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Groups > linux.debian.user > #185161 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-08-14 11:50 +0200 |
| Last post | 2017-08-19 10:40 +0200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 144 — 27 participants |
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no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 11:50 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-14 13:00 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 13:10 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-14 13:40 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 13:50 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-14 18:10 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Joel Rees <joel.rees@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 23:20 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-08-14 14:00 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 15:00 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-14 15:30 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-08-14 15:50 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 16:00 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2017-08-14 16:10 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 16:30 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2017-08-14 16:40 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 18:30 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2017-08-14 16:30 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-08-14 17:30 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2017-08-14 18:20 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 19:10 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 12:10 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-19 22:10 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Joe <joe@jretrading.com> - 2017-08-19 23:00 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2017-08-14 16:30 +0200
No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-15 12:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-15 14:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-15 15:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 15:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-15 15:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-15 16:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Darac Marjal <mailinglist@darac.org.uk> - 2017-08-15 16:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-15 16:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 18:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-15 19:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 19:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 20:30 +0200
Re: Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Clive Standbridge <list-user@tgstandbridges.plus.com> - 2017-08-16 10:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-16 11:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-08-16 12:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-16 14:30 +0200
Re: Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Clive Standbridge <list-user@tgstandbridges.plus.com> - 2017-08-16 16:20 +0200
Re: Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-08-16 16:40 +0200
Re: Re: Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Clive Standbridge <list-user@tgstandbridges.plus.com> - 2017-08-16 17:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 18:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 19:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 19:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 20:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 21:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 22:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-15 22:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-16 04:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-15 19:50 +0200
No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 09:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-15 15:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Dejan Jocic <jodejka@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 16:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-15 17:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 19:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 20:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 21:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 21:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-16 04:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-15 20:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 21:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-08-15 16:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2017-08-15 16:40 +0200
No ifconfig Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 10:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> - 2017-08-19 14:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 17:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Glenn English <ghe2001@gmail.com> - 2017-08-15 18:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 10:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-19 11:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 15:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-19 15:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-19 16:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-19 16:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-19 16:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-19 17:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 20:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-19 21:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 21:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-19 21:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 21:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Liam O'Toole <liam.p.otoole@gmail.com> - 2017-08-20 02:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2017-08-19 16:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@debian.org> - 2017-08-20 12:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Fungi4All <fungilife@protonmail.com> - 2017-08-21 15:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 16:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-19 19:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-20 14:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2017-08-20 14:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-20 17:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-21 05:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 06:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Zenaan Harkness <zenaan@freedbms.net> - 2017-08-19 23:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Liam O'Toole <liam.p.otoole@gmail.com> - 2017-08-20 02:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Erik Christiansen <dvalin@internode.on.net> - 2017-08-20 14:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-21 07:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-21 15:00 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-21 15:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 17:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-21 18:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 19:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-21 19:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 19:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-21 20:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 21:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Christian Seiler <christian@iwakd.de> - 2017-08-22 17:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Sven Hartge <sven@svenhartge.de> - 2017-08-22 17:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Eike Lantzsch <zp6cge@gmx.net> - 2017-08-21 17:30 +0200
No ifconfig Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 10:40 +0200
No ifconfig Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 10:20 +0200
Re: No ifconfig Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2017-08-21 17:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 19:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 19:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 20:10 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 20:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 21:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-16 03:40 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 21:30 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-16 03:50 +0200
Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2017-08-16 06:40 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-14 21:30 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-08-14 22:40 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-14 23:20 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> - 2017-08-14 23:50 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-08-15 16:10 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-15 19:20 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-15 19:40 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-08-16 14:30 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-16 16:20 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 11:20 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki rhkramer@gmail.com - 2017-08-28 12:50 +0200
obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 08:20 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-15 00:20 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 11:50 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> - 2017-08-19 15:10 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 16:00 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 20:00 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-19 21:10 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> - 2017-08-19 21:30 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2017-08-21 15:10 +0200
Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> - 2017-08-21 16:30 +0200
obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-28 09:00 +0200
Re: no /etc/inittab Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> - 2017-08-19 10:40 +0200
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| From | David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-16 06:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: No ifconfig [Was: no /etc/inittab] |
| Message-ID | <ueYhz-2p6-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185322 |
On Tue 15 Aug 2017 at 21:49:31 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote: > On Tuesday 15 August 2017 15:28:32 David Wright wrote: > > > On Tue 15 Aug 2017 at 14:48:50 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote: > > > On Tuesday 15 August 2017 14:00:50 Brian wrote: > > > > On Tue 15 Aug 2017 at 13:46:20 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday 15 August 2017 13:07:38 David Wright wrote: > > > > > > On Tue 15 Aug 2017 at 11:23:41 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote: > > > > > > > On Tuesday 15 August 2017 07:33:53 Nicolas George wrote: > > > > > > > > L'octidi 28 thermidor, an CCXXV, Erik Christiansen a > écrit : > > > > > > > > > If it's no longer part of the base system, then perhaps > > > > > > > > > the system is too base? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please ellaborate. Why should ifconfig be part of the base > > > > > > > > system? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because ip is a pain in the ass to make it run, and still > > > > > > > gives grossly incomplete information? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In 2 years, I have yet to get a full network report out of > > > > > > > ip such as ifconfig gives. > > > > > > > > > > > > Does ip addr ; ip -s link not work for you? > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > David. > > > > > > > > > > It could I suppose, but thats also an extra 4" of useless fluff > > > > > on my high res screen. > > > > > > > > You really wanted to say "yes" to your problem of two years > > > > standing being solved, didn't you? But it goes against the grain. > > > > :) > > > > > > I would not go out on that limb and saw it off behind me, but if it > > > had more labels on the output, it could be helpfull. For instance > > > what does this line in its output for eth0 tell me, and where did it > > > get those numbers? > > > > > > inet6 fe80::21f:c6ff:fe62:fcbb/64 scope link > > > > > > Compared to the ifconfig eth0 output, that looks to be derived from > > > its MAC address, but how is such a determination thats its a > > > globally unique address determined? Anyone can cause a MAC address > > > to be spoofed. I am doing it myself so that I can change routers > > > without loseing my ipv4 address, registered at namecheap. > > > > That's the ip6 address I just mentioned, which I use to connect > > machines and short-circuit the wireless legs. As you have gathered, > > it's just "there" for you to use, eg > > > > scp -p <file> <yourusername>@[fe80::21f:c6ff:fe62:fcbb%eth0]:/tmp/ > > > It worked after suitable customizations, but that does seem to be a > needlessly complex bit of cli magic to remember with all the years on my > wet ram. Remember? No, I just edited a line out of one of my bash functions. For host foo, foo files… transfers files with scp to the same point in foo's filesystem tree; given no files, it logs in to foo via ssh instead; foo-tmp files… transfers files to foo's /tmp. All this by the normal ip4 route. 6foo… duplicates these functions but over the ip6 link by replacing the usual hostname as above. > > would transfer _to_ the machine mentioned above _from_ the > > connected machine's eth0. Another advantage is that you don't have > > to disturb your normal network configuration on a different > > interface (ie wlan0 in my case, but it could be another nic). Cheers, David.
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 21:30 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <uetdL-89B-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185165 |
On Mon 14 Aug 2017 at 20:54:24 +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote: > On 14.08.17 11:43, Pierre Frenkiel wrote: > > hi everybody, > > I discovered recently, after re-installing my system with the Debian 9.1 kde > > live dvd, that the /etc/inittab is no more present, although > > all the documentation I found still mentions it, For example, from the Debian wiki: > > > > The system initialization process is handled by the init daemon. > > The ?/etc/inittab configuration tells init what to do. Especially it contains the lines : > > > > Nevertheless, the boot seems to work corectly without it, and without /etc/init.d/rc. > > Does that means that the Debian wiki is out of date, or did I miss something? > > Yup, but it hasn't missed you. We no longer run Linux, but rather, Systemdix. > In Debian, systemd is inexorably replacing swathes of traditional *nix > functionality which we have over several decades learnt to use and rely > on. With Systemdix, we not only acquire a M$-style impenetrable > monolithic kitchen sink, but lose the interfaces with which we are > familiar. > > My Debian 7.8 machine still has /etc/inittab, but the new 9.0 machine > doesn't. AIUI, though, it is not necessary to go back to the old > versions, as it is possible to replace systemd in stretch with a sysv package. > In fact, the first hit for "debian stretch sysvinit" is "Debian Stretch > - Without Systemd" Jackpot! > > http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Debian_Stretch > > Now, if that brings back ifconfig as well, I won't have to rummage about > finding which package that might be in. > > It's fine to add new stuff to *nix, but the user interface for existing > stuff has to remain, or it's not worth a biscuit. (c.f. postfix, which > provides a sendmail-style interface for us old-timers.) We bet you feel a lot better after getting that of your chest. In a rather obtuse and log-winded way it seems you answered the OP's query and acknowledged the wiki gives out-dated advice; init on a standard system is systemd, not sysvinit. So - what should be done about the wiki? Surely, that is the thrust of the OP's question. Altering the wiki page is relatively straightforward. A single user (or group of users) trying to alter the init system policy is doomed to failure, no matter how vociferous they are. Many complain about documentation. When control of it is put in their hands they stand back and do nothing. Going for the "easy" targets is more compelling. -- Brian.
