Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > linux.debian.user > #201220 > unrolled thread

Micro-report: using Stable without systemd

Back to article view | Back to linux.debian.user

Contents

  Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-14 16:40 +0200
    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-14 18:20 +0200
      Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-10-14 20:30 +0200
        Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 22:10 +0200
          Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-10-14 22:30 +0200
            Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-15 10:10 +0200
              Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2018-10-15 10:50 +0200
                OT (as was to be expected) Trolling [was: Pico-report: using Stable  without sysvinit] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-15 11:10 +0200
                Re: Pico-report: using Stable without sysvinit Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 16:50 +0200
    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2018-10-14 18:20 +0200
      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-14 18:40 +0200
        Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Tixy <tixy@yxit.co.uk> - 2018-10-14 19:50 +0200
    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> - 2018-10-14 18:30 +0200
      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2018-10-14 19:30 +0200
    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2018-10-14 22:00 +0200
      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2018-10-15 07:20 +0200
    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-10-15 15:50 +0200
      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2018-10-15 16:20 +0200
        Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-10-16 11:20 +0200
          Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-16 11:40 +0200
            Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-16 17:40 +0200
              Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-10-16 18:20 +0200
                Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 18:40 +0200
                  Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-16 19:10 +0200
                    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Default User <hunguponcontent@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 20:20 +0200
                    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-10-16 22:40 +0200
                    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-16 23:50 +0200
                      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-17 10:30 +0200
                        Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-17 11:20 +0200
                          Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2018-10-17 12:00 +0200
                      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-10-17 10:50 +0200
                      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-10-17 14:50 +0200
                        Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-10-17 15:50 +0200
                Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-16 19:10 +0200
                  Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-10-16 19:30 +0200
                    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-10-16 21:20 +0200
                      X11 Forwarding and inet6 support on loopback (Was: Micro-report:  using Stable without systemd) Étienne Mollier <etienne.mollier@mailoo.org> - 2018-10-16 22:40 +0200
                    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-17 00:20 +0200
                      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-10-17 01:20 +0200
                        Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-17 02:20 +0200
                          Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Felmon Davis <davisf@union.edu> - 2018-10-17 08:40 +0200
                      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-10-17 06:00 +0200
                        Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-10-17 07:00 +0200
                          Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd mick crane <mick.crane@gmail.com> - 2018-10-17 09:50 +0200
                            Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2018-10-18 00:40 +0200
                      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Morel Bérenger <berenger.morel@sga-automation.com> - 2018-10-17 10:40 +0200
                        Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-17 11:00 +0200
                          Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Morel Bérenger <berenger.morel@sga-automation.com> - 2018-10-17 12:20 +0200
                            Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2018-10-17 19:20 +0200
                              Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Morel Bérenger <berenger.morel@sga-automation.com> - 2018-10-18 12:00 +0200
                      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Morel Bérenger <berenger.morel@sga-automation.com> - 2018-10-17 11:40 +0200
                  Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-10-16 22:40 +0200
                Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2018-10-16 21:50 +0200
          Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd john doe <johndoe65534@mail.com> - 2018-10-16 16:40 +0200
            Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-10-16 18:10 +0200
              Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Alessandro Vesely <vesely@tana.it> - 2018-10-16 20:40 +0200
    Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Morel Bérenger <berenger.morel@sga-automation.com> - 2018-10-16 21:30 +0200
      Re: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd Alessandro Vesely <vesely@tana.it> - 2018-10-17 11:00 +0200

Page 2 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3  Next page →

#201310

On Tuesday 16 October 2018 05:23:33 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:01:46AM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > If sysvinit was removed from Debian, than this would increase the
> > amount of work for Devuan quite significantly, because lots of
> > individual Debian packages that currently implement sysvinit support
> > would slowly start not to, and Devuan would have to patch support
> > back in, over time.
>
> This is the most important point: at the end, it's the individual
> packagers who are doing the hard work. Personally I'm pretty unhappy
> about the Debian/Devuan split, which stems from a lot of distrust.
> I'm convinced that in the long term, this distrust is
> counter-productive for "both sides".
>
> Cheers
> -- tomás

This distrust seems to stem from the accusation that red hat, as the 
source of systemd, is in the NSA's pocket, the most serious charge I've 
read on these lists. This has the same flavor and distrust associated 
with selinux, which it seems has faded into the sands of time as it 
deserves to do. Given the past, not even close to honest reputation of 
the TLA's here, its entirely plausible.

