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A long rant on Debian 9

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  A long rant on Debian 9 John <jpff@codemist.co.uk> - 2018-05-06 23:20 +0200
    Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Forest Dean Feighner <forest.feighner@gmail.com> - 2018-05-06 23:40 +0200
    Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2018-05-07 00:20 +0200
      Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Dan Norton <dnorton@mindspring.com> - 2018-05-07 05:40 +0200
        Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-05-07 17:30 +0200
          Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-05-07 17:40 +0200
            Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Dan Norton <dnorton@mindspring.com> - 2018-05-07 23:50 +0200
              Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2018-05-08 00:10 +0200
                Re: A long rant on Debian 9 jpff <jpff@codemist.co.uk> - 2018-05-08 18:00 +0200
              Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9) Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2018-05-08 00:10 +0200
              Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2018-05-08 09:50 +0200
                Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Cindy-Sue Causey <butterflybytes@gmail.com> - 2018-05-08 14:00 +0200
                  Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-05-08 14:40 +0200
                    Re: A long rant on Debian 9 "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2018-05-08 16:00 +0200
                    Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Dan Norton <dnorton@mindspring.com> - 2018-05-08 21:00 +0200
              Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2018-05-08 16:00 +0200
                Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2018-05-08 16:10 +0200
      Re: A long rant on Debian 9 jpff <jpff@codemist.co.uk> - 2018-05-07 13:40 +0200
        Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-05-07 14:20 +0200
          Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> - 2018-05-07 16:50 +0200
          Re: A long rant on Debian 9 jpff <jpff@codemist.co.uk> - 2018-05-07 16:50 +0200
            Re: A long rant on Debian 9 bw <bwtnguy@yahoo.com> - 2018-05-07 17:10 +0200
            Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-05-07 18:00 +0200
        Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2018-05-07 14:30 +0200
        Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9) Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2018-05-07 16:50 +0200
          Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9) Dan Norton <dnorton@mindspring.com> - 2018-05-08 00:10 +0200
            Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-05-08 00:30 +0200
              Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9) Dan Norton <dnorton@mindspring.com> - 2018-05-08 00:40 +0200
                Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-05-08 01:20 +0200
                  Re: minimal installation Dan Norton <dnorton@mindspring.com> - 2018-05-12 23:50 +0200
                    Re: minimal installation Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2018-05-13 00:30 +0200
              Re: minimal installation Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2018-05-08 02:00 +0200
                Re: minimal installation Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-05-08 21:00 +0200
            Re: minimal installation Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2018-05-08 00:30 +0200
              Re: minimal installation Dan Norton <dnorton@mindspring.com> - 2018-05-08 01:40 +0200
    Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Rick Thomas <rbthomas@pobox.com> - 2018-05-07 01:10 +0200
    Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2018-05-07 15:10 +0200
      Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2018-05-07 15:40 +0200
      Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Richard Owlett <rowlett@cloud85.net> - 2018-05-07 16:00 +0200
        Re: A long rant on Debian 9 jpff <jpff@codemist.co.uk> - 2018-05-07 19:20 +0200
          Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-05-07 20:20 +0200
            Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Ric Moore <wayward4now@gmail.com> - 2018-05-07 22:40 +0200
            Re: A long rant on Debian 9 jpff <jpff@codemist.co.uk> - 2018-05-08 15:40 +0200
              Re: 3-button trackpoint configuration (was: A long rant on Debian 9) Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2018-05-08 16:10 +0200
              Re: A long rant on Debian 9 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2018-05-08 21:20 +0200

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#195432

>
>> And thank you all who pointed me at the non-free installer files.  I will
>> try that later today with luck
>>
>>

well, modified rapture1

i booted from the usb stick with the firmware .iso and tried an install. I 
accepted the licence for the firmware and proceeded to configure the wifi.

It asked for the ESSID offering me the correct one, and I said it was PSK. 
It then asked for the passphrase which I provided, and then into a loop 
which network?
which essid?
what passphrase?

until I got bored. So it still does not configure the wifi

So for want f a better idea I plugged in the wired network and just did a 
reboot.  Working from the tty on alt-f1 I tried to look at the network -- 
not sure what I did but I eventually noticed the wifi was working with the 
same ip  address as the wired.  Pulled the plug on ethernet and carried on 
trying to get a more reasonable software base.  Actually got xorg/xdm/fvwm 
all "working" with missing stuff on the menus, in particular xterm.  So 
tried to install it, and then I rebooted --- no wifi now an no idea how to 
fix.