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| From | Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 22:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) |
| Message-ID | <ueujv-jF-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185210 |
Brian composed on 2017-08-14 20:22 (UTC+0100): > So - what should be done about the wiki? Surely, that is the thrust of > the OP's question. Altering the wiki page is relatively straightforward. > A single user (or group of users) trying to alter the init system policy > is doomed to failure, no matter how vociferous they are. > Many complain about documentation. When control of it is put in their > hands they stand back and do nothing. Going for the "easy" targets is > more compelling. The problem with software documentation wikis is the people in best position to know what they should contain have no incentive to do the update work. To write useful docs requires knowledge what should be in them. That knowledge is mostly possessed by those writing and changing code, those who /caused/ the need to update docs. What's needed is incentive for code creators to simultaneously document, with ample examples that man pages usually omit, even if it's only in formal, non-wikified docs that wikis can point to. Thus we see by their nature that wikis cannot be depended upon to be up to date. Most should be used as little more than a starting point from which to confirm elsewhere from whatever clues they provide. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 23:20 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) |
| Message-ID | <ueuWe-Mv-31@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185220 |
On Mon 14 Aug 2017 at 16:33:40 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: > Brian composed on 2017-08-14 20:22 (UTC+0100): > > > So - what should be done about the wiki? Surely, that is the thrust of > > the OP's question. Altering the wiki page is relatively straightforward. > > A single user (or group of users) trying to alter the init system policy > > is doomed to failure, no matter how vociferous they are. > > > Many complain about documentation. When control of it is put in their > > hands they stand back and do nothing. Going for the "easy" targets is > > more compelling. > > The problem with software documentation wikis is the people in best position to > know what they should contain have no incentive to do the update work. To write > useful docs requires knowledge what should be in them. That knowledge is mostly > possessed by those writing and changing code, those who /caused/ the need to > update docs. Knowledge is confined to those who know what they are doing? They are the ones in charge? It is not for us ordinary mortals to spread or interpret it? Some politians and priests are with you. Disseminating knowledge is only for the few. > What's needed is incentive for code creators to simultaneously document, with > ample examples that man pages usually omit, even if it's only in formal, > non-wikified docs that wikis can point to. It always looks good to place the responsibility on someone else. > Thus we see by their nature that wikis cannot be depended upon to be up to date. > Most should be used as little more than a starting point from which to confirm > elsewhere from whatever clues they provide. Wiki pages cannot be depended upon to be up-to-date when nobody does anything. I take it you are not up for altering the Init page? -- Brian. > -- > "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant > words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) > > Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! > > Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ >
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| From | Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-14 23:50 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki |
| Message-ID | <uevpf-XI-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185226 |
Brian composed on 2017-08-14 22:10 (UTC+0100): > I take it you are not up for altering the Init page? I looked in the thread and was unable to find that anyone had provided a URL for "the Init page". Without seeing the particular page in question I can't answer, but I'm guessing the answer would be I would feel I have too little competence to adequately address that particular subject, as with most wiki pages I find deficient. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
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| From | rhkramer@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-15 16:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki |
| Message-ID | <ueKHD-2hj-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185227 |
On Monday, August 14, 2017 05:39:40 PM Felix Miata wrote: > Brian composed on 2017-08-14 22:10 (UTC+0100): > > I take it you are not up for altering the Init page? > > I looked in the thread and was unable to find that anyone had provided a > URL for "the Init page". Without seeing the particular page in question I > can't answer, but I'm guessing the answer would be I would feel I have too > little competence to adequately address that particular subject, as with > most wiki pages I find deficient. Well, even a vague note on the page something like: "Some of this seems to be out of date with the advent of systemd and its adoption in Debian starting with version n.n (<Toy Story name>). If you can contribute anything more to this story, please do." ...would be a start.
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-15 19:20 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki |
| Message-ID | <ueNFv-48q-19@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185262 |
The wiki page is at https://wiki.debian.org/Init On Tue 15 Aug 2017 at 10:07:07 -0400, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote: > On Monday, August 14, 2017 05:39:40 PM Felix Miata wrote: > > Brian composed on 2017-08-14 22:10 (UTC+0100): > > > I take it you are not up for altering the Init page? > > > > I looked in the thread and was unable to find that anyone had provided a > > URL for "the Init page". Without seeing the particular page in question I > > can't answer, but I'm guessing the answer would be I would feel I have too > > little competence to adequately address that particular subject, as with > > most wiki pages I find deficient. > > Well, even a vague note on the page something like: > > "Some of this seems to be out of date with the advent of systemd and its > adoption in Debian starting with version n.n (<Toy Story name>). If you can > contribute anything more to this story, please do." > > > ...would be a start. A note is not a bad idea, but is the information on the page really outdated, or is it inappropriate because it does not reflect the reality in jessie and onwards? As I tried to say in another post in this thread, what should the page say and how should it be structured? What should be omitted and what be put in. What is the purpose of the page? Sorry if I gave the impression that Felix Miata should be personally responsible for any changes. The point I was trying to make was that someone (or a number of someones) has to do it. Take a look at the BootProcess page. The link is on the Init page; looking at that page in isolation only scratches the surface of the task. -- Brian.
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| From | Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-15 19:40 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki |
| Message-ID | <ueNYT-4hU-49@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185288 |
On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 06:09:54PM +0100, Brian wrote: > The wiki page is at https://wiki.debian.org/Init Thanks.