I don't know, but that fact that the charge has been made seems almost 
like a microsoft planted rumor. If the intent was to split us up and 
reduce our marketplace and political power, I'd have to say its working.

And I d-mned sure don't like it.

The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just what this 
thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to confirm or dispel this 
rumor, but those who do, tend to get shot at when they stick their heads 
up, so I cannot lay too much blame on their doorstep for not doing it.

We as a group, need to change our attitude toward the packagers as they 
try to hit a balance and give us good usefull code. There are channels 
to submit that which we think is wrong, called bugzilla. I think the 
packagers are doing a generally good, and often quite thankless job.

So here is my many thanks to them.

The only comment I'll make is that I would like to see the -Y option to 
ssh restored. Taking that away in jessie and stretch has been a huge 
hindrance in me getting what I want to do on my local network because it 
forces me to actually goto that machine to run its package manager's 
gui. That machine may not be equipt with a comfy office chair for such 
duties, it has another, more important function, and at my years, thats 
becoming a major hindrance.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201313

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18:10AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just what this
>thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to confirm or dispel this
>rumor

Why waste time giving credence to nonsense? Those who are prepared to
believe that systemd is some NSA trojan via a complicit Red Hat are
perfectly able to widen their paranoia to include any systemd packager
or advocate in Debian.

>

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201317

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 12:12 Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18:10AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just what this
> >thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to confirm or dispel this
> >rumor
>
> Why waste time giving credence to nonsense? Those who are prepared to
> believe that systemd is some NSA trojan via a complicit Red Hat are
> perfectly able to widen their paranoia to include any systemd packager
> or advocate in Debian.
>
> >
>
> --
>
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
> ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
>



Stockholm Syndrome detected!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201321

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:18:43PM -0400, Default User wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 12:12 Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18:10AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > >The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just what this
> > >thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to confirm or dispel this
> > >rumor
> >
> > Why waste time giving credence to nonsense? Those who are prepared to
> > believe that systemd is some NSA trojan via a complicit Red Hat are
> > perfectly able to widen their paranoia to include any systemd packager
> > or advocate in Debian.

[...]

> Stockholm Syndrome detected!

See? and this is why we can't have nice things. Look: I've got (in my
view) good reasons to dislike systemd, enough of them to rather use
sysv (which has its sizeable collection of warts itself!), but I don't
need to resort to crazy conspiracy theories. Much less to hate anyone
developing free software.

Cheers
-- tomás

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201325

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 13:06 <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:18:43PM -0400, Default User wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 12:12 Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18:10AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > >The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just what
> this
> > > >thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to confirm or dispel
> this
> > > >rumor
> > >
> > > Why waste time giving credence to nonsense? Those who are prepared to
> > > believe that systemd is some NSA trojan via a complicit Red Hat are
> > > perfectly able to widen their paranoia to include any systemd packager
> > > or advocate in Debian.
>
> [...]
>
> > Stockholm Syndrome detected!
>
> See? and this is why we can't have nice things. Look: I've got (in my
> view) good reasons to dislike systemd, enough of them to rather use
> sysv (which has its sizeable collection of warts itself!), but I don't
> need to resort to crazy conspiracy theories. Much less to hate anyone
> developing free software.
>
> Cheers
> -- tomás
>


Stockholm Syndrome confirmed!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201331

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 06:48:21PM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
>See? and this is why we can't have nice things.

Spam filters and killfiles are nice things. If you hadn't fed that
troll, I would never have seen that line of their message.


-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201336

On Tuesday 16 October 2018 12:48:21 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:18:43PM -0400, Default User wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 12:12 Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> wrote:
> > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18:10AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > >The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just
> > > > what this thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to
> > > > confirm or dispel this rumor

I thought it was a reasonable question, and I didn't start that rumor. 
Like most however, I am seeing our community shooting at each other and 
I don't like it.