Would ubuntu give me a stable base i wonder.  I do not seem to be getting 
anywhere yet.

==John ff

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#195434

On Mon, 7 May 2018, jpff wrote:

> 
> > 
> > > And thank you all who pointed me at the non-free installer files.  I will
> > > try that later today with luck
> > > 
> > > 
> 
> well, modified rapture1
> 
> i booted from the usb stick with the firmware .iso and tried an install. I
> accepted the licence for the firmware and proceeded to configure the wifi.
> 
> It asked for the ESSID offering me the correct one, and I said it was PSK. It
> then asked for the passphrase which I provided, and then into a loop which
> network?
> which essid?
> what passphrase?
> 
> until I got bored. So it still does not configure the wifi
> 
> So for want f a better idea I plugged in the wired network and just did a
> reboot.  Working from the tty on alt-f1 I tried to look at the network -- not
> sure what I did but I eventually noticed the wifi was working with the same ip
> address as the wired.  Pulled the plug on ethernet and carried on trying to
> get a more reasonable software base.  Actually got xorg/xdm/fvwm all "working"
> with missing stuff on the menus, in particular xterm.  So tried to install it,
> and then I rebooted --- no wifi now an no idea how to fix.
> 
> Would ubuntu give me a stable base i wonder.  I do not seem to be getting
> anywhere yet.
> 
> ==John ff
> 
> 

I think you should shop around different distros/installers if you want 
one that does all the configuration for you.

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#195439

On Mon 07 May 2018 at 15:46:12 +0100, jpff wrote:

> 
> > 
> > > And thank you all who pointed me at the non-free installer files.  I will
> > > try that later today with luck
> > > 
> > > 
> 
> well, modified rapture1
> 
> i booted from the usb stick with the firmware .iso and tried an install. I
> accepted the licence for the firmware and proceeded to configure the wifi.
> 
> It asked for the ESSID offering me the correct one, and I said it was PSK.
> It then asked for the passphrase which I provided, and then into a loop
> which network?
> which essid?
> what passphrase?

No idea on why this failed. I'd advise using a cabled connection when a
user has the choice.
 
> until I got bored. So it still does not configure the wifi
> 
> So for want f a better idea I plugged in the wired network and just did a
> reboot.  Working from the tty on alt-f1 I tried to look at the network --

Ah, you did. Good. There should be no need to reboot (but it does no
harm); just go back and do the network detection and configuring again.
Stop when it is done and from a tty check with 'ip a' that the link is
up and active. 'ping www.debian.org' should confirm.

> not sure what I did but I eventually noticed the wifi was working with the
> same ip  address as the wired.  Pulled the plug on ethernet and carried on

No idea here either. You continued with a wireless connection. Depending
on what you did later, you could be doomed not to have any connectivity
at first boot.

> trying to get a more reasonable software base.  Actually got xorg/xdm/fvwm
> all "working" with missing stuff on the menus, in particular xterm.  So
> tried to install it, and then I rebooted --- no wifi now an no idea how to
> fix.

This I do not understand. You got xorg/xdm/fvwm/xterm via the installer?
How?

> Would ubuntu give me a stable base i wonder.  I do not seem to be getting
> anywhere yet.

Ubuntu uses more or less the same installer as Debian.

-- 
Brian.


 
> ==John ff
> 

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#195407

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

When I use something like Debian 9 netinst, without a network, I use the
Command Line, through Text Console 1-6, accessible via Alt-F1 through
Alt-F6.

This is what I have been using (when needed) since I first encountered
Linux, in the early 1990's.

This is the original way of conversing with Linux, and makes an awesome
Emergency access, in case the Graphical Interface crashes.

Good luck!

