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Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

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  Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Borden Rhodes <jrvp@bordenrhodes.com> - 2017-08-21 22:30 +0200
    Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-08-21 22:50 +0200
    Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch tony mollica <tjm3@threedogs.net> - 2017-08-22 01:00 +0200
      Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch tony mollica <tjm3@threedogs.net> - 2017-09-06 18:20 +0200
        Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-09-06 18:40 +0200
          Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-09-06 20:40 +0200
            Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-09-06 22:00 +0200
              Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-09-11 23:30 +0200
                Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-09-12 09:40 +0200
                  Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-09-13 16:50 +0200
                Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-09-15 10:30 +0200
                  Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-09-15 17:40 +0200
                    Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Jimmy Johnson <field.engineer@gmail.com> - 2017-09-15 20:10 +0200
        Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-09-06 21:00 +0200
        Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Mark Fletcher <mark27q1@gmail.com> - 2017-09-07 01:00 +0200
          Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-09-07 14:20 +0200
            Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch tony mollica <tjm3@threedogs.net> - 2017-09-07 17:20 +0200
            Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Mark Fletcher <mark27q1@gmail.com> - 2017-09-08 01:00 +0200
    Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Ben Finney <bignose@debian.org> - 2017-08-22 03:10 +0200
      Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch Gary Roach <gary719_list1@verizon.net> - 2017-09-07 01:30 +0200

#185669 — Re: Debian v9 it's a stretch

Hey Tony,

I had lots of problems with Stretch when it was in testing. A lot of
packages (KDE, X drivers, and the kernel come immediately to mind)
have manageable but irritating upstream regressions that didn't get
patched or backported in time for the release.

I was very surprised when they released Stretch as I didn't find
anything 'stable' about the packages that I was using. Therefore, I've
stayed on the testing branch where many of the problems are slowly
getting fixed.

In terms of stability, I think Debian is one of the better distros
you'll get. Other distros achieve greater stability but suffer from
MacOS syndrome: the distro works only if you stick to the limited set
of features explicitly designed into the distro. There are
fixed-release-cycle distros like Ubuntu that seem to be perpetually
broken - you report a bug in a release and get told it'll be fixed in
the next release six months from now. Assuming that it's fixed in the
next release, you have a whole new set of bugs to deal with, and the
cycle continues.

In my 13 years of Linux experience, I keep coming back to Debian. It's
not perfect, but it hasn't ruined my life... yet.

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#185671

Borden Rhodes <jrvp@bordenrhodes.com> writes:

> I had lots of problems with Stretch when it was in testing.

Thank you for running the ‘testing’ suite. The problems you encountered
are an important part of having people run that suite; you can then
report those problems in the Debian bug tracking system, so that the
package maintainers have enough information to correct the package
*before* release.

What response did you get to the bug reports you filed from the problems
you encountered?

> I was very surprised when they released Stretch

The release managers will use the Debian BTS to determine whether
packages should remain in Debian for the release.

Did the bug reports you made get addressed? Which packages still had
Debian bug reports unresolved when Stretch was released?

-- 
 \       “Whenever you read a good book, it's like the author is right |
  `\   there, in the room talking to you, which is why I don't like to |
_o__)                                   read good books.” —Jack Handey |
Ben Finney

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#185674

Thanks for the replies.  I'll maybe try another clean install and see 
what happens.



On 08/21/2017 01:06 PM, Borden Rhodes wrote:
> Hey Tony,
> 
> I had lots of problems with Stretch when it was in testing. A lot of
> packages (KDE, X drivers, and the kernel come immediately to mind)
> have manageable but irritating upstream regressions that didn't get
> patched or backported in time for the release.
> 
> I was very surprised when they released Stretch as I didn't find
> anything 'stable' about the packages that I was using. Therefore, I've
> stayed on the testing branch where many of the problems are slowly
> getting fixed.
> 
> In terms of stability, I think Debian is one of the better distros
> you'll get. Other distros achieve greater stability but suffer from
> MacOS syndrome: the distro works only if you stick to the limited set
> of features explicitly designed into the distro. There are
> fixed-release-cycle distros like Ubuntu that seem to be perpetually
> broken - you report a bug in a release and get told it'll be fixed in
> the next release six months from now. Assuming that it's fixed in the
> next release, you have a whole new set of bugs to deal with, and the
> cycle continues.
> 
> In my 13 years of Linux experience, I keep coming back to Debian. It's
> not perfect, but it hasn't ruined my life... yet.
> 
> 