> > > Why waste time giving credence to nonsense? Those who are prepared
> > > to believe that systemd is some NSA trojan via a complicit Red Hat
> > > are perfectly able to widen their paranoia to include any systemd
> > > packager or advocate in Debian.
>
> [...]
>
> > Stockholm Syndrome detected!
>
> See? and this is why we can't have nice things. Look: I've got (in my
> view) good reasons to dislike systemd, enough of them to rather use
> sysv (which has its sizeable collection of warts itself!), but I don't
> need to resort to crazy conspiracy theories. Much less to hate anyone
> developing free software.

The point is that no one from the systemd camp has, to my knowledge, 
posted a list of things it can do better than sysvinit. Point out 
sysvinit's warts, and what systemd does to excise the ugly stuff.

But there has been zero salesmanship that has reached my environment.

Its been a take it or go buy windows attitude.

Why is this? If there is a url explaining this, please post, so the rest 
of us can be educated.

I'm sure I am not the only one laying back to see the casualty
list before I commit to diving in head first.

> Cheers
> -- tomás

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201356

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 05:28:04PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

[...]

> The point is that no one from the systemd camp has, to my knowledge, 
> posted a list of things it can do better than sysvinit. Point out 
> sysvinit's warts, and what systemd does to excise the ugly stuff.

Now this is unfair. There *has* been a lot of discussion, by both
sides. Lennart Poettering himself (you /may/ like his ways or you
may dislike them) has gone out of his way to explain how the whole
thing works.

Off the top of may head, what systemd has to offer over (out-of-the-box)
sysvinit:

  - process supervision: when a daemon is started by sysvinit,
    it (typically) plonks its PID in some pid file. sysvinit
    forgets about it. If the proc dies, it's up to you to do
    something about it (there are "third-party" process supervisors
    like runit, or you can just bricolage your own, a thing I've
    done myself some times).

    This actually brings something back we (those old enough who
    weren't wasting their time back then with Norton Commander ;-)
    used to have with /etc/rc style booting. Those still showing
    some Pavlovian kind of salivation at the sight of "getty"
    and "respawn" will know what I mean

  - socket-based activation: systemd listens on IPC or network
    sockets, and whenever a "client" knocks on them, it starts
    the service supposed to be serving this socket: i.e. whenever
    someone tries to contact the PosrgreSQL database at port
    5432, the database is started.

    This takes a lot of manual work usually done to sort the
    starting order of services, because they "sort themselves",
    based on who needs whom.

    This will remind some of us of (x)inetd. It is similar, but
    not the same

  - Init configuration is expressed in a more declarative way
    ("what" you want to achieve) instead of the traditional
    imperative way ("how" you get there), which is deemed to
    be more robust wrt. change.

Now there are counter-arguments to all of that, and on my balance
they dominate (that's why I stick with sysvinit), but saying that
"no one from the systemd camp has ... posted a list of things ..."
is highly unfair. Look again.

You ask where? My go-to site for fundamental knowledge is lwn.net.
A (hpoefully *not* Google) network search "systemd site:lwn.net"
yields, among other things, those gems:

  Systemd programming part 1: modularity and configuration
  https://lwn.net/Articles/584175/

  Systemd programming part 2: activation and language issues
  https://lwn.net/Articles/587385/

Enjoy. And apologize to the systemd proponents ;-)

(And all of this from a systemd opponent. Sheesh.)

Cheers
-- tomás
    

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201361

On Wednesday 17 October 2018 04:11:00 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 05:28:04PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > The point is that no one from the systemd camp has, to my knowledge,
> > posted a list of things it can do better than sysvinit. Point out
> > sysvinit's warts, and what systemd does to excise the ugly stuff.
>
> Now this is unfair. There *has* been a lot of discussion, by both
> sides. Lennart Poettering himself (you /may/ like his ways or you
> may dislike them) has gone out of his way to explain how the whole
> thing works.
>
> Off the top of may head, what systemd has to offer over
> (out-of-the-box) sysvinit:
>
>   - process supervision: when a daemon is started by sysvinit,
>     it (typically) plonks its PID in some pid file. sysvinit
>     forgets about it. If the proc dies, it's up to you to do
>     something about it (there are "third-party" process supervisors
>     like runit, or you can just bricolage your own, a thing I've
>     done myself some times).
>
>     This actually brings something back we (those old enough who
>     weren't wasting their time back then with Norton Commander ;-)

Norton Commander? Heard of it, never used it, never had a dos or windows 
box of my own. I went from trs-80 color computers running the unix-like  
os9, to amigados, to linux, and have never missed amigados's lack of a 
memory management. I recall the early days when CED would scribble all 
over memory it didn't own so you were looking at the guru entirely too 
often.  That finally got fixed but it took years.