Kenneth Parker

On Mon, May 7, 2018, 7:34 AM jpff <jpff@codemist.co.uk> wrote:

> That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem about no X,
> xdm, xterm etc.
>
> My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this.  I have not seen
> any mention of a kernel command line in the net install.  More please!
>
> And thank you all who pointed me at the non-free installer files.  I will
> try that later today with luck
>
>
> On Sun, 6 May 2018, Felix Miata wrote:
>
> > John composed on 2018-05-06 21:51 (UTC+0100):
> >
> >> How do I get a working computer?  I can ssh in from elsewhere but that
> >> is not what I need.  And I need wifi.
> >
> > My Debian installations are all net installs that include
> >
> >       tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false
> >
> > on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed that way.
> Xorg and
> > whatever else I need I get with apt* once booted normally.
> >
> > I don't use WiFi.
> > --
> > "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
> > get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)
> >
> > Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
> >
> > Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
> >
>
>

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#195433 — Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9)

jpff composed on 2018-05-07 12:34 (UTC+0100):

> Felix Miata wrote:

>> My Debian installations are all net installs that include

>> 	tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false

>> on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed that way. Xorg and
>> whatever else I need I get with apt* once booted normally.

> That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem about no X, 
> xdm, xterm etc.

> My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this.  I have not seen 
> any mention of a kernel command line in the net install.  More please!

I'm not up to speed on the conventional HOWTO for answering this. I rarely use
conventional installation boot media. Virtually all my installs are in multiboot
environments. This enables installation booting by using a bootloader already
present on the system, by loading an installation kernel and initrd, complete
with the parameters mentioned, plus several others, such as network
configuration, and leaving off quiet and splash=silent.

IME, virtually any distro's installation media when its presence first appears
on screen allows for some method of appending parameters to the kernel cmdline.
It may be an "e" key, or an ESC key, or an up or down arrow key, or a function
key, and likely will suggest how when its screen first paints.
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#195460 — Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9)

On Mon, 7 May 2018 10:42:17 -0400
Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:

> jpff composed on 2018-05-07 12:34 (UTC+0100):
> 
> > Felix Miata wrote:  
> 
> >> My Debian installations are all net installs that include  
> 
> >> 	tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false  
> 
> >> on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed that
> >> way. Xorg and whatever else I need I get with apt* once booted
> >> normally.  
> 
> > That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem about
> > no X, xdm, xterm etc.  
> 
> > My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this.  I have not
> > seen any mention of a kernel command line in the net install.  More
> > please!  
> 
> I'm not up to speed on the conventional HOWTO for answering this. I
> rarely use conventional installation boot media. Virtually all my
> installs are in multiboot environments. This enables installation
> booting by using a bootloader already present on the system, by
> loading an installation kernel and initrd, complete with the
> parameters mentioned, plus several others, such as network
> configuration, and leaving off quiet and splash=silent.
> 
> IME, virtually any distro's installation media when its presence
> first appears on screen allows for some method of appending
> parameters to the kernel cmdline. It may be an "e" key, or an ESC
> key, or an up or down arrow key, or a function key, and likely will
> suggest how when its screen first paints.

That "kernel cmdline" phrase is a point of confusion. By editing
the "Install" item in the netinst menu, I can change:

  linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- quiet

...to this, all on one line:

  linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- tasks=standard
  base-installer/install-recommends=false

Is that going to result in a minimum installation?

 - Dan

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#195464 — Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9)

On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:04:47 -0400, Dan Norton wrote:

> On Mon, 7 May 2018 10:42:17 -0400
> Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> > jpff composed on 2018-05-07 12:34 (UTC+0100):
> > 
> > > Felix Miata wrote:  
> > 
> > >> My Debian installations are all net installs that include  
> > 
> > >> 	tasks=standard base-installer/install-recommends=false  
> > 
> > >> on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed that
> > >> way. Xorg and whatever else I need I get with apt* once booted
> > >> normally.  
> > 
> > > That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem about
> > > no X, xdm, xterm etc.  
> > 
> > > My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this.  I have not
> > > seen any mention of a kernel command line in the net install.  More
> > > please!  
> > 
> > I'm not up to speed on the conventional HOWTO for answering this. I
> > rarely use conventional installation boot media. Virtually all my
> > installs are in multiboot environments. This enables installation
> > booting by using a bootloader already present on the system, by
> > loading an installation kernel and initrd, complete with the
> > parameters mentioned, plus several others, such as network
> > configuration, and leaving off quiet and splash=silent.
> > 
> > IME, virtually any distro's installation media when its presence
> > first appears on screen allows for some method of appending
> > parameters to the kernel cmdline. It may be an "e" key, or an ESC
> > key, or an up or down arrow key, or a function key, and likely will
> > suggest how when its screen first paints.
> 
> That "kernel cmdline" phrase is a point of confusion. By editing
> the "Install" item in the netinst menu, I can change:
> 
>   linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- quiet
> 
> ...to this, all on one line:
> 
>   linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- tasks=standard
>   base-installer/install-recommends=false
> 
> Is that going to result in a minimum installation?