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| From | rhkramer@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-16 14:30 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki |
| Message-ID | <uf5Cr-70D-25@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185288 |
On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 01:09:54 PM Brian wrote: > The wiki page is at https://wiki.debian.org/Init > > On Tue 15 Aug 2017 at 10:07:07 -0400, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote: > > Well, even a vague note on the page something like: > > > > "Some of this seems to be out of date with the advent of systemd and its > > adoption in Debian starting with version n.n (<Toy Story name>). If you > > can contribute anything more to this story, please do." > > > > > > ...would be a start. > > A note is not a bad idea, but is the information on the page really > outdated, or is it inappropriate because it does not reflect the reality > in jessie and onwards? As I tried to say in another post in this thread, > what should the page say and how should it be structured? What should be > omitted and what be put in. What is the purpose of the page? > > Sorry if I gave the impression that Felix Miata should be personally > responsible for any changes. The point I was trying to make was that > someone (or a number of someones) has to do it. Take a look at the > BootProcess page. The link is on the Init page; looking at that page > in isolation only scratches the surface of the task. I was going to go to that page and add something like the note I mentioned, and then suggest that you (Brian) and others check out that page and make additional modifications as appropriate. But, on going to that page, I see that Greg Wooledge actually modified that page yesterday at 17:32 (don't know if that is UTC or something else). Thank you, Greg. The entry in the "change log" for his changes says: "discuss the alternative init systems a bit, and at least attempt to describe the current state of affairs" It looks good to me (;-) but I really know nothing about what is being discussed. I'd suggest others take a look, and make modifications / additions as appropriate. Thanks again to Greg who took the bull by the horns (and, asfaict, did not get gored).
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-16 16:20 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki |
| Message-ID | <uf7kR-87Z-13@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185348 |
On Wed 16 Aug 2017 at 08:28:57 -0400, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote: > On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 01:09:54 PM Brian wrote: > > The wiki page is at https://wiki.debian.org/Init > > > > On Tue 15 Aug 2017 at 10:07:07 -0400, rhkramer@gmail.com wrote: > > > > Well, even a vague note on the page something like: > > > > > > "Some of this seems to be out of date with the advent of systemd and its > > > adoption in Debian starting with version n.n (<Toy Story name>). If you > > > can contribute anything more to this story, please do." > > > > > > > > > ...would be a start. > > > > A note is not a bad idea, but is the information on the page really > > outdated, or is it inappropriate because it does not reflect the reality > > in jessie and onwards? As I tried to say in another post in this thread, > > what should the page say and how should it be structured? What should be > > omitted and what be put in. What is the purpose of the page? > > > > Sorry if I gave the impression that Felix Miata should be personally > > responsible for any changes. The point I was trying to make was that > > someone (or a number of someones) has to do it. Take a look at the > > BootProcess page. The link is on the Init page; looking at that page > > in isolation only scratches the surface of the task. > > I was going to go to that page and add something like the note I mentioned, > and then suggest that you (Brian) and others check out that page and make > additional modifications as appropriate. > > But, on going to that page, I see that Greg Wooledge actually modified that > page yesterday at 17:32 (don't know if that is UTC or something else). Thank > you, Greg. > > The entry in the "change log" for his changes says: > > "discuss the alternative init systems a bit, and at least attempt to describe > the current state of affairs" > > It looks good to me (;-) but I really know nothing about what is being > discussed. > > I'd suggest others take a look, and make modifications / additions as > appropriate. > > Thanks again to Greg who took the bull by the horns (and, asfaict, did not get > gored). Looks good to me too. Just a few small changes and additions (which hopefully polish it) made. -- Brian.
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| From | Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-28 11:20 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki |
| Message-ID | <ujon9-3MV-53@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185262 |
rhkramer@gmail.com: > Well, even a vague note on the page something like: > > "Some of this seems to be out of date with the advent of systemd and > its adoption in Debian starting with version n.n (<Toy Story name>). > If you can contribute anything more to this story, please do." > > ...would be a start. > That sort of editing, sticking little sentences in without regard to the article as a whole, or even the immediately surrounding paragraphs, is very prevalent at Wikipedia and is one of the major causes of pages degrading over time. It does not work well. https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/388427/ at Stack Exchange is an example of the effect of such things. The relevant wiki page was annotated with precisely that sort of thing, https://wiki.debian.org/motd?action=diff&rev1=15&rev2=16, placing a paragraph at the top that said that the rest of the page was out of date as of Debian 7. You can see from the Stack Exchange question the confusion that this causes for readers. Ironically, the wiki page answers the question in a single sentence. But the answer for what Debian does nowadays is buried for the reader under a morass of what Debian used to do, and did not get seen at all, resulting in the person coming to Stack Exchange in the first place.
