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Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

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  Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-09-27 18:10 +0200
    Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-27 22:10 +0200
      Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Richard Hector <richard@walnut.gen.nz> - 2018-09-28 07:40 +0200
        Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 11:00 +0200
          Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2018-09-28 11:20 +0200
            Re: DVD+R DL and BD media. Was: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 11:40 +0200
          Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 12:30 +0200
            Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 12:50 +0200
              Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 13:20 +0200
                Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 15:10 +0200
              Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-09-28 15:40 +0200
          Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 16:50 +0200
            Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-28 17:00 +0200
              Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-09-28 17:40 +0200
                Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 17:50 +0200
                  Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-28 18:10 +0200
                    Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-09-28 18:20 +0200
                    Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 20:30 +0200
                      Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 21:50 +0200
                  Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 20:30 +0200
                    Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 21:30 +0200
                Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-28 17:50 +0200
                Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 18:20 +0200
            Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-28 17:00 +0200
        Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2018-09-28 19:30 +0200
      Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> - 2018-09-28 10:10 +0200
        Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2018-09-28 20:10 +0200
          Future of cdrkit. Was: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-09-28 21:10 +0200
    Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-27 22:10 +0200
      Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-28 13:10 +0200
        Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-09-28 14:10 +0200
          Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ? Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-09-28 15:30 +0200

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#200684 — Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 05:59:42PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Alternatively:
> - Does the wiki have means to discuss facts or to leave messages
>   to other editors why a particular change was undone ?

The "Comment" box on the edit page is the obvious place to state your
reason for reverting someone else's change.  If you need more space than
the wiki revision comment box provides (I don't know how many characters
that is in moinmoin off hand, but I think it's a few hundred), then it
becomes more of an issue.  Moinmoin doesn't maintain a parallel "Talk"
page namespace.  You can put your explanation directly onto the page
itself, if you think it will be of general interest.

In the case of the BurnCd page, I actually *do* think that it would be
of general interest to readers to have a paragraph explaining the limits
of wodim, and when not to use it.  As well as the other tools, if they
have important restrictions and limits.

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#200686

Hi,

Greg Wooledge wrote:
> In the case of the BurnCd page, I actually *do* think that it would be
> of general interest to readers to have a paragraph explaining the limits
> of wodim, and when not to use it.

Let me try ... hrr-umm ... 

wodim was cloned from cdrecord in 2006. At that time, cdrecord had few
clue about DVD burning and hid this behind a 1 GB size limit of the
free program version. The full size version was not available at all.
wodim got implanted DVD-related code from an earlier cdrecord clone
which hacked around the size limitation.

But still wodim is handling any DVD as if it was a large CD-R.
This works halfways with DVD-R and, depending the medium state, with
other media after due rejection of inappropriate SCSI commands by the
drive.
But it is awful, specs-wise !

wodim is factually abandoned by its cloners Joerg Jaspert, Steve McIntyre,
and Eduard Bloch. Its home page is gone, its change history is gone.

In contrast to that, the doings of dvd+rw-tools (growisofs) and of libburn
can be justified by the MMC-5 specs. In case of libburn there is even an
active upstream developer (myself).

---------------------------------------------------------------------

But who wants to read about 12 year old quarrels between Debian Developers
and the upstream developer of cdrecord ?

My way to express the current technical situation was the statement:

  "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."

which now became

  "Some believe it would be better if wodim were not used with DVD or BD
   media. Perhaps so, but there are many variables involved, most
   especially burner types and condition, and media quality.
   '''Burn on one does not necessarily mean readable on another.'''"

It is not the opinion of "some". It is the opionion of me, the expert (tm).

And yes, there are ill burners and media which produce poorly readble
results. But this is _not_ normal. If hardware behaves that way, then
it is to blame, and not the burn program.
(Even wodims's failures are repeatable.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200693