>     used to have with /etc/rc style booting. Those still showing
>     some Pavlovian kind of salivation at the sight of "getty"
>     and "respawn" will know what I mean
>
>   - socket-based activation: systemd listens on IPC or network
>     sockets, and whenever a "client" knocks on them, it starts
>     the service supposed to be serving this socket: i.e. whenever
>     someone tries to contact the PosrgreSQL database at port
>     5432, the database is started.
>
>     This takes a lot of manual work usually done to sort the
>     starting order of services, because they "sort themselves",
>     based on who needs whom.
>
>     This will remind some of us of (x)inetd. It is similar, but
>     not the same

And amanda, being very old school, is still managed by it.
>
>   - Init configuration is expressed in a more declarative way
>     ("what" you want to achieve) instead of the traditional
>     imperative way ("how" you get there), which is deemed to
>     be more robust wrt. change.
>
> Now there are counter-arguments to all of that, and on my balance
> they dominate (that's why I stick with sysvinit), but saying that
> "no one from the systemd camp has ... posted a list of things ..."
> is highly unfair. Look again.

Where?

> You ask where? My go-to site for fundamental knowledge is lwn.net.
> A (hpoefully *not* Google) network search "systemd site:lwn.net"
> yields, among other things, those gems:

Not an lwn subscriber. I mean publically available sites. lwn is not.

>   Systemd programming part 1: modularity and configuration
>   https://lwn.net/Articles/584175/
>
By golly, the embargo has expired, so the public can access them. I WILL 
read them when I have working eyes again.

>   Systemd programming part 2: activation and language issues
>   https://lwn.net/Articles/587385/
>
> Enjoy. And apologize to the systemd proponents ;-)

We'll see, after I have absorbed what lwn has to offer. I've never been 
bashfull about that when I find I'm wrong.
>
> (And all of this from a systemd opponent. Sheesh.)

That figures, Tomas, many thanks.

> Cheers
> -- tomás

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201363

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 04:58:58AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 17 October 2018 04:11:00 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> > Now there are counter-arguments to all of that, and on my balance
> > they dominate (that's why I stick with sysvinit), but saying that
> > "no one from the systemd camp has ... posted a list of things ..."
> > is highly unfair. Look again.
> 
> Where?
> 
> > You ask where? My go-to site for fundamental knowledge is lwn.net.
> > A (hpoefully *not* Google) network search "systemd site:lwn.net"
> > yields, among other things, those gems:
> 
> Not an lwn subscriber. I mean publically available sites. lwn is not.

C'mon, Gene. You can do better. Just /look/ at things before stating
alternative facts.

LWN /is/ a subscription-financed site. But its content is generally
available, has always been. Non-subscribers just "pay" a week's
delay for editorial content. After that, it's accessible to all, no
strings attached.
 
> >   Systemd programming part 1: modularity and configuration
> >   https://lwn.net/Articles/584175/
> >
> By golly, the embargo has expired, so the public can access them. I WILL 
> read them when I have working eyes again.

The "embargo" is, and has been for a long time, just one week. For a
subscriber-sponsored publication (which is very important, because this
means independency from the Big Ones!), this is outstanding, IMHO.

> We'll see, after I have absorbed what lwn has to offer. I've never been 
> bashfull about that when I find I'm wrong.

:-)

> > (And all of this from a systemd opponent. Sheesh.)
> 
> That figures, Tomas, many thanks.

I never dreamt I was going to do this ;-D

Cheers
-- tomás

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201358

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 05:28:04PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18:10AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> > > >The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just
>> > > > what this thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to
>> > > > confirm or dispel this rumor
>
>I thought it was a reasonable question, and I didn't start that rumor.
>Like most however, I am seeing our community shooting at each other and
>I don't like it.

I didn't see a question: I saw an assertion that the systemd packagers
should take some action.