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#186517

It's time.  Can't stand it any longer so Jessie to get reinstalled.

This fresh install of Stretch has given me network problems, slow 
display to the point of having to wait for a mouse click or wheel 
movement to take effect along with some other less important changes 
that needed to be disabled, bypassed or otherwise massaged to work. 
Comparatively, Jessie was blazingly fast and problem free on the exact 
same hardware and I don't find any indications of what's holding up the 
show.  Everything just runs slower.  I've been using Debian since Hamm 
and never had issues like this.  Up to this point every release has been 
an improvement.
Stepping back.

tjm

On 08/21/2017 03:53 PM, tony mollica wrote:
> Thanks for the replies.  I'll maybe try another clean install and see 
> what happens.
> 
> 
> 
> On 08/21/2017 01:06 PM, Borden Rhodes wrote:
>> Hey Tony,
>>
>> I had lots of problems with Stretch when it was in testing. A lot of
>> packages (KDE, X drivers, and the kernel come immediately to mind)
>> have manageable but irritating upstream regressions that didn't get
>> patched or backported in time for the release.
>>
>> I was very surprised when they released Stretch as I didn't find
>> anything 'stable' about the packages that I was using. Therefore, I've
>> stayed on the testing branch where many of the problems are slowly
>> getting fixed.
>>
>> In terms of stability, I think Debian is one of the better distros
>> you'll get. Other distros achieve greater stability but suffer from
>> MacOS syndrome: the distro works only if you stick to the limited set
>> of features explicitly designed into the distro. There are
>> fixed-release-cycle distros like Ubuntu that seem to be perpetually
>> broken - you report a bug in a release and get told it'll be fixed in
>> the next release six months from now. Assuming that it's fixed in the
>> next release, you have a whole new set of bugs to deal with, and the
>> cycle continues.
>>
>> In my 13 years of Linux experience, I keep coming back to Debian. It's
>> not perfect, but it hasn't ruined my life... yet.
>>
>>
> 
> 

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#186521

On Wed, Sep 06, 2017 at 09:18:04AM -0700, tony mollica wrote:
> This fresh install of Stretch has given me network problems, slow display to
> the point of having to wait for a mouse click or wheel movement to take
> effect [...]

Sounds like video drivers and firmware, again.

The Linux kernel philosophy (modesetting) seems to be directly at odds
with the Debian philosophy (don't ship non-free firmware by default).

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#186529

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

-  Hello,
Is this the Chevrolet users' support group?
I just bought this new Chevy and I am having all kinds of problems I've never had before with a Chevy or any other car for that matter.
-  What problems are you having, because all other owners are happy.
-  Pretty much anything I was used to do is not working or ends up in an error.
-  Are you sure it is a Chevy and not an immitation?
-  Yes I am sure, it is the all new Chevy Corvair, I was told it is the world's safest car at any speed, even parked in the garage.
-  But you haven't mentioned what problem you are having.
-  Well, for one, when I hit the brakes hard I end up looking face to face with the truck that was half a mile behind me.
-  What brake pads did you install?
-  I didn't change any brake pads, it is new I tell you!
-  Well, that's why, you haven't changed the pads.
-  What about going around a fast corner and the car steers all by itself?
-  You shouldn't be going so fast around a bumpy corner.
-  When I hit the gas on the rain the car keeps going straight, even with the wheel turned.
-  Why are you hitting the gas with the wheel turned, you should only use it when going straight.
-  That's OK, I'll trade it in for a Ford, I hear people dying in these Corvairs.