Leave off tasks=standard for more minimalness.

(base-installer/install-recommends=false doesn't do anything. The base
system is always installed without Recommends:).

-- 
Brian.

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#195467 — Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9)

On Mon, 7 May 2018 23:22:46 +0100
Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:

> On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:04:47 -0400, Dan Norton wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 7 May 2018 10:42:17 -0400
> > Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >   
> > > jpff composed on 2018-05-07 12:34 (UTC+0100):
> > >   
> > > > Felix Miata wrote:    
> > >   
> > > >> My Debian installations are all net installs that include    
> > >   
> > > >> 	tasks=standard
> > > >> base-installer/install-recommends=false    
> > >   
> > > >> on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed
> > > >> that way. Xorg and whatever else I need I get with apt* once
> > > >> booted normally.    
> > >   
> > > > That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem
> > > > about no X, xdm, xterm etc.    
> > >   
> > > > My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this.  I have
> > > > not seen any mention of a kernel command line in the net
> > > > install.  More please!    
> > > 
> > > I'm not up to speed on the conventional HOWTO for answering this.
> > > I rarely use conventional installation boot media. Virtually all
> > > my installs are in multiboot environments. This enables
> > > installation booting by using a bootloader already present on the
> > > system, by loading an installation kernel and initrd, complete
> > > with the parameters mentioned, plus several others, such as
> > > network configuration, and leaving off quiet and splash=silent.
> > > 
> > > IME, virtually any distro's installation media when its presence
> > > first appears on screen allows for some method of appending
> > > parameters to the kernel cmdline. It may be an "e" key, or an ESC
> > > key, or an up or down arrow key, or a function key, and likely
> > > will suggest how when its screen first paints.  
> > 
> > That "kernel cmdline" phrase is a point of confusion. By editing
> > the "Install" item in the netinst menu, I can change:
> > 
> >   linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- quiet
> > 
> > ...to this, all on one line:
> > 
> >   linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- tasks=standard
> >   base-installer/install-recommends=false
> > 
> > Is that going to result in a minimum installation?  
> 
> Leave off tasks=standard for more minimalness.
> 

This is getting exciting. Will I still get a command line?

> (base-installer/install-recommends=false doesn't do anything. The base
> system is always installed without Recommends:).
> 

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#195468 — Re: minimal installation (was: A long rant on Debian 9)

On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:37:16 -0400, Dan Norton wrote:

> On Mon, 7 May 2018 23:22:46 +0100
> Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:04:47 -0400, Dan Norton wrote:
> > 
> > > On Mon, 7 May 2018 10:42:17 -0400
> > > Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >   
> > > > jpff composed on 2018-05-07 12:34 (UTC+0100):
> > > >   
> > > > > Felix Miata wrote:    
> > > >   
> > > > >> My Debian installations are all net installs that include    
> > > >   
> > > > >> 	tasks=standard
> > > > >> base-installer/install-recommends=false    
> > > >   
> > > > >> on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed
> > > > >> that way. Xorg and whatever else I need I get with apt* once
> > > > >> booted normally.    
> > > >   
> > > > > That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem
> > > > > about no X, xdm, xterm etc.    
> > > >   
> > > > > My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this.  I have
> > > > > not seen any mention of a kernel command line in the net
> > > > > install.  More please!    
> > > > 
> > > > I'm not up to speed on the conventional HOWTO for answering this.
> > > > I rarely use conventional installation boot media. Virtually all
> > > > my installs are in multiboot environments. This enables
> > > > installation booting by using a bootloader already present on the
> > > > system, by loading an installation kernel and initrd, complete
> > > > with the parameters mentioned, plus several others, such as
> > > > network configuration, and leaving off quiet and splash=silent.
> > > > 
> > > > IME, virtually any distro's installation media when its presence
> > > > first appears on screen allows for some method of appending
> > > > parameters to the kernel cmdline. It may be an "e" key, or an ESC
> > > > key, or an up or down arrow key, or a function key, and likely
> > > > will suggest how when its screen first paints.  
> > > 
> > > That "kernel cmdline" phrase is a point of confusion. By editing
> > > the "Install" item in the netinst menu, I can change:
> > > 
> > >   linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- quiet
> > > 
> > > ...to this, all on one line:
> > > 
> > >   linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- tasks=standard
> > >   base-installer/install-recommends=false
> > > 
> > > Is that going to result in a minimum installation?  
> > 
> > Leave off tasks=standard for more minimalness.
> > 
> 
> This is getting exciting. Will I still get a command line?