Starting rumors is like being patient 0 in a pandemic It's useful to
know who/where/what patient 0 is/was, but stopping the pandemic means
stopping the carriers.

>The point is that no one from the systemd camp has, to my knowledge,
>posted a list of things it can do better than sysvinit. Point out
>sysvinit's warts, and what systemd does to excise the ugly stuff.
>
>But there has been zero salesmanship that has reached my environment.

My first reaction to this was amazement that you could have missed this
stuff, of which there is plenty. But, on reflection, many people will
have missed it, because of the terrible signal:noise ratio whenever the
topic comes up.

>Why is this? If there is a url explaining this, please post, so the rest
>of us can be educated.

I'm not going to advocate for systemd, and if you want to evaluate it
for your own use, please do so actively, not passively. It would wise
also to ask general questions about it on its own mailing list(s) rather
than here. I will, however, re-post one URI I posted in another reply
(regarding security). It's the twelfth post in a series of in-depth,
technical focus articles that talk about the things you can do with
systemd. If you truly are interested in checking it out, then this
series is a good place to start.

http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/security.html

>I'm sure I am not the only one laying back to see the casualty
>list before I commit to diving in head first.

Fair enough holding off on looking at it; but please don't ask people to
spoon-feed the salient points afterwards. Some of us are already
forgetting life under sysvinit, so it's getting harder by the day to try
and answer the question of why we switched in retrospect.

Doing some research would also help you to answer your own question as
to the likelyhood of it being an NSA/Microsoft/alien plot etc.

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201368

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 05:28:04PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> The point is that no one from the systemd camp has, to my knowledge, 
> posted a list of things it can do better than sysvinit. Point out 
> sysvinit's warts, and what systemd does to excise the ugly stuff.

I'm not really in "the systemd camp", but I'm definitely in the group
of people who want to get away from sysv-rc because of its tremendous
flaws.

In addition to the responses you've already received, here's one in
the form of a Frequently Given Answer.  I consider it a good starting
point if you're already an experienced sysadmin.

http://jdebp.eu./FGA/system-5-rc-problems.html

That said, it might not be the best starting point for novices who are
wondering what all this stuff even *means*.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201375

On 10/17/2018 07:32 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 05:28:04PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> The point is that no one from the systemd camp has, to my knowledge,
>> posted a list of things it can do better than sysvinit. Point out
>> sysvinit's warts, and what systemd does to excise the ugly stuff.
> 
> I'm not really in "the systemd camp", but I'm definitely in the group
> of people who want to get away from sysv-rc because of its tremendous
> flaws.
> 
> In addition to the responses you've already received, here's one in
> the form of a Frequently Given Answer.  I consider it a good starting
> point if you're already an experienced sysadmin.
> 
> http://jdebp.eu./FGA/system-5-rc-problems.html
> 
> That said, it might not be the best starting point for novices who are
> wondering what all this stuff even *means*.
> 

Speaking as a novice, it may not be the ideal starting point. But it is 
well written and without vitriol. A novice may not understand important 
details, but he should come away with an idea why developers tackled it.

I'll have to give it a detailed read when I have time to actively pursue 
nested links.
Thanks for the reference.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201319

On Tuesday 16 October 2018 11:54:48 Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:18:10AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >The packagers, who probably have a better overall view of just what
> > this thing called systemd is, should be speaking up to confirm or
> > dispel this rumor
>
> Why waste time giving credence to nonsense? Those who are prepared to
> believe that systemd is some NSA trojan via a complicit Red Hat are
> perfectly able to widen their paranoia to include any systemd packager
> or advocate in Debian.

You forget I'm a red hat ex-pat. Fedora was their lab rat and they had an 
endless supply of those so they didn't care if a fedora system died.  I 
got tired of an unusable system because my rat died, repeatedly, and 
voted with my feet to a superior distro.  And for 2 reasons I'm still on 
wheezy for 80% of the running machines here.

#1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing it and 
bug filing is ignored.

#2 is linuxcnc is still being built and developed on wheezy.

I understand that a stretch version is being worked on, but no alpha 
versions we can try have been made available. It does run on armhf 
versions of jessie, although the pi is low on iron to really do the job 
up to the usual std's for linuxcnc. It is however, doing a decent job of 
moving 1500 lbs of 70 year old 11x36 Sheldon lathe for me, doing far 
more than Sheldon made it to do.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201322

On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing it and 
> bug filing is ignored.

