks!
> 
> Care to elaborate?
> 
>> Do you know if this software can be tricked in a way,
> 
> I suggest you try to use software instead of tricking it. It works
> better that way.

Granted.

>> that it does serve ntp in my local network?
> 
> Do you have any evidence that it does?

I would like to.
As I tried, it did not.

> Regards,
> 

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#198499 — Re: OT: What time is it, really?

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Martin (2018-08-09):
> >> that it does serve ntp in my local network?
                 ^

I thought I saw a "not" here, hence the strange wording of my answer.
Sorry.

> I would like to.
> As I tried, it did not.

timesyncd is not meant for that. It is a client, not a server. You were
right to use a complete implementation of NTP.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#198501 — Re: OT: What time is it, really?

> I thought I saw a "not" here, hence the strange wording of my answer.

Cheers ;-)

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#198502 — Re: OT: What time is it, really?

On Thursday 09 August 2018 11:16:27 Martin wrote:

> Am 09.08.2018 um 17:12 schrieb Nicolas George:
> > Martin (2018-08-09):
> >> First of: The documentation sucks!
> >
> > Care to elaborate?
> >
> >> Do you know if this software can be tricked in a way,
> >
> > I suggest you try to use software instead of tricking it. It works
> > better that way.
>
> Granted.
>
> >> that it does serve ntp in my local network?
> >
> > Do you have any evidence that it does?
>
> I would like to.
> As I tried, it did not.
>
Then I suggest you reread man ntp.conf, and /etc/ntp.conf, and edit it  
as root until you do understand it. Note that changes to take effect, 
need a root session of "service ntp restart".

As I said before, my router can be a level 16 source, either by acting as 
a server, or as a broadcast source. This machine slaves to the router, 
both as a server for init purposes, and as a running listener to the 
routers broadcasts.

So the ntpq -p output here is:
gene@coyote:~$ ntpq -p
     remote       refid    st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==============================================================================
 router.coyote.d .INIT.    16 u    -   64    0    0.000    0.000   0.000
 192.168.71.255  .BCST.    16 u    -   64    0    0.000    0.000   0.000

All the other machines here then use this machine as the server in plae 
of any 'pool' listings (#commented out) and their ntpq -p output is:
gene@rock64:~$ ntpq -p
     remote      refid     st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==============================================================================
*coyote.coyote.d 216.6.2.70 3 u   93   64  176    0.657   -1.093   0.695

That rock64 is an arm64 machine that does not have a clock, fake_hw, but 
the /etc/ntp.conf is identical to the other 6 machines.  And I am 
banging on the level 2 servers at my isp or even further away, only once 
for all the machines here.

Here its from a raspberry pi 3b:
pi@picnc:~ $ ntpq -p
     remote      refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==============================================================================
*coyote.coyote.d 216.6.2.70  3 u  121  128  377    0.225    0.374   0.085

I could go on, but its boring. Comment the pool entries in /etc/ntp.conf,  
put your server in their place, and uncomment the last 2 lines to enable 
the secondary machines to listen to the broadcasts on your subnet of 
xx.yy.zz.255

That way they listen to .255 to stay current, and use the server entry 
when they boot. Piece of cake.

> > Regards,



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#198503 — Re: OT: What time is it, really?

Am 09.08.2018 um 18:15 schrieb Gene Heskett:
> On Thursday 09 August 2018 11:16:27 Martin wrote:
> 
>> Am 09.08.2018 um 17:12 schrieb Nicolas George:
>>> Martin (2018-08-09):
>>>> First of: The documentation sucks!
>>>
>>> Care to elaborate?
>>>
>>>> Do you know if this software can be tricked in a way,
>>>
>>> I suggest you try to use software instead of tricking it. It works
>>> better that way.
>>
>> Granted.
>>
>>>> that it does serve ntp in my local network?
>>>
>>> Do you have any evidence that it does?
>>
>> I would like to.
>> As I tried, it did not.
>>
> Then I suggest you reread man ntp.conf, and /etc/ntp.conf, and edit it  
> as root until you do understand it. Note that changes to take effect, 
> need a root session of "service ntp restart".
[...]

Wrong topic, may be?
I used to use ntpd. Then tried systemd-timesyncd to act a a server. Which it will not do. Hence, I run ntpd.

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#198511 — Re: OT: What time is it, really?

On Thursday 09 August 2018 12:26:24 Martin wrote:

> Am 09.08.2018 um 18:15 schrieb Gene Heskett:
> > On Thursday 09 August 2018 11:16:27 Martin wrote:
> >> Am 09.08.2018 um 17:12 schrieb Nicolas George:
> >>> Martin (2018-08-09):
> >>>> First of: The documentation sucks!
> >>>
> >>> Care to elaborate?
> >>>
> >>>> Do you know if this software can be tricked in a way,
> >>>
> >>> I suggest you try to use software instead of tricking it. It works
> >>> better that way.
> >>
> >> Granted.
> >>
> >>>> that it does serve ntp in my local network?
> >>>
> >>> Do you have any evidence that it does?
> >>
> >> I would like to.
> >> As I tried, it did not.
> >
> > Then I suggest you reread man ntp.conf, and /etc/ntp.conf, and edit
> > it as root until you do understand it. Note that changes to take
> > effect, need a root session of "service ntp restart".
>
> [...]
>
> Wrong topic, may be?
> I used to use ntpd. Then tried systemd-timesyncd to act a a server.
> Which it will not do. Hence, I run ntpd.

Wrong topic? Note that nowhere in that portion of my msg you snipped, was 
systemd.timesyncd mentioned. It may have been in some other part of that 
message that I didn't author, and which you also snipped.
You might want to let some of the stuffing out of that shirt. I was 
trying to be helpfull because the docs do suck a bit.  And helpfull 
people are harder and harder to find because of folks with an attitude 
that you seem to want to be.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#198542 — Re: OT: What time is it, really?