If you mean at first boot; yes.

I preseed in a file with "tasksel tasksel/first multiselect", which
means no task is selected for installation. I've never done it from
a prompt. Perhaps "tasks="?

-- 
Brian.

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#195665 — Re: minimal installation

On Tue, 8 May 2018 00:10:50 +0100
Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:

> On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:37:16 -0400, Dan Norton wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 7 May 2018 23:22:46 +0100
> > Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> wrote:
> >   
> > > On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:04:47 -0400, Dan Norton wrote:
> > >   
> > > > On Mon, 7 May 2018 10:42:17 -0400
> > > > Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > >     
> > > > > jpff composed on 2018-05-07 12:34 (UTC+0100):
> > > > >     
> > > > > > Felix Miata wrote:      
> > > > >     
> > > > > >> My Debian installations are all net installs that
> > > > > >> include      
> > > > >     
> > > > > >> 	tasks=standard
> > > > > >> base-installer/install-recommends=false      
> > > > >     
> > > > > >> on the kernel cmdline. I get nothing I don't need installed
> > > > > >> that way. Xorg and whatever else I need I get with apt*
> > > > > >> once booted normally.      
> > > > >     
> > > > > > That looks interesting; it attemts to answer my deep problem
> > > > > > about no X, xdm, xterm etc.      
> > > > >     
> > > > > > My problem nowis I do not know where/how to apply this.  I
> > > > > > have not seen any mention of a kernel command line in the
> > > > > > net install.  More please!      
> > > > > 
> > > > > I'm not up to speed on the conventional HOWTO for answering
> > > > > this. I rarely use conventional installation boot media.
> > > > > Virtually all my installs are in multiboot environments. This
> > > > > enables installation booting by using a bootloader already
> > > > > present on the system, by loading an installation kernel and
> > > > > initrd, complete with the parameters mentioned, plus several
> > > > > others, such as network configuration, and leaving off quiet
> > > > > and splash=silent.
> > > > > 
> > > > > IME, virtually any distro's installation media when its
> > > > > presence first appears on screen allows for some method of
> > > > > appending parameters to the kernel cmdline. It may be an "e"
> > > > > key, or an ESC key, or an up or down arrow key, or a function
> > > > > key, and likely will suggest how when its screen first
> > > > > paints.    
> > > > 
> > > > That "kernel cmdline" phrase is a point of confusion. By editing
> > > > the "Install" item in the netinst menu, I can change:
> > > > 
> > > >   linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- quiet
> > > > 
> > > > ...to this, all on one line:
> > > > 
> > > >   linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- tasks=standard
> > > >   base-installer/install-recommends=false
> > > > 
> > > > Is that going to result in a minimum installation?    
> > > 
> > > Leave off tasks=standard for more minimalness.
> > >   
> > 
> > This is getting exciting. Will I still get a command line?  
> 
> If you mean at first boot; yes.
> 
> I preseed in a file with "tasksel tasksel/first multiselect", which
> means no task is selected for installation. I've never done it from
> a prompt. Perhaps "tasks="?
> 

With the ethernet unplugged, installing with a netinst iso, I do get a
minimal installation. With ethernet plugged in, the installed kernel
can be booted repeatedly, presenting a login prompt each time. adduser,
mount, cat, lp... just work.

Now, I want to update and upgrade and start to slowly add packages, but
my network ignorance is getting in the way. 

Tried to run "/sbin/ifconfig -a" but ifconfig is not found. Anyway, ran:
  dhclient lo
  dhclient eth0
...with no effect (could not ping google)

Comparing files on this install with the same on this one (where I'm
writing this post):

/etc/network  # same contents on both after I added a link: 
    run -> /network
/etc/network/interfaces.d  # empty on both
/run/network  # same on both
/var/log/syslog  # doesn't show anything obvious to me

root@debm:/etc/network# cat interfaces
# This file describes...
# and how to ...

source /etc/network/interfaces.d/*

# The loopback network interface
auto lo
iface lo inet loopback

root@debm:/# /etc/init.d/networking stop
Stopping networking (via systemctl): networking.service.
root@debm:/# /etc/init.d/networking start
Starting networking (via systemctl): networking.service.
root@debm:/# ping -c 3 http://www.google.com
ping: http://www.google.com: Temporary failure in name resolution

Please point me to how to get ethernet up. Thanks.