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#186533

On Wed 06 Sep 2017 at 14:29:35 -0400, Fungi4All wrote:

> -  Hello,
> Is this the Chevrolet users' support group?
> I just bought this new Chevy and I am having all kinds of problems I've never had before with a Chevy or any other car for that matter.
> -  What problems are you having, because all other owners are happy.
> -  Pretty much anything I was used to do is not working or ends up in an error.
> -  Are you sure it is a Chevy and not an immitation?
> -  Yes I am sure, it is the all new Chevy Corvair, I was told it is the world's safest car at any speed, even parked in the garage.
> -  But you haven't mentioned what problem you are having.
> -  Well, for one, when I hit the brakes hard I end up looking face to face with the truck that was half a mile behind me.
> -  What brake pads did you install?
> -  I didn't change any brake pads, it is new I tell you!
> -  Well, that's why, you haven't changed the pads.
> -  What about going around a fast corner and the car steers all by itself?
> -  You shouldn't be going so fast around a bumpy corner.
> -  When I hit the gas on the rain the car keeps going straight, even with the wheel turned.
> -  Why are you hitting the gas with the wheel turned, you should only use it when going straight.
> -  That's OK, I'll trade it in for a Ford, I hear people dying in these Corvairs.

You have gone to a lot of trouble to type this. We appreciate it.

Does it answer anything.

Is Chevrolet an OS (Operating System)?

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#186688

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

> From: ad44@cityscape.co.uk
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>
> On Wed 06 Sep 2017 at 14:29:35 -0400, Fungi4All wrote:
>
>> - Hello,
>> Is this the Chevrolet users" support group?
>> I just bought this new Chevy and I am having all kinds of problems I"ve never had before with a Chevy or any other car for that matter.
>> - What problems are you having, because all other owners are happy.
>> - Pretty much anything I was used to do is not working or ends up in an error.
>> - Are you sure it is a Chevy and not an immitation?
>> - Yes I am sure, it is the all new Chevy Corvair, I was told it is the world"s safest car at any speed, even parked in the garage.
>> - But you haven"t mentioned what problem you are having.
>> - Well, for one, when I hit the brakes hard I end up looking face to face with the truck that was half a mile behind me.
>> - What brake pads did you install?
>> - I didn"t change any brake pads, it is new I tell you!
>> - Well, that"s why, you haven"t changed the pads.
>> - What about going around a fast corner and the car steers all by itself?
>> - You shouldn"t be going so fast around a bumpy corner.
>> - When I hit the gas on the rain the car keeps going straight, even with the wheel turned.
>> - Why are you hitting the gas with the wheel turned, you should only use it when going straight.
>> - That"s OK, I"ll trade it in for a Ford, I hear people dying in these Corvairs.
>
> You have gone to a lot of trouble to type this. We appreciate it.
> Does it answer anything.
> Is Chevrolet an OS (Operating System)?

No, but there are similarities.
They are both systems, one is for transportation the other for communication,
which are relatives to each other.  The one developed to relieve the pain of the first.

They are both vehicles.  The later was used for systemd to dominate an industry.

They are/were marketed to the wrong market.  The corvair was not a bad car,
just wasn't meant for people who didn't understand it as being different.  It
was like a Karman-Ghia but with deadlier potential.  And that wasn't presented as
a warning at the time of marriage.  If you don't know what you are doing you should
either leave everything else you are doing in life and learn or you are going to crash.
Debian too, is developing with the market of enterprise in its secret mind, but allowed
people to believe that it is a system for single user personal computing.  WRONG!