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| From | rhkramer@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-28 12:50 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki |
| Message-ID | <ujpMe-4xh-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #186067 |
On Monday, August 28, 2017 04:55:11 AM Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote: > rhkramer@gmail.com: > > Well, even a vague note on the page something like: > > > > "Some of this seems to be out of date with the advent of systemd and > > its adoption in Debian starting with version n.n (<Toy Story name>). > > If you can contribute anything more to this story, please do." > > > > ...would be a start. > > That sort of editing, sticking little sentences in without regard to the > article as a whole, or even the immediately surrounding paragraphs, is > very prevalent at Wikipedia and is one of the major causes of pages > degrading over time. It does not work well. Do you have an alternate suggestion / solution? More specifically, say for someone not (well-)versed in the subject matter of the page, who comes to the page, reads it, then attempts to use the information contained in the page but it doesn't work for him (for reasons which he believes to be related to wrong / outdated information on the page, what would you suggest he do? Nothing? Leave the same pitfall for the next reader, or At least warn that "there be dragons here"? Ideally if that person (or some other future reader of the warning about dragons) learns a little bit more, (ideally) that person would add the additional information he learns. But, what would you suggest he do?
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| From | Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-28 08:20 +0200 |
| Subject | obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) |
| Message-ID | <ujlyW-1YD-9@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185226 |
Felix Miata: > The problem with software documentation wikis is the people in best > position to know what they should contain have no incentive to do the > update work. To write useful docs requires knowledge what should be in > them. That knowledge is mostly possessed by those writing and changing > code, those who /caused/ the need to update docs. > Brian: > > Knowledge is confined to those who know what they are doing? They are > the ones in charge? It is not for us ordinary mortals to spread or > interpret it? Some politians and priests are with you. Disseminating > knowledge is only for the few. > That is a straw man, and very clearly (to at least this reader) not what M. Miata wrote at all.
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| From | Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-15 00:20 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki (was: no /etc/inittab) |
| Message-ID | <uevSh-1ms-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185220 |
On Monday 14 August 2017 16:33:40 Felix Miata wrote: > Brian composed on 2017-08-14 20:22 (UTC+0100): > > So - what should be done about the wiki? Surely, that is the thrust > > of the OP's question. Altering the wiki page is relatively > > straightforward. A single user (or group of users) trying to alter > > the init system policy is doomed to failure, no matter how > > vociferous they are. > > > > Many complain about documentation. When control of it is put in > > their hands they stand back and do nothing. Going for the "easy" > > targets is more compelling. > > The problem with software documentation wikis is the people in best > position to know what they should contain have no incentive to do the > update work. To write useful docs requires knowledge what should be in > them. That knowledge is mostly possessed by those writing and changing > code, those who /caused/ the need to update docs. > > What's needed is incentive for code creators to simultaneously > document, with ample examples that man pages usually omit, even if > it's only in formal, non-wikified docs that wikis can point to. > > Thus we see by their nature that wikis cannot be depended upon to be > up to date. Most should be used as little more than a starting point > from which to confirm elsewhere from whatever clues they provide. +100 Felix. Its pure dark green stuff on the ground behind the male bovine, chasing links all over the planet, which might have a hint about what to fix for an update that broke the whole installs gui's 2 weeks ago. It should be an iron-clad rule that a developer submitting his itch scratcher code to a distribution must be subscribed to that distributions user list BEFORE he can commit. Thats the only way the person responsible for the breakage will ever get any feedback in a reasonable time frame. Doable, yes. Unintended consequences? Very Probably. But my guess is short term. In 6 months, back to normal if not better. An ex mother-in-law of mine from 60 years back up the log had a saying I have remembered all these years. "They have the same clothes to get glad in that they got mad in" :) Cheers, Gene Heskett -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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| From | Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-19 11:50 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) |
| Message-ID | <ug8ye-85i-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185228 |
Felix Miata: > What's needed is incentive for code creators to simultaneously > document, with ample examples that man pages usually omit, even if > it's only in formal, non-wikified docs that wikis can point to. > Gene Heskett: > It should be an iron-clad rule that a developer submitting his itch > scratcher code to a distribution must be subscribed to that > distributions user list BEFORE he can commit. > That does not work and does not scale. What would work is what M. Miata said, which is to inculcate in software developers a culture of always providing doco with the software, and regarding the job as not complete unless there is doco. That said, an obscure page (which people even in this thread were hard pressed to find) on someone else's wiki does not really count. Furthermore: In this *particular* regard, the developer-provided doco actually *is* clear. The upstart manual page for inittab has been warning that the file is obsolete for over ten years, and that manual page is copied all over the WWW making it fairly easy to come across. (Examples: https://linux.die.net/man/5/inittab https://askubuntu.com/questions/34308/ https://serverfault.com/questions/147430/ http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/precise/man5/inittab.5.html) The systemd people have not explicitly documented inittab, as the upstart people did, although they have explicitly documented run levels as "obsolete" in the systemd manual page for runlevel. This, too, has been copied around the WWW, albeit somewhat less. (Examples: https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/systemd-sysv/runlevel.8.en.html http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/runlevel.8.html https://www.mankier.com/8/runlevel) I for one have been attempting spreading the word about inittab, too. * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/inittab-is-history.html * http://jdebp.eu./Softwares/nosh/guide/introduction.html * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/248313/5132 * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/196197/5132 * https://askubuntu.com/a/834323/43344 * http://jdebp.eu./Softwares/nosh/guide/runlevel.html In this particular case, one cannot really level the charge of developers not documenting this. It is amply documented, by developers of multiple projects, in their manual pages in their handbooks/guides and on their WWW sites, for over a decade. The deficiencies of Debian's own wiki cannot legitimately be laid at the feet of the developers of the various softwares. One such developer even tried to donate to you an update to the Debian Policy Manual that explained both /etc/inittab (in section 9.3.4) and the changes that arrived in 2014, to replace your woefully outdated one: * http://jdebp.eu./Proposals/DebianPolicy/
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| From | Pierre Frenkiel <pierre.frenkiel@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-19 15:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) |
| Message-ID | <ugbFL-1Jv-11@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185484 |
On Sat, 19 Aug 2017, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:
> The systemd people have not explicitly documented inittab, as the upstart
> people did, although they have explicitly documented run levels as "obsolete"
> in the systemd manual page for runlevel. This, too, has been copied around the
> WWW, albeit somewhat less. (Examples:
> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/systemd-sysv/runlevel.8.en.html
on Stretch, you have the same content with "man runlevel" (with a better
table rendering)
As to inittab, I tried "man inittab", which gave me "no manual entry..."