I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the following
experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in communications with
a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our network.

1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.

2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3

3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell prompt, I
   typed: xterm

4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.

5) Inside this xterm, to confirm that the xterm was running on arc3,
   I typed: uname -a

Terminal sessions shown without modification:

=====================================================
wooledg:~$ ssh -Y arc3
wooledg@arc3's password: 
Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5 (2018-09-30) i686

The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free software;
the exact distribution terms for each program are described in the
individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.

Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent
permitted by applicable law.
Last login: Mon Oct  1 17:18:16 2018 from 10.76.172.97
$ xterm

=====================================================
$ uname -a
Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5 (2018-09-30) i686 GNU/Linux
$ 
=====================================================

So, I don't know why you believe that ssh's -Y option has been "killed".
If you are having trouble with it, start a new thread and we can try to
help you figure out what's wrong.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201327

On 2018-10-16 18:11, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing it 
>> and
>> bug filing is ignored.
> 
> I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the following
> experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in communications with
> a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our network.
> 
> 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
> 
> 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
> 
> 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell prompt, I
>    typed: xterm
> 
> 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.
> 
> 5) Inside this xterm, to confirm that the xterm was running on arc3,
>    I typed: uname -a
> 
> Terminal sessions shown without modification:

works here with Buster.
"ssh -Y me@otherPC"
"xclock"

xclock appears

mick

-- 
Key ID    4BFEBB31

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201334 — X11 Forwarding and inet6 support on loopback (Was: Micro-report: using Stable without systemd)

On 10/16/18 8:57 PM, mick crane wrote:
> On 2018-10-16 18:11, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing it and
>>> bug filing is ignored.
>>
>> I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the following
>> experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in communications with
>> a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our network.
>>
>> 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
>>
>> 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
>>
>> 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell prompt, I
>>    typed: xterm
>>
>> 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.
>>
>> 5) Inside this xterm, to confirm that the xterm was running on arc3,
>>    I typed: uname -a
>>
>> Terminal sessions shown without modification:
> 
> works here with Buster.
> "ssh -Y me@otherPC"
> "xclock"
> 
> xclock appears
> 
> mick
> 


Hi all,

I believe the following problem was referred to, which somehow,
is network specific:

	https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg00836.html

Digging more in that issue shows that, somehow, the forwarding
expects the loopback address to be reachable in inet6.  Indeed
the following command, run on SSH server side, is sufficient to
trigger the issue:

	server$ sudo ip address del ::1/128 dev lo

On client side (whatever the real network interface configuration
is, IPv4 or 6, on client or server):

	client$ ssh -Y server
	login@server's password:
	X11 forwarding request failed on channel 0
	[...]

Putting back IPv6 support in the loopback does the trick:

	server$ sudo ip address add ::1/128 dev lo

	client$ ssh -Y server
	login@server's password:
	[...]
	$ echo $DISPLAY
	localhost:10.0

(this or the solution proposed previously, in the sshd_config file)

Perhaps, it could be commonly expected that, whatever the
situation is, being either at the capital, or in the middle of
the Kamchatka, the loopback would better be always addressable
both in IPv4 (127.0.0.1/8) and IPv6 (::1/128).  (Modulo kernel
support maybe...)


Actually, the problem seems more complex than that, and lurks
for some years:

	2007: https://bugzilla.mindrot.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1356
	2013: https://bugzilla.mindrot.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2143
	2017: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1436097

I understand that there is no fix in sight because SSH devs
fear to undo a fix for an old vulnerability.  Given the
purpose of SSH, better be careful on the way patches are
brought indeed.


Kind Regards,
-- 
Étienne Mollier <etienne.mollier@mailoo.org>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201338

On Tuesday 16 October 2018 13:11:45 Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing it
> > and bug filing is ignored.
>
> I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the following
> experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in communications with
> a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our network.
>
> 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
>
> 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
>
> 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell prompt,
> I typed: xterm
>
> 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.