The customer support (this list/or the Chevy sales dept) have the same nasty
attitude.  Every time the customer complains of something the "experts" instead
of trying to see what the problem really is they are trying to locate unique
individual excuses of what the customer did wrong with their fine product.
At least the ones that survived to ask a question get this treatment.

Whether you have a new pc or an old pc it makes no difference.
"It is unsafe at any speed"

Now do you see the resemblance?

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#186697

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 05:27:05PM -0400, Fungi4All wrote:

[...]

> The customer support (this list/or the Chevy sales dept) have the same nasty
> attitude.  Every time the customer complains of something the "experts" instead
> of trying to see [...]

Then become an expert yourself. You're getting the same welcome package
and a handsome weekly check of $ 0, as we all are getting. No trial period.

You're hired, *NOW*

> Now do you see the resemblance?

Hmmm.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAlm3jmYACgkQBcgs9XrR2kYHawCeKJXqUvycY1+SeVCeSHKltv4v
WLoAni9xnZAKkiFGUqKgj76xGbTUi29+
=lunu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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#186744

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

> From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> You"re getting the same welcome package
> and a handsome weekly check of $ 0, as we all are getting. No trial period.

I like to see the fine print, of what I can and can not say.

> You"re hired, *NOW*

Who!  Who is hiring?

>> Now do you see the resemblance?
>
> Hmmm.

The Chevy salesman has known and specific interests to protect
defending the choice to put a half ton engine behind the rear axle.
With debian I can only suspect by logical deduction why would
systemd me so ferociously defended, by hired experts.
I guess I would have to get hired to explain it to myself.

PS  To Dell, HP, Toshiba, ..etc:  Please send a personal note
so I can forward you the shipping address for evaluating new
server models and my consulting fee schedule for installing your
systems.  No, I will not use Gentoo, don't worry!

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#186836

On 09/11/2017 02:27 PM, Fungi4All wrote:
>> From: ad44@cityscape.co.uk
>> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org

>> You have gone to a lot of trouble to type this. We appreciate it.
>> Does it answer anything.
>> Is Chevrolet an OS (Operating System)?
> 
> No, but there are similarities.
> They are both systems, one is for transportation the other for communication..

> Now do you see the resemblance?


My, you are a throwback from UseNet aren't you?  You know many of those 
people are crazy don't you?  Even to the point of committing suicide 
while online..I could no longer read that stuff, please don't bring it here.

Thanks,
-- 
Jimmy Johnson

Ubuntu 14.04 LTS - KDE 4.13.2 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda1
Registered Linux User #380263

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#186857

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

> From: field.engineer@gmail.com
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>
> On 09/11/2017 02:27 PM, Fungi4All wrote:
>>> From: ad44@cityscape.co.uk
>>> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>
>>> You have gone to a lot of trouble to type this. We appreciate it.
>>> Does it answer anything.
>>> Is Chevrolet an OS (Operating System)?
>>
>> No, but there are similarities.
>> They are both systems, one is for transportation the other for communication..
>
>> Now do you see the resemblance?
>
> My, you are a throwback from UseNet aren"t you? You know many of those
> people are crazy don"t you? Even to the point of committing suicide
> while online..I could no longer read that stuff, please don"t bring it here.

I can hardly make sense of what you mean and to whom you are talking to.
If my criticism on the motives to defend systemd after all the revelations about it
could drive crazy people to commit suicide, imagine if they designed bio-warfare
weapons.  At least the later admit on getting paid by "someone".

> Jimmy Johnson

What is your relationship to Debian, and why are you here again?

> Ubuntu 14.04 LTS - KDE 4.13.2 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda1
> Registered Linux User #380263

Maybe if I had 6 more cores my Debian wouldn't take for ever to start
and shutdown.  Do you think I should run ubuntu?  Give us a break!