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 28/09/18 8:00 AM, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Greg Wooledge wrote:
>> In the case of the BurnCd page, I actually *do* think that it would be
>> of general interest to readers to have a paragraph explaining the limits
>> of wodim, and when not to use it.
> 
> Let me try ... hrr-umm ... 
> 
> wodim was cloned from cdrecord in 2006. At that time, cdrecord had few
> clue about DVD burning and hid this behind a 1 GB size limit of the
> free program version. The full size version was not available at all.
> wodim got implanted DVD-related code from an earlier cdrecord clone
> which hacked around the size limitation.
> 
> But still wodim is handling any DVD as if it was a large CD-R.
> This works halfways with DVD-R and, depending the medium state, with
> other media after due rejection of inappropriate SCSI commands by the
> drive.
> But it is awful, specs-wise !
> 
> wodim is factually abandoned by its cloners Joerg Jaspert, Steve McIntyre,
> and Eduard Bloch. Its home page is gone, its change history is gone.
> 
> In contrast to that, the doings of dvd+rw-tools (growisofs) and of libburn
> can be justified by the MMC-5 specs. In case of libburn there is even an
> active upstream developer (myself).
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> But who wants to read about 12 year old quarrels between Debian Developers
> and the upstream developer of cdrecord ?
> 
> My way to express the current technical situation was the statement:
> 
>   "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."
> 
> which now became
> 
>   "Some believe it would be better if wodim were not used with DVD or BD
>    media. Perhaps so, but there are many variables involved, most
>    especially burner types and condition, and media quality.
>    '''Burn on one does not necessarily mean readable on another.'''"
> 
> It is not the opinion of "some". It is the opionion of me, the expert (tm).
> 
> And yes, there are ill burners and media which produce poorly readble
> results. But this is _not_ normal. If hardware behaves that way, then
> it is to blame, and not the burn program.
> (Even wodims's failures are repeatable.)

How about something like:

"wodim may sometimes work with DVD or BD media, but the results will not
meet the relevant specifications."

or perhaps s/work/appear to work/

Note: I have no expertise in this area; I'm merely interpreting the
comments above.

Richard

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#200701

Hi,

Brian proposed:
>  There is (strong? extensive?) evidence that wodim should not be used
>  with DVD or BD media. However, the many variables involved, especially
>  burner types and media type and quality, could result a successful
>  burn.

There are not that many variables:

Drive type: burner/reader of CD, DVD, BD media.
Medium type: DVD-R, DVD-R DL, DVD+R, DVD+R DL DVD+RW, DVD-RW, DVD-RAM,
             BD-R, BD-RE (other than with DVD, the multi-layer BD media
             do not differ in behavior from the single-layer BD media)
Medium write state: blank, appendable, closed.
Medium formatting state: DVD-RW and BD-R have more than one personality.

A burn program should know them and be able to handle their possible
combinations. That's what wodim fails to do with DVD and BD.

Erratic variables are the health of computer, drive, and medium.
(Error key B often indicates power supply or bus problems.
 OPC errors or write errors often indicate problems of the drive and/or
 of the medium.)


Richard Hector proposed:
> "wodim may sometimes work with DVD or BD media, but the results will not
> meet the relevant specifications."

It is not so much about the results. If the drive is healthy and does not
barf on wodim's commands, then a healthy medium gets written readable data.

It is about wodim's cluelessness about DVD and the lack of maintainership.

Be it about error replies from the drive
  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=609763
  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=651847
  (Did not recognize Descriptor format sense code. The reported error is
   B,0,0 (= abort message, actually from kernel) not 0,0,3 (=nonsense).)

Be it about single-session DVD+R
  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=386640

Be it about multi-session on DVD+R
  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=641147

Be it about double-layer features
  https://bugs.launchpad.net/linuxmint/+bug/1094796

Be it about media types more modern than wodim's last change
  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=782429

Not to forget the wonderful bit rot (not DVD specific)
  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=679839
  (One would just have to let it scan /dev/sr* rather than /dev/scd*.)

Who advises wodim for DVD or BD should also care for these bug reports.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Debian BurnCd wiki page shall give tangible instructions for users,
not discuss under what circumstances inappropriate SCSI preparations
succeed nevertheless.

Given the history, the bug reports, and the maintainership situation,
i still stand by the straight statement:

  wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media.

The word "better" indicates that success with wodim is not impossible.
(I just tested. DVD+RW it does quite well. But so does "dd" too.)

If you use wodim with CD media and experience failure, then it is in
most cases due to bad drve or medium.
But a wodim failure with DVD or BD can mean anything.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hm. Another user "jmtd" is editing in BurnCd.
Now i am curious whether the wodim-DVD-BD statement will be changed too.