 - Dan

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#195666 — Re: minimal installation

Dan Norton composed on 2018-05-12 17:47 (UTC-0400):

> Now, I want to update and upgrade and start to slowly add packages, but
> my network ignorance is getting in the way. 

> Tried to run "/sbin/ifconfig -a" but ifconfig is not found.

Deprecated over a decade ago, and finally dropped from basic installation. Use
its replacement ip instead.

> Please point me to how to get ethernet up. Thanks.

https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkConfiguration should do it.
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#195471 — Re: minimal installation

Brian composed on 2018-05-07 23:22 (UTC+0100):

> On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:04:47 -0400, Dan Norton wrote:

>> On Mon, 7 May 2018 10:42:17 -0400 Felix Miata wrote:

>>   linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- tasks=standard
>>   base-installer/install-recommends=false

>> Is that going to result in a minimum installation?

> Leave off tasks=standard for more minimalness.

NAICT without starting an installation now, including it causes at least one
installer question to be bypassed. I don't remember seeing asked whether or
which bootloader to install or where to install it in a long time, if ever, but
my memory today is noticeably short of 100%.

> (base-installer/install-recommends=false doesn't do anything. The base
> system is always installed without Recommends:).

Doing that,

	APT::Install-Recommends "false";

showed up in

	/etc/apt/apt.conf.d/00InstallRecommends

two minutes before

	/etc/apt/sources.list

on my last Stretch installation, and likely all the rest at least in recent years.
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#195505 — Re: minimal installation

On Mon 07 May 2018 at 19:53:51 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> Brian composed on 2018-05-07 23:22 (UTC+0100):
> 
> > On Mon 07 May 2018 at 18:04:47 -0400, Dan Norton wrote:
> 
> >> On Mon, 7 May 2018 10:42:17 -0400 Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> >>   linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- tasks=standard
> >>   base-installer/install-recommends=false
> 
> >> Is that going to result in a minimum installation?
> 
> > Leave off tasks=standard for more minimalness.
> 
> NAICT without starting an installation now, including it causes at least one
> installer question to be bypassed. I don't remember seeing asked whether or
> which bootloader to install or where to install it in a long time, if ever, but
> my memory today is noticeably short of 100%.

I guess you are talking about d-i's "Install" menu entry. With "tasks="
no tasks are installed and the bootloader questions are still asked. I
am not relying on memory.
 
> > (base-installer/install-recommends=false doesn't do anything. The base
> > system is always installed without Recommends:).
> 
> Doing that,
> 
> 	APT::Install-Recommends "false";
> 
> showed up in
> 
> 	/etc/apt/apt.conf.d/00InstallRecommends
> 
> two minutes before
> 
> 	/etc/apt/sources.list
> 
> on my last Stretch installation, and likely all the rest at least in recent years.

My point was that the base system packages doe not act on Recommends:.
If there are no tasks, the preseed option install-recommends=false has
nothing to do during the installation. What happens on the installed
system is a different matter.

-- 
Brian.

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#195466 — Re: minimal installation

Dan Norton composed on 2018-05-07 18:04 (UTC-0400):

> On Mon, 7 May 2018 10:42:17 -0400 Felix Miata  wrote:

>> IME, virtually any distro's installation media when its presence
>> first appears on screen allows for some method of appending
>> parameters to the kernel cmdline....

> That "kernel cmdline" phrase is a point of confusion.

It shouldn't be. The kernel cmdline is the starting element of every Linux boot.
The kernel may go by various names in different environments and distros, but
it's still the Linux kernel that originates from the kernel.org project whether
named linux or vmlinuz-numericalgobbledegook or some random string (here, every
most recently installed kernel prior to first use acquires two symlinks:
/boot/vmlinuz, and /boot/vmlinuz-cur).

> By editing
> the "Install" item in the netinst menu, I can change:

>   linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- quiet

> ...to this, all on one line:

>   linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- tasks=standard
>   base-installer/install-recommends=false

> Is that going to result in a minimum installation?