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#186864

On 09/15/2017 08:31 AM, Fungi4All wrote:
>> From: field.engineer@gmail.com
>> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>>
>> On 09/11/2017 02:27 PM, Fungi4All wrote:
>>>> From: ad44@cityscape.co.uk
>>>> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>>
>>>> You have gone to a lot of trouble to type this. We appreciate it.
>>>> Does it answer anything.
>>>> Is Chevrolet an OS (Operating System)?
>>>
>>> No, but there are similarities.
>>> They are both systems, one is for transportation the other for communication..
>>
>>> Now do you see the resemblance?
>>
>> My, you are a throwback from UseNet aren"t you? You know many of those
>> people are crazy don"t you? Even to the point of committing suicide
>> while online..I could no longer read that stuff, please don"t bring it here.
> 
> I can hardly make sense of what you mean and to whom you are talking to.
> If my criticism on the motives to defend systemd after all the revelations about it
> could drive crazy people to commit suicide, imagine if they designed bio-warfare
> weapons.  At least the later admit on getting paid by "someone".
> 
>> Jimmy Johnson
> 
> What is your relationship to Debian, and why are you here again?
> 
>> Ubuntu 14.04 LTS - KDE 4.13.2 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda1
>> Registered Linux User #380263
> 
> Maybe if I had 6 more cores my Debian wouldn't take for ever to start
> and shutdown.  Do you think I should run ubuntu?  Give us a break!


Sorry but it seems you are already broken and I can not help you plus 
this is not our first conversation and you know I'm on list, so please 
don't send post directly to me.

Thank you,
-- 
Jimmy Johnson
What ever Linux Operating System I want to Run..
Ubuntu 14.04 LTS - KDE 4.13.2 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda1
Registered Linux User #380263

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#186530

tony mollica <tjm3@threedogs.net> writes:

> This fresh install of Stretch has given me network problems, slow
> display to the point of having to wait for a mouse click or wheel
> movement to take effect along with some other less important changes
> that needed to be disabled, bypassed or otherwise massaged to work.

Which are the bug reports in the Debian BTS that describe these problems
specifically?

Since you're able to describe them, presumably you want them to be
investigated and fixed.

> Comparatively, Jessie was blazingly fast and problem free on the exact
> same hardware and I don't find any indications of what's holding up
> the show.

To allow the maintainers of the specific Debian packages that you find
to be slow, to investigate the problem to find the fault, you (as the
only person with first-hand experience of these particular problems)
need to describe the specifics in bug reports to the Debian BTS.

-- 
 \     “Try to become not a man of success, but try rather to become a |
  `\                                   man of value.” —Albert Einstein |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#186536

On Wed, Sep 06, 2017 at 09:18:04AM -0700, tony mollica wrote:
> It's time.  Can't stand it any longer so Jessie to get reinstalled.
> 
> This fresh install of Stretch has given me network problems, slow display to
> the point of having to wait for a mouse click or wheel movement to take
> effect along with some other less important changes that needed to be
> disabled, bypassed or otherwise massaged to work. Comparatively, Jessie was
> blazingly fast and problem free on the exact same hardware and I don't find
> any indications of what's holding up the show.  Everything just runs slower.
> I've been using Debian since Hamm and never had issues like this.  Up to
> this point every release has been an improvement.
> Stepping back.
> 

That's fascinating because I found the opposite -- my circa-2009 
self-built Intel Core i7 920-based machine surged ahead when I upgraded 
from jessie to stretch -- really felt like everything was that little 
bit more alive. I'd had no complaints about jessie performance but 
suddenly everything was that bit nippier.

I use Gnome if that is anything to do with anything. I also have a 
decent loadout of RAM -- 24GB -- and I have no metrics of how much 
memory OS is using for example, between jessie and stretch. Perhaps that 
is a factor.

This installation, when it was jessie, was itself an upgrade from 
wheezy, so not a particularly clean install. I've been a Debian user 
since 1995, I built this machine in 2009 and installed whichever came 
first of etch and squeeze on it. When wheezy was testing, I did a 
re-install, possibly after a disk failure following the 2011 Great Kanto 
Earthquake which one of my hard disks didn't enjoy, and then wheezy got 
upgraded to jessie when jessie was testing, then I sat on jessie until 
stretch became stable.