Thats expected. Now enter synaptic-pkexec. It should ask you, if you are 
user 1000, for a passwd and given it, it will run. But after wheezy, its 
not possible. LinuxCNC's graphics needs are modest, and it will run, as 
the user. But its not root. And root is denied regardless of how you go 
about obtaining root permissions.  For me, its a right PITA because I am 
forced to goto that machines keyboard/monitor location when there is 
something I need to install. And those, with a single exception, are all 
standup, look up at the monitor and get a sore neck from tilting ones 
head back far enough to get the bi section of my trifocals up so I can 
read what the monitor is telling me. I presume all this discomfort is 
the result of somebody deciding that root cannot be trusted to export 
the gui of the program he wants to run.

That to me is quite similar to the warm, sometimes steaming green/brown 
piles of used food for the male of the bovine specie.

It is my machine, let me run it the way /I/ want.


> 5) Inside this xterm, to confirm that the xterm was running on arc3,
>    I typed: uname -a
>
> Terminal sessions shown without modification:
>
> =====================================================
> wooledg:~$ ssh -Y arc3
> wooledg@arc3's password:
> Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5 (2018-09-30)
> i686
>
> The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free
> software; the exact distribution terms for each program are described
> in the individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.
>
> Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent
> permitted by applicable law.
> Last login: Mon Oct  1 17:18:16 2018 from 10.76.172.97
> $ xterm
>
> =====================================================
> $ uname -a
> Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5 (2018-09-30)
> i686 GNU/Linux $
> =====================================================
>
> So, I don't know why you believe that ssh's -Y option has been
> "killed". If you are having trouble with it, start a new thread and we
> can try to help you figure out what's wrong.

See above, and tell me again that its not /now/ broken. I need some 
levity at my age.

As for the new thread, I have posted to this list 3 or 4 times about this 
and got nothing but crickets. After a while, one gets the impression its 
a verboten question.

Thanks Greg. I'd continue this argument, but I'd better go put on my 
chefs hat and see what my lady wants for dinner. Then its eyedrops time 
and bedtime as I'm getting a new lens in my right eye early in the 
morning. And the OR is nearly an hour away, so I'll need to be on the 
road by 6AM.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201344

On Tue 16 Oct 2018 at 17:53:37 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 16 October 2018 13:11:45 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing it
> > > and bug filing is ignored.
> >
> > I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the following
> > experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in communications with
> > a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our network.
> >
> > 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
> >
> > 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
> >
> > 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell prompt,
> > I typed: xterm
> >
> > 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.
> 
> Thats expected. Now enter synaptic-pkexec. It should ask you, if you are 
> user 1000, for a passwd and given it, it will run. But after wheezy, its 
> not possible. LinuxCNC's graphics needs are modest, and it will run, as 
> the user. But its not root. And root is denied regardless of how you go 
> about obtaining root permissions.  For me, its a right PITA because I am 
> forced to goto that machines keyboard/monitor location when there is 
> something I need to install. And those, with a single exception, are all 
> standup, look up at the monitor and get a sore neck from tilting ones 
> head back far enough to get the bi section of my trifocals up so I can 
> read what the monitor is telling me. I presume all this discomfort is 
> the result of somebody deciding that root cannot be trusted to export 
> the gui of the program he wants to run.
> 
> That to me is quite similar to the warm, sometimes steaming green/brown 
> piles of used food for the male of the bovine specie.
> 
> It is my machine, let me run it the way /I/ want.
> 
> 
> > 5) Inside this xterm, to confirm that the xterm was running on arc3,
> >    I typed: uname -a
> >
> > Terminal sessions shown without modification:
> >
> > =====================================================
> > wooledg:~$ ssh -Y arc3
> > wooledg@arc3's password:
> > Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5 (2018-09-30)
> > i686
> >
> > The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free
> > software; the exact distribution terms for each program are described
> > in the individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.
> >
> > Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent
> > permitted by applicable law.
> > Last login: Mon Oct  1 17:18:16 2018 from 10.76.172.97
> > $ xterm
> >
> > =====================================================
> > $ uname -a
> > Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5 (2018-09-30)
> > i686 GNU/Linux $
> > =====================================================
> >
> > So, I don't know why you believe that ssh's -Y option has been
> > "killed". If you are having trouble with it, start a new thread and we
> > can try to help you figure out what's wrong.
> 
> See above, and tell me again that its not /now/ broken. I need some 
> levity at my age.
> 
> As for the new thread, I have posted to this list 3 or 4 times about this 
> and got nothing but crickets. After a while, one gets the impression its 
> a verboten question.