but after
MANPATH="$MANPATH:/usr/share/man/fr/
I got the inittab manual in french, which describes the Unix SysV startup
It is in the package manpages-fr-extra, whose version is 20151231...
I wonder why it is still available in the Stretch repository
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| From | Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-19 16:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) |
| Message-ID | <ugcs9-1Zv-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185484 |
On Saturday 19 August 2017 05:32:25 Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote: > Felix Miata: > > What's needed is incentive for code creators to simultaneously > > document, with ample examples that man pages usually omit, even if > > it's only in formal, non-wikified docs that wikis can point to. That would be fine if the README had those links in it, but how to enforce it? > > Gene Heskett: > > It should be an iron-clad rule that a developer submitting his itch > > scratcher code to a distribution must be subscribed to that > > distributions user list BEFORE he can commit. > > That does not work and does not scale. Scale? How many active developers would that involve? Surely the mailing list machines capacity can't be a problem. I don't really care if the developer never replies, but he should be at least reading it to collect the users of his code flowers for a job well done and bricks thrown when its a screwed up mess only he knows how to make work.. > What would work is what M. > Miata said, which is to inculcate in software developers a culture of > always providing doco with the software, and regarding the job as not > complete unless there is doco. I agree, but how to enforce it? > > That said, an obscure page (which people even in this thread were hard > pressed to find) on someone else's wiki does not really count. Nope. The link and paths to the doco must be complete enough a google search can find it, in the top page of the search results. > Furthermore: In this *particular* regard, the developer-provided doco > actually *is* clear. The upstart manual page for inittab has been > warning that the file is obsolete for over ten years, and that manual > page is copied all over the WWW making it fairly easy to come across. > (Examples: https://linux.die.net/man/5/inittab > https://askubuntu.com/questions/34308/ > https://serverfault.com/questions/147430/ > http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/precise/man5/inittab.5.html) Its becoming obsolete is NOT mentioned in my wheezy approved and supplied man page for it, I just read it this instant. So if you call it widely publicized it fails that definition AFAIAC. > > The systemd people have not explicitly documented inittab, as the > upstart people did, although they have explicitly documented run > levels as "obsolete" in the systemd manual page for runlevel. This, > too, has been copied around the WWW, albeit somewhat less. (Examples: > https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/systemd-sysv/runlevel.8.en.html > http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/runlevel.8.html > https://www.mankier.com/8/runlevel) > I have only one machine with a new enough install, jessie, to have a some of systemd, so I am still learning. Fortunately when I screw up, it tries to educate me, but the wet ram is A: north of 80 yo, and B: not yet "in the habit" since the rest of my stuff is running wheezy. > I for one have been attempting spreading the word about inittab, too. > > * http://jdebp.eu./FGA/inittab-is-history.html > > * http://jdebp.eu./Softwares/nosh/guide/introduction.html > > * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/248313/5132 > > * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/196197/5132 > > * https://askubuntu.com/a/834323/43344 > > * http://jdebp.eu./Softwares/nosh/guide/runlevel.html > > In this particular case, one cannot really level the charge of > developers not documenting this. It is amply documented, by > developers of multiple projects, in their manual pages in their > handbooks/guides and on their WWW sites, for over a decade. The > deficiencies of Debian's own wiki cannot legitimately be laid at the > feet of the developers of the various softwares. > > One such developer even tried to donate to you an update to the Debian > Policy Manual that explained both /etc/inittab (in section 9.3.4) and > the changes that arrived in 2014, to replace your woefully outdated > one: I'm assuming the "you" above is aimed at debian as I do not recall it otherwise. > * http://jdebp.eu./Proposals/DebianPolicy/ Which again, is a link I've just now become aware of. I am for it of course but it has that unmistakable odor of the N.I.H. syndrome on the part of Debian. Is the bug machine the proper place to open some windows and let that odor dissipate? Thanks Jonathan. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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| From | Jonathan de Boyne Pollard <J.deBoynePollard-newsgroups@NTLWorld.COM> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-19 20:00 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) |
| Message-ID | <uggcp-4iI-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185495 |