Sure I had some small issues with the upgrade, but in general they were 
relatively minor compared to the "good old days" and as I say, 
performance over here is great.

That probably doesn't help you much, but let the record show that 
stretch does work great for at least some people...

Mark

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#186558

On Thu, Sep 07, 2017 at 07:57:58AM +0900, Mark Fletcher wrote:
> That's fascinating because I found the opposite -- my circa-2009 
> self-built Intel Core i7 920-based machine surged ahead when I upgraded 
> from jessie to stretch -- really felt like everything was that little 
> bit more alive. I'd had no complaints about jessie performance but 
> suddenly everything was that bit nippier.

Video drivers, most likely.  Jessie's X used an "intel" driver for
Intel graphics chipsets, whereas stretch's X uses a "modeset" driver.

Notoriously in jessie, some of the newer Intel chipsets actually needed
(or greatly wanted) a backported stretch xserver-xorg-video-intel
package for proper performance.  (Your older machine may or may not be
one of these.)

Some older Intel chipsets perform very well under the new modeset driver
without adding any firmware packages.  I am guessing yours is one
of these.

Some newer Intel chipsets perform very well after you install the
correct non-free firmware package for them.  Without that firmware,
they will perform very poorly, to the point where you might actually
consider reverting to the intel driver, if your personal philosophy
is not to install non-free firmware.

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#186566

When I started this particular thread I was just interested in whether 
or not anyone else was experiencing similar performance issues, video, 
network or otherwise.  The answer is clearly, yes.

I like the rather long winded, not-really-to-the-point Chevrolet 
comparison.  Especially since I'm a certified Master Automotive Tech and 
the Chevy problem would have been fixed, if not re-engineered, to 
anyone's satisfaction in short order.  But as was mentioned, we're not 
working on Chevies.

I can browse through the logs on occasion looking for problems or 
inconsistencies and so far found none that match up with odd and 
annoying performance or configuration issues.  I'm also not a developer 
and have limited time to do this sort of stuff.  I've always used Debian 
(from Hamm) and never had issues that I couldn't resolve, until Stretch, 
and thought it was worth mentioning.  Maybe I posted incorrectly. 
Should've gone in the Let's Kill the Messenger thread.

> 
> Video drivers, most likely.  Jessie's X used an "intel" driver for
> Intel graphics chipsets, whereas stretch's X uses a "modeset" driver.
> 

Video, maybe, probably.  I've always used the proprietary drivers 
(Nvidia) thinking that the company engineers probably have better info 
to do so than others writing code with half the information.  Nvidia 
drivers have alway operated flawlessly for me.  Why not now?

tjm

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#186591

On Thu, Sep 07, 2017 at 08:12:21AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 07, 2017 at 07:57:58AM +0900, Mark Fletcher wrote:
> > That's fascinating because I found the opposite -- my circa-2009 
> > self-built Intel Core i7 920-based machine surged ahead when I upgraded 
> > from jessie to stretch -- really felt like everything was that little 
> > bit more alive. I'd had no complaints about jessie performance but 
> > suddenly everything was that bit nippier.
> 
> Video drivers, most likely.  Jessie's X used an "intel" driver for
> Intel graphics chipsets, whereas stretch's X uses a "modeset" driver.
> 
> Notoriously in jessie, some of the newer Intel chipsets actually needed
> (or greatly wanted) a backported stretch xserver-xorg-video-intel
> package for proper performance.  (Your older machine may or may not be
> one of these.)
> 

Did wonder about video drivers -- but the video hardware is nVidia here 
and the driver in use was and is the proprietary nVidia driver. Albeit 
now the "legacy" one, as the card is old -- the transition to which 
briefly gave me the willies when I migrated from jessie to stretch; a 
while back I made a thread here about that, all long since sorted out 
now.