I was under the impression that your ssh X forwarding problem was fixed
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg00836.html as was your
synaptic problem https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg00870.html
or have you changed your mind?

Cheers,
David.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#201346

On Tuesday 16 October 2018 19:01:53 David Wright wrote:

> On Tue 16 Oct 2018 at 17:53:37 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Tuesday 16 October 2018 13:11:45 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:43:40PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > #1 is ssh -Y has been killed from jessie on. No excuse for doing
> > > > it and bug filing is ignored.
> > >
> > > I don't know what you mean by this.  I just performed the
> > > following experiment on my stretch workstation (wooledg), in
> > > communications with a stretch server (arc3) elsewhere on our
> > > network.
> > >
> > > 1) Already logged into wooledg, I opened a new urxvt window.
> > >
> > > 2) In this window, I typed: ssh -Y arc3
> > >
> > > 3) After authenticating to arc3 with a password, at the shell
> > > prompt, I typed: xterm
> > >
> > > 4) After a moment, a new xterm window appeared on my display.
> >
> > Thats expected. Now enter synaptic-pkexec. It should ask you, if you
> > are user 1000, for a passwd and given it, it will run. But after
> > wheezy, its not possible. LinuxCNC's graphics needs are modest, and
> > it will run, as the user. But its not root. And root is denied
> > regardless of how you go about obtaining root permissions.  For me,
> > its a right PITA because I am forced to goto that machines
> > keyboard/monitor location when there is something I need to install.
> > And those, with a single exception, are all standup, look up at the
> > monitor and get a sore neck from tilting ones head back far enough
> > to get the bi section of my trifocals up so I can read what the
> > monitor is telling me. I presume all this discomfort is the result
> > of somebody deciding that root cannot be trusted to export the gui
> > of the program he wants to run.
> >
> > That to me is quite similar to the warm, sometimes steaming
> > green/brown piles of used food for the male of the bovine specie.
> >
> > It is my machine, let me run it the way /I/ want.
> >
> > > 5) Inside this xterm, to confirm that the xterm was running on
> > > arc3, I typed: uname -a
> > >
> > > Terminal sessions shown without modification:
> > >
> > > =====================================================
> > > wooledg:~$ ssh -Y arc3
> > > wooledg@arc3's password:
> > > Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5
> > > (2018-09-30) i686
> > >
> > > The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free
> > > software; the exact distribution terms for each program are
> > > described in the individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.
> > >
> > > Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent
> > > permitted by applicable law.
> > > Last login: Mon Oct  1 17:18:16 2018 from 10.76.172.97
> > > $ xterm
> > >
> > > =====================================================
> > > $ uname -a
> > > Linux arc3 4.9.0-8-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 4.9.110-3+deb9u5
> > > (2018-09-30) i686 GNU/Linux $
> > > =====================================================
> > >
> > > So, I don't know why you believe that ssh's -Y option has been
> > > "killed". If you are having trouble with it, start a new thread
> > > and we can try to help you figure out what's wrong.
> >
> > See above, and tell me again that its not /now/ broken. I need some
> > levity at my age.
> >
> > As for the new thread, I have posted to this list 3 or 4 times about
> > this and got nothing but crickets. After a while, one gets the
> > impression its a verboten question.
>
> I was under the impression that your ssh X forwarding problem was
> fixed https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg00836.html as
> was your synaptic problem
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg00870.html or have you
> changed your mind?
>
No, but never having gotten into the habit of using it, I had forgotten 
about it already. Its working on jessie (armhf) now try stretch (arm64)
I didn't have to enter my pw for jessie, but had to on stretch but both 
are running, so lets see if stretch actually works. Yes, now to paint it 
on the wall so I don't forget again. :(

Other things on my mind, like the cataract op on my right eye at 7AM, an 
hour north of here.  Or we could blame it on oldtimers, I have fought 
with this for 2 years!


> Cheers,
> David.



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 2 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | linux.debian.user

csiph-web