Nevertheless, i plan to defend my version duely, unless a wodim maintainer
shows up and promises to take care of the bugs and code shortcommings.
I would be willing to help.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200703

Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Nevertheless, i plan to defend my version duely, unless a wodim maintainer
> shows up and promises to take care of the bugs and code shortcommings.
> I would be willing to help.

Thanks, I suspected something wrong with DVD writing for a long time
already. Your post tells me I was not wrong.
I was trying to burn DVD+DL and had the feeling it does not do what I want
it to do. I trashed couple of DL DVDs - each costs ~3€.

regards

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#200705 — Re: DVD+R DL and BD media. Was: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?

Hi,

deloptes wrote:
> I was trying to burn DVD+DL and had the feeling it does not do what I want
> it to do. I trashed couple of DL DVDs - each costs ~3€.

Yes. I too experienced that DVD+R DL are the most early type to fail
on an ageing drive. I still have half a spindle of them, but only
for the purpose of testing media recognition.
(3 EUR as price is quite a while ago. Now you get them for less than 1 EUR.)


To our luck, BD burners became achievable (~ 80 EUR + possibly USB box)
and single layer BD-R media became cheaper than DVD+R DL. My last buy
of 10 pieces on spindle was
  Verbatim BD-RE 25 GB  10.33
  Primeon BD-RE 25 GB    7.60
  Verbatim BD-R 25 GB    5.92
  Primeon BD-R 25 GB     5.20

My oldest BD burner is picky with BD-RE and likes both brands.
My youngest BD burner likes both brands of BD-R and BD-RE.
I cannot get first generation "2x" BD-R for the old one any more.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200707

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 10:57:12 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The Debian BurnCd wiki page shall give tangible instructions for users,
> not discuss under what circumstances inappropriate SCSI preparations
> succeed nevertheless.
> 
> Given the history, the bug reports, and the maintainership situation,
> i still stand by the straight statement:
> 
>   wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media.
> 
> The word "better" indicates that success with wodim is not impossible.
> (I just tested. DVD+RW it does quite well. But so does "dd" too.)
> 
> If you use wodim with CD media and experience failure, then it is in
> most cases due to bad drve or medium.
> But a wodim failure with DVD or BD can mean anything.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Then revert the edit and link to this thread:

 wodim should [[https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01031.html better|not be used]] with DVD or BD media.

-- 
Brian.

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#200709

Hi,

Brian wrote:
> Then revert the edit and link to this thread:
> wodim should [[https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01031.html
> better|not be used]] with DVD or BD media.

I still hope for a statement by the (nominal) wodim maintainers.

... or maybe StephenKeeling shows up ...


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200712

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 12:46:27 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Brian wrote:
> > Then revert the edit and link to this thread:
> > wodim should [[https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01031.html
> > better|not be used]] with DVD or BD media.
> 
> I still hope for a statement by the (nominal) wodim maintainers.

Keep hoping. Meanwhile, stand by your statement and the authority behind
it.

> ... or maybe StephenKeeling shows up ...

If discussion with StephenKeeling was likely to lead to a change of mind
on your part there might be some point in waiting for this to happen.

-- 
Brian.

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#200715

Hi,

Curt wrote:
> The French Wiki has something like: 
>  It is preferable not to use wodim with DVD or BD media.

It advise to stay with this for now.


> > I still hope for a statement by the (nominal) wodim maintainers.

Brian wrote:
> Keep hoping.

Well, Steve McIntyre does show up here from time to time.


> Meanwhile, stand by your statement and the authority behind it

The fork of wodim from cdrecord happened because of the	authoritarian
behavior of cdrecord's upstream developer.
I try to be more community oriented, especially if my own software is
involved.


> If discussion with StephenKeeling was likely to lead to a change of mind
> on your part there might be some point in waiting for this to happen.

At least i want to learn why he feels the need for pushing wodim onto
the playing field of DVD and BD burning.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200717

On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 12:46:27PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>I still hope for a statement by the (nominal) wodim maintainers.