I famously have never been able to get the nouveau drivers working at 
all. A looong time ago, there was a period where the nVidia proprietary 
driver was not very stable with my chipset, or at least the combination 
of the nVidia driver and Gnome 3 was toxic, and I tried nouveau then 
with no success. I tried again a bit later as an experiment to see if I 
could get away from proprietary code -- no dice. I gave up at that point 
as by then the nVidia driver was both faster and stable. Since then, 
touch wood, it has been solid and performant.

I reckon you are right that the improvement I saw is most likely to come 
from video driver improvements somehow, but that means an improvement 
between the nVidia driver version in Jessie and the legacy video driver 
version in stretch.

Anyway whatever it is, that's not going to stop me giving Debian in 
general credit for the improvement! Me like!

Mark

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#185676

Borden Rhodes <jrvp@bordenrhodes.com> writes:

> I was very surprised when they released Stretch as I didn't find
> anything 'stable' about the packages that I was using.

My reply was primarily addressing that statement: you were surprised
that Stretch, with the problems you describe, was released.


Borden Rhodes <jrvp@bordenrhodes.com> writes:

> Thank you for your response, Ben,
>
> > What response did you get to the bug reports you filed from the
> > problems you encountered?
>
> One example includes an X regression […] To my knowledge, it's still
> broken in testing […] (#863532).

Thanks. Do you have an understanding, from that discussion, why that
specific bug remained unresolved in Stretch?


> Then there are the issues with the upgrade to KDE 5, which aren't
> Debian's fault […] These are all upstream bugs that I've tried to
> report.

Are there bug reports in Debian that would show why the package should
not be released with those bugs?

> Ironically, both reportbug and reportbug-ng are broken on my system!
> The former's GTK interface doesn't load

Sorry to learn that. Does the text-only interface work well enough to
report bugs?

> I also ran into an issue […] I just uninstalled them and continued on.

I think you can see from that, why the Debian release team can't be
expected to know that a package is unsuitable for release, if people's
experience with a bug are not recorded in a bug report :-)

-- 
 \       “A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of |
  `\                                           widths.” —Steven Wright |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#186538

On 08/21/2017 06:00 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> Borden Rhodes <jrvp@bordenrhodes.com> writes:
Interesting. I have 3 machines running Stretch. I originally went from
Wheezy stable to Stretch Testing and let Stretch slide back into stable.
I have had absolutely no problems with stability or speed. Although I do 
find that there are certain packages that are missing from Stretch.


>> I was very surprised when they released Stretch as I didn't find
>> anything 'stable' about the packages that I was using.
>
> My reply was primarily addressing that statement: you were surprised
> that Stretch, with the problems you describe, was released.
>
>
> Borden Rhodes <jrvp@bordenrhodes.com> writes:
>
>> Thank you for your response, Ben,
>>
>>> What response did you get to the bug reports you filed from the
>>> problems you encountered?
>>
>> One example includes an X regression […] To my knowledge, it's still
>> broken in testing […] (#863532).
>
> Thanks. Do you have an understanding, from that discussion, why that
> specific bug remained unresolved in Stretch?
>
>
>> Then there are the issues with the upgrade to KDE 5, which aren't
>> Debian's fault […] These are all upstream bugs that I've tried to
>> report.
>
> Are there bug reports in Debian that would show why the package should
> not be released with those bugs?
>
>> Ironically, both reportbug and reportbug-ng are broken on my system!
>> The former's GTK interface doesn't load
>
> Sorry to learn that. Does the text-only interface work well enough to
> report bugs?
>
>> I also ran into an issue […] I just uninstalled them and continued on.
>
> I think you can see from that, why the Debian release team can't be
> expected to know that a package is unsuitable for release, if people's
> experience with a bug are not recorded in a bug report :-)
>

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