Other than the .amd part, it's what happens here. It should for you too. :-)

A n00b might rather leave off base-installer/install-recommends=false. I don't
think I've ever tried it that way. I'd be leery of something from Gnome getting
installed. ;-)
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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#195469 — Re: minimal installation

On Mon, 7 May 2018 18:24:04 -0400
Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Dan Norton composed on 2018-05-07 18:04 (UTC-0400):
> 
> > On Mon, 7 May 2018 10:42:17 -0400 Felix Miata  wrote:  
> 
> >> IME, virtually any distro's installation media when its presence
> >> first appears on screen allows for some method of appending
> >> parameters to the kernel cmdline....  
> 
> > That "kernel cmdline" phrase is a point of confusion.  
> 
> It shouldn't be. The kernel cmdline is the starting element of every
> Linux boot. The kernel may go by various names in different
> environments and distros, but it's still the Linux kernel that
> originates from the kernel.org project whether named linux or
> vmlinuz-numericalgobbledegook or some random string (here, every most
> recently installed kernel prior to first use acquires two
> symlinks: /boot/vmlinuz, and /boot/vmlinuz-cur).
> 
> > By editing
> > the "Install" item in the netinst menu, I can change:  
> 
> >   linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- quiet  
> 
> > ...to this, all on one line:  
> 
> >   linux   /install.amd/vmlinuz vga=788 --- tasks=standard
> >   base-installer/install-recommends=false  
> 
> > Is that going to result in a minimum installation?  
> 
> Other than the .amd part, it's what happens here. It should for you
> too. :-)
> 
> A n00b might rather leave off
> base-installer/install-recommends=false. I don't think I've ever
> tried it that way. I'd be leery of something from Gnome getting
> installed. ;-)

Yeah, that would be at cross purposes, wouldn't it?

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#195375

Hi John,

Take a look at the relevant section of the installation manual at:
    https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s04.html.en
and then download the unofficial non-free installer iso at:
    http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/

You can put the iso on a USB and install from there directly.  It already contains the missing firmware so you don’t need to mess with separate USBs and tarballs, etc.

Rick

On May 6, 2018, at 1:51 PM, John <jpff@codemist.co.uk> wrote:

> I have been a user of debian for many years on a number of computers
> as well as other GNU/Linux systems.  Recently I discovered that my
> i686 32bit machine was out of support and they were not supporting
> 32bit machines any longer.  After some bad experiences with Tumbleweed I
> decided that I would install stretch so I could get experience of it
> when I am forced to upgrade my firewall (running jessie with a whezzy
> kernel).
> 
> So today I d/loaded the net-install iso for debian 9.4 and wrote it to
> a usb stick. Then tried to install on the target (Thinkpad x40).
> Nice idea but it refused to use the wifi, so I proceeded via wired
> ethernet hoping I could resolve the issue later.  In the process I
> think I determined the wifi problem was the need for firmware for the
> Intel ipw2200 hardware.
> 
> After rather a long time it said it was installed so I rebooted -- a
> big mistake!  I was hoping for a computer where I could write
> programs, mainly with xterm, emacs (with elisp) and C.  I had asked
> for no gnome no kde no xfce...  I usually run fvwm on X but I got a
> screen with nothing obvious to do.  I did get icons (spit!) offering
> games and firefox but no xterm -- I was expecting to install emacs
> myself as I use a very recent system -- but it was in effect not a
> computer but some kind of toy. I do not play computer games and
> thought I had said not to install any
> 
> Since then I have failed to get wifi although I have got the firmware
> -- but no instructions on how to install.  Got aptitude installed and
> discovered load of gnome stuff cluttering up the disk (which is
> limited) and memory (ditto).
> 
> How do I get a working computer?  I can ssh in from elsewhere but that
> is not what I need.  And I need wifi.
> 
> I have never had this problem in 35 years on unix and linux, and am
> very disappointed.  I suppose I can install things like csh and
> possibly xdm, exim from source etc but without an xterm.....
> 
> I also noticed eventually that the duff screen came from tty2 rather
> that tty7 that I was expecting.
> 
> Sorry for the rant but I really was expecting simplicity as before.
> 
> ==John ffitch
> 

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#195411

On Sun, May 06, 2018 at 09:51:09PM +0100, John wrote:
> After rather a long time it said it was installed so I rebooted -- a
> big mistake!  I was hoping for a computer where I could write
> programs, mainly with xterm, emacs (with elisp) and C.  I had asked
> for no gnome no kde no xfce...  I usually run fvwm on X but I got a
> screen with nothing obvious to do.  I did get icons (spit!) offering
> games and firefox but no xterm -- I was expecting to install emacs
> myself as I use a very recent system -- but it was in effect not a
> computer but some kind of toy. I do not play computer games and
> thought I had said not to install any

It looks like other people have already covered the non-free firmware
issues.  So I'll just focus on this part.