I spoke to one this morning, and they're aware of this thread but very
busy, I think they intend to do something at some point, so watch this
space :-)

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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#200719

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 10:57:12 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Hm. Another user "jmtd" is editing in BurnCd.
> Now i am curious whether the wodim-DVD-BD statement will be changed too.

Have you satisfied your curiosity?

-- 
Brian.

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#200720

On 2018-09-28, Curt <curty@free.fr> wrote:
> On 2018-09-28, Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 10:57:12 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
>>
>>> Hm. Another user "jmtd" is editing in BurnCd.
>>> Now i am curious whether the wodim-DVD-BD statement will be changed too.
>>
>> Have you satisfied your curiosity?
>
> He says:
>  
>  revert StephenKeeling's edit rewording warning about wodim - see recent
>  discussion on debian-user for background, please join the discussion if
>  you disagree
>

It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.

But give 'em the moon and they want the stars I guess!


-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

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#200722

On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 02:53:35PM +0000, Curt wrote:
>It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
>bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.

For the avoidance of any doubt, jmtd is me (Jonathan Michael Thomas
Dowland). I'm not involved in cdrkit development.

I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather
than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised
that.

-- 

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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#200724

Hi,

Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> For the avoidance of any doubt, jmtd is me (Jonathan Michael Thomas
> Dowland).

Thanks for sparing me the questionable deed to revert the change myself.
So it is not a wiki war.


> I'm not involved in cdrkit development.

Nobody is involved there. Else i would chew off that person's ear in
the hope to get the shortcommings fixed.


Curt wrote:
> > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
> > bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.

Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather
> than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised
> that.

So how should the statement be improved ?


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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#200726

On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> Curt wrote:
>> > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
>> > bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.
>
> Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>> I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather
>> than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised
>> that.
>
> So how should the statement be improved ?

"should better not be used" is a bit twisted.

You could say:

 It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media.

Or:
 
 It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media.

Or:

 Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is
 best avoided when burning to those media.

I'm learning in real time that it's easy to criticize but harder to come
up with something yourself.

;-)

>
> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas
>
>


-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

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#200729

On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 03:59:26PM +0000, Curt wrote:
> "should better not be used" is a bit twisted.
> 
> You could say:
> 
>  It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media.
> 
> Or:
>  
>  It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media.
> 
> Or:
> 
>  Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is
>  best avoided when burning to those media.

I'm fond of:

  wodim should not be used.

Although that may be too strong.  Maybe keep that "with DVD/BD media" bit
on the end. ;-)

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#200734

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 15:59:26 +0000, Curt wrote:

> On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:
> >
> > Curt wrote:
> >> > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
> >> > bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.
> >
> > Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> >> I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather
> >> than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised
> >> that.
> >
> > So how should the statement be improved ?
> 
> "should better not be used" is a bit twisted.
> 
> You could say:
> 
>  It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media.
> 
> Or:
>  
>  It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media.
> 
> Or:
> 
>  Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is
>  best avoided when burning to those media.

The last statement is good and the one I'd be inclined to go with, maybe
qualifying "less" with "much".

-- 
Brian.

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#200740

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 19:10:40 +0100, Brian wrote:

> On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 15:59:26 +0000, Curt wrote:
> 
> > On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt <scdbackup@gmx.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Curt wrote:
> > >> > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too
> > >> > bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it.
> > >
> > > Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > >> I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather
> > >> than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised
> > >> that.
> > >
> > > So how should the statement be improved ?
> > 
> > "should better not be used" is a bit twisted.
> > 
> > You could say:
> > 
> >  It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media.
> > 
> > Or:
> >  
> >  It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media.
> > 
> > Or:
> > 
> >  Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is
> >  best avoided when burning to those media.
> 
> The last statement is good and the one I'd be inclined to go with, maybe
> qualifying "less" with "much".

See what you think on the wiki.

-- 

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#200735

On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 17:47:34 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > For the avoidance of any doubt, jmtd is me (Jonathan Michael Thomas
> > Dowland).
> 
> Thanks for sparing me the questionable deed to revert the change myself.
> So it is not a wiki war.

Why is it questionable? Either you stand behind your statement or not.
Of course, if you and StephenKeeling had been contactable via the wiki
a recourse to -user needn't have taken place. Not that it hasn't been
of interest.

-- 
Brian.

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