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard: > Furthermore: In this *particular* regard, the developer-provided doco > actually *is* clear. The upstart manual page for inittab has been > warning that the file is obsolete for over ten years, and that manual > page is copied all over the WWW making it fairly easy to come across. > (Examples: https://linux.die.net/man/5/inittab > https://askubuntu.com/questions/34308/ > https://serverfault.com/questions/147430/ > http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/precise/man5/inittab.5.html) > > The systemd people have not explicitly documented inittab, as the > upstart people did, although they have explicitly documented run > levels as "obsolete" in the systemd manual page for runlevel. This, > too, has been copied around the WWW, albeit somewhat less. (Examples: > https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/systemd-sysv/runlevel.8.en.html > http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/runlevel.8.html > https://www.mankier.com/8/runlevel) > Gene Heskett: > Its becoming obsolete is NOT mentioned in my wheezy approved and > supplied man page for it, I just read it this instant. So if you call > it widely publicized it fails that definition AFAIAC. > Debian 7 has those very manual pages: * https://manpages.debian.org/wheezy/upstart/inittab.5.en.html * https://manpages.debian.org/wheezy/systemd-sysv/runlevel.8.en.html
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| From | Gene Heskett <gheskett@shentel.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-19 21:10 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) |
| Message-ID | <ughia-5br-7@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185509 |
On Saturday 19 August 2017 13:35:09 Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:
> Jonathan de Boyne Pollard:
> > Furthermore: In this *particular* regard, the developer-provided
> > doco actually *is* clear. The upstart manual page for inittab has
> > been warning that the file is obsolete for over ten years, and that
> > manual page is copied all over the WWW making it fairly easy to come
> > across. (Examples: https://linux.die.net/man/5/inittab
> > https://askubuntu.com/questions/34308/
> > https://serverfault.com/questions/147430/
> > http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/precise/man5/inittab.5.html)
> >
> > The systemd people have not explicitly documented inittab, as the
> > upstart people did, although they have explicitly documented run
> > levels as "obsolete" in the systemd manual page for runlevel. This,
> > too, has been copied around the WWW, albeit somewhat less.
> > (Examples:
> > https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/systemd-sysv/runlevel.8.en.html
> > http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man8/runlevel.8.html
> > https://www.mankier.com/8/runlevel)
>
> Gene Heskett:
> > Its becoming obsolete is NOT mentioned in my wheezy approved and
> > supplied man page for it, I just read it this instant. So if you
> > call it widely publicized it fails that definition AFAIAC.
>
> Debian 7 has those very manual pages:
>
>
> * https://manpages.debian.org/wheezy/upstart/inittab.5.en.html
It does? Consider this, from a man 5 inittab, on this wheezy machine:
INITTAB(5) Linux System Administrator's Manual INITTAB(5)
NAME
inittab - format of the inittab file used by the sysv-compatible init process
DESCRIPTION
The inittab file describes which processes are started at bootup and during normal operation (e.g. /etc/init.d/boot,
/etc/init.d/rc, gettys...). Init(8) distinguishes multiple runlevels, each of which can have its own set of processes that
are started. Valid runlevels are 0-6 plus A, B, and C for ondemand entries. An entry in the inittab file has the follow‐
ing format:
id:runlevels:action:process
Lines beginning with `#' are ignored.
id is a unique sequence of 1-4 characters which identifies an entry in inittab (for versions of sysvinit compiled with
the old libc5 (< 5.2.18) or a.out libraries the limit is 2 characters).
Note: traditionally, for getty and other login processes, the value of the id field is kept the same as the suffix
of the corresponding tty, e.g. 1 for tty1. Some ancient login accounting programs might expect this, though I can't
think of any.
runlevels
lists the runlevels for which the specified action should be taken.
action describes which action should be taken.
process
specifies the process to be executed. If the process field starts with a `+' character, init will not do utmp and
wtmp accounting for that process. This is needed for gettys that insist on doing their own utmp/wtmp housekeeping.
This is also a historic bug.
The runlevels field may contain multiple characters for different runlevels. For example, 123 specifies that the process
should be started in runlevels 1, 2, and 3. The runlevels for ondemand entries may contain an A, B, or C. The runlevels
field of sysinit, boot, and bootwait entries are ignored.
When the system runlevel is changed, any running processes that are not specified for the new runlevel are killed, first
with SIGTERM, then with SIGKILL.
Valid actions for the action field are:
respawn
The process will be restarted whenever it terminates (e.g. getty).
wait The process will be started once when the specified runlevel is entered and init will wait for its termination.
once The process will be executed once when the specified runlevel is entered.
boot The process will be executed during system boot. The runlevels field is ignored.
bootwait
The process will be executed during system boot, while init waits for its termination (e.g. /etc/rc). The runlevels
field is ignored.
off This does nothing.
ondemand
A process marked with an ondemand runlevel will be executed whenever the specified ondemand runlevel is called.