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 7:35 PM, Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> wrote:
> On Thursday 09 August 2018 12:26:24 Martin wrote:
>> Am 09.08.2018 um 18:15 schrieb Gene Heskett:
>> > On Thursday 09 August 2018 11:16:27 Martin wrote:
>> >> Am 09.08.2018 um 17:12 schrieb Nicolas George:
>> >
>> > Then I suggest you reread man ntp.conf, and /etc/ntp.conf, and edit
>> > it as root until you do understand it. Note that changes to take
>> > effect, need a root session of "service ntp restart".
>>
>> Wrong topic, may be?
>> I used to use ntpd. Then tried systemd-timesyncd to act a a server.
>> Which it will not do. Hence, I run ntpd.
>
> Wrong topic? Note that nowhere in that portion of my msg you snipped, was
> systemd.timesyncd mentioned. It may have been in some other part of that
> message that I didn't author, and which you also snipped.
> You might want to let some of the stuffing out of that shirt. I was
> trying to be helpfull because the docs do suck a bit.  And helpfull
> people are harder and harder to find because of folks with an attitude

You're the one with the attitude here. Martin claimed that the
documentation for systemd-timesyncd sucked, and that it can not serve
time to a local network. You then go on to lecture him about reading
the documentation for NTP, "until you understand it", something he
obviously already does since he is already using it. After he
clarified the context, Instead of apologizing you reply with an attack
about his stuffed shirt.

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#198554 — Re: OT: What time is it, really?

On Friday 10 August 2018 05:54:22 Anders Andersson wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 7:35 PM, Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> 
wrote:
> > On Thursday 09 August 2018 12:26:24 Martin wrote:
> >> Am 09.08.2018 um 18:15 schrieb Gene Heskett:
> >> > On Thursday 09 August 2018 11:16:27 Martin wrote:
> >> >> Am 09.08.2018 um 17:12 schrieb Nicolas George:
> >> >
> >> > Then I suggest you reread man ntp.conf, and /etc/ntp.conf, and
> >> > edit it as root until you do understand it. Note that changes to
> >> > take effect, need a root session of "service ntp restart".
> >>
> >> Wrong topic, may be?
> >> I used to use ntpd. Then tried systemd-timesyncd to act a a server.
> >> Which it will not do. Hence, I run ntpd.
> >
> > Wrong topic? Note that nowhere in that portion of my msg you
> > snipped, was systemd.timesyncd mentioned. It may have been in some
> > other part of that message that I didn't author, and which you also
> > snipped.
> > You might want to let some of the stuffing out of that shirt. I was
> > trying to be helpfull because the docs do suck a bit.  And helpfull
> > people are harder and harder to find because of folks with an
> > attitude
>
> You're the one with the attitude here. Martin claimed that the
> documentation for systemd-timesyncd sucked, and that it can not serve
> time to a local network. You then go on to lecture him about reading
> the documentation for NTP, "until you understand it", something he
> obviously already does since he is already using it. After he
> clarified the context, Instead of apologizing you reply with an attack
> about his stuffed shirt.

Maybe stuffed shirt was over-reaction, but from what was written, I got 
the impression that Martin did not understand ntp all that well. If he 
does in fact understand its theory, then my apologies.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#198496 — Re: OT: What time is it, really?

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Martin (2018-08-09):
> First of: The documentation sucks!

Care to elaborate?

> Do you know if this software can be tricked in a way,

I suggest you try to use software instead of tricking it. It works
better that way.

> that it does serve ntp in my local network?

Do you have any evidence that it does?

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

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#198504

On 08/09/2018 07:42 AM, Nicolas George wrote:
> Fred (2018-08-09):
>> Someone complained off list about the timestamp in my emails being off.
>> Being a hardware person I think hardware should work properly and clocks
>> should keep accurate time.  So I installed ntpdate as suggested but it is
>> not active yet.
> Nowadays, unless you have religions objections, you should just enable
> systemd-timesyncd, it is the most lightweight and transparent way of
> enabling network time synchronization with nowadays Debian.
>
> ntpdate is not really good because it only does punctual queries; ntpd
> and timesyncd will keep stats and adjust more accurately.
>
>> If I ask google what time it is in Mesa AZ. the response agrees closely with
>> an "atomic" clock I have.  The computer clock is about 10 min. fast.
>>
>> fred@ragnok:~$ /usr/sbin/ntpdate -q time.nist.gov
>> server 2610:20:6f96:96::4, stratum 1, offset -610.512368, delay 0.09421
>> server 132.163.96.4, stratum 1, offset -610.509394, delay 0.08899
>>   9 Aug 06:51:15 ntpdate[13672]: step time server 132.163.96.4
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> offset -610.509394 sec
>>
>> fred@ragnok:~$ date
>> Thu Aug  9 06:51:18 MST 2018
>>
>> The time server is quite close to the computer clock.
> If you are looking at the time I underlined above, I am pretty sure
> (looking at the source) that it is the local time, not the time returned
> by the server.
>
> Regards,
>
Hi,
I think you may be right.  It seems a stupid response from ntpdate since 
I asked the time from the server.  So, ntpdate maybe isn't what I should 
be using.

There was a discussion about time services on this list some time ago 
and at that time I decided chrony should be used so I will try it next.  
I don't want a service that keeps banging on the server.  Once a day 
seems reasonable to me.  Can chrony be configured to check in once a 
day.  I don't expect the time to be more accurate than 30 seconds.  The 
computer does run 24/7 so the drift is in the software.

Best regards,
Fred

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