I forget the exact wording, but at the end of the installation, there
is a tasksel dialog, in which you are presented with a list of "Tasks"
that can be installed (Web server, SSH server, Debian desktop environment,
and so on).

It sounds like you un-checked the specific desktop environments (KDE,
GNOME, XFCE, etc.) but left "Debian desktop environment" selected.
I honestly have no idea what happens in that case.  I always un-check
that one.  The only Tasks I select during the install are Standard, and
SSH server.

In that configuration, when you reboot, you get a text console login
prompt.  At that point, you can login and install the specific packages
you want.  In your case, I would start with:

  build-essential xorg fvwm xterm

That should get you quite close to what you described, minus the emacs
part, which I don't use and don't know how to install.  I'm hoping you
will know that part.

This list does not include a Display Manager, so you'll still login
on the console and need to type "startx" to get into X.  This is how
I use Debian, and also how many other people use Debian.  If you want
a graphical login, you can install a Display Manager package (possibly
lightdm or xdm).  But I'd wait until "startx" is known to work, just in
case you have issues with video drivers/firmware.  Having a DM installed
and trying to start X at boot time and FAILING is a situtation you don't
want to be in.  It's a whole lot easier to work on the problem if you
know you can boot to a console and login to fix things.

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#195417

wooledg@eeg.ccf.org wrote:
>
>It sounds like you un-checked the specific desktop environments (KDE,
>GNOME, XFCE, etc.) but left "Debian desktop environment" selected.
>I honestly have no idea what happens in that case.  I always un-check
>that one.  The only Tasks I select during the install are Standard, and
>SSH server.

The desktop task setup in tasksel is defined by the Recommends:
defined by the task-desktop task package (aka "Debian desktop
environment"). 

tack:~$ apt-cache show task-desktop  | grep Recommends
Recommends: task-gnome-desktop | task-xfce-desktop | task-kde-desktop | task-lxde-desktop | task-cinnamon-desktop | task-mate-desktop | task-lxqt-desktop, xdg-utils, avahi-daemon, libnss-mdns, anacron, eject, iw, alsa-utils

So, if you leave the "Debian desktop environment" enabled in tasksel,
then *any* of the (gnome,xfce,kde,lxde,cinnamon,mate) desktop task
packages will satisfy its recommendation. If you select it alongside
any of those desktop task packages it will therefore have very little
effect. However, if you select it alone *with no specific desktop
chosen* then it will default to the first in that list: gnome.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve@einval.com
"Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out
 whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast."
 Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html

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#195421

On 05/07/2018 08:07 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> [snip]> 
> It sounds like you un-checked the specific desktop environments (KDE,
> GNOME, XFCE, etc.) but left "Debian desktop environment" selected.
> I honestly have no idea what happens in that case.  I always un-check
> that one.  The only Tasks I select during the install are Standard, and
> SSH server.
>

It upchucks Gnome3 on the innocent user.
I'm very happy with MATE.

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#195442

Things are getting better if not quite right.  I have a lean x/fvwm system 
installed and I have managed to get an xterm displayed.  The major issues 
I have left outstanding are

1:  The X40 has a three-mbutton trackpoint but while button 1 works, 
button 2 has no affect and button 3 does what button 2 should do.  Not 
seen that before and not sure where to look.


2:  Still no wifi.  iwconfig allows me to set key and essid etc but ifup 
says it has not heard about wlp2s2 which is the name "ip link" gives. 
Sometimes the wifi is active judging from the flashing of the lights but 
no connection.  I am used to using ifconfig/iwconfig on other machines.


3:  My wifi is WPA-PSK (I think version 2).  Is teresoe package I eed for 
this?  Just realised that I have never used wifi on debian boxes....


And again thank you all for your advice and comments. It is getting 
better.

==John ff

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