However, no runlevel change will occur (ondemand runlevels are `a', `b', and `c').
initdefault
An initdefault entry specifies the runlevel which should be entered after system boot. If none exists, init will
ask for a runlevel on the console. The process field is ignored.
sysinit
The process will be executed during system boot. It will be executed before any boot or bootwait entries. The run‐
levels field is ignored.
powerwait
The process will be executed when the power goes down. Init is usually informed about this by a process talking to a
UPS connected to the computer. Init will wait for the process to finish before continuing.
powerfail
As for powerwait, except that init does not wait for the process's completion.
powerokwait
This process will be executed as soon as init is informed that the power has been restored.
powerfailnow
This process will be executed when init is told that the battery of the external UPS is almost empty and the power
is failing (provided that the external UPS and the monitoring process are able to detect this condition).
ctrlaltdel
The process will be executed when init receives the SIGINT signal. This means that someone on the system console
has pressed the CTRL-ALT-DEL key combination. Typically one wants to execute some sort of shutdown either to get
into single-user level or to reboot the machine.
kbrequest
The process will be executed when init receives a signal from the keyboard handler that a special key combination
was pressed on the console keyboard.
The documentation for this function is not complete yet; more documentation can be found in the kbd-x.xx packages
(most recent was kbd-0.94 at the time of this writing). Basically you want to map some keyboard combination to the
"KeyboardSignal" action. For example, to map Alt-Uparrow for this purpose use the following in your keymaps file:
alt keycode 103 = KeyboardSignal
EXAMPLES
This is an example of a inittab which resembles the old Linux inittab:
# inittab for linux
id:1:initdefault:
rc::bootwait:/etc/rc
1:1:respawn:/etc/getty 9600 tty1
2:1:respawn:/etc/getty 9600 tty2
3:1:respawn:/etc/getty 9600 tty3
4:1:respawn:/etc/getty 9600 tty4
This inittab file executes /etc/rc during boot and starts gettys on tty1-tty4.
A more elaborate inittab with different runlevels (see the comments inside):
# Level to run in
id:2:initdefault:
# Boot-time system configuration/initialization script.
si::sysinit:/etc/init.d/rcS
# What to do in single-user mode.
~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin
# /etc/init.d executes the S and K scripts upon change
# of runlevel.
#
# Runlevel 0 is halt.
# Runlevel 1 is single-user.
# Runlevels 2-5 are multi-user.
# Runlevel 6 is reboot.
l0:0:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 0
l1:1:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 1
l2:2:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 2
l3:3:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 3
l4:4:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 4
l5:5:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 5
l6:6:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 6
# What to do at the "3 finger salute".
ca::ctrlaltdel:/sbin/shutdown -t1 -h now
# Runlevel 2,3: getty on virtual consoles
# Runlevel 3: getty on terminal (ttyS0) and modem (ttyS1)
1:23:respawn:/sbin/getty tty1 VC linux
2:23:respawn:/sbin/getty tty2 VC linux
3:23:respawn:/sbin/getty tty3 VC linux
4:23:respawn:/sbin/getty tty4 VC linux
S0:3:respawn:/sbin/getty -L 9600 ttyS0 vt320
S1:3:respawn:/sbin/mgetty -x0 -D ttyS1
FILES
/etc/inittab
AUTHOR
Init was written by Miquel van Smoorenburg (miquels@cistron.nl). This manual page was written by Sebastian Lederer (led‐
erer@francium.informatik.uni-bonn.de) and modified by Michael Haardt (u31b3hs@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de).
SEE ALSO
init(8), telinit(8)
Dec 4, 2001 INITTAB(5)
===========================================
> * https://manpages.debian.org/wheezy/systemd-sysv/runlevel.8.en.html
Which is even older with a 1997 origin date.
I won't waste the bandwidth by copy/pasteing that one too, but I think I
might have made the point, the point being that those of us still on
wheezy because its generally dead stable, have had zero introduction
to these new methods. So please quit assuming we know all about them.
We don't. If indeed they aren't applicable to wheezy, then it does put
another point on the argument that our docs are incomplete and/or out
of date.
So we've come full circle I believe.
Have a nice day Jonathan.
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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| From | Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-08-19 21:30 +0200 |
| Subject | Re: obsolete wiki (no /etc/inittab) |
| Message-ID | <ughBv-5hL-15@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| In reply to | #185515 |
On Sat 19 Aug 2017 at 15:05:51 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: [Lots and lots of brutal snipping] > =========================================== > > > * https://manpages.debian.org/wheezy/systemd-sysv/runlevel.8.en.html > > Which is even older with a 1997 origin date. > > I won't waste the bandwidth by copy/pasteing that one too, but I think I > might have made the point, the point being that those of us still on > wheezy because its generally dead stable, have had zero introduction > to these new methods. So please quit assuming we know all about them. We are stuck in the Dark Ages. Do not presume we want to leave them and explore the New Land. > We don't. If indeed they aren't applicable to wheezy, then it does put > another point on the argument that our docs are incomplete and/or out > of date. We are happy in our ignorance. > So we've come full circle I believe. Not really. The starting point has not been left. -- Brian.
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